Divinokage
Smash Legend
Wow guys.. Falco sucks? wtf.. stfu.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
no more emo gay posts from me
i need to level up
seriously
i need to understand what you are physically doing with your sticks when di'ing
di is overwhelming me and im wondering if other players experienced such a hard time learning it
and if melee really does die one day
teams should stick around
and i need serious help, i got lots of great info and advice, its just that i dont know what to do with the advice
as this is only smashboards and not apex friendlies where i can actually face to face learn
so yea im not so sure how to level up any ideas on seriously leveling up and fixing my non existant di
i need to level up
seriously
i need to understand what you are physically doing with your sticks when di'ing
di is overwhelming me and im wondering if other players experienced such a hard time learning it
and if melee really does die one day
teams should stick around
and i need serious help, i got lots of great info and advice, its just that i dont know what to do with the advice
as this is only smashboards and not apex friendlies where i can actually face to face learn
so yea im not so sure how to level up any ideas on seriously leveling up and fixing my non existant di
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Lol if you have no sort of DI and tech the same way then Falco is really bad, bottom tier
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
What? You guys have no idea what you're talking about. I think Falco has the best neutral in the game. too slow to capitalize on mistakes? He has so much control it is hard to NOT capitalize on mistakes. Although he can't always directly follow up, he controls things to the point that he should be able to capitalize on nearly every mistake, the question is how well.
If you think Fox is way greater than Falco, you're probably not understanding how to play Falco.
People won't PS lasers 50-70% of the time if you vary laser height, it just won't happen.
"Falco sucks" and you only want to play him because everyone else is gay? No non-Falco player is good except Hax? You clearly don't play melee, not do you understand how a single character works in this game.
If you think Fox is way greater than Falco, you're probably not understanding how to play Falco.
People won't PS lasers 50-70% of the time if you vary laser height, it just won't happen.
"Falco sucks" and you only want to play him because everyone else is gay? No non-Falco player is good except Hax? You clearly don't play melee, not do you understand how a single character works in this game.
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- Mar 14, 2011
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Whoa, no reason for the rage. We're all friends here.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
You guys?
No and no. I'd prefer if you'd address myself or "us" more specifically.
It's pretty blatant Fox is the best character in the game. Take that as you will as I don't think that is all that controversial nor is it something I want to fight about. However, I'd like to hear why you think otherwise unless you are arguing that Falco is easier to play in tournament when mental fatigue and ease of optimal play is a factor. Then sure he isn't totally inferior. I never spoken on the magnitude of how much greater Fox is than Falco. I just said it is clear he is better.
And secondly,
Falco's biggest flaw, other than his recovery, is his ground speed and horizontal aerial mobility which once again is common knowledge. There is some merit in saying he can't capitalize on mistakes as well as some other characters which is an opinion that once again shouldn't strike you so strangely. Falco's still great though, second best character and one of the most consistent placers.
What?
Nemy
群れ
DAT AINT FALCO!
Divinokage
Smash Legend
What makes you say that? Because to me, it is very strange.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Which part exactly, why I think his movement speed is a problem?
edit: rare kage sighting
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Probably saying he can't capitalize on mistakes as well as other characters. It is just. . . wrong.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
i dont think falco sucks ..just think his demise is coming soon ..since now ppl spend there lives tryna learn to fight falcos lol.....
im telling you once ppl learn to Power Sheild alot better and DI combos so its harder for falco to rush down and gett going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWjDzpZork
that match is an example of falcos OP tactics not working .. like lazers were pretty much usless ...good DI so couldn't get no dair combos ... plus he couldnt punish as hard as peach could punish him and his mistakes cost him stocks at times
remember melee is evolving ..like mango said even noobs are good now , before bad players were horrible can couldn't do anything . now everyone can do everything pros can do ...honestly there's gonna be a point and time where everyone is pretty good and will have great DI etc.... and falco the character who gets punished so hard for simple mistakes, who has bad predictable recovery .. whos offense relies alot on other players DI , and Stupidity lol will have a harder time when ppl get better.
