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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Brookman

Smash Hero
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Oct 20, 2005
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pikachu
I would think that using the c-stick to buffer the jump for shine oos would make it incredibly difficult to do grounded shine oos.

You no longer have control over exactly when you jump. If you buffer it with c-stick, you would jump on the first avalable frame. Meaning you would have to learn the shield stun timing on literally every moves because they are all different. That's really dumb.

Just learn to grounded shine oos in the general period after stun ends and you'll be golden.

Also, westballz is the future of falco godddddaammn
What I read:

"I haven't even bothered to try this technique but I'm going to write it off based on some imaginary philosophies i just made up in my head.

Just stick to using a tactic that is "good enough" instead of pushing the limits of gameplay.

Also, westballz is the future of falco"


Get off mah nuts nooob
 

ShroudedOne

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If you use the Cstick to act as a secondary jump button (like you would use X/Y, not simply holding up on the Cstick waiting for lag to end), then it becomes a very attractive idea. We're not trying to "buffer" the jump, that's the wrong wording. We're trying to time when we would press up on the Cstick so that we can jump out of shield when shieldstun is over (like we would do with X/Y). The Cstick just makes it easier to go from the jump input to the B input for shine. If that makes sense...
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Me: "I'd money match you but you play me for free."
Kevin: "Scumbag Umbreon."

:)
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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Atlanta
I bet PP's salty he didn't think of that one LOL

Also:

"The only difference between your marth and the marths in 2003 is that when they fsmashed they actually hit the opponent"
 

ThatGuy

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
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Laval-Ouest, Quebec, Canada
So I learned today that if you fire a laser on the opponent's shine and shine it back, you both get locked into the shine and your opponent's will break first. Gotta say it was pretty shocking but hilarious.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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There's a video with Zhu and someone else and that happens. It's at the beginning of a Poke Stadium match, but I don't remember the opponent.
 

flaw

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
197
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Rochester, NY
Here's some sloppy matches of me vs jesse (he messed up a ton here) if anyone wants to take a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eye63G3PVRs&feature=relmfu

Like I was saying before he's really aggressive and I feel out of control the entire match. I have trouble with inputting the commands to do stuff a frame or 2 too early so a lot of the time I just sit there b/c my utilt doesn't come out or I randomly smash attack because I didn't jump. I'm gonna work on tech skill as much as possible the next few weeks, but if someone could explicitly say some examples that would be helpful. (I know shield pressure timing/variety/spacing, wavelanding, and inputting asap after getting up are things that need work).

I did some good late aerials and changed my laser game a bit. Gonna work on shine-grab and double shines to beat his shine OoS after my shine. Also my tech chasing is awful, sometimes I run away from him for no reason while he's on the ground, lol. Stupid muscle memory from doing practice drills.

Jesse will just wait for me to short hop to laser and run up and attack me before the laser comes out. He spaces just outside of my ftilt range and waits for me to do something. If I'm near the ledge, that gives me no way to free up some space or retreating laser. That's why sometimes I just try to run behind him without doing anything, to try to condition him to back off a little. It gets me shined a lot though.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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wtf kevin why didn't you just ask me to play you?

you lazy bit i had a terrible week.
the f***

PP you buffering jump out of shield with C stick yet??? makes JC shine out of shield E-Z P-Z
You know I think I've been told this before but wrote it off because I didn't want to use the C stick. I think this time that I should try it. =)

YOU CAn BUFFeR tHE SHiNE YOU NOOb. HOLD B
er

random note so i can remember later

kevin remind me to talk about your dumb shine grabs
sometimes I just want to practice them!

I bet PP's salty he didn't think of that one LOL

Also:

"The only difference between your marth and the marths in 2003 is that when they fsmashed they actually hit the opponent"
this all makes me mad

Here's some sloppy matches of me vs jesse (he messed up a ton here) if anyone wants to take a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eye63G3PVRs&feature=relmfu

Like I was saying before he's really aggressive and I feel out of control the entire match. I have trouble with inputting the commands to do stuff a frame or 2 too early so a lot of the time I just sit there b/c my utilt doesn't come out or I randomly smash attack because I didn't jump. I'm gonna work on tech skill as much as possible the next few weeks, but if someone could explicitly say some examples that would be helpful. (I know shield pressure timing/variety/spacing, wavelanding, and inputting asap after getting up are things that need work).

