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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

R

Rocketpowerchill

Smash Ace
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hax has best movement, best reads, best ****, best dropzones, best techchase, best color #jv12stockbreastcancer
he is the true successor to isai
i want to see isai try before i dai
 
The Business

The Business

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Tachi said:
Alright well I've had enough.
Interpret this/that as you will *hint, think objectively.*
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so you're a condescending pos who thinks that ganon v falco is SO BAD that it would take a god to beat any falco as ganon.

its also funny that you said that in 70 percent of situations falco is at the advantage vs ganon, but it takes 1 poorly DI-ed bair from ganon to kill falco at 50 percent. and it takes 2.5 hits to get falco to 50 percent.
 
F

FrootLoop

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falco vs ganon is unwinnable. People can mess up pressing buttons or choose bad strategies, but that makes them bad. It doesn't make the matchup better.
 
Ziodyne

Ziodyne

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I don't think it's at all worse than falcon vs falco (which isn't terrible, just shtty)

But I dunno, maybe linguini's made of magic and rainbows
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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Punzz said:
so i guess no falcos know how to fight doc?.......:cry:
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You probably mostly went under the radar in the midst of all the Wes vs Kage drama ;)

Some pointers vs Doc:
- He has stubby arms and legs, aka no range at all... so you can easily outspace his stuff.
- Make sure his pills don't force you into shield. You want to evade them by moving out of the way, they are slow.
- Cape doesn't stop you from using lasers. You can do whatever you do against powershields (jump over / dash under the reflects), and it's a far bigger commitment than a powershield attempt. Every time he tries to cape, you can get a free aerial on him if you read it.
So in summary: Stay mobile, and abuse your range and you should do fine against most docs.
 
BTmoney

BTmoney

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The Business said:
so you're a condescending pos who thinks that ganon v falco is SO BAD that it would take a god to beat any falco as ganon.

its also funny that you said that in 70 percent of situations falco is at the advantage vs ganon, but it takes 1 poorly DI-ed bair from ganon to kill falco at 50 percent. and it takes 2.5 hits to get falco to 50 percent.
  • I never said that was my opinion I used the chart just for the purpose of painting a picture although it is not far off from the truth. I can't take you seriously if you try to tell me what I said AND misinterpret it.
  • All it takes is poor DI to lose any match up
  • In what situation would you get hit by a bair and not be able to DI normally?
  • If you want to say surprise situations (or situations where the player/falco didn't expect to get hit), if you can surprise someone so much with the same static move you'll just beat them anyway
  • Even if that is true, that didn't even disprove the concept. That's just part of his hypothetical 30% percent. Now you need to understand that Ganon gets less openings (to abuse the bair that people can't DI for some reason) and less safe combo starters than Falco does.
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Tachi said:
...conventional MU concept...
...just for the sake of numerical explanation, don't take this verbatim...
Click to expand...
I suppose trying to break down things objectively and explain why it is commonly accepted (and proven in practice) that Falco beats Ganon makes me a piece of ****. Don't be ridiculous.

I don't know where you got offended.
It's almost like you didn't even read anything I said and you didn't understand how to apply a concept. The MU chart is essentially useless at this point, once again I only referenced to help explain my point, but do you even know what it is and its purpose?
You just misconstrued things and quoted out of context. Why don't you explain to me what makes a match up bad?
That should clear this up
edit:
color coding lol
 
Riio

Riio

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Having a lot of trouble doing shinegrabs. For some reason I can't shinegrab unless I wait a beat after shining, which kinda defeats the purpose. I've tried every input combination (controlstick + z, Y/X + z, even stick/Y/X + L + A) but if I try to jumpcancel the shine immediately I just jump out. I can JC grabs normally so I dunno what the problem is.
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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Well, you do have to sit out the hitstun of the shine (or hitlag? I always mix up the terminology of that... Here I mean the freeze frames you and your opponent go through before the game continues after your shine connects), so that might be messing you up, since usually if you just jc grab out of a dash or something, you don't have that. It might help to mentally separate the process into "Shine, wait for hitstun to end" and "do a jc grab, like you always do".

Also: Don't expect to grab spotdodges / rolls. If your opponent buffers those (or is just good enough with manual timing obviously), the frame data involved says you can't beat them ;)
 
Bones0

Bones0

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Riio said:
Having a lot of trouble doing shinegrabs. For some reason I can't shinegrab unless I wait a beat after shining, which kinda defeats the purpose. I've tried every input combination (controlstick + z, Y/X + z, even stick/Y/X + L + A) but if I try to jumpcancel the shine immediately I just jump out. I can JC grabs normally so I dunno what the problem is.
Click to expand...
If you're jumping but not grabbing, then the issue is with the timing of your grab. You're probably pressing Z while you're still in shine instead of after your first frame of jumpsquat. A lot of people are taught to JC grabs by pressing Y and Z at the same time, but you have to press Z after Y. If necessary, go into Training Mode, lower the speed, and slowly increase it once you are comfortable with the timing. If you sometimes don't jump at all, you may be getting thrown off by the hitlag of shine hitting someone's shield. If you JC with up on the stick, that might also be a problem because jumping with up buffers for 3 frames. So you could theoretically be inputting the jump, grabbing, and then the jump doesn't go through until a frame later because you were still in hitlag. That would only apply when you're hitting someone's shield though, and I assume you're just practicing on air.
 