im telling you once ppl learn to Power Sheild alot better and DI combos so its harder for falco to rush down and gett going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWjDzpZork
that match is an example of falcos OP tactics not working .. like lazers were pretty much usless ...good DI so couldn't get no dair combos ... plus he couldnt punish as hard as peach could punish him and his mistakes cost him stocks at times
remember melee is evolving ..like mango said even noobs are good now , before bad players were horrible can couldn't do anything . now everyone can do everything pros can do ...honestly there's gonna be a point and time where everyone is pretty good and will have great DI etc.... and falco the character who gets punished so hard for simple mistakes, who has bad predictable recovery .. whos offense relies alot on other players DI , and Stupidity lol will have a harder time when ppl get better.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I don't think power shield is that good against lasers as a general "solution" (float is a lot better). There are situations where it can lead to a successful punishment, but Falco doesn't have to risk those. Most power shield punishes depend a lot on Falco to be somewhat startled from having his own laser in his face anyways imho, so if PS really becomes wide-spread, Falco can learn to deal with that better as well.
I personally don't really mind power shield that much, most of the time my lasers are just a little "hey, I don't want to approach you on neutral terms. I'd much rather have you trying to move back to center stage, and do something in the process that I can punish" or a method to use in conjunction with dash dances to keep me safe while I again wait for something stupid to come out of my opponent. I really rarely do laser > stuff approaches, which imho are the most susceptible things to power shield. (If you read this as "My Falco is super campy/gay, and I wonder why people keep in inviting me over for melee", you're completely right :D).
On the other hand, Falco can still get a positional advantage, and once he can convert that into an actual opening his punishing game is second to none (maaaaaybe CF).
I personally don't really mind power shield that much, most of the time my lasers are just a little "hey, I don't want to approach you on neutral terms. I'd much rather have you trying to move back to center stage, and do something in the process that I can punish" or a method to use in conjunction with dash dances to keep me safe while I again wait for something stupid to come out of my opponent. I really rarely do laser > stuff approaches, which imho are the most susceptible things to power shield. (If you read this as "My Falco is super campy/gay, and I wonder why people keep in inviting me over for melee", you're completely right :D).
I think that statement isn't completely unreasonable. Falco is kinda slow, and it's a lot easier to punish whiffed things if you're fast. With say Sheik you can get a free grab a lot of the times when your opponent doesn't connect with a shffl, with Falco getting those can be super hard.
On the other hand, Falco can still get a positional advantage, and once he can convert that into an actual opening his punishing game is second to none (maaaaaybe CF).
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya but these tactics are pretty general, any character can SDI and anyone can PS.. does that really hinder Falco's gameplay? Falco is the one who dictates the pace of the match pretty much in all matchups almost except maybe Fox (Since he's insanely good at maneuvering around) maybe Peach too since shes able to make Falco change it up pretty often. I think one thing you guys failed to mention is that Falco's moveset is great, it's generally very fast and can beat a lot of moves.. it is exactly why he can put on so much pressure because he has setups he can get away with without being too fearful of what can come. It's also easy to bait someone into action because you can stop his DD with varying laser heights and he'll have to do something else very soon. If the opposing player isnt chasing down Falco then you will likely lose, a good Falco will not get baited into really bad positions, you are the one that has to put him in those positions.
Like in SF when someone has a better fireball than you, you have to get in or else youll just keep getting damaged for sitting back.
Like in SF when someone has a better fireball than you, you have to get in or else youll just keep getting damaged for sitting back.
