PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[flaw]

A few tips would be helpful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDtcOVhO3_U

Generally, I feel like I have good control of most matches but my punishes, edgeguarding, DI and techs are crap.

After this MM we played for a few more hours and I put together when to catch fox double jumping to top platform with lasers and to mix in retreating laser with run away turn around laser in place (just laser spacing in general got better).

I have a lot of trouble knowing when to late aerial to counter Shine OoS, when to try to catch fox jumping using early overshoot nair, when to overshoot my approach to catch the dashdance back/wavedash OoS back, when to expect a counterattack to my dash dancing, what to do vs drillshines, when to use uptilt and bair to wall fox, when to use dair vs nair... examples of these using the vid would be most helpful (instead of general theories, but those work too)

 

[Brookman]

You don't focus enough. You need to stop trying to outright attack the other player and instead try to force advantageous positions where the oppoent can't help but get hit. Also,Your tech skill needs work.

Being in Rochester, NY should allow for steady improvement if you really get into the tournament community. NY, esp. NYC is a great hub for competitive melee.

 

[knightpraetor]

reading these posts made me realize I'm really bad about punishing rolls out of my dashdance..i feel like there is a point in marth's dash where if the falco rolls and I chase on reaction i cannot have a guaranteed punish, but i try to force the grab most of the time anyway like a scrub. they just keep rolling/spotdodge and i feel stupid..but yeah i feel like i just stop moving out of range in order to punish rolls when i should be able to do it out of the dashdance.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

For most of the game it didn't seem like you had the greatest control over the stage. And when you did you usually gave it up to chase him while he sat on a platform waiting for you. Perhaps you should think about being a little more patient in that regard.

You may want to add more mixups to your approaches as well. Laser approaches are a great mixup, such as laser-grab, laser-uptilt, laser-shine. Also Shine-grabs and straightup tomahawks may also be a good addition to your shield pressure.

I also saw he caught you with some get up attacks, crouch cancelling at low percents can help with that.

Oh also you may want to look into phantasm shortenings, they can be a life saver at the best times.

 

[flaw]

Thanks for the help. I haven't just started playing, been going to tournaments since 09. I'm just a few blocks from JesiahTEG so I play with him quite a bit, but we both work full time so it's hard to get good practice in. NYC is like 6 or 7 hours away

Jesse's fox is really aggro and never leaves me alone, I'm not used to playing technical foxes that camp the ledges. These were our first matches, I was trying to figure out a way to condition him to not camp the ledges so much. By the end I learned that if he went to the far platform, he would almost always feign an approach and double jump to the top platform to avoid my lasers, so generally if he camped platforms by the end I ran to the other side of the stage and would djdl him a lot and it worked well.

But if I need to play more patient (which I agree), then I have to ask.. why? What do I look for? If I sit there and dash dance and wait for him to come to me I almost always get baited and punished because fox is faster. If I look for bairs and utilts they learn quickly not to approach stupidly and try to bait those attacks. I feel like I have to be the aggressive one because letting fox run around a lot is bad news because he's so fast and deadly.

I shorten phantasm a lot, actually, I wish I had more vids up. And I try to focus, I focus so much I can't talk and I get headaches... but things I don't expect to happen confuse me and I try to think about why that happened and what I could do to fix it and I start to feel lost... I actively think about loosening up my tunnel vision but it's really hard to do.

I agree with crouch cancel getup attacks, I do it against marth a lot I need to start doing it against spacies too. Also, I shine grab marths a bunch, too. But technical foxes are too fast with out of shield stuff. If I come in close with laser I get upsmashed OoS, or they grab first before I do, or I get jabbed if they weren't shielding, or they jull jump out of shield and bair me... and fox on the offensive can tech chase me all day so I'm really hesitant to laser up close. Laser turn around utilt is good but is hard for me to do consistently on my new controller

Notice that I do bait the upsmash/grab a few times, I look for it a lot.

As for shine grab.. I can't even get far enough to shine. I have to try to overshoot my aerials a lot and if I do the shine then it won't hit them. If I do manage to land on their shield, they shine OoS before I can shine. So I try to late aerial but somehow the fox sees this and will just jump/wd/run away before it comes out. In the rare event I land a late aerial, yes, I do get some good pressure going. But I've dissected mango vids and the number of times he successfully does late aerial stuff against lovage is 2 or 3 times per match, so it's not some critical thing.

My current strategy is to 1. Condition them not to jump oos away to platforms. 2. Start to late aerial a lot into shine grab/shield poke dairs. I've thought about it a lot but I can't really execute it.

 

[samizdat]

By the end I learned that if he went to the far platform, he would almost always feign an approach and double jump to the top platform to avoid my lasers, so generally if he camped platforms by the end I ran to the other side of the stage and would djdl him a lot and it worked well.

