PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[silentSWAG]

its all about using the stage to angle your approach

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Okay I'm having some problems vs marth

Some stuff I need some help with

1. If you're pressuring his shield, how do you deal with both WD back OoS and WD forward past you OoS? He does a move almost immediately afterward so I can't really react to it
2. I'm not really sure what to do when marth comes in with a move like dtilt or fair, and then immediately dashes away. When I try to punish the move's lag, I end up whiffing because Marth dashes away faster than I can approach, and then I get grabbed lol. I try to laser too but a lot of the time he punishes the start up of the laser because he sees it coming, or he powershields it (This particular Marth is quite good at powershielding in certain situations).

It's kinda hard for me to explain the exact spacing of this marth for #2, so sorry if it's hard to visualize.

 

[Bones0]

But like ... if you thought about it for more than ... a second ...

Yeah, I guess it's one of those things I knew subconsciously but never really thought about. Apparently I do combo with the end of the dair. lol

 

[Deleted member]

how to minimize the impact of laser startup on falco's neutral game

only shoot them when they can't hit you. this means either being too far away or closer with superior positioning. that way, you can't be punished for the startup during falco's neutral game.

i think i'm going to make a guide on how to use lasers and how to not use lasers. using ONLY kevin's videos, because lol

good luck in europe kevin.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay I'm having some problems vs marth

Some stuff I need some help with

1. If you're pressuring his shield, how do you deal with both WD back OoS and WD forward past you OoS? He does a move almost immediately afterward so I can't really react to it
2. I'm not really sure what to do when marth comes in with a move like dtilt or fair, and then immediately dashes away. When I try to punish the move's lag, I end up whiffing because Marth dashes away faster than I can approach, and then I get grabbed lol. I try to laser too but a lot of the time he punishes the start up of the laser because he sees it coming, or he powershields it (This particular Marth is quite good at powershielding in certain situations).

It's kinda hard for me to explain the exact spacing of this marth for #2, so sorry if it's hard to visualize.

1. Shine grab so he does neither?

Do an immediate aerial close to him so it covers him moving OOS at the same time also works.

Finally you also have lasering him to catch him going either way.

There's also various positioning shenanigans you could probably do to counter both but if you can cut off one of his directions OOS it lets you control him a lot easier.


2. Dash closer and take your stage. Laser at different times/heights so Marth's can't powershield as easily as he wants to. It kinda depends on what he does after the dash back honestly.

If you can shoot Marth out of his lag on his Fair or Dtilt that would be the best thing to do. It ensures more control over the situation.

only shoot them when they can't hit you. this means either being too far away or closer with superior positioning. that way, you can't be punished for the startup during falco's neutral game.

i think i'm going to make a guide on how to use lasers and how to not use lasers. using ONLY kevin's videos, because lol

good luck in europe kevin.

Does this include powershielding?

You should break down superior positioning a little for the folks at home.

THANKS and thanks lol

 

[leffen]

You can't really be "safe" while lasering...if they read it they can always get something good
If you're too far away for them to punish, then they can still just run and take all your stage control, approaching loses to just to putting up a move first, etc


also pp i'll be arriving at noon tomorrrow... looking forward to playing (teams) with you

 

[Dr Peepee]

So then it would make a lot of sense to discuss ways in which to disguise lasers and their attempts right?


Hyped dude, also we should go on the mountain trip together because why not

 

[Strong Badam]

Wow, never knew that. What's the difference in shield stun?

7 frames vs 6 frames

 

[Bones0]

this hate is really unnecessary <.<


ya'll dudes should talk about some cool stuff, like how to minimize the impact of laser startup on falco's neutral game or how to abuse laser/FH control to the fullest

stuff this thread deals with yeah!

(will post longer when im home/make sure I have lots of time to type)

I've noticed I get punished while lasering a lot less when I'm lasering from platforms. Isai dropped lasers are obviously the most common form, but I think WLing off of plats into lasers (either away or towards the opponent) could yield a lot of good results. Let's say you are both near the middle of DL. You can sort of draw them in by dashing back and jumping. Then you WL off the plat and come down with a laser. If they close the gap too much, you can always dair/bair instead of laser. You can also bail from the whole thing pretty quickly too. Just WL away instead of towards them, or WL down onto the plat and move from there.