Bones0

Bones0

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Actually, it varies based on whether you're hitting a shields, characters, nothing, and how staled your shine is. You will also sometimes want to confirm that they are indeed shielding before grabbing so that if they got hit by the shine you can followup instead of whiffing a grab as they soar (somewhat) safely into the air.
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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I find that a lot of the time I can still follow up after the shine actually hits them and I'm grabbing thin air.
i have so much fun to dair > shine > shine > grab somebody shielding at the ledge expecting to be forced to take the trouble of edgeguarding them after a fthrow, just to see them pop into the air waiting for the dair spike to happen after the grab animation finishes :D

edit: also, I don't quite understand why people would practice stuff on air instead of a lvl1 cpu :x (or a 2nd controller)
 
Bones0

Bones0

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Because CPUs don't sit still and shield. lol And yeah, I often get the follow up after a missed shine grab too, but it's usually not as solid as just straight comboing. Especially if it's someone like Peach/Luigi that are already really close to aerialing out of pillar combos.
 
The Business

The Business

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Tachi said:
I suppose trying to break down things objectively and explain why it is commonly accepted (and proven in practice) that Falco beats Ganon makes me a piece of ****. Don't be ridiculous.

I don't know where you got offended.
It's almost like you didn't even read anything I said and you didn't understand how to apply a concept. The MU chart is essentially useless at this point, once again I only referenced to help explain my point, but do you even know what it is and its purpose?
You just misconstrued things and quoted out of context. Why don't you explain to me what makes a match up bad?
That should clear this up
edit:
color coding lol
Click to expand...
how many times do I have to say that I don't care what you think about the matchup and say that discrediting a win over character imbalance is the only thing i care about?

I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT GANON V FALCO. You saying that if westballz wins its only because of his character is plain ********, and that is the only part I am arguing

so stop telling me about how the matchup is 70-30 falcos favor because i don't care.
 
BTmoney

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The Business said:
how many times do I have to say that I don't care what you think about the matchup and say that discrediting a win over character imbalance is the only thing i care about?

I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT GANON V FALCO. You saying that if westballz wins its only because of his character is plain ********, and that is the only part I am arguing

so stop telling me about how the matchup is 70-30 falcos favor because i don't care.
Click to expand...
I honestly didn't read that. It's a dead topic and you've just been rude and restated irrelevant things.

edit:
as in I'm not responding any further
 
Browny

Browny

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Hi,

Just a quick question, I was just wondering if falco has any guaranteed KO set ups from grabs. I'm good with memorising %'s and that so if theres a range and directional throw I can always kill the usual suspects with, I'd be interested in it. Accounting for the best escaping DI of course, I mean truly inescapable combos.

Thanks.
 
oukd

oukd

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if falco had guaranteed ko's out of grab he would be on that banned status
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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Browny said:
Hmmm it's just that I've seen a few things like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KvZH7KSMPsc#t=59s and I mean, if he was closer to the edge that would have killed. Was that legitimate?

And this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KvZH7KSMPsc#t=315s
Click to expand...
You see him whiffing tons of upthrow follow ups in the very same set. And that's Peepee, who has admirable consistency in his punishes.
Upthrow even allows your opponent to SDI on the lasers, so that's pretty impossible to follow up all of the time. It's good, but really not guaranteed.
 
Browny

Browny

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Well yeah but theres a lot to consider. Was the uthrow stale in those whiffed ones, was he frame perfect, was pikachu 1% too high or too low for it to work?

I'm not saying it is guaranteed its just that I see it connect a reasonable amount and makes me wonder was the only reason it hit because the opponent didn't DI hard enough or AD or something to avoid it. The second clip looks like pika could have done something, but the first looks inescapable to me :| the % was low enough such that Pika just didnt go high enough.

IDK, I just want to be hopeful lol.
 
ElloEddy

ElloEddy

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Xyzz said:
I did upthrow > shine > up b on a falcon yesterday :D

I don't think Falco has anything remotely close to guaranteed though.
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up throw shine isn't guaranteed its funny when i see ppl go for it all the time .... ..falco has no guarantees outta grabs ..you can catch ppl sleeping and not expecting it

EX.. grabbing someone at low percent at the edge ...hopefully the SDI expecting the F-throw ..then you procced to upthrow shine/dair them lol ..thats if there playing a fast falling character anyway
 
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