PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[PaperstSoapCo]

Where is this happening? I want a MM with westballz too. $20 best of 5 Ganon vs Falco.

 

[BTmoney]

Just gonna say that reputation/popularity should not mean whether someone's word is taken at face value.

Facts should come before anything else.

True, but whoever the man was, he said "Kage is the worst."
That is enough to get discredited.

If west were to win, it would seriously be because his character is dramatically better than Kage's.
What exactly does Ganon have on falco?
No disrespect intended. But just look at how Kage has placed playing Ganon, you can't deny that.

Edit:
@MountainGoat he did say something like that, not sure how seriously he meant it though

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

What exactly does Ganon have on falco?

Range and priority on some moves. IMO I believe its pretty even if the Ganon is capable of applying pressure without failing to punish techs.

Lose to westballz kage so I can get my MM. ALAKA!

 

[The Business]

True, but whoever the man was, he said "Kage is the worst."
That is enough to get discredited.

If west were to win, it would seriously be because his character is dramatically better than Kage's.
What exactly does Ganon have on falco?
No disrespect intended. But just look at how Kage has placed playing Ganon, you can't deny that.

Edit:
@MountainGoat he did say something like that, not sure how seriously he meant it though

So if wes wins then his char is better and if kage wins he's a way better player

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Bones0]

#evidence.zip

 

[BTmoney]

Range and priority on some moves. IMO I believe its pretty even if the Ganon is capable of applying pressure without failing to punish techs.

Lose to westballz kage so I can get my MM. ALAKA!

I think it's far from even. Falco beats Falcon badly and Ganon does not have any advantages over Falcon other than being able to wizard's foot to recover in more situations than Falcon can falcon kick. You could argue his fair is better in neutral than Falcon's nair if you want but Ganon's cons do not make it an even MU or comparable to how Falcon (which is a horrible MU already) deals with Falco. There are little no to situations in which Ganon has an advantage or performs as well as falco in an advantageous position.

Neutral:
Falco can nair/bair/dair/laser. All quick, safe and combo into other things
Ganon has fair which is great but slow and his only real option that gets compounded by his not so great dash dance and foxtrot
Ganon is large, large in this game is bad (it doesn't make or break a character but it is not a desirable trait)
Ganon can get great combo potentional off of dair but dair requires a read or must be combo'd in to
Falco's dair is much safer, better, and he can combo off of it better. They can kill off of it equally well.
One thing that Fox, Marth, Sheik and Falcon can abuse against falco is superior ground speed. Ganon is even slower than Falco.
Ganon does have better grabs though imo.


Edge guarding:
Falco is harder to edge guard than Ganon due to the fact that he has mix ups, a monster second jump height and can recover high better than Ganon.
They are both still very gimpable and guardable.

OoS:
Falco can nair/bair/dair/shine. Especially shine which are all great for him.
Ganon can dair? But that requires the opponent being slow or doing something wrong. No real OoS game as far as I know.

From the ledge:
Falco can perform rising lasers/aerials into a combo or whatever
Ganon has no real option other than waveland onto stage

From Advantageous positions (i.e. a combo):
Falco combos Ganon harder and safer
Ganon can still definitely kill falco, he just has less options and setups
Ganon cannot get Falco off of him (some chars can nair OoS or shine w/e)


I brought up Falcon just for the sake of comparison since I think that that is obviously a bad MU for Falcon so it's far from even as Ganon.
You can quantify MUs by looking at different aspects specific to each character vs character.

So if wes wins then his char is better and if kage wins he's a way better player

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Essentially, as inconceivable as that sounds. Look at how strong Kage has placed. It is clear he is the better player or at least has proven himself in a superior fashion, no offensive to Westballz.

 

[Metal Reeper]

That's the first good post I've seen in awhile. Especially considering the join date.
There is hope.

 

[BTmoney]

That's the first good post I've seen in awhile. Especially considering the join date.
There is hope.

Mmmm, sig worthy.
I've been watching melee a lot longer than I been playing and I'm still relatively bad. But I'm not stupid, I hope. Lol.

edit:
Unrelated,
And now that I think about it, how do you have quotes in your sig? I had one before the update but now I guess you can't use the quote code in a signature

 

[Bones0]

I think it's far from even. Falco beats Falcon badly and Ganon does not have any advantages over Falcon other than being able to wizard's foot to recover in more situations than Falcon can falcon kick. You could argue his fair is better in neutral than Falcon's nair if you want but Ganon's cons do not make it an even MU or comparable to how Falcon (which is a horrible MU already) deals with Falco. There are little no to situations in which Ganon has an advantage or performs as well as falco in an advantageous position.