That works. Also, if you're at center stage and you know when fox is going to make a move for the top platform, you can abuse falco's superior fullhop and just jump up there and meet him with a dair. Alhough sometimes it can be difficult to combo from the top platform, doing this will often condition fox not to go up there, or in the very least, pressure him into second-guessing his spacing against you (in any case, taking the top platform yourself usually isn't a bad strategy in the matchup). Once he stops going up there, he will start trying either to beat you with his speed on the ground, at which point laser spacing can slow/shut him down, or fullhopping/coming down from side plats to avoid lasers, at which point you can again beat him with your fullhop and even sometimes set up baits. You just have to make sure that you stay a step ahead of him.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I noticed I have a habit of approaching with dair/nair -> shine -> wavedash back or forward from neutral no matter whether I have hit shield, hit the opponent, or completely whiffed due to them spot-dodging/rolling. I usually use the time during the wavedash to confirm what has happened and choose accordingly. Follow DI on shine, follow-up with attack, retreat perhaps or advance again.

I think this is a bad habit, but I am not sure to replace it with. Falco has a ton of options from an aerial approach in neutral and the right one usually depends upon what happens. The aerial hits shield (shine -> SH Nair retreat for shield pressure), hit opponent at high percents with shine (full hop out of shine or wavedash to follow DI), the Nair hits (chase after them without using shine), etc.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well that habit is okay until you start getting hit out of any part of that stuff, then you have to change it. Generally, you'll get away with aerial approaches as long as you are in a good range to do so and aren't predictable, so I'll leave that part alone for now.

I read on the Fox boards that not shining immediately is good because people wait for the shine to punish. So instead maybe aerial to grab or aerial to jab or aerial to tilt or aerial to delayed shine or aerial to another aerial or aerial to movement....you get the idea.

As for the WD, WD'ing in place is pretty good sometimes depending on the matchup and percent. If the opponent won't fly away as far/will DI in/is a FF'er then you can react to a connected shine with a jump in to attack with WD'ing in a direction. People often don't recognize WDs in place as threatening because they don't see it much, so you could do that. You could also just SH out of the shine to laser if they stay in shield/roll or aerial if they stay in shield/dodge. There's also a DJ mixup in there.

Basically, I'm tired and you should look at every part of your habitual execution to figure out where the ideal mixups go.

 

[FoxLisk]

@flaw I haven't watched the matches but I think you need to learn that you can approach without throwing out a move. If your overshoots arent getting you anything but you need that space, just run forward as wait/shield/wd down/tomahawk/whatever. Then when you deal with his reaction you have more space and he's less sure of your next action.

 

[Druggedfox]

I mean, there's honestly nothing wrong with that habit *overall*, just because waveshining out of aerials is such a solid choice. You should probably be more aware of hitting shield, just because you're currently not putting any pressure on them not to shield (and if shielding isn't bad for them... lasers don't matter as much, which is sort of a big deal).

Also, if you're actually whiffing the aerials, I'd first look at why you're whiffing the aerials (as opposed to your reaction to missing it, which is shine-->wavedash). You probably shouldn't be whiffing too many aerials within punishable range, and most non punishable aerials that are whiffed probably are somewhat useless. That said, once you whiff an aerial sometimes your best choice *is* to shine (because you need something super fast to protect yourself >_>) but sometimes the best choice might just buffering something to keep yourself safe (roll being way safer than spotdodge).

A big thing is just to think about why you're doing the move you're doing in the first place. Waveshining on hit is definitely your best option in an ideal world where people aren't terrible at DI'ing. That said, you should probably pay attention to your opponent's DI on your first couple shines. If your opponent had mediocre DI you can start just SH'ing-->DJ'ing out of shine into some stupid combo that falco probably shouldn't be allowed to do.

 

[Dr Peepee]

^the other way to look at it

good look DF

 

[Druggedfox]

@thebirddoctor

yoooo civil war??? you ready???

 

[Dr Peepee]

NO BECAUSE I AM TIRED

F*** U DRUGGEDFOX

nah yeah I'm kinda hyped I just wish Twitch was playing with me more so I could've practiced more <.<

aim later gotta write this paper lol

 

[Druggedfox]

NO BECAUSE I AM TIRED

F*** U DRUGGEDFOX

nah yeah I'm kinda hyped I just wish Twitch was playing with me more so I could've practiced more <.<

aim later gotta write this paper lol

Aight aim and stuff

what a noob, still writing papers instead of smashbros

All I hear is johns <3

Also, has everybody seen this TAS?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qWgxE8VLlw&feature=plcp

 

[Deleted member]

this thread ****ing blows!!

 

[Deleted member]

kevin if you're tired go to bed lmao i'll join you guys on aim later.

here, watch this so we can laugh about it later

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ThgacvwmI

yes this guy is for real LOL

 

[Dr Peepee]

everyone hates falco so I quit posting in here so much =(

it'll get better eventually


edit: nah umbreon I gotta get this paper done I'll sleep a lot tonight

 

[Deleted member]

everyone hates falco so I quit posting in here so much =(

it'll get better eventually


edit: nah umbreon I gotta get this paper done I'll sleep a lot tonight

i used to jerk to falco vids until i realized it was like gay porn. now i just feel like a gay

 

[Bones0]

Well that habit is okay until you start getting hit out of any part of that stuff, then you have to change it. Generally, you'll get away with aerial approaches as long as you are in a good range to do so and aren't predictable, so I'll leave that part alone for now.