Landry
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
- Messages
- 839
Armada beating PP doesn't really say anything about their respective characters. The match is between two individuals and obviously Armada got the better of PP in that match. That doesn't mean that Falco's fundamental tactics are flawed just because Armada can get around some of PP's tricks. The metagame is always changing - people will adapt to Falco and the Falcos will adapt to counterbalance this. Everything is shifting and re-centering all the time which is part of what makes this game so great. All in all, Falco is still probably going to remain the most consistently high placing character in NTSC for a while now.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
It looks to me more like PP was playing the best player in the world who was playing a character that Falco has a relatively hard time combo'ing because she is a floaty. Falco can combo Peach pretty well but it becomes exponentially harder with good DI and good DI isn't exclusive to elite players. Also Peach happens to be able to function in neutral in such a way that she is still potent and can avoid lasers, that is peach exclusive. Having good DI is pretty simple and once you learn the combo DI for specific combos it is not something that is hard to execute at all. Falco doesn't rely on other players being bad as much as you think because generally when you watch high level matches the players know what they are doing and are always trying their best to DI away from the hardest combo-er in the game.
If Falco isn't great then who is?
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Everyone is learning how to beat falco because of they don't know how to they will lose to every scrub falco, aka about 30% of competitive players, and get destroyed at every tournament.
Falco is not the only one who suffers from his attacks being di able. Just because your opponent can dI doesn't mean you can't follow up, it just means those follow ups won't be free, mindless, reflexive 0-death combos.
I'm not going to waste any more energy trying to claim that falco is good, can combo etc. If you all think falco is so bad and is so hard to combo with, try playing a character you think it is easy with.
Falco is not the only one who suffers from his attacks being di able. Just because your opponent can dI doesn't mean you can't follow up, it just means those follow ups won't be free, mindless, reflexive 0-death combos.
I'm not going to waste any more energy trying to claim that falco is good, can combo etc. If you all think falco is so bad and is so hard to combo with, try playing a character you think it is easy with.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya just because someone DIs in a way that is unexpected doesnt mean you can't do anything about it.. it's on you to trap them doing **** DI or mix it up and do another move which will keep your advantage over your opponent... sometimes you'll have to sit back a little too, it's all part of it. The strongest players know how to **** you over. Falco is ridiculous in the proper hands, perhaps you'd need to expand your wisdom about the game, Tachi.
Just remember that everybody is struggling one way or another.. it's always going to be a tough battle even if your character is the best.
Playing a top tier is difficult on it's own because almost everybody knows the matchup already, to beat that you pretty much have to be better than your opponent, its already pretty good if know the matchup better than he does, if not you're the one going to get drowned in pools doing the same basic stuff everyone does.
Just remember that everybody is struggling one way or another.. it's always going to be a tough battle even if your character is the best.
Playing a top tier is difficult on it's own because almost everybody knows the matchup already, to beat that you pretty much have to be better than your opponent, its already pretty good if know the matchup better than he does, if not you're the one going to get drowned in pools doing the same basic stuff everyone does.
Bones0
Smash Legend
No one is disputing that Falco has a lot of control. Controlling the pace of a match and the positioning of your opponent isn't the same as capitalizing on mistakes. If Marth whiffs an ftilt at tipper spacing vs. a DDing Fox/Falcon/Sheik/Marth, they can all just react with a quick aerial or run up grab. Falco is too slow to reach him, so all he can do is increase his level of control by SHLing towards Marth. Of course this is a great situation, but not as good as having actually gotten a punish. Where most top tiers can see an opening and immediately punish, Falco has to find openings, but all he can do is increase his pressure/control until it reaches the boiling point and the opponent is forced to roll/spotdodge/jump/make a really bad decision as opposed to a very subtle mistake.
If you don't think people can learn to PS lasers ~50% of the time, watch Ice vs. Mango from Beast 3. If Falco players start concerning themselves with anti-PS tactics they can surely reduce that to something like 25%, but accounting for PSing definitely hinders Falco's neutral game even more than it is right now.
This "Fox is clearly the best" continues to baffle me. He has some of the worst combos of all the top tiers, gets comboed super hard, KOed really early, and despite being the most popular character, he has the worst top-level representation for YEARS. If you think Fox is the best in the game, WHATEVER, I can't convince everyone who believes that of the contrary, but don't act like it's "a given" or "obvious".