Neutral:
Falco can nair/bair/dair/laser. All quick, safe and combo into other things
Ganon has fair which is great but slow and his only real option that gets compounded by his not so great dash dance and foxtrot
Ganon is large, large in this game is bad (it doesn't make or break a character but it is not a desirable trait)
Ganon can get great combo potentional off of dair but dair requires a read or must be combo'd in to
Falco's dair is much safer, better, and he can combo off of it better. They can kill off of it equally well.
One thing that Fox, Marth, Sheik and Falcon can abuse against falco is superior ground speed. Ganon is even slower than Falco.
Ganon does have better grabs though imo.


Edge guarding:
Falco is harder to edge guard than Ganon due to the fact that he has mix ups, a monster second jump height and can recover high better than Ganon.
They are both still very gimpable and guardable.

OoS:
Falco can nair/bair/dair/shine. Especially shine which are all great for him.
Ganon can dair? But that requires the opponent being slow or doing something wrong. No real OoS game as far as I know.

From the ledge:
Falco can perform rising lasers/aerials into a combo or whatever
Ganon has no real option other than waveland onto stage

From Advantageous positions (i.e. a combo):
Falco combos Ganon harder and safer
Ganon can still definitely kill falco, he just has less options and setups
Ganon cannot get Falco off of him (some chars can nair OoS or shine w/e)


I brought up Falcon just for the sake of comparison since I think that that is obviously a bad MU for Falcon so it's far from even as Ganon.
You can quantify MUs by looking at different aspects specific to each character vs character.


Essentially, as inconceivable as that sounds. Look at how strong Kage has placed. It is clear he is the better player or at least has proven himself in a superior fashion, no offensive to Westballz.

- Falco doesn't beat Falcon that badly. Sure, it's a good matchup, but it's not like it'd be impossible for the best player to be a Falcon main because he would lose to Falco players constantly or something.

- Ganon has a lot of good stuff that Falcon doesn't have... like A LOT. I shouldn't really even have to go into it. Just watch any Ganon vid and ask yourself if Falcon could have done the same thing with the same effectiveness.

- "Falco can nair/bair/dair/laser. All quick, safe and combo into other things" Nair isn't particularly safe (pretty bad priority), and lasers have massive startup, and they rarely directly combo into anything.

- "Ganon is large, large in this game is bad (it doesn't make or break a character but it is not a desirable trait)" Having a large hurtbox is obviously bad, but when it comes with weight and power like Ganon's, it's a damn good tradeoff. If someone offered to give me Ganon's weight with Falco in exchange for a Ganon-sized hurtbox, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

- "Ganon can get great combo potentional off of dair but dair requires a read or must be combo'd in to" How is that any different from Falco's dair (or any other move in the game)?

- I agree Ganon not having speed to abuse vs. Falco like other characters is a setback, but just because they are both slow as **** doesn't mean it becomes a landslide for Falco or anything.

- I think you're underplaying how important throws are. They are really friggin' good, and when you have Ganon's strength vs. Falco's fragility, throws are borderline auto-stocks.

- I agree with the edgeguarding stuff except that Falco definitely can't recover high well at all, especially if we're talking about Falco vs. Ganon specifically. I think Ganon is much more likely to make it back by recovering high than Falco is (who will simply get uaired back off stage).

- Falco can't really use any of those OoS options to any great use vs. Ganon. I occasionally dair/bair when I know I can hit them, but nairing gets you nothing even if it hits (not to mention you'll probably trade and die), and shines will just never connect because virtually all of Ganon's moves knock you too far away for shine OoS's ****ty range to actually help.

- Ganon's OoS game is amazing. He can FH dair with a lot of safety. He can SH uair and it comes out really low and quick. Bair is also quick, as well as being way stronger than Falco's. Most importantly, they all have range and trade threat. Ganon doesn't have to worry about trading with Falco's OoS options, but even when Falco is doing the shield pressuring, he has to worry A LOT about Ganon's OoS options.

