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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Rocketpowerchill

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
568
Location
Jarretsville md
oh, i gotta stop talking about stuff i dont understand and do my techskill HW.
imo things that i need to get down solid are:
shines outta shield to intercept pressure-
clean isai drops on my arials and lazers
the lambchops marth destroyer = pivot double lazer
shield drops smooth
i guess i need to learn a solid lazer game
smash taunting is another thing too i need hella work so any ideas on my check list, im starting small and i want to build up to jump shine pressure
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
oh, i gotta stop talking about stuff i dont understand and do my techskill HW.
imo things that i need to get down solid are:
shines outta shield to intercept pressure-
clean isai drops on my arials and lazers
the lambchops marth destroyer = pivot double lazer
shield drops smooth
i guess i need to learn a solid lazer game
smash taunting is another thing too i need hella work so any ideas on my check list, im starting small and i want to build up to jump shine pressure
You don't need to Isai drop if you landed during your aerial.

What is a pivot double laser?

Shield drops aren't that important. You should just focus on more basic stuff for now.
 

MrDizzle

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
16
Bones0 said:
What is a pivot double laser?
I think he's talking about running off the stage, fast fall, double jump to turn-around double laser. I don't see at all how it is a Marth destroyer though, since the edge is the last place I want to be against Marth.

Bones0 said:
Shield drops aren't that important.
Why do you think so? When I'm on a platform I feel like waiting for my opponent to either attack or land on the platform to a shield drop is the safest option to get off the platform.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Why do you think so? When I'm on a platform I feel like waiting for my opponent to either attack or land on the platform to a shield drop is the safest option to get off the platform.
It may very well be the safest option, especially vs. players that are either not that good in general, or bad at dealing with shield drops because they've really just never had to before. The problem I have with it is that it puts you in the mentality of "Oh crap, I landed on this platform, so now I have to shield and hope they do something dumb." Once good opponents catch on to the fact that you are shield dropping, they start doing things to get around it. They will feint an attack and try to punish your drop. They will actually hit your shield, but space it so your counterattack whiffs and they can punish it.They may just wait while your shield shrinks, and suddenly what turned into your go-to gimmick has you in a horrible position. You end up above a character (almost always super awful positioning), low shield health (they can attack at any time and you will be vulnerable to pokes), or you just realize that they are waiting and jump. That last option may sound just dandy, but the longer you wait in shield on a platform, the more likely they will be to swing because they know you are more likely to abort your shield drop plan.

All of these mixups only become possible once you make the decision to shield on a platform. If the alternative is really that much worse than the situation I depicted above, then by all means shield and do your best to get out of the situation however you can. Most of the time, however, I notice myself shielding on platforms when I don't need to because I am in the mentality to get shield drop counterattacks. When I am able to resist the temptation of a seemingly risk-free shield drop punish, I find myself getting away safely much more often. So if you have two players, one who relies on shield dropping and one who doesn't, the one who does will definitely get some good counterattacks, and he will even be able to escape largely inescapable situations. The other player may just get hit every time in those situations where shield drop is necessary, but in all of the other situations he is maintaining dynamic movement where even if his opponent plays properly, he still has a chance to outplay him. Barring a few outlier situations, you can't outplay someone from shield. You are simply limiting your options, and most importantly, your movement for no reason. If shield dropping or shielding in general is working against someone, chances are they are outplaying themselves.

This is why I think it's much more important to get the skills for all of the different escape scenarios first. Learn when you should jump, learn when you roll, learn when you should hold shield, and then once you've really explored all these options, you can start shield dropping in scenarios where you know in your heart you have no other options. If your brain does its systematic option-check when you land on a platform and you can't jump, roll, CC, hold shield, or do anything without posing a risk greater than a shield drop, then you can go ahead and shield drop. If it doesn't work, then at least you got punished knowing you made the right decision to survive, and not just the easiest/simplest decision of "I'll shield on the plat and hope he outplays himself!"