I agree with your comment that lasers are not a general solution (would it be egotistical to think that you stole that phrasing from me? lol), but one thing I think is funny is that people who see the limitations of PSing lasers tend to not see the same limitations in Falco's lasers in general. If PSing and counterattacking immediately isn't feasible for other characters with much faster approaches than Falco, why do people so often act like Falco can hitconfirm lasers and rush in himself? Not saying you believe any of that, but I just wanted to make that connection for pepole who hadn't thought about it. A laser is a laser whether it was PSed or not, so I'd like to see people moving away from the consensus that lasers = free approaches when they already think PSing lasers doesn't mean guaranteed punishes.
With all of this in mind, I don't want anyone thinking that I am saying Falco is bad just because I am trashing his neutral game... All that means is Falco players need to improve their gameplay in neutral to counterbalance his natural tendency to suck in neutral, and simultaneously maintain his really great aspects. Sure, getting in is really hard with Falco, but god damn does he have the tools needed once he gets in. Every character has weak and strong aspects, but ignoring or misunderstanding your character's weaknesses won't help you in the long run. Like many people, I can feel that sensation of Falco's "time" slipping away. It seems like other characters are catching up with Armada's Peach leading the pack. The truth is that's only what's occurring amongst a handful of top level players. If Falco falls off, it's only going to be because of what happens among those top few players, and if a Falco main somewhere down the line is truly the most skilled, Falco's limitations won't stop him from developing the metagame to a point where Falco is once again the best.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Dunno about the phrasing, if I hear something fun I'm using that as well if the situation arises but rarely remember where I originally heard it. So it might very well be, that I first heard it from you (latest addition to the pool of memorable quotes: "that's so unfortunate" from the KoC2 commentary :D)
And I do totally agree with lasers not being free approaches. At least they shouldn't be, and I'd really love to see more people hitting Falco out of braindead laser > nair/dair approaches :x
(latest addition to the pool of memorable quotes: "that's so unfortunate" from the KoC2 commentary :D)And I do totally agree with lasers not being free approaches. At least they shouldn't be, and I'd really love to see more people hitting Falco out of braindead laser > nair/dair approaches :x
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you dthrow someone below a low FoD platform, you both teleport up onto the plat. I'm gonna try using it to get some surprise KOs. They'll think they can tech roll away, and then the plat edge will prevent them from rolling out of range of my charged dsmash. >:D
why was that set cited as an example of anything
boo hisss
edit: my edgeguarding was good tho lol
boo hisss
edit: my edgeguarding was good tho lol
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Why am i defending the Falco boards for you. lol. Say something!
Bones0
Smash Legend
What was Cactuar telling you after game 1?
Voltz
Smash Journeyman
Lol, people arguing about Falco's viability. If Falco sucks, then why does he lack a counter?
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
How much do you believe that Fox has some of the worst combos of the top tiers?
Then the other things you cited are weaknesses that Falco shares with Fox but with a worse recovery.
I believe the burden of proof is on Falco because I am confident most people will tell you Fox is the better character.
I still think it's "given" and "obvious."
You can argue Falco is easier to place with in tournament. That's fine and probably true.
I remembered you tried to convince me before that Falco vs. Ganon isn't a terrible MU for Ganon. In all seriousness I want to know how you come to these conclusions.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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Fox's combo game is just trickier than Peach's, or Falco's, or even Marth's. And what he lacks in combos, he makes up for with his insane ability to play around the cast with his superior positioning tools.
That being said, arguing that his combos are more subject to "fizzling out" than other characters, and so he isn't as strong as they are in that specific regard, is valid.
That being said, arguing that his combos are more subject to "fizzling out" than other characters, and so he isn't as strong as they are in that specific regard, is valid.