- LHDL and aerials from the ledge are both awful options vs. Ganon because, like the theme has been with above areas, one trade spells doom. Sure, a LH dair will lead into a shine and combo, but if the Ganon is any good they will just cover your LH options by throwing out a bair/uair/tilt. They both have to ledgedash, and Ganon's seems significantly safer (if for no other reason than that Ganon's a fatty).

- I think your whole premise that you can compare characters side-by-side and get a good idea of who is better is pretty flawed. It completely ignores the relative importance of each area. It doesn't matter if character A is better than character B in 95% of the game if the other 5% is what makes the difference between a character winning and losing. For Falco vs. Ganon, the areas you seem to be ignoring (or simply ignorant of) are:
1. If Ganon trades all day, he will come out on top.
2. Ganon's throw options and guaranteed punishes out of said throws are amazing.
3. Falco's throw options on Ganon are lackluster.

- Even if I agreed with all of your points that Falco is vastly superior to Ganon, that doesn't at all mean that Kage is proving himself to be better. Firstly, you have to consider that using weaker characters comes with advantages as well as disadvantages. Your character may be weaker overall, but if you have much more matchup experience vs. nearly every opponent, wouldn't that more than make up for what your character lacks? Secondly, you have to include character choice as part of a player's skill. Someone who chooses a bad character can't blame losses on their character any more than someone who intentionally makes poor moves choices can blame their losses on their move choices ("I did as good as so-and-so, and I don't even abuse the same tactics that they do!").

And now that I think about it, how do you have quotes in your sig? I had one before the update but now I guess you can't use the quote code in a signature

I couldn't get it to work. MR still has quotes from before the update. You can tell because it still has the post ID# after the poster's name.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Ganons OOS game and tilts is what makes this match up possible, his edge guarding makes it close to even. WD OOS changes the spacing and falcos jump is the same timing as ganons so SH uair can hit a mis-spaced falco (OOS aswell) while the falco is standing on the ground. The relevance to the same jump speed to this match up being even is OOS ganon has a poke, a retreat and a reverse grab with upB that has crazy range. Ganons ftilt trades and sometimes beats sh aerials. If falco tries to jump over a tilt his huge jumps give ganon time to retreat or attack after a whiffed full jump/double jump.

Ganon can verse falco its just gonna look one sided if he isnt consistent with his punishes.

 

[Bones0]

I think the deceptive thing about Falco is that almost all of his matchups look one-sided for the majority of the match. Falco's constantly throwing out lasers and doing all this neat shield pressure so it seems like Falco is broken, but then people forget that during all that time he's accomplished virtually nothing, and then he gets touched by one move, tossed like a salad for 5 seconds, and loses a stock.

 

[WestBallz]

Something West has never done and never will.

Rofl noob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoK9JoW-FcQ

jeeze kage you just keep getting dumber and dumber with every post

 

[Purpletuce]

Whenever I play as/against Falco I feel like Falco should always win every MU and every game, until they mess up. Especially against characters like Gannnnnon, where it just feels like the neutral game is 100% free, and openings and Falco easy-mode combos are brainless. By that standard, who wins the MU is determined by how hard the other guy punishes the mistakes, how well they trick you into making them, and how often you make them. Falco is silly.

 

[Divinokage]

Rofl noob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoK9JoW-FcQ

jeeze kage you just keep getting dumber and dumber with every post

Ya but you didnt steal the crown, that's what I mean.. too late for you to do that! I've got an achievement no one else in the world can get. You'd have to beat Armada but.. looks like thats not gonna happen now. =P

 

[R3N0]

I'M SO MAD I AM LATE TO THIS PARTY!

KAGE vs WESTBALLZ $100 USD MM?!!??!?!

FALCO DITTOs!??!!?!?


THE POP OFFS!!!!

i'm so excited, this was quite exciting. Also I think Kage is in the top 20 of people. but everyone from top 8 down can go back and forth between everyone imo.