In a more broad sense, I think this really fits in with the mentality of making purposeful decisions. I'm really starting to appreciate the benefits of active decision making vs. passive decision making. One of the core principals of things we label gimmicks is that they are largely passive. You aren't deciding to shield when you land on the platform. You have defaulted to shielding and occasionally make the decision to NOT shield drop. This mentality seems to make people extremely predictable in general. I know I used to, and to some extent still do, struggle with teching. It's not because I make poor tech decisions. Rather, I don't make tech decisions often enough. Too often I default to tech in place because tech in place shine worked all day on my training partner's Marth when we were both really bad. Then fast forward a year, and now he grabs techs in place on reaction almost every time, but I am still in the habit of teching in place. It crops up most often vs. Falcon because Falcon's anticipate techs in place religiously. The amount of knees and stomps Falcon players place in the tech in place area are ridiculous, yet when I'm focused on my DI or other things, that habit of teching in place bleeds through my gameplay and becomes a huge weakness.

DI is another thing that new players frequently disregard as a passive habit as opposed to an active decision. I'm sure everyone's seen someone take 20 Marth fairs into a Ken combo and wonder, "Wow, why did they DI in that whole time?" It's because they learned to survival DI first, and thus it became their default mechanism any time and every time they get touched. I understand why it's simpler and probably more effective for new players to learn survival DI before combo DI, but the process of breaking the default habit later on is overlooked way too often. Melee being the unforgiving game that it is, this means many players will lose almost all of their tournament matches early in their career because of these default habits. Once their opponent figures out their defaults (which are almost universal because of human nature and also because things are often tought in the same general order), they destroy them. A huge reason I believe new players can be discouraged is because they don't feel like they're getting outplayed. This is because their DECISIONS aren't being outplayed, but rather their LACK OF DECISIONS. If a player doesn't even realize that his brain has set his default DI decision to SURVIVE, then of course he's going to be bewildered and frustrated when he loses a set almost entirely from punishes designed for survival DI.




And, LOL WALL OF TEXT, that's why I don't recommend learning shield dropping very early on. If you want to learn and apply it, that's fine, but the way I have always learned is to spam something until it becomes habit for the necessary situations. Shield dropping is so difficult in execution as well as deciding when to do it, you pretty much have to just dedicate to shield dropping all the time if you want to learn it in any discernible window of time. If you can discipline yourself to practice shield dropping only in situations where it's the only way out, then by all means give it a go. I just know from my own experience that I couldn't possibly have learned it like that, and even now I'm still backtracking a decent amount trying to weed out all of my unnecessary platform shielding preventing me from properly engaging my opponent through active decision making.
 

noobird

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 22, 2010
Messages
244
still wondering how good people are at buffered shine oos. i always buffer but it's only grounded sometimes for obvious reasons
 

Bones0

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still wondering how good people are at buffered shine oos. i always buffer but it's only grounded sometimes for obvious reasons
There's no point in buffering the jump if you're going to shine OoS. You may jump OoS a frame or so faster than if you did a manual input, but you are still going to shine at the same time because it's not like you are reacting to your jump. The timing of the shine is entirely based on your perception of the shield stun, so you might as well jump normally so you can at least control how high off the ground you are when you shine (if at all).
 

Rocketpowerchill

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Jarretsville md
wait you can normally fall after an arial thats easy
and it is very possible to shield drop lazer on the closest ground on the side plats, I did it just to see if you could and those lazers are on the ground
and with combo di, i know to away always but how do you get it good, do i use cstick and should I be mahsing
i havent played with alot of good teachers so i dont know anything besides survival and i know about DIng away but how do i perform the input with the sticks
Im tired of getting caught up in utilts from marth, how do you tech a utilt while standing on platz cuz thats not a safe place to be especially falco
 

Bones0

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wait you can normally fall after an arial thats easy
and it is very possible to shield drop lazer on the closest ground on the side plats, I did it just to see if you could and those lazers are on the ground
and with combo di, i know to away always but how do you get it good, do i use cstick and should I be mahsing
i havent played with alot of good teachers so i dont know anything besides survival and i know about DIng away but how do i perform the input with the sticks
Im tired of getting caught up in utilts from marth, how do you tech a utilt while standing on platz cuz thats not a safe place to be especially falco
Are you using Fox? You can probably do it with him because his laser comes out faster, but there's no way you're shield dropping lasers on YS side plats with Falco.

You don't want to always DI away. DI is just one huge network of mixups. You just have to experiment with which DI gets you out of combos most often (just make sure you aren't getting out because your opponent can't combo properly). C-stick isn't that important. Don't worry about it. Do you mean mashing out of grabs? I try to mash out at low %s, and if my DI won't really affect their followup (like Marth will almost always uthrow CG regardless of how you DI), I won't be worried about mashing with the stick as well as the buttons.