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
i truly believe marth is the best character in da game
then fox
then hax
no doubt falco is clearly mid tier
then fox
then hax
no doubt falco is clearly mid tier
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Fox has the worst combos? He gets KO'd really easily? Wait what?
I'm not even goin to argue about whether or not he's the best... but those statements are just like...completely false wtf.
He does a better job living than marth sheik falco and falcon, at the very least. His combo game is way shorter than the other good characters, but it's just as effective. Oh look drill waveshine grab upthrow uair uair I just did like 50% for free... this is bad compared to the other top tiers now?
I'm not even goin to argue about whether or not he's the best... but those statements are just like...completely false wtf.
He does a better job living than marth sheik falco and falcon, at the very least. His combo game is way shorter than the other good characters, but it's just as effective. Oh look drill waveshine grab upthrow uair uair I just did like 50% for free... this is bad compared to the other top tiers now?
D
Deleted member
Guest
i mean, fox combos. observe > moves > observe. hard combo.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
you should develop some hard Falco theory or at least abuse your access to PP and bounce those ideas off me via 5 hour skype convo
If you could I'd also like to hear something about the Marth Falco MU as Marth. I'm not sure how Marth deals with lasers.
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Said much better than I could've.
D
Deleted member
Guest
from neutral, marth deals with lasers the same way every character deals with lasers; you lose to them. outside of neutral, marth's job is to kill falco better than falco can shoot.
don't punt your combo.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
falco ganon is like 45 ...55 now ...alot of ganons now will wreck a falco
Bones0
Smash Legend
I didn't say he is KOed easily, I said he is KOed early. He is the 4th lightest character in the game, so a Falcon knee or Marth tipper is obviously going to kill him earlier than Peach or Falcon.
Yeah, that's a great combo, but how often does it actually happen in high level tournament matches? You can SDI at 4 different points in that "combo" to escape, and uthrow uair on its own doesn't really work on a lot of characters because of their weight. Fox is so good because he is able to position himself quickly and precisely, but I would hardly consider positioning yourself for uair chains a combo. It's not like Marth's uair chains where the opponent is actually in stun the whole time and uair is pretty much DI-proof. Fox is a first-hit junkie, but I wouldn't equate that to having good combos. I'm sure if someone went through some matches for each character and averaged the number of 02ds that Fox has significantly less than pretty much every top tier.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
i think marth and shiek , captain.. live longer....... fox get bodied when he gets hit hard..but since he's so fast and agile , he can avoid getting hit ..and his recovery is slow and east to react to ..which is why usually when fox is of stage he dies , but he's the best charecter without a doubt even though i think marths will learn again and take that spot
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Fzes5TxHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IPJ7n0RlOc
fox ass recovery against marth ..to say back up my statement . everytime fox off the stage he dies ....dont make me get some m2k vids, most of the top tiers wreck fox when he's recovering as well not just math
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IPJ7n0RlOc
fox ass recovery against marth ..to say back up my statement . everytime fox off the stage he dies ....dont make me get some m2k vids, most of the top tiers wreck fox when he's recovering as well not just math
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
I was going to say that powershield rate was at times ridiculous..but it's SHEIK's shield, not marth's. That said, I was around 70-80% back when I mained marth. I really don't think 99% is infeasible for sheik though. Also falco doesn't need to hit confirm lasers or anything like that..he merely needs to hit lasers, move fast enough that the opponent has frame disadvantage and is likely to use defensive options, and then dashdance..instant massive advantage
you way underrate lasers. falco is the only char that i can take games off everyone i've played in Nova MD while not L-canceling.
your opponent cannot go for a powershield and miss 25% of the time and still be relevant in top level play. At high level opponents pin game is too good for you to attempt a powershield and fail and get away with it. probability of you getting punished for failing a powershield is higher than that of you getting a killgrab off of the powershield unless your opponent sucks at the game. Even in Ice's recent game most of the powershields he hit didn't provide a solid opening of any kind, while every attempt was a chance to get pinned in shield and forced to play from shield...and most chars have a worse out of shield than sheik
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I assumed we were speaking in a relevant context not just an isolated "he dies early because he is light". Yes, he is light, but everything is relative in this game. I'd argue that fox kills most of his opponents *effectively* earlier than they kill him. So yeah, you're right... he dies earlier to a move off the side than peach or falcon do, but bairing falcon off the stage around 60 already spells death for him: 100% guaranteed. Also, weight vs fall speed; once again, this is all relative to fox. Fox kills off the top earlier than most characters can kill him off the side, so for the sake of fox's best kill tools they actually die earlier than he does.
