PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Purpletuce]

Well, in regards to the dozen or so posts about buffering jump, I feel like everyone who is discussing it knows exactly what happens when you buffer, as well when you can input a follow-up, etc.

At this point we can all just acknowledge that no matter what happens, Bones will think he is right, I still won't be able to jump out of shield, and Mizuki will begin to main Yoshi, because if he can react to a jumpsquat, he could just parry nearly every move in the game on reaction, making him the best player in the world.

On to something worth talking about. . . shield drop shine. Is the extra speed advantage(as compared to shine oos) worth the extra difficulty in execution? Can people do it consistently enough that they can reliably waveland/dash onto the platform afterward? All in all, is it worthwhile? (Looking at you, Bones).

Not really the place for this, but would anybody like to speculate about the uses of Fox's shield drop shine?

 

[oukd]

with certain controllers, shielddrop shine is easier to pull off than shine oos. also you'll reland on the platform anyways if you do it fast enough, but it takes some time. even then, you can do a pretty easy and fast waveland out of it - works if you've fallen through too

ive been doing it a lot and its pretty sweet. i'd suggest it if you find it easier to execute, but i wouldnt say you should do it for the few extra earlier frames...but it does help on occasion

downside is that its easier to shine oos out of a tilted shield than it is to shielddrop shine out of a tilted shield

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

reacting (and not predicting) to something in 5-7 frames would put mean your reaction time is about 1/10th of a second. the average reaction time seems to be about 2/10ths of a second (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php).

some researchers at U michigan determined that it was highly unlikely that an olympic athlete had a reaction time of 1/10th of a second or faster. (http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/8629).

so i think that reacting in 5 frames might be on the very edge of whats possible. I think its more likely that people just learn the timing for the buffered jump/ dair. you couldn't learn a timing for spot dodging grab though so if taj can really do it then thats pretty interesting..

 

[Xyzz]

@Reaction time: Some google search revealed that the world of sprinting even DQs people for starting earlier than 1/10th of a second after the gunshot (and that's audio clue (which is practically always faster than visual cues) and a natural reaction (start running, instead of pressing some button, so it's probably faster as well. Although I'm speculating here, it sounds pretty reasonable).

@Reacting to grabs: Maybe Taj is reacting to people moving into the range of grab and then dodging, which is easily possible. Or he's pulling someone's leg by telling fairy tales, which from what I gather might be something he could do, since he seems a really fun guy :D

@Topic: Bones IS right, garharghargharghjagrgasfg :D

 

[Bones0]

An easy way to prove you can react within 5 frames is just to have someone keep their controller out of your field of vision and jump with Falco after random increments of time. If you are as good as you say you are, you should be able to pause before they leave the ground. Just thinking about the prospect of someone doing that makes me lol. Whatever, I'm done trying to convince people. If you rely on buffering to get quick OoS options, you've been warned.

Well, in regards to the dozen or so posts about buffering jump, I feel like everyone who is discussing it knows exactly what happens when you buffer, as well when you can input a follow-up, etc.

At this point we can all just acknowledge that no matter what happens, Bones will think he is right, I still won't be able to jump out of shield, and Mizuki will begin to main Yoshi, because if he can react to a jumpsquat, he could just parry nearly every move in the game on reaction, making him the best player in the world.

On to something worth talking about. . . shield drop shine. Is the extra speed advantage(as compared to shine oos) worth the extra difficulty in execution? Can people do it consistently enough that they can reliably waveland/dash onto the platform afterward? All in all, is it worthwhile? (Looking at you, Bones).

Not really the place for this, but would anybody like to speculate about the uses of Fox's shield drop shine?

It's definitely worth it with Falco. I'm still working on being able to shineland out of it so I don't have to DJ when JCing the shine. For now, I usually just DJ, immediately WL straight down onto the plat, and try to follow up as best as I can. It's not unlike missing a grounded shine OoS in terms of followups, but the extra speeding in getting the shine out is pretty helpful.

The thing about Fox's shine drop is that you really don't gain much. Shine is only coming out frame 2 instead of frame 4, and you give up your ability to easily waveshine out of it. Even if you can shine drop and shineland onto the the plat, it takes a few extra frames for you to actually land in the shine, at which point you might as well have done a regular grounded shine OoS and waveshined from there.

So in summary, definitely use it with Falco, but be careful of his awful shine range and know your personal limitations concerning shine landing after or whether you will have to DJ WL (still worth it if it means more guaranteed successful shines OoS). With Fox, don't even bother unless you're going for something super tight like in between a Marth/Falcon-like nair with two hits. Not being able to waveshine out properly greatly reduces what you can follow up with unlike Falco's.

 

[Purpletuce]

Waveland straight down seemed easiest for me as well, because I'd still get a decent chance for follow ups even if I missed some of the timing.

Shining between hits in a nair sounds super funny. I'll try that. . .

 

[Vixen]

Purpletuce, would you quit calling me a he?

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Purpletuce]

I suck, my bad. It is almost reflex to assume smashers are guys. (At least online)

 

[Vixen]

I usually shield drop to shine, then waveland in place. It's swag.

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

safe falco is best falco

 

[Vixen]

swagfalco.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

swag falco - lasers the best, makes ballziest reads, doesnt care about SDs or diving of stage for edgeguards
gay falco - usually runs away from pressure, practices safe approaches, is over protective of his stocks, cares more about the money than the fans

 

[Vixen]

Swag Falco wins forever.