Okay I'm having some problems vs marth

Some stuff I need some help with

1. If you're pressuring his shield, how do you deal with both WD back OoS and WD forward past you OoS? He does a move almost immediately afterward so I can't really react to it
2. I'm not really sure what to do when marth comes in with a move like dtilt or fair, and then immediately dashes away. When I try to punish the move's lag, I end up whiffing because Marth dashes away faster than I can approach, and then I get grabbed lol. I try to laser too but a lot of the time he punishes the start up of the laser because he sees it coming, or he powershields it (This particular Marth is quite good at powershielding in certain situations).

It's kinda hard for me to explain the exact spacing of this marth for #2, so sorry if it's hard to visualize.

1. Firstly, you have to realize that you pretty much never hit WD away OoS with an attack because of how Marth crouches. The only way you will ever hit it is to do an early aerial drifting towards them, which is obviously horrible if they simply wait you'll just get grabbed. The few things you can work with are:

- Shine Grab: The only way they will really escape is buffer spot dodge or roll, and Marth can't really punish a missed grab after either anyway. Decent punish quality.
- Laser: RSHL out of shine is particularly good when you're on their back because you're not at risk of getting grabbed, and people almost always WD OoS because they know they aren't at risk of getting grabbed either. If the Marth is good, they will expect this laser and do their best to fend off your approach, so make sure you aren't just robotically lasering into a predictable SHFFL every time you will get destroyed. Mix it up by doing another SHL into shine/grab/whatever, or just run right up and grab/shine/shine-grab. Marth can get his shield up in time to block pretty much anything because his WD goes so far and Falco is so slow, so don't do anything risky like dash attack unless you hit confirm a laser.
- Multishine: This only works if you are super deep on their shield, but it's perfectly safe and has great punish options.

WD OoS cross up is actually really bad. If they do it to you, it means you're doing late aerials every time so they are confident they can just go right through you. Mix in more fade away early aerials.


2. I know exactly what you're talking about. The classic mistake I see Falco players making in this sort of situation is they try to run away. You're pretty much never able to run away from Marth because he's just faster and has that extra length of his dash attack. The other mistake is they try to run him over. lol You sort of just have to deal with being in that weird limbo of spacing. You can't consistently attack or escape, so you just have to play to their options to see what's best. If they like to dash back for a pivot grab, it's usually pretty safe to back off (watch for dash attacks though). If they are closer to you trying to get a hit instead of a grab, that is usually a good time to go on the offensive.

Overall this is just a bad position to be in in the first place. If you let Marth tip moves on your shield all game, you WILL lose. It's the equivalent of spacie pressure, except even safer... If you have some vids vs. Marth, I will critique them for you.

only shoot them when they can't hit you. this means either being too far away or closer with superior positioning. that way, you can't be punished for the startup during falco's neutral game.

i think i'm going to make a guide on how to use lasers and how to not use lasers. using ONLY kevin's videos, because lol

good luck in europe kevin.

That would be sweet.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Bones' response to me: Wavelanding off platforms is pretty solid, especially since it's harder to react to wavelands than straight(debateably more obvious) SHs as there are more options to choose from when wavelanding like you said.

I feel like this gives up stages a lot and won't work as well on smaller stages anyway when your escape routes are far smaller but I'd certainly be open to discussion on that.

Those fast waveland Bairs Axe did/does mixed with lasers could be quite potent in this case....but against Marth or Sheik I'm somewhat worried about how much speed I should be concerned about. After all they have moves that can cover the entire platform(Sheik Bair Marth Fair/Uair for example) and I wouldn't want to position myself to get read/hit more easily if I could help it. Perhaps doing this as an occasional thing in those particular matchups is better as it draws them in whenever they think I might jump again?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I would use it sparingly vs. chars like Marth or Falcon who have huge hitboxes above them. You don't always have to do it out of neutral though either. You can do it when they feel threatened and are trying to escape your SHFFL range or if they just missed a tech or something. Like so...

