Possibly Useful OOS Option? Improving Our Ground Game

[Nefarious B]

As we all know, our metagame is heavily centered around our rediculous air game. However, our ground game remains really weak, and it's a hole that our opponents will constantly abuse until we can improve it.

That said, this is a thread for brainstorming how we can do just that: improve our ground game.

Feel free to take this anywhere from techs to mindgames to finding new uses for old moves, but the point is that we need a better ground game and it wont happen without participation from the community.

Here are some quick starting points:

Combat walking on characters who don't PS our third jab. This should be tested

Using sliding techs such as these to space on the ground, particularly with dtilt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4eTFNYlaV0

Here's a video I made to demonstrate how nair3 can potentially setup for huge combos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQYEI206RNY

Possible OOS option? Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWiQTh63_XU

 

[Jordun]

The NaritakeStep would really help with our ground game I reckon, how do you do it?

Foxtrot > ??? > ???

 

[ph00tbag]

The input is tap6 -> buffer(tap6 -> 1 -> [what have you]).

On the more general topic, I've mentioned this before, but I think ZSS players in general need more dtilt. Especially with sh 2xuair if you predict a jump.

 

[Tien2500]

The input is tap6 -> buffer(tap6 -> 1 -> [what have you]).

On the more general topic, I've mentioned this before, but I think ZSS players in general need more dtilt. Especially with sh 2xuair if you predict a jump.

Ummm can you put that in layman's term? I'm not sure what tap6 means exactly.

And yeah Dtilt is great.

 

[NickRiddle]

Ummm can you put that in layman's term? I'm not sure what tap6 means exactly.

And yeah Dtilt is great.

The tap'6" is 2D figher talk. Think of a numberpad on a keyboard. The number is just where it is on the nimpad. So, 6 is forward, 4 is back, 2 is down, and 8 is up.

D-tilt = 2gud

 

[Tien2500]

The tap'6" is 2D figher talk. Think of a numberpad on a keyboard. The number is just where it is on the nimpad. So, 6 is forward, 4 is back, 2 is down, and 8 is up.

D-tilt = 2gud

Thanks. Ok.... so then forward->buffered fowrard-> Down back-> whatever?

 

[noradseven]

d-tilt x n
jab(1 hit), dtilt x n
block u-tilt

Also its good to learn that craq walking stuff from the link boards, its nice on landing to keep our momentum and stay in walking state so we can poke with d-tilt/jab.

So what is this weird step, I know how to fox trot and do that craq walking **** on the ground.

 

[ph00tbag]

Thanks. Ok.... so then forward->buffered fowrard-> Down back-> whatever?

Dash, then buffer a dash, followed by a back-down tilt, then finish by buffering whatever you like.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think it will probably take abusing something like this slide while spacing our best ground move to improve our ground game for sure. I can't yet do that technique so I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems to have some promise.

Now that I think about it norad, craq walking could help bridge our air to ground combo game pretty well. Can you do it out of say, a bair? Or does it only work on a normal landing?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Wait, ZSS has a weak ground game? I always thought it was fairly decent. Anyway, here's a theory. Do you think we could possibly UTilt during certain jabs? Take a look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

See how little hitstun Samus' jab has? Someone can instantly jab her back, and since most jabs are around 3 frames in total, why shouldn't we be able to use ZSS' 3 frame UTilt as well? This may also work on Marth's jab.

Also, we should probably be using FSmash to space more. Yes, yes, it's a horrible move that we should never, ever use etc. etc., but think about it. We rely too much on side B for spacing on the ground. Having an extra tool for that can't hurt, surely? Everyone says that FSmash is slow (and it is), but i's 4 frames faster than side B, and the range is almost as good (2.7 blocks compared to three), so we should use it more as a spacing move. Oh, and also it keeps side B fresher, which is always good, no?

 

[fkacyan]

ZSS has an awful ground game. Most of her attacks are slow on startup and laggy on ending.

 

[Tien2500]

Wait, ZSS has a weak ground game? I always thought it was fairly decent. Anyway, here's a theory. Do you think we could possibly UTilt during certain jabs? Take a look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

See how little hitstun Samus' jab has? Someone can instantly jab her back, and since most jabs are around 3 frames in total, why shouldn't we be able to use ZSS' 3 frame UTilt as well? This may also work on Marth's jab.

