PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Xyzz]

x is probably harder than shine OOS needs to be, because the a-button is really getting in your way. With y you can just slide from that to b, which works out fairly well for most people I think (including me, and I'm a slow old man :D).

 

[BTmoney]

Most people use Y and down B but that doesn't really make a big difference. That being said I don't know why you wouldn't jump with Y since it's closer to B. (Maybe X makes other things easier? Like a shine->nair(?) idk why that's so much harder to do perfectly than a shine->bair for me lol)

You can also jump OOS by pushing up, then holding down and pushing B to shine.
You can also, also, buffer a jump OOS with the C-stick. Same motion as jump OOS with the control stick. I do every aerial OOS with the C-stick. Shinining after a C-stick jump is an awkward motion that I don't ever do (since I can shine OOS well with Y) but it's not hard. And yeah if you can't get it grounded then you either are doing it too fast (no shine comes out) or too slow which is more likely. It's nice to be able to grounded shine on demand but most people are usually slightly off the ground when they do their shines OOS. Try doing it faster or using Y. It's strange when you first start but it's easy!

 

[Bones0]

YouTube videos only play at 30 fps, so some things may seem faster than they actually are.

I shine OoS with L -> Y -> Down+B. I highly recommend switching to Y for jumping if you aren't too used to X to change. It helps to use Y because it's closer and you can slide your thumb from Y to B without having to worry about pressing A by accident (which would cause you to grab if you are trying to shine OoS).

 

[PCwizCube]

Ohh most people use Y to jump? I've always used X - that's just the way I've learned it. I might try to change to Y or maybe experiment with the c-stick OOS buffer. I don't main spacies though so it isn't a big deal. But thanks everyone!

 

[noobird]

For shine nair use z instead of a and you won't have any issues. For shine oos... i've taken to using c-stick if i plan on shine bairing oos so i don't drop any frames. But for grounded shine oos c-stick is not practical because you would have to know which frame you're actually going to be able to jump on lol so I use y for that.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-should-i-use-x-or-y-to-do-______-thread.226469/

On an actual Falco note, how often do you guys go relatively far off stage to edgeguard characters? Usually if it's not a match where I'm pwning super hard, the most I'll do is set up a simple back air off stage, but otherwise be content with on stage edgeguards or covering the ledge.

However, I think in many specific situations, it can be good or even optimal to go off with nair/dair. It's just a matter of which situations and vs which characters.

 

[Bones0]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-should-i-use-x-or-y-to-do-______-thread.226469/

Yeah, but that thread's from '09. Melee's X vs. Y matchup has changed a lot since then. It's been increasingly in favor of Y. It's basically a 90-10 matchup at this point. X is awful.

#YbuttonMasterRace

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

someone explain when x wud ever be favorable and how did this debate come up

y is always the most comfortable and fastest so if your an x fan boy learn to use y

 

[Mogwai]

using X is totally fine. certain techniques are considerably harder to perform using X, but you can just train your muscle memory for them using Y without changing your primary jump button (i.e. I use Y to ledgehop double laser and double shine, Up on control stick to jc grab/usmash, and X for pretty much everything else).

 

[Xyzz]

I sorta do the same... up on controlstick is so amazing for shine > bair or lhdl (i probably wouldn't recommend the later :D)

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

you have to use control stick for shine bair and i also use it for jc grab and upsmash because it's a fluid motion

 

[BTmoney]

I JC with and shine OOS with Y

@rocket? Is that Dyna Blade from Kirkby lol?

 

[oukd]

no its just a birdon

i vary between y, tap, and cstick (for oos sometimes)
i used to use x but slowly just stopped for some reason

 

[BTmoney]

Whoops, I feel stupid lol. I'm the biggest Kirby fan in existence (thus the name and signature)

Edit: it looks like a chibi Dyna Blade, which makes sense

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Whoops, I feel stupid lol. I'm the biggest Kirby fan in existence (thus the name and signature)

Edit: it looks like a chibi Dyna Blade, which makes sense

lol
this is my ***** from superstar, its birdon ? right?
i forget his name but dynablade is badass and i might have to make him my avatar.

edit: wait tachi, are you a female smasher?
i just thought ado was a boy my entire life until i checked today cuz i wasnt sure and now my childhood is ruined. Guess ill #blameitonsakurai for not making it clear

 

[Bones0]

lol
this is my ***** from superstar, its birdon ? right?
i forget his name but dynablade is badass and i might have to make him my avatar.

edit: wait tachi, are you a female smasher?
i just thought ado was a boy my entire life until i checked today cuz i wasnt sure and now my childhood is ruined. Guess ill #blameitonsakurai for not making it clear

You know those two kids from Little Rascals that sing "I gotta dollar"? I thought the black kid was a girl until like a year ago.