 

[Dr Peepee]

That was some unnecessary shenanigans

....

but it did look cool

 

[Jake13]

Pp, I noticed you and mango doing full hop double laser (one high, one low)

I haven't seen that since the forward and shizwiz falco ditto'ing back in the day. I've always thought that was better than DJDL

Good stuff

 

[Dr Peepee]

Apparently, it is much better.

I imagine there are times when DJ DL could be useful as well. I have much learning to do about the ditto /shrug

 

[mers]

Why is it better? I mean, I get why keeping your double jump is good, but you guys seemed to do them even when very far away, and I always like the quickness of DJDL.

 

[Dr Peepee]

DJ'ing isn't fast enough because of how high you go. It could be okay if you land on a platform though.

The idea is that Dair threatens most of their attacks but sometimes you don't wanna trade your Dair with their Bair, so you laser just as you start to fall and drift back a little so their Bair will get shot and then you have advantage. The second laser covers your landing perfectly especially since you drifted backwards and surprises most people.

DJ'ing is slightly faster but trades are still likely and that'll be worse for you then. Not usually worth it but maybe the extra speed can be good. Mango doesn't care too much for speed he just kinda flops around lol.

I like speed so I guess I should use DJ'ing more farther away for faster lasers haha. Fair idea. =)

 

[Kyandid]

Hey guys. Finally got my capture card working, and looking for some critique.

The first two games were friendlies with items on.

 

[Bones0]

Your approaches look a little too linear, but they seem effective so... *shrug*

 

[silentSWAG]

Trolled me

 

[Divinokage]

Lmfao, good stuff. If I could critique, you do a little too many grounded moves and dash attacks, mix it up with dairs as it's Falco's best combo starter.. also some Nairs to stuff approaches.

 

[Kyandid]

Lmfao, good stuff. If I could critique, you do a little too many grounded moves and dash attacks, mix it up with dairs as it's Falco's best combo starter.. also some Nairs to stuff approaches.

Thanks for the advice. In the third clip, I accidentally f-aired when I meant to n-air which is why Falco kinda just spazzed out for like six seconds.

 

[Strong Badam]

LMFAoooo wow I'm dying

 

[Mogwai]

I really think your approach in the fourth game was much better. Very clean use of dair, you're certainly learnding from your mistakes.

 

[silentSWAG]

hey pp. is there certain options u use when u recover from .... lets say sheiks b throw ( off stage )
i heard from someone that u do like 3 options depending on what u think the edge guarder is going for

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

@ Bones/PP: Thanks a lot guys!

 

[SSBMLahti]

I recall there being a shield dropping thread or something laying around a while back.

Can anyone direct me to it? I want to try some stuff with shield dropping through platforms and lasering rather than isai dropping.

 

[Bones0]

Just search YouTube for "shai dropping". It's on shai's account. Shield dropping lasers (as Falco) is unnecessarily difficult on every side platform except for DL (where it's still pretty hard). I use it all the time from the top platform though, and it's incredibly useful.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey pp. is there certain options u use when u recover from .... lets say sheiks b throw ( off stage )
i heard from someone that u do like 3 options depending on what u think the edge guarder is going for

If I think they'll run off/stand too close to the edge I DJ Dair

If I think they'll do an action to cover my DJ to the edge/wait then I DJ backwards(and then it re-depends afterward)

If I think they'll try to cover my edgejump backward then I hold the jump and drift closer to the edge so I can walljump or grab the edge(depends again)


If I was smart I'd shine stall before making more decisions offstage LOL


generally that other stuff works fine for me though

 

[Bones0]

I use shine stall a lot, but it's not all it's cracked up to be. You're often better off choosing an option and just committing to it instead of shine stalling to try and figure out which one they're covering. Quite often the shine stall just gives them a chance to better analyze your options and how to cover them. It seems most useful when you're playing someone who likes to commit to edgeguard decisions immediately (usually that means running off, but not always). This is all from Marth exp, so idk how much of it carries over to matchups where the opponent cannot deal with Phantasm as easily.