You can search for more in depth explanations of DI, but essentially you want to aim your control stick perpendicular to the default KB trajectory. This makes the most difference in your trajectory. Just because it makes the most difference, however, doesn't mean it's always the best DI. Doc's fair actually sends at almost exactly 45 degrees, so if you get uthrow-faired by him, you will want to barely change your trajectory at all. You just want to aim your trajectory towards the corner because you will always travel the same distance, but the blastzones are rectangular so the path to the corners of the blastzones are further than the path straight up or straight to the side.

Marth utilting your shield is actually one of the few scenarios where I think it'd be okay to learn to shield drop. Other than that, you can just shield it and jump/WD out, maybe falling through the plat to counterattack as long as he isn't spaced properly. Make sure you're always DIing utilts when you do get hit.
 

Purpletuce

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"Rocketpowerchill" You're thinking very backwards. You essentially said: "I'm need to stop learning how to play so I can do more flashy things." That is just a terrible idea. Technical players are generally worse than smart players. For example, I will tell you a story:

There is this guy in my region who does all kinds of moonwalks and strange shine things and slides around being fancy. He is very technical, and looks cool in a match. He has been playing for much longer than I have. He always goes for impractical things we saw in a SW/Wes video, and it works sometimes and it is nice. I picked up Falco in a month and I don't really have any tech skill. I beat that guy.

Moral of the story: Play smarter.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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Are you using Fox? You can probably do it with him because his laser comes out faster, but there's no way you're shield dropping lasers on YS side plats with Falco.
I promise you that its possible as I did it multiple times, I %99 of the time got a blank shot when I was just trying it last night because my shield drops are rusty but i guarantee you you can get a lazer off with falco.
Also about combo DI should I just hold away or do I need to input away after each hit

I do mash when I try to break marths and shieks trying to be gay but I got to be more careful as sometimes improper mashing may lead to poor di and some random arial like falco/fox fair and you SD

but yea i promise you shield drop lazer with falco isnt tas exclusive on yoshis, I have no need to be able to shield drop lazer, but I will practice raw shield drops to avoid ftilt and fsmash spam from marth and utilt spam from shieks.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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Messages
568
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Jarretsville md
"Rocketpowerchill" You're thinking very backwards. You essentially said: "I'm need to stop learning how to play so I can do more flashy things." That is just a terrible idea. Technical players are generally worse than smart players. For example, I will tell you a story:

There is this guy in my region who does all kinds of moonwalks and strange shine things and slides around being fancy. He is very technical, and looks cool in a match. He has been playing for much longer than I have. He always goes for impractical things we saw in a SW/Wes video, and it works sometimes and it is nice. I picked up Falco in a month and I don't really have any tech skill. I beat that guy.

Moral of the story: Play smarter.
dude lol i am actually wanting to narrow my game down into a simple basic style, although it seems i think i want to be all flashy, I know I have a ton of physical limits and by no means do I want to be the next silentwolf.
Im actually just trying ti figure out what the important tech skill is and what should be fundamental because if you cant do it in hand warmers than you know what you should cut for that day.

I'll admit I am an absolute dumbass to be saying all this techskill **** like "I can multishine 100 times in a row" and Whats really important is the mindgames, reads, choice of moves, and consistent play of your own level. I really want to be a cactuar or jman, pp
those are the guys i want to adopt a playstyle from

lmao I am gonna stick to productive habits and making in between stocks more worth it. No PJSalt, just constructive critiscism lmao GGS man :)
 

Divinokage

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Messages
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"Rocketpowerchill" You're thinking very backwards. You essentially said: "I'm need to stop learning how to play so I can do more flashy things." That is just a terrible idea. Technical players are generally worse than smart players. For example, I will tell you a story:

There is this guy in my region who does all kinds of moonwalks and strange shine things and slides around being fancy. He is very technical, and looks cool in a match. He has been playing for much longer than I have. He always goes for impractical things we saw in a SW/Wes video, and it works sometimes and it is nice. I picked up Falco in a month and I don't really have any tech skill. I beat that guy.

Moral of the story: Play smarter.
Moral of the story: Falco.
 