My childhood was turned upside down...

 

[BTmoney]

edit: wait tachi, are you a female smasher?
i just thought ado was a boy my entire life until i checked today cuz i wasnt sure and now my childhood is ruined. Guess ill #blameitonsakurai for not making it clear

Nah dude lmao. I thought Ado was a boy too until like 2 months ago (LOL when did Kirby 64 come out? And I think there's a conversation on my wall/page regarding my name) but she's so cool, my favourite character from the series anyways.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

ah true lol but can anyone tell me if armadas a girl or not, since ive never heard it's voice b4 and by the looks of it shes a girl

 

[Purpletuce]

^A case where common sense should indicate not to post. He is obviously a boy, and you shouldn't publicly post something like that, because in either outcome it is insulting. Seriously. . .

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

im one of the biggest armada fans out there and i told him in the skype call. i guess people on the boards just dont enjoy my posts so i guess i ll just stop posting and enjoy people in person rather than here.
Heat 4-3 GGs

 

[noobird]

lmao missed the point entirely

 

[KP17]

the falco boards make me sad.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-should-i-use-x-or-y-to-do-______-thread.226469/

On an actual Falco note, how often do you guys go relatively far off stage to edgeguard characters? Usually if it's not a match where I'm pwning super hard, the most I'll do is set up a simple back air off stage, but otherwise be content with on stage edgeguards or covering the ledge.

However, I think in many specific situations, it can be good or even optimal to go off with nair/dair. It's just a matter of which situations and vs which characters.

stab, sometimes I wonder whether it's worth going far off stage because if the edge guard is not successful you get in a really bad position.
vs spacies, if they are recovering high, a full hop near the ledge and offstage by a 1-2 falco lengths is pretty useful. Being close to horizontal to a space animal when they are recovering is good bc you can cover side b. (You most definitely already know this, but I'm just sayin.) Going farther out, e.g., to the point where recovering requires firebird to the ledge, should be used intelligently. As long as you are aware that a mistake = a stock, go for it. That being said, I throw in full hops with aerial movement off stage > react, with further options being: blocking a side b w/ an aerial, lasering, falling > dj back to stage > react, shine stall > react, or even fast fall > shine stall > shine turnaround> backair or sweetspot ledge >react. Edgeguarding is so situational vs spacies (bc so many options), and being able to react and predict well often can be the turning point in this matchup. Look at any top level (and close) space animal match for proof.
Vs ganon, falcon, the marios, and ic's its very rewarding to close space when they are recovering from above and away from the stage. Bc these characters's recoveries are predictable, you can pretty much jump out there and dair/bair where you expect them to go. You can also straight up aerial through many char's recovering projectiles too, so that's pretty useful.
it's difficult to define exact locations where what option is the best as far as edgeguarding bc its more difficult to gauge aerial distance than ground distance, esp as a fast faller who has poor aerial mobility (at least for me right now).

Edgeguarding is one of my biggest weaknesses so this post was as much for my own sake as it was a response to your question. Even if this post doesn't make sense to you stab, I'd like to move the discussion towards edgeguarding. id rather not see any more posts about x vs y

 

[Bones0]

I think that the higher they are, the more often I tend to jump out to intercept (with dair most of the time ofc). If they're low, it seems dumb to do anything other than invinc LH attacks that they simply can't avoid if you do it properly.

 

[BTmoney]

I think that the higher they are, the more often I tend to jump out to intercept (with dair most of the time ofc). If they're low, it seems dumb to do anything other than invinc LH attacks that they simply can't avoid if you do it properly.

That or shine turnaround dair, which I still am a massive proponent of. It works in similar situations and has a huge window to execute once you get the opponent very slightly above stage level to anywhere below.

I will stand by this though: shine turnaround dair makes it so that you should never, ever, ever drop an edge guard once fox has to recover, preferably firefox, at stage level (or slightly above). It even works vs. side B but I haven't delved too deep into all the possible outcomes yet. I just know it's good, it works, and there is probably someone else who can communicate this better.

 

[Bones0]

That or shine turnaround dair, which I still am a massive proponent of. It works in similar situations and has a huge window to execute once you get the opponent very slightly above stage level to anywhere below.

I will stand by this though: shine turnaround dair makes it so that you should never, ever, ever drop an edge guard once fox has to recover, preferably firefox, at stage level (or slightly above). It even works vs. side B but I haven't delved too deep into all the possible outcomes yet. I just know it's good, it works, and there is probably someone else who can communicate this better.

Yeah, I was including shine turnaround dair in that category since it's essentially still a LH attack. The only problem with saying you should never drop an edgeguard because of it is that you can't always get off stage and at the right shine stalling positioning before the opponent is able to recover or get close enough to you to attack. Spacie edgeguards require such nuanced option coverage that it's pretty hard to describe what any given situation calls for.