 

[ElloEddy]

I think the deceptive thing about Falco is that almost all of his matchups look one-sided for the majority of the match. Falco's constantly throwing out lasers and doing all this neat shield pressure so it seems like Falco is broken, but then people forget that during all that time he's accomplished virtually nothing, and then he gets touched by one move, tossed like a salad for 5 seconds, and loses a stock.

amen lol ..thats why i hate when ppl think falco is so good .usually ppl who dont main him...takes you 30 hits to kill someone and you die in 3

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

watching wes is ****ing amazing, he does his own style of combos and i bust a nut every set i see his falco ******
good stuff, yea i hope axe goes all falco in a tournament soon to see how he fairs, rofl (see what i did there)
if ur gonna money match kage u might as well make it a $200mm cuz that way we can get hype
bo7 first to 2 sets

 

[White_Mike]

West Coast hates Kage ever since he **** on Mango

 

[michael_li]

your all scrubs. i bet i can **** most of you except westballz and kage. see yall goofs at evo
ask me anything and i can answer it cuz ive been in THIS SITUATION BEFORE!

 

[L__]

$$$$$$$$ on wes

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't see how dair out of shield is a legitimate option for Ganon against any Falco with a brain. But I don't play this character, so I dunno. Probably.

 

[BTmoney]

- Falco doesn't beat Falcon that badly. Sure, it's a good matchup, but it's not like it'd be impossible for the best player to be a Falcon main because he would lose to Falco players constantly or something.

Disagree completely, Falco is likely his worst MU

- Ganon has a lot of good stuff that Falcon doesn't have... like A LOT. I shouldn't really even have to go into it. Just watch any Ganon vid and ask yourself if Falcon could have done the same thing with the same effectiveness.

Ganon has dash attack out of necessity , dtilt out of necessity, and uair which I didn't give enough credit before. I watched more gameplay (as I always do before I post something meaningful) and uair is a good tool that Ganon can utilize in ways Falcon can't. That's it though, this dash attack and dtilt are still Falcon-like maybe slightly better but are more importantly unsafe and he is much more dependent on them. Ganon also likes grabs but he has to guess sometimes like Falcon for follow ups and he has a much harder time getting them than Falcon.

- "Falco can nair/bair/dair/laser. All quick, safe and combo into other things" Nair isn't particularly safe (pretty bad priority), and lasers have massive startup, and they rarely directly combo into anything.

That's why you space your lasers and do it with temperance. You can do things like laser grab, laser->follow up, gimp with lasers, harass, stop approaches etc. everything that makes lasers the best projectile in the game and all kinds of stuff. Nair isn't even Falco's best aerial but it does definitely work. However you're the more experienced player and I don't see what the problem with his nair is. I imagine his nair is comparable to Fox's. Which is great. You don't throw it out attempting to trade or anything. Ganon can also flat out get laser camped which Falco normally doesn't have the luxury of doing.

- "Ganon is large, large in this game is bad (it doesn't make or break a character but it is not a desirable trait)" Having a large hurtbox is obviously bad, but when it comes with weight and power like Ganon's, it's a damn good tradeoff. If someone offered to give me Ganon's weight with Falco in exchange for a Ganon-sized hurtbox, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Falco might be the #1 character in the game to abuse large hurtboxes with the way he combos and the size of his shine. This is subjective but I think so.

- "Ganon can get great combo potentional off of dair but dair requires a read or must be combo'd in to" How is that any different from Falco's dair (or any other move in the game)?

Watch Falco gameplay (or play your falco lol) and count how many dairs are thrown out. Count how many are not punished on whiff. Then count how many Ganon can get out and count when his gets punished. Also Ganon's dair isn't the safest thing in the world. Look at the difference in combo starters.

- I agree Ganon not having speed to abuse vs. Falco like other characters is a setback, but just because they are both slow as **** doesn't mean it becomes a landslide for Falco or anything.

Yeah it's not a massive problem, just one of many imo

- I think you're underplaying how important throws are. They are really friggin' good, and when you have Ganon's strength vs. Falco's fragility, throws are borderline auto-stocks.

I believe that only Fox (if you want to CG) and Marth have that potential to grab->death Falco. Ganon gets good things off of grabs but do you think it's better than what Falcon gets off of grabs? Ganon has to guess a lot too after grabs (what I picked up from watching a lot of Kage and specifically watching more for this post.)

- I agree with the edgeguarding stuff except that Falco definitely can't recover high well at all, especially if we're talking about Falco vs. Ganon specifically. I think Ganon is much more likely to make it back by recovering high than Falco is (who will simply get uaired back off stage).