ElloEddy

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moral of the story : anything can happen in falco dittos
nah moral is tech skill inst as important as learning the basics ....but honestly ppl always say that and dont realize you can never be good unless you play with good ppl....and for ppl like you and me who have no choice but to play CPU's 70% of the time tech-skill is all we can work on
 

Divinokage

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its hard to shine oos ...i suck at it lol
Do it slower, make sure the move you are currently being hit with has finished stunning your shield and then you input jump and shine pretty much at the same time. I guess to buffer a jump you'd hold up then shine? But I cant play that way, I just do it by eye.
 

ElloEddy

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Do it slower, make sure the move you are currently being hit with has finished stunning your shield and then you input jump and shine pretty much at the same time. I guess to buffer a jump you'd hold up then shine? But I cant play that way, I just do it by eye.

i get some shine oos about 30% of the time ...other times my shine just miss ..or i get attacked/shined (if its a spacie) and i dodge alot when i go for oos shine does that mean im doing it to fast?
 

Bones0

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I promise you that its possible as I did it multiple times, I %99 of the time got a blank shot when I was just trying it last night because my shield drops are rusty but i guarantee you you can get a lazer off with falco.
Also about combo DI should I just hold away or do I need to input away after each hit

I do mash when I try to break marths and shieks trying to be gay but I got to be more careful as sometimes improper mashing may lead to poor di and some random arial like falco/fox fair and you SD

but yea i promise you shield drop lazer with falco isnt tas exclusive on yoshis, I have no need to be able to shield drop lazer, but I will practice raw shield drops to avoid ftilt and fsmash spam from marth and utilt spam from shieks.
Yeah, I actually went into Training Mode and was able to get a few, but it certainly wasn't consistent, so if you can do it reliably then that's sick, and I will probably put some more effort into it.

Inputting a direction on the stick won't have any effect on your trajectory if you do it after the move hits.
 

Divinokage

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i get some shine oos about 30% of the time ...other times my shine just miss ..or i get attacked/shined (if its a spacie) and i dodge alot when i go for oos shine does that mean im doing it to fast?
When you mean 30% of the time, you mean that sometimes you get it but it still whiffs? If so then that means it was simply unsafe to do, the range of shine is very low so you'll need to trap someone by running, DD and then shield to mess up your opponent's moves at times in order for you to be able to do it. If you just stand there -> Shield and wait for a move, you allow your opponent to space inside your shield or overshoot so you wont be able to connect with shine OOS. You have to trap his aerial control fading away or coming in with shield in order for shine OOS to land and that is done by understanding really how far or the limits a character can move in the air with moves.

Also im not sure what you mean by you dodge before shine oos? Does that mean you dodge to shield first?
 

Divinokage

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He is pressing down for the shine before JCing.
Ah ok, thanks! So ya that means he is doing it too fast. Not sure what I can really clarify extra though. My advice is just to slow down your hands and make sure you get the correct motion first before trying to jerk into it right away.. it will reduce your consistency by a lot if you try to do it just like that. (Attack inside your shield) -> Hold shield -> Release shield before jump -> jump -> down-B right away. You have to do it in that order, if you are still holding R or L when you down-B.. you'll likely dodge. I think that's the problem.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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Jarretsville md
hell yea shine oos is pretty hard
i like to trick my mind into thinking the shield was the first shine and im going for a double or triple and my fingers act like im initialy going from y to b.
 

Xyzz

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Yeah, I actually went into Training Mode and was able to get a few, but it certainly wasn't consistent, so if you can do it reliably then that's sick, and I will probably put some more effort into it.

Inputting a direction on the stick won't have any effect on your trajectory if you do it after the move hits.
Where's the difference between shield drop > laser and isai drop > laser? I mean they both have you dropping through the platform and the stick somewhere in a downangled postion, right? I fail to see how the former could be harder to get than the later (other than getting the actual shield drop of course :D), and even I'm near 100% consitency with isai drop > laser on Yoshis.
hmm... just tried with shield drops (well, missing most of them, since I never bothered to learn those :D). I really don't get why but it seems way harder to get the laser out.
 

Bones0

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Where's the difference between shield drop > laser and isai drop > laser? I mean they both have you dropping through the platform and the stick somewhere in a downangled postion, right? I fail to see how the former could be harder to get than the later (other than getting the actual shield drop of course :D), and even I'm near 100% consitency with isai drop > laser on Yoshis.