I did some good late aerials and changed my laser game a bit. Gonna work on shine-grab and double shines to beat his shine OoS after my shine. Also my tech chasing is awful, sometimes I run away from him for no reason while he's on the ground, lol. Stupid muscle memory from doing practice drills.

Jesse will just wait for me to short hop to laser and run up and attack me before the laser comes out. He spaces just outside of my ftilt range and waits for me to do something. If I'm near the ledge, that gives me no way to free up some space or retreating laser. That's why sometimes I just try to run behind him without doing anything, to try to condition him to back off a little. It gets me shined a lot though.
I'll watch later I'm annoyed atm.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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noted

why so annoyed PP?
Twitch wants to play less with me =( I played him today though so maybe I will get him to play more if things work out.
There's also probably part of an annoyance with myself and how I've come to see my current smash state but that's all silly and self-critical and I'm working on changing it anyway. =p




Also I discovered caffeine is a good idea after Civil War this weekend. People should ingest it in some form for focus reasons.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
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Toronto, Ontario
ahh, it's like that huh? Just beat him up. You're older.

jk

You don't like your smash state? You usually seem pretty calm and stuff. But ofc you know yourself better than I do.
 

Dr Peepee

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I didn't mean emotionally so much as my improvement as a player and where I'm looking to take my game.

Being that guy that was considered good then loses to everyone is not fun and it also makes me second guess a lot of stuff <.< It doesn't make me feel bad like it used to it's just really awkward lol.

I do have some good ideas about how to resolve a lot of problems I'm currently facing so I'm not feeling terribly overwhelmed.
 

Divinokage

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PP, you shouldn't compare yourself to others this way. What you want out of something is your absolute worth, it's unquestionable. Just center yourself and continue to be how you want to be. =P
 

Dr Peepee

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PP, you shouldn't compare yourself to others this way. What you want out of something is your absolute worth, it's unquestionable. Just center yourself and continue to be how you want to be. =P
It certainly does help to take myself out of all of that, yeah. =p

green tea *****
illest CP
 

JPOBS

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Mos Eisley
What I read:

"I haven't even bothered to try this technique but I'm going to write it off based on some imaginary philosophies i just made up in my head.

Just stick to using a tactic that is "good enough" instead of pushing the limits of gameplay.

Also, westballz is the future of falco"


Get off mah nuts nooob
Lmfao shut up n****a
 

Bones0

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Jarrettsville, MD
@PP
I think it comes down to just NEVER over/underestimating anyone. I've struggled with this a lot in the past. It seemed like you did this at NWM vs. Westballz because once you did your focus meditation you tapped pretty hard. I'm not in your head though, so maybe it was something different.

There have been several players I overestimated that I thought I would get destroyed by, and then as I play game one I realize I'm not even worse than them, but then I end up losing because I can't get a grasp on their skill level. Idk, it's really weird. It's like I need a power level scouter for everyone or else I don't know how to expect them to play. I can't tell if I should be ready for them to rush me down with perfect tech skill or if they are just going to roll and DD grab me all game because I'm expecting a bunch of complicated stuff. Then of course underestimating is even worse. I almost got knocked out of my pool at Apex because I played someone I had destroyed at Zenith previously, and barely edged out a 2-1 because he had improved so much and I took him for granted.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Something nice about knowing a ton about Melee is that you can understand pretty much everything another player is doing, so if you think about what they are doing logically you should never get freaked out. The unknown tends to get people a lot, but it's awfully hard to surprise experienced/knowledgeable players.

I both over and underestimated Westballz at NWM, but I won't get into that as I don't even think that was my main problem(which I would consider was actually lack of focus/prior meditation). Regardless, it was a good lesson for me about the entire package of focus and clearly taking my opponent for what they are regardless of how I interpret those feelings(knowing I'm better shouldn't make me feel good or bad but it should just be something I keep in mind competitively).




