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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Say something insightful so we can discuss it. lol this thread is a sack of inactive potatoes
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's because PP quit Falco.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
that's not comforting at all
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
i think i said thanks to bones already, but really...after watching you i decided to shield drop and i swear i can shield drop on command these days. Though I finally realized that shield dropping off the top platform is kind of stupid, but man does it help getting down if you can do that when you want. People are going to get better at baiting shield drops for a free punish though now that it's becoming common
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I can't always get my shield drops. Could you go over all the semantics that go into it? Usually when i mess them up I get a spot dodge.
edit:
Also why don't more people fade inwards (go behind) people more when shield pressuring? It takes shield grabbing completely out of the equation. If the game is physically correct you fast fall at the same speed whether or not you go straight down or drift in a certain direction.
Bones0
Smash Legend
There is really no "trick" to shield dropping. You just have to have good control of the stick, and be able to time the input during shield stun (if applicable). Only tricky thing is I would recommend going down and to the side at a 45 degree angle as opposed to going straight down. It is by no means required, but you can probably visualize how it is easier to get to the appropriate height slower. By going at an angle, you are essentially travelling along the hypotenuse of the stick, which means it is longer than the leg (straight down). Travelling a longer distance makes it easier because most people go too fast (and end up spot dodging). If you have two people moving their sticks at different angles but at the same speed, the person who goes straight down will tend to spotdodge more often than the person going at an angle. The horizontal distance you travel is irrelevant to shield drops (as long as you don't accidentally roll), so all you are really doing is traversing the vertical distance more precisely.
People don't fade inwards during shield pressure because it's usually really hard to cross up without some serious momentum. Next time you are nair/dair-shining someone's shield, try doing both early and late aerials as you cross them up. Even without hitting their shield to push them back, your body alone pushes them back a good amount of distance. Don't get me wrong, I love crossing people up and it's extremely effective, but it just isn't feasible to execute once you've established pressure and don't have momentum going towards them. Crossups are for when you are making your original approach, or when you are super deep on their shield and know you can "pole vault" over them to avoid the grab. This pretty much always requires you to not aerial until you have crossed them up, and simply not doing an aerial as you try to jump over your opponent just isn't safe. They have way too much time to hit you before you get on the other side of their shield and are able to attack.
If you want to take shield grabs out of the equation, stick to late aerials into shines and fadeaway aerials. They are both much more safe (impossible to grab late aerial-shine, and fading away even lets you avoid other OoS options) as well as more effective because some characters will grab you even if you technically crossed them up (Falcon, Sheik... Link lol).
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
you can always jump again ( and go back to the platform if you react fast enough ) or attack from a shield drop..its honestly kinda hard to punish shield drops and bait them since there as so many options out of it
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well when you play vs a Yoshi that knows how to do this or Axe, you'll quickly adapt yourself to punish those.
although there's another thread on shield pressure now apparently (lmao) i'd just like to say. i don't understand how waveland down can be safe at all...? even though cactuar has said wes shield pressure has more utility than just doing shines continuously, when do you see him do something other than keep shining if the other person stays in shield (which is usually what happens)? And they can still roll out... sure you can react but grounded doubleshines you can do that as well lol? idk.
anyway I think something interesting to try out is shine --> delayed doubleshine, which would have the same effect as double shine except more shield damage; by delaying the second shine, you can conceivably punish attempted oos options and stuff, and if they stay in shield the situation gets reset. so i guess theoretically you could just do delayed multishines =/
anyway I think something interesting to try out is shine --> delayed doubleshine, which would have the same effect as double shine except more shield damage; by delaying the second shine, you can conceivably punish attempted oos options and stuff, and if they stay in shield the situation gets reset. so i guess theoretically you could just do delayed multishines =/
Bones0
Smash Legend
You can delay the second shine of your doubleshine, but it's extremely risky. The whole reason double shining is so good is because almost everyone times their OoS option to come out right after the first shine. So if your opponent shield grabs after your first shine and you delay your second, you'll get grabbed and both spacies are so fragile this risk is almost never worth it.
