Divinokage
Smash Legend
Bah it wasn't terrible, I know you can do it. =)
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
JPOBS
Smash Hero
PP you've described this tournament as being "horrible" and you say you couldnt focus etc.
But from a spectators point of view, while i was watching the stream, you were absolutely crushing everyone you were playing up until Armada. I remember watching and thinking to myself "holy moly PP is gonna wreck this bracket" after seeing the exhibition you put on vs SFAT and Wobbles and various others.
I say that to say, you looked to me to be doing spectacular early on, so what happened to make you feel like apex went horribly for you?
But from a spectators point of view, while i was watching the stream, you were absolutely crushing everyone you were playing up until Armada. I remember watching and thinking to myself "holy moly PP is gonna wreck this bracket" after seeing the exhibition you put on vs SFAT and Wobbles and various others.
I say that to say, you looked to me to be doing spectacular early on, so what happened to make you feel like apex went horribly for you?
DAS
Smash Ace
Getting 5th isn't bad at all. Just keep trying so better things can happen.
Pachinkosam
I have no friends, Im dead inside
I will personally critique myself against Sfat to prove to you that I played badly against him. No offense to Sfat or anything, that guy is a very talented player, but I am really good against Fox.
I didn't crush SW either, it was a close game 1 then he started to come back on me when I was almost 3 stocking him(much like with Javi).
Wobbles.....idk why that went so well for me honestly. I played a little better than I had previously in bracket against him but it wasn't phenomenal(I can also prove this via video).
I feel Apex went horribly for me because I got sick and couldn't focus at crucial moments when I played. That's what happened at Genesis 2 as well but to a lesser degree here. Sleep deprivation may have also had something to do with it since I didn't get to sleep early when I arrived because we got in late(like....midnight or so but we had to get situated and then the Germans really wanted to play me badly when I got in and I didn't wanna be a **** but I guess that's my fault....). The worst part related to sleep was I was in charge of Brawl players(they were in my car and I had to drive them) so day 2 I had to wait around until Brawl pools finished at like 12:15AM and I was dead tired after playing Armada with Marth for a while(very taxing mentally playing that character well at high level I found but maybe I just wanted to focus more with him....meh whatever I'll figure that out lol). I had to get up at 8AM day 3 to be ready for the tournament and I got there earlier than any other pro, arriving on time at 9AM groggy and feeling horrible. It didn't matter though because bracket started over an hour later.....
Being sick was still probably a bigger deal, but there were some sleep-related things I figured I should mention as well. I just didn't feel healthy at all this tournament and as a result I couldn't fully put my mind into my play. My mind is working on a really high level smashwise thanks to recent breakthroughs imo which is why I still looked pretty good, but I'm sad I couldn't show off my full potential because I was sick and whatever else.
please don't troll me......I'm just explaining why I feel this tournament is bad for me and know none of it is a legitimate excuse for losing. I will just try to be much better than my competition next time so it doesn't matter if I get sick or not.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
5th isn't bad.. lol it's incredible.. I don't see many others that can get top 5 consistently. =/
she's probably WD'ing backwards, so either feint an approach then Dair or try to angle your shield down so you don't get shield stabbed by it.Samus matchup...I do ok, but I keep getting caught in her downsmash for some stupid reason
that's usually how samus gets dsmashes unless you jump into her when she's on a platform(plup strats afaik).
Edit @Kage: 5th sucks for me when I want to try and prove I'm the best. gotta keep my bar raised if I want to succeed. =)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That's fine, that's you, but I mean for others to say it is rather funny to me. lol.
Alright thanks! I think that's actually the problem, or I'll just mess up an aerial on his shield resulting in a downsmash- still workin' on that shield pressure.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Cool thanks for the reply.
I certainly am not gonna troll you bro. s*** happens. I'm glad your so fueled to prove your the best no matter what.
I knew you wouldn't jpobs, you're cool. <3
I got this! I'm ready to get past Apex and get back to work once I get rested up and recover haha. =)
I got this! I'm ready to get past Apex and get back to work once I get rested up and recover haha. =)
Mahone
Smash Champion
sick and tired...
of losing!
DOOM DOOM DOOMDADOOM
of losing!