This green tea is really good everyone drink it.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
You're fine really. The only problem you're having is that you experimented with some new aggression ideas and they didn't work out, but that's what experimentation is all about. But it's true, I did have more room to move when i played you this time around, and going youtube warrior for all of 15 minutes confirmed it. Here, follow me on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl8HvRgYDRE&t=4m22s

i don't have a video of the tournament you were at in california a few weeks ago but your set with all of the WC spacies did not look like how you were playing in this video. the main difference IMO is that when you go in, everything leads to something that is effectively unblockable for one reason or another (low aerial or laser and ends in shine, grab, shinegrab). I think the main thing is that you're using lasers and movement to set up strong angles for yourself, weak angles for your opponent, or you simply trap them.

I think the other main thing out of your initial hits on shine or grab is that you always immediately set up a HUGE advantage off of them by positioning or time. By that I mean, when you get the grab, it's always something like forward throw > set up edge guard or upthrow > free combo damage. But honestly, i think the shine is better between the two. almost every shine is a reset with a cancel in place, which gives you a MASSIVE amount of time to react to DI or to go for a better combo. in a lot of the cases, your combo here is simple a well placed dair setup > dair. I don't see you going for as many aerial approaches at your best, so it starts to look like a flow chart of sorts that looks like this:

neutral game > positioning/laser advantage (same thing really) > "unblockable" approach > set up a kill/gain as much damage momentum as possible if you can't get the kill.

the thing is, because of how you're setting it up, predictability is only a minor issue because there's a strong sense of inevitability. i think the strength of your offense has been reduced because of your new approaches not being as strong, both the approaches themselves are easier to defend against, but once you hit you're also not getting that strong punishment game because the hit-confirms don't give you as much opportunity to get the ideal punish out of them.

review these, you'll see what i mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQSMTKhdsDY match 1

vs the same MU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kSUi1-PqIc&t=13m30s

unfortunately there's not much continuity against players that you've played (at least on video) over the past year and a half or so and i didn't have much luck looking for the same players, but you can still observe the pattern pretty clearly once you see it. the sad thing is that your offense is still at 90% of what you were doing before and none of the things you're doing are bad per se, they're just not as good and falco is as frail as ever. i think the weaker offense gives that wiggle room we were texting about, and not killing your opponent is giving them more opportunities to fight you and hit you back.

in short, you only kinda ****. you're just not ****** enough.

i can go over this is MUCH more detail because i found TONS of examples because it's a continuous trend. if you want me to i will but we can save it for aim like the teams thing if you want or whatever you think will help you the most. let me know.

edit: green tea *****.
 

unknown522

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Messages
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Toronto, Ontario
I didn't mean emotionally so much as my improvement as a player and where I'm looking to take my game.

Being that guy that was considered good then loses to everyone is not fun and it also makes me second guess a lot of stuff <.< It doesn't make me feel bad like it used to it's just really awkward lol.

I do have some good ideas about how to resolve a lot of problems I'm currently facing so I'm not feeling terribly overwhelmed.
oooh, I see what you mean. My bad.

People can think what they want, but in the end you're gonna **** em anyway.

edit: lol I just saw the youtube comments from your set vs chillin. I got pretty annoyed (though it's not really any of my business).
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
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Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
So many early aerials on shield. And PP's hits aren't netting him as much as they usually do. I'd be pretty frustrated, too.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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I can't guarantee it but I have a good feeling that that is the last recorded time I look so scrubby.

bluhhhh

Umbreon I will respond to your post in a bit.
 

oukd

Smash Lord
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Apr 21, 2010
Messages
1,464
Hey falcos, wtf do you do with grabs on spacies? I'm always lost when i have to throw fox or falco :c
 

oukd

Smash Lord
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Apr 21, 2010
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yeah i realized that's possibly the vaguest question ever lol <.< guess i'll just keep experimenting
 

Warhawk

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Mt. Pleasant/Highland, MI
Stage positioning matters a lot with throws but I guess that really kinda applies to a lot of things honestly. I feel like its really important with throw choice though, especially Falco's throws where he doesn't have this amazing throw that you use for 90 percent of things. I know for like backthrow you can usually get it to combo into something more often it seems when you're by the ledge with a little bit of space between you and the ledge. It really depends on where you are and what you want to do though.
 

Vaccine

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 24, 2011
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Bloomfield Hills MI
when they're @ 0% i like 2 lasergrab -> fthrow -> bthrow -> dthrow ->uthrow -> fsmash just to get them offstage, and then i usually sh phantasm their DJ.
 
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