 

[shadrach kabango]

smash is not supposed to be something that tires you out, even if you're playing at your peak.

This is inaccurate.

Smash is quite energy intensive. Anything that requires intense concentration is burning glucose. Even when you have compartmentalized much of the game, the game is so fluid that there is too much novelty to keep track of without intense physical information processing.

Here's an excerpt for a fun book that just went into this part in detail:

"That these are certainly physical information processing operations in our material brains would lead me to suspect that the more unusual and the more complex the images that we must mentally assemble, the more time and the more metabolic energy will be consumed by doing so. Undoubtedly, this is why contemplation of very difficult and abstract problem solutions ... must involve a lot of time and metabolic energy expenditure, which we experience as "mental effort," in William James' terms, "the effort of attention," "the essential phenomenon of will." Contrast this "effort" with the much smaller "effort" required to think of very familiar things such as trees, birds, your dog, or the ideas of eating breakfast or "starting the car." These ideas are probably represented in our brains by assemblages of neurons very similar to Hebb's cell assemblies (see Chapter 2). Those that are simpler and more familiar depend upon synaptic connections fewer in number, and because of the more frequently repeated exposure to the familiar ideas they represent in the world, the connections are probably already at "full strength," and so such ideas require less mental effort, less "effort of attention."

There's more I can write up if that piqued your interest.

Pee Pee,

Meditation is certainly one of the most effective ways of strengthening your mental processing. There are a lot of studies that discuss how you can improve your performance by practicing mindfulness and related aspects of psychology that are certainly pertinent to your competitive interests.

 

[Dr Peepee]

great post, I am qute interested in everything you said indeed. How would you recommend I have lots of energy to handle the tasks outside of meditation and I guess sleeping well? diet too? You mentioned glucose so I'd want more carbohydrates(and maybe some simple sugars from like fruits) as well?

I'll look into the book and the studies you linked after I return home from Europe. For now the information and any further questions you are willing to answer would be appreciated =)

 

[unknown522]

Eat oatmeal for breakfast with eggs + some kind of meat (fat is important to eat especially in the morning so that your body has the whole day to digest/process it). Fat gives you energy, kind of like sugar. But the body doesn't know what to do with sugar, so it just goes straight to the crapper.

Boiled broccoli is great, and some kind of fruit (bananas are best, followed by oranges). Try to avoid dry fruits like mangos and stuff.

Almonds are a great snack as well. They kind of fill you up and provide protein.

Edit: oh yeah, salads are ****.

Also fish is a great lunch/dinner item. Even if you fry it (the problem in Ontario is the cost of fish -_-). Well, tuna and salmon are kind of cheap though

Edit 2: oh yeah, try to avoid starchy foods like potatoes (so ofc French fries, chips, etc). They don't provide much in terms of nutrition, but they fill you up (it does make taking a crap harder though, and makes you gassy).

 

[Metakill]

Try to avoid dry fruits like mangos]

I love the irony of this lol

 

[Divinokage]

Mangos are dry, really?

 

[Dark Hart]

EAT OATMEAL FOR BREAKFAST

 

[unknown522]

Yeah dudes. Been working on this stuff

 

[Coffeeblack]

2012 metagame: proper diet and meditation

 

[CableCho57]

then i'll be the best player in the world.

Whats the timing for ledge teching marth's counter while upbing with falco? The timing is different from a regular attack like his fsmash right?

 

[Bones0]

The timing is the same from when you get hit by the actual attack. The reason counter makes you tech later is because you get stuck in the counter hitlag and then Marth has to go through the whole swinging motion as you're frozen.

 

[Twinkles]

Having trouble with specific matchups? Falco just too tiring for you to play? Looking to broaden your character diversity?

Why not pick up Samus?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313501
An excellent tutorial to get you started!