DOOM DOOM DOOMDADOOM
Warhawk
Smash Lord
PP what'd you think of Mang0's performance? I'm curious since you seemed confident he would win next time he and Armada played. I thought you and him just didn't seem quite on point throughout the whole tournament (not that that for sure would have helped Mang0 beat Armada). I'd ask you what you think can be done to beat Armada but I'm sure you probably wanna keep that to yourself for next time you face him
Mango didn't get to play friendlies because there were no setups(same problem for MANY people besides Mango) and he didn't get his game back like he has been doing at majors for sooooo long....quite unfortunate.PP what'd you think of Mang0's performance? I'm curious since you seemed confident he would win next time he and Armada played. I thought you and him just didn't seem quite on point throughout the whole tournament (not that that for sure would have helped Mang0 beat Armada). I'd ask you what you think can be done to beat Armada but I'm sure you probably wanna keep that to yourself for next time you face him
I need to not airdodge after double jumping to beat Armada obviously LOOOOOL
nah I probably just need to keep myself healthy more than anything else. I felt like I did ALMOST everything I wanted to do to him when I was able to stay focused. He surprised me a couple times but most everything was straightforward.
CK Momentum
Smash Apprentice
Dr. PP, good luck just remember theres always gonna be later opportunities for you to sorry we didn't get that money match in, next time I promise. Also JPOBS were you at apex?
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Hey, Peepee. You can buffer a roll out of the FC fair > grab that Armada was getting you with (he's started doing that recently it seems, and it's pretty ****). You don't have any other OoS option that'll beat it (maybe shine, but I'm not really sure), and buffering a spotdodge against Peach is obviously not smart.
Just a tip you may or may not already know.
Just a tip you may or may not already know.
I can't mash side to roll away?
maaaannnnn I wanted to keep being lazy LOL oh well looks like Armada got a little better at shield pressuring.
thanks for the tip man I really appreciate it. =)
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Your best bet is buffering a roll, honestly. You don't want to be a frame late and get grabbed.
And no problem. I just want to see the mixups that'll result once he catches on. The back and forth adapting between top players is something I love watching.
And no problem.
I just want to see the mixups that'll result once he catches on. The back and forth adapting between top players is something I love watching.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I'm so mad I didn't get to see any of Zhu's matches on the stream. Can someone tell me how he looked? It seems like he hasn't played in forever and I missed seeing his Falco near the top of tournaments.
kalamazhu
Smash Journeyman
to be honest PP I think the reason u lost to javi was because u took the win for granted before actually playing him. (i am assuming this because u said u were really good at the fox matchup in a previous post and how u shoulda destroyed sFat and SW). U were already looking forward to facing Hbox or even mango instead of concentrating on the matter at hand.
yes I KNOW it's really stupid and it's part of why I flipped my controller after playing Javi. I've only been sick twice in the past year and it was G2 and Apex2012. That's extremely coincidental and honestly it's fine if you don't believe me, but I promise you I wouldn't say anything if I outright lost because I was a noob and lost focus or just got outplayed or something(which is just my word but I hope that can suffice).I don't know, getting sick two international tournaments in a row?
Are you saying you would have beaten Javi and Armada if you weren't sick?
I would rather not comment on my losses like that because it will spur silly discussion but I will say I am quite disappointed in my play at that tournament. What happened has happened and saying "what if" won't change anything.
Edit @ kalamazhu: I suppose this could be true, but that theory doesn't really explain why I would blow a lead game 2 when I am clearly down in the set(unless you think I would be overconfident about winning the game and from there the set I guess).
I believe my issue was more physical than mental though. That is not to say that you are wrong about what my mental condition may have been like at the time. I would like to play Javi again when we have both trained more and see how the rematch goes and then maybe we could decide whether I could back that claim up about me being great vs Fox is true or not.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
nope. pretty sure you asked me that a whle ago? my ride bailed
i really wish i could have gone
Zhu is hands down the most unique falco playstyle. I love his use of shielding to control spacing. no other falco does it and he's the falco i'm emulating the most in my playstyle right now despite being relatively inactive
<3 zhu
Bones0
Smash Legend
Buffering rolls with the C-stick is really weird at first, but once you get used to it, it definitely feels MORE natural. I learned it to make sure I could roll out of Marth's double fthrow @ 0%, and I'm slowly incorporating C-stick rolls into other parts of my game because being able to DI during rolls is mad useful, especially if you are playing characters like Peach or Sheik who will wreck you with dsmash as you try to roll away or something.