Also, we should probably be using FSmash to space more. Yes, yes, it's a horrible move that we should never, ever use etc. etc., but think about it. We rely too much on side B for spacing on the ground. Having an extra tool for that can't hurt, surely? Everyone says that FSmash is slow (and it is), but i's 4 frames faster than side B, and the range is almost as good (2.7 blocks compared to three), so we should use it more as a spacing move. Oh, and also it keeps side B fresher, which is always good, no?

Yeah but the problem is the lag on Fsmash. Side B when spaced correctly has to be powershielded if its going to be punished and even then its not as punishable as some would like to believe. Fsmash though has more significant lag.

Utilt could be interesting. What other characters have jabs with such low hitstun? Marth's jab is possible but I never see Marth's jabbing.

 

[★Malik★™]

weak ground game?

i don't have any problem with her on the ground. i mean i'm better in the air with her but on the ground , it's not a weakness. My ground game doesn't..erm, isn't bad.

Also, we should probably be using FSmash to space more. Yes, yes, it's a horrible move that we should never, ever use etc. etc., but think about it. We rely too much on side B for spacing on the ground. Having an extra tool for that can't hurt, surely? Everyone says that FSmash is slow (and it is), but i's 4 frames faster than side B, and the range is almost as good (2.7 blocks compared to three), so we should use it more as a spacing move. Oh, and also it keeps side B fresher, which is always good, no?

yeah but the only tiime it can be used for spacing is when your opponents damage is high. using it when its low, won't do anything, except make your opponent hop a little and they can quickly attack you.

 

[fkacyan]

As I am forced to say to anybody who thinks they're better than everybody else...

Who the hell are you, and what have you done?

 

[★Malik★™]

As I am forced to say to anybody who thinks they're better than everybody else...

Who the hell are you, and what have you done?

if that was to me then...

i didn't say i was better then everybody else. where do you people get these questions? you have to read my post carefully. i'm like what? i meant my ground game against the people i've played online i think isn't bad, by my perspective. i haven't played everyone so i don't know other styles of play.



like, why was that brought up?

 

[Nefarious B]

See how little hitstun Samus' jab has? Someone can instantly jab her back, and since most jabs are around 3 frames in total, why shouldn't we be able to use ZSS' 3 frame UTilt as well? This may also work on Marth's jab.

This is why it's nice to double stick DI up as soon as you're hit in most cases, you get out of a lot of garbage combos and stupid stuff like this, cause if you're grounded you'll utilt and if you're in the air you'll uair. It's easy mode for DI and works decently well.

However, the comment on fsmash just shows a lack of knowledge about the move in general. If the startup was the problem, we wouldn't ever use side b either. The ******** cooldown is the problem. At low percents, it's not even safe on hit. ON HIT. If you get shielded, you open yourself up to lots of hurt. I don't even want to think about it getting powershielded, DDD could probably fsmash you lol.

If you guys insist on finding a use for fsmash, talk to norad, because he actually has some decent, but stupidly situational, uses for the move.

And yeah her ground game is bad because her ftilt is lacking, her jab can be powershielded, her smashes are too slow to space with, and she does low damage and has low priority in general it seems on the ground.

 

[mountain_tiger]

FTilt is rarely needed for ZSS. DTilt is better in almost every way possible. It starts up faster, has less cooldown, shield pokes and in addition you can use it to approach while crawling. Plus her hurtbox is shorter, which is sometimes useful as well. As for her smashes, DSmash and FSmash are slow, but USmash isn't. Granted, that's mainly for anti-air uses, but it can be used as a decent launcher as well, and it appears in around 8 frames. Of course, it has a fair bit of ending lag so....

Obviously FSmash has glaring flaws. But mixing up between two moves, even if one is unsafe, is surely better than using the same one repeatedly for the same purpose? I'd say that ZSS' ground game was average rather than bad. It's only bad when you compare it to her air game.

BTW, does anyone know if anything is guaranteed after up B (assuming that it pulls them downwards, obviously)? What frame advantage, if any, do you get? I always seem to be able to jab them afterwards, but then perhaps that's simply a case of not reacting fats enough rather than being a 'true' combo.

 

[Tien2500]

Actually I disagree that mixing up the two moves is better than using one. Its not as if Fsmash forces a different reaction or anything so I don't see the advantage of using it and the risk is way too great.

I'd say ZSS ground game is below average. It would be average if she had a normal grab, or if the tether had better cooldown.

I've always been able to Utilt after an Up B. I can't say for certain its a true combo but its worked for me pretty much 100% of the time. I've also been able to Up B down Smash pretty consistently but thats probably due to slow reaction more than anything.