Well, Falco can grab the ledge and get rising bairs all day. He can also face him up and gimp with lasers to close out with a dair. Or he can grab the ledge. Make Ganon recover high/onto stage then shine combo for an indiscriminate amount of time lol. Falco can only recover high because he has options. He has the illusion that can be shortened, full illusion (space animals get more ledge cancels now than they did in the past) and firebird has multiple angles which makes it a guessing game. All options be covered (I'm pretty sure) but it takes immaculate positioning which you MAY not always have time to set up every edge guard attempt along with good reaction time.

- Falco can't really use any of those OoS options to any great use vs. Ganon. I occasionally dair/bair when I know I can hit them, but nairing gets you nothing even if it hits (not to mention you'll probably trade and die), and shines will just never connect because virtually all of Ganon's moves knock you too far away for shine OoS's ****ty range to actually help.

Nair wasn't the point. Wd OoS is better for Falco as well than it is for Ganon. The only thing Ganon has after a Wd OoS is jab, ftilt, and maybe a grab. All of which are not bad (I already expanded on his grabs) but knock falco down or away (correct me if I'm wrong about ftilt) and doesn't give you anything comparable to when Falco hits you with an OoS option.


- Ganon's OoS game is amazing. He can FH dair with a lot of safety. He can SH uair and it comes out really low and quick. Bair is also quick, as well as being way stronger than Falco's. Most importantly, they all have range and trade threat. Ganon doesn't have to worry about trading with Falco's OoS options, but even when Falco is doing the shield pressuring, he has to worry A LOT about Ganon's OoS options.

Does anyone get hit by dair OoS actually? Maybe if Falco up smashes his shield lol. But you can tell me otherwise. I find it hard enough to guarantee dairs OoS as Falcon who can get his dair out quicker (keep in mind jump squat as well). When I do it as fast as I can as Falcon it usually gets powershield'ed unless they went for something stupid and laggy on shield. I have never seen a nair OoS versus Falco. That is because Ganon's nair OoS takes a whopping 14 frames when done frame perfect (airborne on frame 7 of jump squat) and I suppose the frame data backs up that on being an illegitimate option. Most shield pressure options are in-between 1(shine being outlier) and 4-8 frames. 14 is very bad. Dropping shield and jabbing might be faster than going for a nair.

- LHDL and aerials from the ledge are both awful options vs. Ganon because, like the theme has been with above areas, one trade spells doom. Sure, a LH dair will lead into a shine and combo, but if the Ganon is any good they will just cover your LH options by throwing out a bair/uair/tilt. They both have to ledgedash, and Ganon's seems significantly safer (if for no other reason than that Ganon's a fatty).

I can give you this. Falco definitely has more options but I suppose they aren't necessarily safe or good, just more.

- I think your whole premise that you can compare characters side-by-side and get a good idea of who is better is pretty flawed. It completely ignores the relative importance of each area. It doesn't matter if character A is better than character B in 95% of the game if the other 5% is what makes the difference between a character winning and losing. For Falco vs. Ganon, the areas you seem to be ignoring (or simply ignorant of) are:
1. If Ganon trades all day, he will come out on top.
That is implying that he has the ability to put himself in a situation to trade "all day" which he does not at all.
2. Ganon's throw options and guaranteed punishes out of said throws are amazing.
I am inclined to believe otherwise after once again watching more of Kage play space animals specifically for this post. Ganon gets good stuff but not anything ridiculous.
3. Falco's throw options on Ganon are lackluster.
Why does Falco need to throw him?

Orange part:
That is where you really lost me. How else do you? There are only so many aspect in this game. You can gauge levels of safety, ability in the neutral game, quality of options, ease of edge guarding, combo potentionlal, and kill ability. You can also use frame data and hard numbers to determine what does and does not work by comparing a character in a specific situation to other characters in similar situations.

You can break down each component of the game (ledge options, stuff mentioned before, OoS game etc.) and literally weight them and determine who can win more effectively. That is essentially what I did without any numbers.

- Even if I agreed with all of your points that Falco is vastly superior to Ganon, that doesn't at all mean that Kage is proving himself to be better. Firstly, you have to consider that using weaker characters comes with advantages as well as disadvantages. Your character may be weaker overall, but if you have much more matchup experience vs. nearly every opponent, wouldn't that more than make up for what your character lacks?
The amount to which that helps is impossible to determine. But I guarantee you it is not enough for Ganon to cover his weaknesses which are evident and plentiful. Give it a game at the slowest. And more than make up for? I think not. It's not like it's PM sonic or something jank like that. Bad characters are bad because they are unsafe or have comparatively lower quality options (or they are under metagamed but that is not the case with Ganon).