Other than that PP, I'd just suggest that you keep in mind that your path of improvement may not be the best. I say this because from all of your posts and game play, you strike me as a very systematic and disciplined person when approaching how to play a game. I would definitely say one of the things you seem to excel at is analyzing a part of your game play and then just expanding and expanding on it. I would even go so far as to say that's why you are really helpful to others when breaking down game play for critiques. However, to reference a Sirlin article, sometimes the part of the game you are trying to expand is not the one best suited for you to win. Idk if that will really help you based on where you're at with your game, but whenever I feel stuck in Melee or any other game, my fool-proof way of getting around mental blocks has always been to just do something different instead of trying to do what I've been doing, but better. Maybe take it back to basics and question what you thought you knew about certain matchups, and hopefully you will find an unexplored part of the game that you can expand on that no one will have seen before (let alone be ready for). ^_^
Other than that PP, I'd just suggest that you keep in mind that your path of improvement may not be the best. I say this because from all of your posts and game play, you strike me as a very systematic and disciplined person when approaching how to play a game. I would definitely say one of the things you seem to excel at is analyzing a part of your game play and then just expanding and expanding on it. I would even go so far as to say that's why you are really helpful to others when breaking down game play for critiques. However, to reference a Sirlin article, sometimes the part of the game you are trying to expand is not the one best suited for you to win. Idk if that will really help you based on where you're at with your game, but whenever I feel stuck in Melee or any other game, my fool-proof way of getting around mental blocks has always been to just do something different instead of trying to do what I've been doing, but better. Maybe take it back to basics and question what you thought you knew about certain matchups, and hopefully you will find an unexplored part of the game that you can expand on that no one will have seen before (let alone be ready for). ^_^
Anand
Smash Journeyman
If Armada is perfect, you can't buffer a roll -- you'll get grabbed out of roll startup. The only thing you can do that avoids the grab is spot dodge (or, better yet, just don't get caught shielding his FC fairs). In practice, you can probably buffer roll, since doing a perfect FC fair > grab on shield seems hard (Armada is pretty good though, so maybe not).
[COLLAPSE="Source, plus foreshadowing."]
Peach's Fair -> Grab vs Buffered Spotdodge
Peach's Fair -> Grab vs Buffered Roll
Buffered spotdodge will get invincibility the same frame the grab comes out, however buffered roll is too slow to escape before the grab. Peach players should look into switching their mixups from being fair->jab and fair->dsmash to fair->grab and fair->dsmash. Dsmash and grab both beat grab and jump options by the opponent, the only difference in coverage being spotdodge, roll and remaining in shield.
[/COLLAPSE]
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- 5,493
Oh, really? Wow. I thought you could do either, and Armada said to me that they could roll away, too.
Well, ****. I dunno if PP has to worry about Armada being that perfect, because I think that's a difference of 2 frames (spotdodges starting on frame 2, rolls starting on frame 4). But that's certainly something to keep in mind.
Being in shield against her is pretty bad most of the time, too, so perhaps he should just work on that.
Well, ****. I dunno if PP has to worry about Armada being that perfect, because I think that's a difference of 2 frames (spotdodges starting on frame 2, rolls starting on frame 4). But that's certainly something to keep in mind.
Being in shield against her is pretty bad most of the time, too, so perhaps he should just work on that.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Hmmmm, I wonder how plausible it would be to light shield and/or shield DI out of it. It already looks like Mario is knocked back so that he is just barely in grab range.
Sort of unrelated: Does anyone know if shielding increases the area that your opponent can grab (like a grab will miss if you hard shield but land if you light shield)? I have no way of testing it atm.
Sort of unrelated: Does anyone know if shielding increases the area that your opponent can grab (like a grab will miss if you hard shield but land if you light shield)? I have no way of testing it atm.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I hate buffering rolls and sidesteps. I feel timing it keeps me awake and aware of what's going on. I also never randomly f-smash accidentally this way. I also feel it helps me learn the shield-timings of a lot of stuff more intimately. I'm really good out of shield, and I think my refusal to hold the c-stick has helped me in this respect.
It's what I imagine the difference between driving standard vs. automatic is like. But I've never been behind the wheel so maybe that's a bad analogy.
Anyway, buffering is absolutely **** but I don't like it for me.
Not sure if that related to the discussion but I saw "buffering" and I wanted to contribute.
It's what I imagine the difference between driving standard vs. automatic is like. But I've never been behind the wheel so maybe that's a bad analogy.
Anyway, buffering is absolutely **** but I don't like it for me.
Not sure if that related to the discussion but I saw "buffering" and I wanted to contribute.
ruhtraeel
Smash Ace
PP with the salt
yeah when I was watching the matches it seemed like you never got momentum, but I think you could have done a lot better if you did.
like every time you tried to switch the momentum by putting some shield pressure or lasers on you got shined and then got put into defence again
but I think if Javi knows how to keep that pressure on, he is an amazing player
but yeah, I know exactly the feeling you described
yeah when I was watching the matches it seemed like you never got momentum, but I think you could have done a lot better if you did.
like every time you tried to switch the momentum by putting some shield pressure or lasers on you got shined and then got put into defence again
but I think if Javi knows how to keep that pressure on, he is an amazing player
but yeah, I know exactly the feeling you described
Bones0
Smash Legend
This is pretty much exactly how I felt when I first started buffering. I've always preferred just timing it, but now I just try to time it with the C-stick, just a little on the early side. I definitely think just trying to hold the C-stick as soon as someone hits your shield is a really bad idea for multiple reasons. I also wouldn't recommend it to new players who don't know shield stun timings, but I don't think PP has that issue. lol
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Soooo...if he's in shield, the only thing he can do is buffer a spotdodge...