 

[ph00tbag]

Actually I disagree that mixing up the two moves is better than using one. Its not as if Fsmash forces a different reaction or anything so I don't see the advantage of using it and the risk is way too great.

I'd say ZSS ground game is below average. It would be average if she had a normal grab, or if the tether had better cooldown.

I've always been able to Utilt after an Up B. I can't say for certain its a true combo but its worked for me pretty much 100% of the time. I've also been able to Up B down Smash pretty consistently but thats probably due to slow reaction more than anything.

I think her ground game be average if her ftilt were worth working into her pressure game. Her grab is just limited, which I think is fine. (Her dash grab's dumb hitbox is dumb, though.)

At high percents I always dsmash after Plasma Wire. No one seems to tech that move right, so the dsmash hits quite often.

 

[Nefarious B]

Another issue is that none of our ground moves are safe on block. Not even dtilt against some of the better grabs. Now that's the case with most characters, but unfortunately we don't have a grab to mix it up with, so all an opponent has to do is shield and react our slow *** grab and they've shut our ground game down pretty handily.

 

[sasook]

We rely too much on side B for spacing on the ground

Do we really? I don't really find myself using the whip all that much any more than her other moves, tbh.


Guys, what about this? Situational? Yes. But at least try picturing it:


Using flipstools onstage. Something like um.. you flipstool off them but instead of going super far sideways or upwards, you cancel it with an airdodge like RIGHT AFTER the jump so you stay at close range. From there you buffer a uair or bair or whathaveyou.


Yay? Nay?

 

[fkacyan]

Do we really? I don't really find myself using the whip all that much any more than her other moves, tbh.


Guys, what about this? Situational? Yes. But at least try picturing it:


Using flipstools onstage. Something like um.. you flipstool off them but instead of going super far sideways or upwards, you cancel it with an airdodge like RIGHT AFTER the jump so you stay at close range. From there you buffer a uair or bair or whathaveyou.


Yay? Nay?

This, like everything I can think of, is a ground maneuver to get into the air, which kinda puts us back at square one.

 

[Tien2500]

Do we really? I don't really find myself using the whip all that much any more than her other moves, tbh.


Guys, what about this? Situational? Yes. But at least try picturing it:


Using flipstools onstage. Something like um.. you flipstool off them but instead of going super far sideways or upwards, you cancel it with an airdodge like RIGHT AFTER the jump so you stay at close range. From there you buffer a uair or bair or whathaveyou.


Yay? Nay?

So... what are the advantages to doing this over a normal SH bair or Uair? Since you run the additional risk of being hit before the flipstool it just doesn't seem worth it, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[Charby]

I dont using Dtilt because if you get hitted during a dtilt , you will auto DI to down, and die at like 80% mk dsmash

 

[Viquey]

...Heh. I was just thinking about that last night. Although I was picturing hitting them with a stun shot after the flipstool.

I figure if you're running in or flipjumping in, they expect an attack or flipkick. So switching to the flipstool might catch them off guard. I'm pretty sure you can flipstool off a shielding opponent in fact...

Her flipjump's just so awesomesauce I wanna work it into her game moar, is all.

Hm... do we have any good followups on tripping with ftilt? Maybe that'd be something to look into...

Also, suit pieces. Keep them (or one) alive as long as possible, could expand upon that part of her game...

/brainstorming~

 

[CRASHiC]

Hm... do we have any good followups on tripping with ftilt? Maybe that'd be something to look into...

you can ftilt lock them, allowing you to hit them with anything afterwords.

You can also lazer lock DDD cause he's so fat.

You should have two goals when playing a group game, imo.

1. get them into the air
2. get them off stage

dtilt, uptilt, dsmash, short hopped upair all good ways for 1.

2. dash attack lock, side b, ftilt, items, and short hoped bair.

I've had a weird thought for a while, but was never ballsy enough to try it on someone. If you nair close the the ground, you will get landing lag to where you are ducking very low, you you are predicting a mid or high attack, you can do this, then dtilt to punish their attack.

 

[noradseven]

I dont using Dtilt because if you get hitted during a dtilt , you will auto DI to down, and die at like 80% mk dsmash

Do the standing d-tilt, then immediately hit up, think jump install in GG, it works like magic. But, don't forget, if you have tap jump on you might actually of jump installed but don't worry you can cancel it by pressing a different direction or with d-tilt doing it slightly earlier so it doesn't land in the 10 frame buffer.