You can SDI at 4 different points? First of all, with realistic DI that is exhibited at top level play you can definitely follow their DI on your dair. Second of all, SDIing your shine doesn't prevent them from getting grabbed/upsmashed/whatever you want to do. Third of all, I don't believe anyone can consistently SDI fox's upair right now assuming the fox places it well and drifts to match their best SDI options off a low % upthrow. Fourth of all, this whole situation leads to DI traps where DIs that get you out of fox's uair stuff tend to get you ***** by things like upthrow -->bair-->uptilt-->whatever you want because you know, it's fox. Generally speaking, even if you're not in hitstun all the time like with marth's uair stuff, if it's guaranteed it's still a combo for all intents and purposes. It's like, if sheik is directly above me on FD and I uptilt as she falls to me she can either get hit or she can jump...but once she jumps she's still under me and gets upsmashed or baired or DD grabbed... but if she airdodges I just punish the lag of that. This is completely separate from fox's "legit" combo game, where he definitely has guaranteed strings, but this is another part which makes him definitely have 0-death potential. Fox grabs marth on FD: upthrow bair, DD grab landing, upthrow bair uptilt (or another bair)-->ends up with marth at like 65% and either off stage or at a % where the next hit leads to an upsmash/uair. What does falco/sheik/peach/puff/marth do if they hit marth at 0? Way less potential as I see it.
As far as how many characters it works on, I'm pretty sure fox can get a guaranteed hit (at some % or another) off throw on fox, falco, marth, sheik, peach, puff, falcon, and ICs... you know, the entire list of viable characters. But even outside of that, vs fox/falco/falcon one upsmash easily leads to two more relatively for free so your EV off an upsmash is like 50% easy which is way more than what most characters get guaranteed. On sheik/peach/falcon he definitely gets shine combos that lead to them being above you off stage where fox also gets guaranteed hits...
Fox might not convert his stray hits into combos as well as falco or marth or something, but if he lands his ideal hits for combos he combos you just as hard as the rest of the cast easily.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Also, as far as powershielding lasers goes:
The opponent can't react (At most spacings) to the height of a laser and choose to powershield vs jump over it. So as the falco player just consciously pick your laser heights. Intentionally shoot more low lasers, and then when they get powershielded you just SH aerial over the laser as if it's not even there; if your opponent is powershielding lasers they're generally shielding-->immediate aerial/WD OoS both of which will get stuffed by your aerial.
Obviously this isn't full proof in every situation, but it negates the effectiveness of powershielding tremendously and keeps your opponent in a mixup situation where powershielding actually hinders them pretty much just as much as shielding the laser. I'm just surprised this isn't talked about more as a good anti PS tactic
doublepost cuz **** it
The opponent can't react (At most spacings) to the height of a laser and choose to powershield vs jump over it. So as the falco player just consciously pick your laser heights. Intentionally shoot more low lasers, and then when they get powershielded you just SH aerial over the laser as if it's not even there; if your opponent is powershielding lasers they're generally shielding-->immediate aerial/WD OoS both of which will get stuffed by your aerial.
Obviously this isn't full proof in every situation, but it negates the effectiveness of powershielding tremendously and keeps your opponent in a mixup situation where powershielding actually hinders them pretty much just as much as shielding the laser. I'm just surprised this isn't talked about more as a good anti PS tactic
doublepost cuz **** it