Secondly, you have to include character choice as part of a player's skill. Someone who chooses a bad character can't blame losses on their character any more than someone who intentionally makes poor moves choices can blame their losses on their move choices ("I did as good as so-and-so, and I don't even abuse the same tactics that they do!").
But they can. Character selection =/= skill. Bad characters simply drag good players down. While good characters can cover holes in bad players' games. It may not be ethically correct and frowned upon to blame a loss on a bad character but it certainly makes sense logically.

Good talk though, you made me think.
I am very surprised you feel that way though, being a good Falco player.

amen lol ..thats why i hate when ppl think falco is so good .usually ppl who dont main him...takes you 30 hits to kill someone and you die in 3

???????
Maybe in some parallel universe where it is some how hard to combo as Falco, combo power is somehow a bad trait, and Falco cannot DI. Falco is the best or second best character in the game. Vetted opinions and results back that up. If you think he isn't so good then you're doing it wrong lol.

 

[pokemongeof]

Now I have decided to use Falco as a Secondary, but I just need to improve!

 

[Warhawk]

I believe that only Fox (if you want to CG) and Marth have that potential to grab->death Falco. Ganon gets good things off of grabs but do you think it's better than what Falcon gets off of grabs? Ganon has to guess a lot too after grabs (what I picked up from watching a lot of Kage and specifically watching more for this post.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsNbCkzRF-s

Its hard as hell, but possible. Besides that though, I think Ganon does better than you give him credit for, especially in your side-by-side analysis with Falcon. The matchup is not that much worse for Ganon than it is Falcon, if at all and its do-able for Falcon (though its still hard for both).

 

[Zoler]

Just because it's possible (any matchup is possible with enough skill difference) to win with falcon or ganon doesn't make the matchups vs falco any less bull****. With equal skill and matchup experience, falco will in most cases destroy ganon. Falcon too, not as hard, but it's definitely falcons hardest matchup along with fox.

 

[BTmoney]

That CG looks nasty. I've never seen more than a few regrabs

I think the deceptive thing about Falco is that almost all of his matchups look one-sided for the majority of the match. Falco's constantly throwing out lasers and doing all this neat shield pressure so it seems like Falco is broken, but then people forget that during all that time he's accomplished virtually nothing, and then he gets touched by one move, tossed like a salad for 5 seconds, and loses a stock.

I never felt that way. Falco doesn't seem broken to me at all, just good. Falco just has good matchups for reasons the current metagame displays. The only character who I believe is the closest thing to broken in this game is Peach. I don't think Peach is best character but she definitely has some nice jank and equalizers to her that are not balanced.

 

[Xyzz]

Stupid question: What do you do against Falcon nairs (edit: retreating ones of course )?
I'd love to punish whiffed ones with something, but can't seem to get the timing down... is it feasible, and I should just keep practicing, or do I need to do something stupid like "shoot more lasers till he does something reckless and punish that instead"?

 

[WestBallz]

Ya but you didnt steal the crown, that's what I mean.. too late for you to do that! I've got an achievement no one else in the world can get. You'd have to beat Armada but.. looks like thats not gonna happen now. =P

First u said i never beat him and now this? u got 3rd at the tourney u beat him at. Cant take a crown if you didnt even get first. And anyone who thinks kage is better is just flat out a noob or just a fanboy. The dude stands no chance. And for the noob who thinks cali hates kage because he beat mango is just stupid. What does me wanting to expose Kage for the noob he is have anything to do with mango losing years ago when in fact mango POOPED on KAGE with his LINK right after!!! Just for the noobs who think falco is OP i will MM Kage with my fox instead. Same amount of MONEY NO JOHNS!!!! Also i just got 2nd twice in the most recent norcal tournies. Only losing to PPU who i usually beat and mango. Also just recently 6-0 fly and came back from losers to beat S2j 3-2/3-2. S2j beat javi in a 20$ mm right after i beat javi in a 20$ MM just so u guys know that s2j is still frickin GODLIKE. Also i have been beating shroomed sfat and zhu pretty consistently. I and many others would consider myself #2 in cali right now behind one of the best mango. NOW THIS is really something KAGE will never acheive or come close to.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Dayummm!^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Zoler]

I haven't read this entire discussion but I don't think Weston likes Kage. Also you should come with Mango to Beast!