****ing hell, why is her shield pressure so broken!?
****ing hell, why is her shield pressure so broken!?
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Then don't shield, move! lol. I learned that I always get grabbed if I shield mostly, it's way better in general to not let Peach or spacies inside you.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I wish I could stop shielding all the time. Moving in this game is too difficult. WTF
whoa you can get out of fthrow regrabs with that buffering?? beast
and I know how I want to improve now to get back to that point I was at before, and once I get there I will likely use ideas such as that to get even better. thanks for reminding me though man because I usually need reminders to stay creative even when that is my focus haha. XD
huh.....is it possible to buffer peach's grab after the Fair? otherwise my odds of buffering rolls out seem decent.
I'll keep the spotdodge idea in mind though. looks like I'll finally have to start working on buffering haha.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's only that broken in TAS and when there's no move staling lolz.
Fair, in real matches, never gets to fully use the +4 it gives if executed at perfect level because, guess what, Peaches don't float Fair at ground level. And that requires the move not be staled. Again, guess what their favourite move to throw out and initiate the stock is? Down smash. But Fair is pretty up there lolz.
Nair is the one that you're more likely to get hard frame-trapped by (and feel the full power of the +3/4 advantage [depending on staling]) because she actually does that one at ground level fairly routinely.
You can't buffer shield grab because shield grab is not produced by a block + c-stick input combination (only things you can buffer are jump, sidestep, and rolls).
Fair, in real matches, never gets to fully use the +4 it gives if executed at perfect level because, guess what, Peaches don't float Fair at ground level. And that requires the move not be staled. Again, guess what their favourite move to throw out and initiate the stock is? Down smash. But Fair is pretty up there lolz.
Nair is the one that you're more likely to get hard frame-trapped by (and feel the full power of the +3/4 advantage [depending on staling]) because she actually does that one at ground level fairly routinely.
You can't buffer shield grab because shield grab is not produced by a block + c-stick input combination (only things you can buffer are jump, sidestep, and rolls).
Bones0
Smash Legend
Yeah, Marth can't get a third grab guaranteed.
Theory Bros. says you can't buffer roll out of her fair, but:
1. Like KK said, fair will often be staled in actual games.
2. Armada can't be frame perfect all the time... I think. >_>
3. Even if Armada has like 90% consistency, it's still your best (only?) option unless you think you can get the light shield and/or shield DI I mentioned.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Marth technically cannot get the first regrab if you DI down & away from f-throws. You can buffer anything out of it and avoid the follow (unless he waits). But then the risk is that he can up throw > regrab instead. The reason people DI into Marth (aside from panicking and being silly) at 0 is because if he up throws at 0 he can't regrab if you DI behind him (just too slow, only Falco [so don't ask about Fox]). If he grab attacks I think he can do it, but that's what mashing is for. Spacies in my experience tend to mash very little though, so maybe Marths should just do that instead of f-throw regrab. Hmm. Interesting thought.
Wow, that's a lot of text about a single mixup. Smash be wordy. Smash be vague. I want to rhyme plague somehow but I don't see how to.
Regarding FC aerials: Peach cannot buffer grab after FC aerial (or down smash, which is the other important one) and, in my experience, it's very hard to be frame perfect at that specific timing. So rolling is generally a go. On a related note, since you're frail, I think you're best off rolling. It's really hard for Peach to chase that because she's, well, terribly slow. Sidestep is generally awful vs Peach.
Wow, that's a lot of text about a single mixup. Smash be wordy. Smash be vague. I want to rhyme plague somehow but I don't see how to.
Regarding FC aerials: Peach cannot buffer grab after FC aerial (or down smash, which is the other important one) and, in my experience, it's very hard to be frame perfect at that specific timing. So rolling is generally a go. On a related note, since you're frail, I think you're best off rolling. It's really hard for Peach to chase that because she's, well, terribly slow. Sidestep is generally awful vs Peach.
CK Momentum
Smash Apprentice
What is theory bros?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
A game that M2K and I play when we're depressed about smash and want an answer to Falco.
Sadly, we usually lose.
Falco too good.
Sadly, we usually lose.
Falco too good.