Also keep as many items on stage for as long as possible, with most characters, just make sure you can grab items out of the air reliably otherwise you can get screwed fast. Yeah and screw the items not working on nado but still you can setup pressure afterward the nado ends with them, so they are still useful.

 

[Nefarious B]

We can hit MK out of the top of nado, just like with any other move. I think I've even hit MK out of nado with a falling uair.

Also, ftilt tripping would be good to look into as far as what the actual chance of tripping is. It doesn't seem very high to me unfortunately, which sucks because if they do trip it's a guaranteed dsmash combo. Is there any detailed info on this?

Also, what do people think about usmash OOS? Just throwing it out there cause I haven't given it much thought myself. This is done OOS by jumping then very quickly Usmashing to cancel the jump, all while shielding.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

A-stick zss all day?

usmash oos is pretty meh, as the lower hitbox doesn't always hit them in the actual upsmash, I'd rather jab (omg jab :OOO)

 

[noradseven]

We can hit MK out of the top of nado, just like with any other move. I think I've even hit MK out of nado with a falling uair.

Also, ftilt tripping would be good to look into as far as what the actual chance of tripping is. It doesn't seem very high to me unfortunately, which sucks because if they do trip it's a guaranteed dsmash combo. Is there any detailed info on this?

Also, what do people think about usmash OOS? Just throwing it out there cause I haven't given it much thought myself. This is done OOS by jumping then very quickly Usmashing to cancel the jump, all while shielding.

I find it way to easy to dodge/DI through and get punished, I am not a fan of the u-smash.

 

[Nefarious B]

Cool stuff right hur:

Remember the ftilt lock? I found that nair3 actually sets up for it if they aren't fast enough to react to it. It's kinda like the bthrow setup where they can airdodge or tech out, but the escape window is much much smaller.

So you basically need to be at a percent at which they will be sent into tumble, but not so high that the trajectory of nair3 gets more vertical.

Try with DDD. It starts at 31 percent with him, so nair 3, paralyzer as they bounce, ftilt to continue the lock, then walk over and downsmash followup.

The window for this looks to be from 31-50ish, where you could realistically expect them to not airdodge or tech, allowing the lock.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Cool stuff right hur:

Remember the ftilt lock? I found that nair3 actually sets up for it if they aren't fast enough to react to it. It's kinda like the bthrow setup where they can airdodge or tech out, but the escape window is much much smaller.

So you basically need to be at a percent at which they will be sent into tumble, but not so high that the trajectory of nair3 gets more vertical.

Try with DDD. It starts at 31 percent with him, so nair 3, paralyzer as they bounce, ftilt to continue the lock, then walk over and downsmash followup.

The window for this looks to be from 31-50ish, where you could realistically expect them to not airdodge or tech, allowing the lock.

Try going on with dash attacks if ftilt gets out of range, like in the Zero Step (I think that was the name) tutorial.

 

[Nefarious B]

it seemed like at this percent ftilt would knock them too far away to hit them before they got up. I recommend people test it themselves though to see because dsmash is a setup into this, and it could be very useful if they miss the escape window.

 

[Nefarious B]

Added a vid of the nair setup in the OP. (double post for hype's sake)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

That's legit 0_o

Continue the lock though, you'd want some DA's or maybe more ftilts for extra damage

 

[Nixernator]

I was just testing it out then for a little bit on Snake (seemed to be the obvious one to find something awesome on). From 22% if you hit one Dsmash, and then do the Nair properly and they don't tech or AD. You can
Dsmash > Nair > Paralyzer > Ftilt > Dsmash x2 > Throw/DA>Utilt
All up it can be from 22% > 92% guaranteed if they don't tech it. Seems pretty legit for early combos out of Dsmash. (assuming you can hit them with it lol).

 

[★Malik★™]

Here's a video I made to demonstrate how nair3 can potentially setup for huge combos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQYEI206RNY

cool. i must learn this. but i have a question. after Nair>Nspecial, wouldn't like some people roll away or attack when they get up?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

cool. i must learn this. but i have a question. after Nair>Nspecial, wouldn't like some people roll away or attack when they get up?

Guarenteed get-up. Do you know the properties of a jablock?

 

[★Malik★™]

Guarenteed get-up. Do you know the properties of a jablock?

no, not really.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

no, not really.

Well if you hit them with the correct timing, they will get-up.
Using multiple attacks (i.e. 2 jabs) also does this.