 

[Divinokage]

First u said i never beat him and now this? u got 3rd at the tourney u beat him at. Cant take a crown if you didnt even get first. And anyone who thinks kage is better is just flat out a noob or just a fanboy. The dude stands no chance. And for the noob who thinks cali hates kage because he beat mango is just stupid. What does me wanting to expose Kage for the noob he is have anything to do with mango losing years ago when in fact mango POOPED on KAGE with his LINK right after!!! Just for the noobs who think falco is OP i will MM Kage with my fox instead. Same amount of MONEY NO JOHNS!!!! Also i just got 2nd twice in the most recent norcal tournies. Only losing to PPU who i usually beat and mango. Also just recently 6-0 fly and came back from losers to beat S2j 3-2/3-2. S2j beat javi in a 20$ mm right after i beat javi in a 20$ MM just so u guys know that s2j is still frickin GODLIKE. Also i have been beating shroomed sfat and zhu pretty consistently. I and many others would consider myself #2 in cali right now behind one of the best mango. NOW THIS is really something KAGE will never acheive or come close to.

If I would live in Cali, I would do this easily and yes I'll own you. You will not succeed! You act as if I would not be able to beat these guys and in fact I think you are wrong straight up. Even with my current skills I have a good chance to do it. (I know its going to be hard) Anyways so now you want to MM with both characters finally? I dont have to go through BS in order to do it even though you said YOU would MM anyone? Good! Now it's not so ridiculous that you need to take this kind of defense in order to not MM me.

Also, the difference is that you play these guys all the time but when it comes to actual tournaments I do it better than you, so all that's left is come get me... if you can that is.

 

[The Business]

Essentially, as inconceivable as that sounds. Look at how strong Kage has placed. It is clear he is the better player or at least has proven himself in a superior fashion, no offensive to Westballz.

stop acting like falco vs ganon is an 8-2 matchup

 

[Cyan_]

damn i want to see that javi vs wes MM

 

[strawhats]

damn i want to see that javi vs wes MM

This^ and the S2J vs Javi MM.

 

[ElloEddy]

First u said i never beat him and now this? u got 3rd at the tourney u beat him at. Cant take a crown if you didnt even get first. And anyone who thinks kage is better is just flat out a noob or just a fanboy. The dude stands no chance. And for the noob who thinks cali hates kage because he beat mango is just stupid. What does me wanting to expose Kage for the noob he is have anything to do with mango losing years ago when in fact mango POOPED on KAGE with his LINK right after!!! Just for the noobs who think falco is OP i will MM Kage with my fox instead. Same amount of MONEY NO JOHNS!!!! Also i just got 2nd twice in the most recent norcal tournies. Only losing to PPU who i usually beat and mango. Also just recently 6-0 fly and came back from losers to beat S2j 3-2/3-2. S2j beat javi in a 20$ mm right after i beat javi in a 20$ MM just so u guys know that s2j is still frickin GODLIKE. Also i have been beating shroomed sfat and zhu pretty consistently. I and many others would consider myself #2 in cali right now behind one of the best mango. NOW THIS is really something KAGE will never acheive or come close to.

shroomed for number 2 ..since he performs when it counts

 

[Xyzz]

S2J will always be #2 in cali in my heart!

wait, Toph moved there, sorry... #3 :D

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

someones gonna get ****ed up @EVO
mm= too much hype gettem wes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but i want kage to **** **** up also

 

[ElloEddy]

Stupid question: What do you do against Falcon nairs (edit: retreating ones of course )?
I'd love to punish whiffed ones with something, but can't seem to get the timing down... is it feasible, and I should just keep practicing, or do I need to do something stupid like "shoot more lasers till he does something reckless and punish that instead"?

CC them at low percent or jump after him and dair him since your falco and your broken lol ...and outspace him

 

[Strong Badam]

or you can laser him and then he can't move and then falco him

 

[BTmoney]

stop acting like falco vs ganon is an 8-2 matchup

I like the way you added to the discussion lool. I'm sorry that I tried to explain why the MU is not in Ganon's favor.