The extra shield damage from a second shine is negligible. It does so little percent that you won't be taking much of their shield health out with one or even two extra shines. I think a common misconception about depleting shields is that people overlook the natural shield decay when the opponent isn't in shield stun. If you late dair-shine on their shield and have conditioned them properly so that you can JC with a SH and wait for another late dair, that time you spend waiting to do the second dair makes their shield decrease almost as much as the dair itself. So next time you're shield pressuring and their shield is shrinking, focus more on drawing out the shield pressure while still being safe as opposed to speeding it up and hitting them as many times as possible. For example, simply waveshining on them and DDing for a split second before jumping back on their shield will do almost the same amount of shield damage than trying to aerial-shine on their shield twice, and it keeps you a million times safer during that time.
If you want to delay between multishines, you might as well just jump immediately after the first and aerial, either committing to another late aerial because you think they will hold shield, or fading away with an early aerial. Almost ironically, doubleshining is a huge part of the first option to keep them in shield. When you demonstrate that you are able and willing to double shine on their shield frequently and often, they'll be more hesitant to attempt OoS options immediately after the first shine because they know if they're wrong they will get hit by the doubleshine.
dkuo
Smash Lord
meh i wouldnt say it's *extremely* risky unless the opponent likes to immediately shine/samus-up+b you oos, since (correct me if im wrong) every other option would *still* be slow enough to get punished by the slightly delayed doubleshine. this is assuming your delay gap isn't gigantic, and even if it is it's not going to be any slower than say shine > slight-delay aerial which is pretty common
gotta feel out their oos preferences imo
gotta feel out their oos preferences imo
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
wtf pp quit falco, who the **** does he play now
Bones0
Smash Legend
It all depends on how big of a gap we are talking. With roll being such a go-to option vs. shine for a lot of characters, I just try to keep my multishines as fast as possible. You're typically going to drop 2-3 frames from JCing a little slow and your shine being staled, and they already have 2 frames where they are not in shield stun so you can only afford 1 frame of error if you plan on punishing a buffered roll (invincible frame 4). Grabs aren't far behind, hitting on frame 7, which means trying to delay even 3-4 frames could mean getting grabbed. My main point is, what does delaying it get you anyway? You gain nothing from delaying the timing of your shine except maybe keeping them in shield stun a split second longer than they expect. This could block a grab or jump OoS attempt if they are anticipating a second shine, but I'd rather not block those attempts anyway. I'd rather let them attempt their option and beat it straight up. Blocking it completely means they just end up holding shield, and the longer I'm on their shield, the more likely I am to get grabbed or hit OoS.
If all you are talking about is delaying a frame or two because you want to make sure they start their OoS option BEFORE the second shine, then okay, I can understand that. I just don't think that's necessary vs. better players who are ridiculously comfortable with moving OoS after shines.
[collapse=Multishine Frame Data]
[/collapse]
Bones0
Smash Legend
I did not quit Falco, I just find the Marth boards more fun and everyone doesn't hate Marth(yet) so he's more emotionally rewarding to play. Is that stupid? Completely.
I practice Falco every day and am trying to put a lot of things together for my bird. I have a lot of neutral prowess now and a lot of older combo prowess I want to put together to be really good with Falco.
Example of punishment thing I did: combo at higher percents with FH/DJ Dair to FF tech chase. They usually miss the tech and roll away so I can get a free Fsmash or Dair to Dair or something similar.
Example of neutral thing I do now: WD'ing and WL'ing into the opponent because CC'ing is awesome, air control is awesome, shine is awesome, and laser threat is cool.
I practice Falco every day and am trying to put a lot of things together for my bird. I have a lot of neutral prowess now and a lot of older combo prowess I want to put together to be really good with Falco.
Example of punishment thing I did: combo at higher percents with FH/DJ Dair to FF tech chase. They usually miss the tech and roll away so I can get a free Fsmash or Dair to Dair or something similar.
Example of neutral thing I do now: WD'ing and WL'ing into the opponent because CC'ing is awesome, air control is awesome, shine is awesome, and laser threat is cool.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I just said that to get you back in this thread. MUAHAHA!
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Does suck when everyone hates your character though. I can understand wanting to play one you won't hear endless complaining about.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Makes me wonder if a champion like PP cares about stuff like this. I doubt it honestly.
Bones0
Smash Legend
He just said that's why he doesn't post in the Falco forums as much...
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
You haven't seen his Marth destroy everyone yet? He's the best Marth already IMO
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Obvious mindgames, at least the way I see it. lol.