 

[Purpletuce]

Any time they're above the ledge? What if they go over you, under you or shine stall. Definitely not a guaranteed edgeguard every time.

 

[genkaku]

purpletuce, I watched some of your matches and was impressed. Keep it up, man.

 

[Purpletuce]

Thanks, I'm trying. When I read that I had to check if I was in Yoshi boards, very unexpected.

 

[Vixen]

good stuff.

 

[unknown522]

some falco in doubles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iR8CfoAhx0#t=5m02s

disregard the commentary

 

[Bones0]

some falco in doubles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iR8CfoAhx0#t=5m02s

disregard the commentary

While I remember, do you have any Training Mode combo percents or anything saved? I know you like to mess around with that stuff, and I've been compiling combo percentages for stuff like uthrow uair so if you have anything it could save me some time.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

dude falco is a beast in teams, i think falco fox is the best team by far but other teams like fox jigs is rediculous

 

[Bones0]

Someone give me tips vs. Falcon or in general?

Bones (Falco) vs. ThumbsWayUp (Captain Falcon)

 

[BTmoney]

Someone give me tips vs. Falcon or in general?

Bones (Falco) vs. ThumbsWayUp (Captain Falcon)

Not sure how helpful I can be. I feel the MU is almost free. The other player has to be significantly better than me (Oro!?) for me to lose to a Falcon. I've won so many games against people that are better players that try Falcon vs my Falco lol, I'm not bragging I just legitimately feel that it's among the worst relevant MUs in the game. Falcon has to play perfectly, make some good guesses, and consistently convert for him to win. When you get your techs guessed then the MU seems hard or not so free because you just died at 70% but really that shouldn't be happening that often.

Your goal in this MU is to make this entirely unplayable. Spamming high lasers stops his DD and SHFFL which is just about all he wants to do. Hiding behind lasers in this MU is more effective than usual. You can't play footsies with Falcon as Falco, you'll lose that unless you are just the better player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZn7EZmBskg
Take note of how PP controlled him.

I personally think shield pressure is a tad nonsensical (as a whole) in this MU. If you feel the need to pressure him because you want to wager safe play vs immediate gratification/big opening then (IMO) cross him up or only pressure when behind him to take shield grab out of the picture.
Otherwise I say just shine grab uthrow (and mix in aerial->shine->early aerial fadeaway if you want) and try to combo off that or throw him off stage when you can. This is also a MU where shine turnaround dair abolustely poops on the opposition. The extra horizontal range (vs. invincible dair) off stage helps you out, and it auto cancels when you land on stage so if you do mess it up, you can dsmash the ledge or do whatever to Falcon in lag onstage. But try out shine turnaround dair. The faster you shine (as in the less you drop down from the ledge) and jump the more space your dair takes up. It's good because you take away the ledge from Falcon which is always the first step, you stop the option of fading back on to the ledge, and you stop his medium height upB. If he goes high, punish the lag.
4:29 and 4:34 in your vid are the situations I am talking about where shine turnaround dair poops on Falcon.

*alternative viewpoint*

More on my logic of shine->grabbing. Best case scenario is you get a substantial combo off of it. Worst case you don't get your follow up but you just go back to neutral where you beat him thoroughly anyway. And you take no damage.

Weigh that now versus shield pressure (infront of him). Best case scenario is you shield stab/they attempt an OOS option and you hit a dair or shine. You get an admittedly better and easier combo when compared to the best case scenario of shine->grab->uthrow. Worst case scenario is you are pressuring and you grabbed (or dair'd) and then who knows what can happen. When you go for extended pressure, you just made the MU playable. You gave Falcon options.

If you cross it up then this becomes a tad different but right now I'm in the camp of never giving him a good chance to punish you.

Other thoughts:
You get tech read so hard dude lol!
This MU becomes weird when Falcon wants to straight up platform camp and run away since he his much much faster than you. But I've yet to come across anyone willing to do that.

edit:
thoughts?