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[whitemountain123]

anyone have any advice for the falco ditto? specifically what to do when the other falco is more technical/faster? i feel like i don't have a good grasp of general strategy for the matchup

 

[genkaku]

try keep yourself in a better position to lock the other falco down from neutral
land a shine and extend the **** as far as possible
I just focus on those two overarching things.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

whoever lasers better is a big factor in who wins the falco ditto
and whoever punishes harder will also be very apparent
but i feel like using plats for camping and opportunities for uair/shine/dair/nair whatever is really safe
falco ditto is the embodiment of lightning melee

 

[Strong Badam]

swag falco - lasers the best, makes ballziest reads, doesnt care about SDs or diving of stage for edgeguards
gay falco - usually runs away from pressure, practices safe approaches, is over protective of his stocks, cares more about the money than the fans

wouldn't the "gay falco" be the one that lasers the best?

 

[BTmoney]

wouldn't the "gay falco" be the one that lasers the best?

the gay falco is also a hipster (because he's gay) and doesn't shoot lasers

 

[Purpletuce]

I've noticed that usually, Falco can wreck Falco. Falco usually will land a hit on the other Falco if he is in the advantageous position, so maintaining your good position is very valuable. Often, Falcos will overextend a combo, and give the momentum away to their opponent, for no reason.

The most extreme examples of this are when a Falco run of the stage for a Dair, misses, and then the other falco can Dair them. Smaller examples might be you have them pinned, and recklessly throw out a F-smash, to have them shine/dair oos.

 

[Vixen]

Falco is a 120/120.

 

[Kadano]

i used to spot dodge grabs, but playing against people like gg7 who fake the grab to knee got me ***** so much in 09/2010 that i stopped spot dodging on purpose entirely. >_>

Edit*

But yeah, I used to/probably could still spot dodge the grabs on reaction.

Taj does when he plays spacies.

That makes no sense at all. If you could really spot dodge grabs on reaction, faking them out would not affect you. You’re merely predicting his grab. Captain Falcon’s grab is visually distinguishable from his wait animation only from frame 2 onward, so to truly spot dodge on reaction, your reaction time needs to be 4 frames or less. Like Bones and Xyzz pointed out, that’s completely out of the question.

 

[KP17]

yeah you stupid idiot

 

[Vixen]

Is there a reason you feel compelled to insult me, KP?

 

[Krynxe]

Please don't blow this out of proportion and just calm down, people

 

[Kadano]

I just wanted to clarify that this is not possible. There is so much wrong information running around, I really don’t want that spotdodge-grab-on-reaction rumor to catch on. No offense to Mizuki.

Also, KP17’s post felt rather sarcastic to me (as in “this really isn’t so important you need to state it all over again”).

 

[Vixen]

There was no need to post at all.

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Xyzz]

Please don't blow this out of proportion and just calm down, people

Meanieface... Now I made popcorn for nothing

 

[Vixen]

Yay let's rag on me for being stupid.
Sooooo much fun. =/

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[choknater]

y'all ready for evo?!

been taking them mental notes on ic's vs falco..

mogwai is in my pool!

 

[KP17]

im sorry mizuki i was just messing with you.

lets talk about approaching sheik? anybody?

 

[choknater]

mmm it doesn't seem too hard to approach her with falco

the main thing to watch out for is her nair out of shield, and avoiding her fair in general

 

[Vixen]

Let her commit to a more.

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[Bones0]

im sorry mizuki i was just messing with you.

lets talk about approaching sheik? anybody?

If you aerial, it had better be late, spaced deep enough that your shine will hit, and you need to shinegrab if you can't hitconfirm the aerial or shine. You have to shinegrab REALLY fast vs. Sheik because she jumps so fast that her hurtbox leaves your grab's range really quickly. Other alternatives are to overshoot and land behind her (if she's not facing you, don't overshoot obviously), and from there you can shield in case of any nairs OoS or dash away to avoid them and dash back towards them with an aerial or (shine)grab if they didn't commit to anything yet. Aerial shining and trying to do another aerial-shine iteration is pretty bad because she can quickly WD OoS and just grab you in your landing lag, and at higher percents she will just nair OoS and kill you.

I think lasers are the weakest part of my approach game atm. If anyone wants to chip in on how to really abuse lasers to get openings, that'd be helpful. Any ideas at all, really. Doesn't have to be anything profound.

 

[Vixen]

One thing to mention is also that one of the best ways to approach sheik is not to be in the air.

 

[Swann]

Yeah, even in my severely limited experience with that matchup I've noticed that approaching sheik from the air is typically a bad idea. While it's on people's minds, I'd love a quick breakdown of things I should focus on/mindset versus sheik. If it's not too much trouble.

 

[Apasher]

How consistent is Falco compared to Fox? I'm considering switching mains.

 

[Deleted member]

How consistent is Falco compared to Fox? I'm considering switching mains.

it's not fox, it's you. regardless of who you're playing, you should work out your own inconsistency rather than attributing a play weakness falsely.

 

[Vixen]

i find it easier to be consistent with the bird.

 

[Divinokage]

it's not fox, it's you. regardless of who you're playing, you should work out your own inconsistency rather than attributing a play weakness falsely.

Perhaps but some players play better by choosing a character that suits their own style.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

alot of people like foxs movement and yea

anyone wanna tell me when to buffer ****, do people shine out of shield from a buffered jump
little stuff like spot dodging, and buffering, and shielding, are things that i know are good but dont do alot, as i know its bad to do any of these habits alot
which is good that i play hella clean

lets say a fox is drill shining on my shield, if i buffer roll or jump, do i get shined, is there timing, i dont understand