Shield dropping circumvents the initial crouch frames of a regular drop through, so you drop through 3 frames sooner. It doesn't sound like much, but it makes it really hard to let go of down in time for the B input.

 

BTmoney

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Is grounded shine->instant bair a true combo/always work?

When I am doing mid air shine->instant bair they are much cleaner but there are no jump squat frames once you are already midair (but I'm sure there is some sort of double jump downtime for a few frames when you can't input an aerial, I imagine it's less than jump squat frames through)
 

Rocketpowerchill

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Shield dropping circumvents the initial crouch frames of a regular drop through, so you drop through 3 frames sooner. It doesn't sound like much, but it makes it really hard to let go of down in time for the B input.
wait can you isai drop arials, just wondering if you could and if it was quicker cuz i see a nair in that vid
 

Bones0

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Is grounded shine->instant bair a true combo/always work?

When I am doing mid air shine->instant bair they are much cleaner but there are no jump squat frames once you are already midair (but I'm sure there is some sort of double jump downtime for a few frames when you can't input an aerial, I imagine it's less than jump squat frames through)
Grounded shine to bair obviously combos (you do combo shine into a DJ dair, right? :p). They can probably SDI out of a grounded shine-bair though, depending on the character and %.

wait can you isai drop arials, just wondering if you could and if it was quicker cuz i see a nair in that vid
If you watch the clip again, you'll see that Isai dropping after an aerial is no quicker than simply pressing down.
 

RedGamer

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I don't know if I'm the only one that this has happened to, but I am a seriously solid falco with decent matchup experience, however for some reason when I play against my friends on weekends my fingers don't cooperate.

I was playing on friday april 5 and my friend clnr was playing marth. he was comboing me 0-death every stock and it frustrated me. Not because I didn't know how to get out of it, but because I knew how to get out of it but my fingers were like "nope, you're gonna take it like a man."

My mood got worse and worse throughout the night (clnr would later on beat me with pichu) until I said "surprise free for all" and jumped in before my other friends could start their next match.

I won, but I actually had fun. Then, my falco went off.

My mindgames, spacing, techskill, zoning, shield pressure, reads, and...well...everything improved dramatically.

I was asked if I had been sandbagging for the past 3 months. Sadly, no.

I've noticed that in order for me to play at my best like I did on that friday, I first have to warm up my tech skill, then warm up the matchups, and then lastly I have to have fun (now I keep bugging them about free-for-all, they never agree to it), and for me it has to be done in that order.

I hope this helped if anyone has trouble with falco.
 

Swann

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I'll just excuse myself from matches and sit on my hands for like 15 minutes. Cold hand johns don't mess around, when they hit they hit HARD.

People were talking about lasers and movement options earlier? One cool thing I've been doing especially against powershield-heavy players is to laser once, then empty hop->WL grab. This seems to work best if you can get the first laser out around/just inside marth's DA range.

It's occurred to me recently how fantastic grabs are as kind of a mental mixup on the other guy.
 

Divinokage

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finally someone taking cold hands seriously
i dont jon but wen i do it cold hands cuz my hands are purple and i cant SHL and SHFFL
Let me teach you one little thing, you do not go into tournaments without preparations. At the end of the day, no matter what excuses you come up with, you still lost. It's on you to figure out why you lost and then the next time you won't do that same mistake. It's like if you went outside in the cold before a tourney set and then you blame it on cold hands.. it's your fault. lol.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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Let me teach you one little thing, you do not go into tournaments without preparations. At the end of the day, no matter what excuses you come up with, you still lost. It's on you to figure out why you lost and then the next time you won't do that same mistake. It's like if you went outside in the cold before a tourney set and then you blame it on cold hands.. it's your fault. lol.
do people even john anymoar cuz i seriously dont believe in johning and you win then dont john when you win
if you lose then dont be a ****in *****
but yea its up to the player to come prepared
i hate johning, and especially people who john when they win, i feel ya
 

BTmoney

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Let me teach you one little thing, you do not go into tournaments without preparations. At the end of the day, no matter what excuses you come up with, you still lost. It's on you to figure out why you lost and then the next time you won't do that same mistake. It's like if you went outside in the cold before a tourney set and then you blame it on cold hands.. it's your fault. lol.
I agree with that. It's just an observation that I, and probably other people, play legitimately play worse with cold hands. It's something to watch out for.

Not saying that cold hands aren't easily or relatively easily fixed.
 
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