 

[FrootLoop]

Game 1
you were hitting his shield but not covering oos which is actually the point
first combo you get you do for this weird bair instead of shine waveland. you gotta rack up more dmg before sending off to edgeguard since he got free recovery this time.
1:10 you just let him out for free with dash attack, then do a bad double jump. It doesn't threaten anything, gives up laser, and lets him out maneuver you for free with his ground speed.
more hitting shield but not converting/covering escapes or counterattacks. This is recurring too, basically make him fear the grab THEN start catching escape attempts. This happens through the set
bad fsmashes, this one was horrible even though it killed, you do some more later that are bad. Only combo into it or for guaranteed edgeguards
1:41 bad jump, obvious from the fact that you hit but couldn't convert and put yourself way at the edge. These bad jumps are recurring.
2:33 alright you got a combo. Should have baired or something instead of going for upB. It doesn't even work if they DI away and even though it did work it didn't send anywhere. Bair would setup ez edgeguard.
3:02 after the nair it should have been clear that dsmash is too low. utilt makes much more sense

the other drops seemed more tech skill related, STOP MESSING UP TECH SKILL EVER ITS 2013

Game 2
you start by double jumping, giving up the fight for the middle and let him out-move you again. You don't have to predict double jump attacks or something, they should be easy to spot coming. Also, even if you were going to do that, laser is hardly a punish since you would both land even. You do this again later
3:56 I assume you wanted dash jump but STOP MESSING IT UP
4:15 you side B right at him yet again, but he messes up and gives you a combo. Probably short hop reverse bair instead of full jump would have been more likely to convert, but the real problem is the flail down air to try to force it. Even if it hit it wouldn't have killed, and you gave him the kill instead of getting one yourself. Dropping kills is a super big deal since it's a 2 stock swing. You should have seen that it wouldn't work and just held him in crap position by the ledge until he died.
Another weird dash attack in here somewhere. It's a solid combo move but super punishable & ccable in neutral.
Drop like 3 easy edgeguards
5:00 you try to wavedash into shine in neutral which is whack. It's your smallest + shortest move, use it's strengths for conversions and combos, but not here.
dropped another edgeguard
one last fsmash in neutral to seal the deal

TLDR
Hit all tech skill
Hit all tech skill
For neutral focus on controlling him over starting up your death combo. Otherwise you're just flailing and get picked off easy like in this set. Mostly that means more lasers, removing double jumps/fsmash/dash attack.
Converting with grab is nice
Stop dropping stuff, watch PP convert on falcons and copy
Also watch PP neutral on falcons and copy
Hit all tech skill

edit:
also you got super outplayed on defense lol

 

[Vixen]

I haven't owned a cube or melee since 2011, and haven't practiced since koc1. Am I allowed to miss tech skill?

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[FrootLoop]

not if you want to win your tournament matches

 

[Bones0]

Thanks a TON, Ado and FrootLoop. All of that advice made a lot of sense, so I'm eager to play a Falcon at the next tournament so I can implement this stuff. I think a lot of the problems you pointed out also apply to my other matchups, so hopefully I can see improvement across the board. Some of the stuff I do is so random and dumb, idk where it comes from half the time...

Does anyone have any specific ways of punishing OoS options? I feel like I'm decent enough at catching rolls when I expect them and space accordingly, but attacks OoS tend to either wreck me or I'm unable to get a solid punish (stuff like FH stomp OoS).

 

[FrootLoop]

grab/lasergrab/shinegrab, work on converting throws into winning positions. Once he decides your grabs are deadly enough he'll start to do evasion oos premptively to avoid them which should be easy to start chasing and keep him in the crummy position he deserves for getting locked down.

sitting on shields with pillar doesn't do anything except give you chances to mess up and get killed and give him time to look for good spots to oos.

umbreon's been through this a million times
1) use lasers to cut off choices until he's locked down.
-you don't really laser much and try to play your options vs his options which is way more fair than you want it to be.
2) convert to advantage through essentially unblockable stuff like shinegrab
-you are looking for the superpunish with a clean dair/shine which isn't very guaranteed comparatively unless they go for blind shield grabs or such. You don't have to convert into a 500% combo for the position to be winning.
3) hold your advantage until he dies.
-you overextended a bunch which gave up your grip on the situation. Dash -> aerial at him when he's pinned at the ledge gives an out, etc

 

[Bones0]

grab/lasergrab/shinegrab, work on converting throws into winning positions. Once he decides your grabs are deadly enough he'll start to do evasion oos premptively to avoid them which should be easy to start chasing and keep him in the crummy position he deserves for getting locked down.

sitting on shields with pillar doesn't do anything except give you chances to mess up and get killed and give him time to look for good spots to oos.

umbreon's been through this a million times
1) use lasers to cut off choices until he's locked down.
-you don't really laser much and try to play your options vs his options which is way more fair than you want it to be.
2) convert to advantage through essentially unblockable stuff like shinegrab
-you are looking for the superpunish with a clean dair/shine which isn't very guaranteed comparatively unless they go for blind shield grabs or such. You don't have to convert into a 500% combo for the position to be winning.
3) hold your advantage until he dies.
-you overextended a bunch which gave up your grip on the situation. Dash -> aerial at him when he's pinned at the ledge gives an out, etc

You should poast moar often bro. You clarify things really well.