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
wait pp destroyed m2k in WF marth dittos
and precceeded to **** up that shiek on FoD
lol i was watching it live
just didnt think the day would come where PP wud quit falco
but i wanna see PP and PPU go at it for best marth
falco or not pp is still one of the games best minds #motivation #jv12stockbreastcancerandotherfightinggames@EVO13
and precceeded to **** up that shiek on FoD
lol i was watching it live
just didnt think the day would come where PP wud quit falco
but i wanna see PP and PPU go at it for best marth
falco or not pp is still one of the games best minds #motivation #jv12stockbreastcancerandotherfightinggames@EVO13
I don't care about that when I'm playing really. It's mostly forum-related.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm glad you took that suggestion, at the time when I was suggesting it I wasn't too sure how it would pan out since throwing yourself into the opponent is usually really dangerous. Unusual risk/reward assessment makes that type of innovation hard to evaluate honestly IMO.
Thanks for the compliment.
michael_li
Smash Ace
bro... my buddy blunted object 10 & some funny guy name DA DAVE has been doing that stuff before u were born in smash.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I've had cases where you can sometimes get hit by a low KB move like jab or Falcon's nair and then you can SDI it and then immediately WL back to create space or even inside works too.
Little England
Smash Master
wtf
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
See marth boards
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
watching mango **** in falco dittos was a real treat today
Bones0
Smash Legend
I timed out a Samus that cped me to Kongo Jungle last night. Easy mode.
Then I lost to the cheapest character in the game in grand finals (Luigi).
Then I lost to the cheapest character in the game in grand finals (Luigi).
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
watching him get 4stocked made me relize armada is the spacey DESTROYER
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
watching him get 4stocked made me relize armada is the king of games
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
His Falco was doing better against armada than his fox which is interesting.
Can we get some discussion going though?
Where does Falco want to be positionally if it's up to him?
Fox can go to platforms and also doesn't mind dashdancing away from the opponent and or avoiding the opponent until they open themselves up.
Marth likes DD'ing and I would say he doesn't like being on platforms or above people.
Where does Falco want to be when he is not lasering someone far away on the same level? Does he generally want to stay on top of people?
Can we get some discussion going though?
Where does Falco want to be positionally if it's up to him?
Fox can go to platforms and also doesn't mind dashdancing away from the opponent and or avoiding the opponent until they open themselves up.
Marth likes DD'ing and I would say he doesn't like being on platforms or above people.
Where does Falco want to be when he is not lasering someone far away on the same level? Does he generally want to stay on top of people?
If possible, Falco would like to be in a space a little under a SHFFL aerial-length away and ideally have just shot a laser.
Better than that is to laser into someone's shield or delayed aerial onto someone's shield(aka be on top of them on your own terms.)
Better than that is to laser into someone's shield or delayed aerial onto someone's shield(aka be on top of them on your own terms.)
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
hey I was wondering about that cactuar advice on always be dashdancing
what should i do outta dd
and technically, do people mash the stick all the way or go just beyond neutral when dding?
im trying to become less button heavy
what should i do outta dd
and technically, do people mash the stick all the way or go just beyond neutral when dding?
im trying to become less button heavy
Well you should also consider HOW you DD and not just what you do AFTER it's over. After DD'ing, attacking and moving away and lasering are all pretty good lol.
And that last question may be a little controller-dependent, but I think that's something you should test out and see what you like best. Pushing the stick down different intensities could result in different DDs which may end up being useful =)
And that last question may be a little controller-dependent, but I think that's something you should test out and see what you like best. Pushing the stick down different intensities could result in different DDs which may end up being useful =)
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Right I'll try to take that to heart and see where it takes me.
Any insight on getting LHDL closer to the ground and closer to the same level?
That is literally the only tangible I can't do with Falco.
Off topic:
It feels good when I look like 4 months back before I started practicing and I thought things shining out of shield or doing shine->instant aerials or double shines were impossible. Now I can do those things no prob.
Did anyone ever feel that way? Like when you first started you thought space animals looked ridiculous and the learning curve was too steep for you to get into the game?
I think that's in interesting q
Drop a little lower before doing the LHDL and push B sooner so you're rising a little with the first and stay about the same height for the second.
I remember when I used to get super excited about my technical progress. Though I have things to work on still, some of my basic tech is improving and THAT makes me really happy to see. =)