I read on the Fox boards that not shining immediately is good because people wait for the shine to punish. So instead maybe aerial to grab or aerial to jab or aerial to tilt or aerial to delayed shine or aerial to another aerial or aerial to movement....you get the idea.

As for the WD, WD'ing in place is pretty good sometimes depending on the matchup and percent. If the opponent won't fly away as far/will DI in/is a FF'er then you can react to a connected shine with a jump in to attack with WD'ing in a direction. People often don't recognize WDs in place as threatening because they don't see it much, so you could do that. You could also just SH out of the shine to laser if they stay in shield/roll or aerial if they stay in shield/dodge. There's also a DJ mixup in there.

Basically, I'm tired and you should look at every part of your habitual execution to figure out where the ideal mixups go.

I wouldn't aerial grab if you land in front of them because shine-grab works just as well and it will keep you safe in case they do shield grab. I could see aerial to DD grab working if you land behind them though. I use aerial to dash through them to RSHL all the time, and it's good at shutting down Marth's (and other character's I'm sure) WD OoS.

 

[Dr Peepee]

people react to shines often, so that's why aerial to grab can be pretty solid

 

[Deleted member]

people react to shines often, so that's why aerial to grab can be pretty solid

in the strictest sense of the word "react", you can't react to shine because it's frame 1, it happens when you hit the button. you can only predict it or buffer DI, in which case predicting shinegrab is quite difficult.

do your paper.

 

[Dr Peepee]

it's done lol now I am goofing off until I leave before civil war since twitch still won't play me

and you know what I meant, but yes predicting shines is common right now so yeah that. but in the case of shine grab, shine staling allows for people to roll/dodge away before the grab can connect sometimes, so this concept is kind of important.

 

[Druggedfox]

Wtf is all this whiff aerial talk.

Okay so what happens is... you do an aerial... and it whiffs. So then since you're in lag, they can just grab in such a way that there's literally nothing you can do. Or even if you can do something, you'd have to buffer something predictable.

Like, grab outranges shine, and a lot of characters have better grab range than falco. Idk... this seems silly. If you whiff an aerial, you already ****ed up, and you better figure out whether it was actually punishable or not (based on their positioning/how ready they were to punish). A lot of the time it's clear they don't have enough time to punish so they just bait a spotdodge... go hit them or something (or safely buffer roll backwards or some ****).

If they do have enough time to punish you might as well shine anyway. Honestly? If they "predict" your shine or buffer spotdodge it's not a big deal, since they had a guaranteed punish anyway and they just gave it up. If this becomes consistent obviously you can change your reaction to the situation when you realize your opponent is terrible and doesn't actually know whether or not something was punishable. But ideally, if you're fighting somebody good, they'll try to punish something when it's guaranteed punishable. If they're doing so, you might as well shine and hope they **** up.

grumble grumble grumble

edit: yeah i talked to pp later and he told me. Then i just got salty because we were talking about aerial-->grab on shield >___> I hope the next person you guys try that on messes up a nair OoS and accidentally shieldgrabs you. Then 0-death.

 

[Bones0]

I thought we were talking about aerials on shield and mixups you can do instead of just nair-shine.

 

[~Twitch~]

wtf kevin why didn't you just ask me to play you?

you lazy bit i had a terrible week.

 

[Druggedfox]

wtf kevin why didn't you just ask me to play you?

you lazy bit i had a terrible week.

>_> ima bother him about this lmao

 

[Brookman]

PP you buffering jump out of shield with C stick yet??? makes JC shine out of shield E-Z P-Z

 

[Bones0]

Brookman, are you gay?

Because you just blew my mind.

 

[ThatGuy]

PP you buffering jump out of shield with C stick yet??? makes JC shine out of shield E-Z P-Z

That input technique never crossed my mind, I should give it a shot. Thanks.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I would think it would be just as easy/hard. Its not like you can buffer the shine, so you still have to have the timing down

 

[Brookman]

YOU CAn BUFFeR tHE SHiNE YOU NOOb. HOLD B

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

YOU CAn BUFFeR tHE SHiNE YOU NOOb. HOLD B

 

[unknown522]

the only person I've ever heard of doing the buffer jump to shine oos was honeybadger from syracuse. He was showing me when I went down there in december.

 

[Van.]

I took a game off Shiz in a 1 dollar MM yesterday

2 stocked him too!

 

[Deleted member]

this is y u must never drop a match to a n00b

 

[Bones0]

this is y u must never drop a match to a n00b like Smith, Neo

^What my brain decided to read.

 

[Van.]

the haters are already jealous

 

[Bones0]

S2J is just intimidated.

 

[Druggedfox]

random note so i can remember later

kevin remind me to talk about your dumb shine grabs

 

[JPOBS]

I would think that using the c-stick to buffer the jump for shine oos would make it incredibly difficult to do grounded shine oos.

You no longer have control over exactly when you jump. If you buffer it with c-stick, you would jump on the first avalable frame. Meaning you would have to learn the shield stun timing on literally every moves because they are all different. That's really dumb.

Just learn to grounded shine oos in the general period after stun ends and you'll be golden.

Also, westballz is the future of falco godddddaammn