Pokemon Stadium 2: Full Analysis, Gameplay Implications, and a really fair stage

[Inferno3044]

Inferno, I read your points, but are you considering how long each transformation lasts? Isn't it like 20 seconds each? Some of the transformations influence gameplay, but do they really overcentralize/skew the matchup enough to be banworthy (especially considering that they last about 20 seconds and transformations don't repeat until the stage cycles through all of them?

I just want to correct you data wise. From reading a post about PS2, it seems that each transformation lasts 30-40 seconds while the standard stage leasts between 45-55 seconds. Personally, I think that's too much time. You can get ****ed up real bad in that time. I will admit that this is a valid point to why someone can consider this a CP.

 

[Luxor]

according to BPC, FD is about as neutral as Port Town Aero Dive.

Not true. PTAD is clearly more balanced, no one wants to CP that.

Lack of hazards does not a starter make.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

God dammit. Wrote a massive monster-post on the subject and then my friend deleted it. ****ing bull****. I'll get to the counterpoints eventually.

 

[Life]

As a random, I would like Inferno to enlighten/correct me on the following points.

I feel like you missed some things about why PS2 is ban worthy. I used to think that this could be a legit CP and was proven otherwise. This is all unbiased

Obviously it's not unbiased, as it's a post in favor of one side of the argument. No post in this thread that takes any sides is unbiased, this one included.

On the ice stage characters can slide around and charge up safe smashes (eg. MK's Dsmash and Fsmash). It also messes up characters by disrupting their spacing and heavily increasing shield push making tons of things that shouldn't be safe on block be as such. This also gives ICs a solid advantage because the ice doesn't effect their movement and doesn't mess them up at all.

Other than the IC's thing, this applies to all characters (not just MK) so the stage remains fair. Regarding IC's, they'll most likely rather counterpick to SV provided the opponent is intelligent enough to ban FD or is not playing a character that likes FD as well.

Ground stage you can't really complain about. There's a temporary wall infinite but it's legal.

K.

Electric and fire are not the same and shouldn't be compared. Anyways, the electric stage just really interferes with standard play. A ground based character like Snake's only option is to center camp. Shaya's point is mostly wrong as well. It doesn't give you more options because most of your options bring you back to the ledge. Basically he's saying that the best thing to do is plank (which not all characters can do, much less well). It also interrupts edgeguarding which is a big part of this game.

This I won't argue with.

Air. This is where I'm really upset at this. You did not at all address the problems of the air stage. You basically said that people think X character is broken and said "No. You're wrong." The biggest trouble with the air stage is that it's ridiculously easy to juggle and rack up damage. Everyone falls ridiculously slow so it's really easy to follow your opponent and punish whatever they do if you're below them. They can't air dodge because you won't fall past your opponent and get *****. Anything else can be easily followed and punished once they got hit. Some characters are really good at punishing airdodges and here it makes it all the more worse. You don't have to be airborne to juggle the **** out of them btw. You can just be on the ground and punish their landing.

So you're saying juggling is overcentralizing? One tactic being buffed for 30sec-1min a match? I suppose I should take your word for it until someone better than I comes along to refute it...

As a whole stop thinking that we are just being babies because we don't wanna "learn the stage."

Fix'd?

We know that not all stages are the same. The standard 5 neutrals all have different pros and cons.

There are a "standard five"? I know there's a standard three: YIB, SV, BF. FD is bumped to a seven-stage starter list according to 3.1 (yet is included in most five-stage lists anyway) and the fifth spot varies between PS1 (!) and Lylat.

The reason that those are considered the "neutral stages" is because they are the stages that were seen to have little or no gameplay change (stage control isn't included).

Neutral stages are/should be neutral because they are the fairest. Whether fair is defined as "static" (in which case I propose our neutrals be BF, FD, and Temple) or "most even" (in which case there's much more variance) is the point of contention.

The reason people see PS2 as banworthy is because the transformations significantly interrupt standard gameplay by having to go through all of these obstacles.

Could you define "standard gameplay"? Last time I checked, the game still revolves around picking MK (I kid, I kid) knocking your opponent through a blast zone in a variety of ways. Whereas on Mario Bros (the stage that this is normally cited as a ban criterion for) the game revolves around running around chucking enemies at each other for OHKOs. Perhaps that's not the best way to state it, but the difference between normal neutrals and PS2 is miniscule compared to that.

You basically have to rely on taking advantage of the stage to play well here. That is not good for competitive play.

You have to take advantage of every stage in the game to win, it's what separates SSB from other fighters. I'll take advantage of FD by picking IC's and chaingrabbing you to death. I'll take advantage of Brinstar/RC by picking MK. I'll take advantage of PS2 by... uh... help me out here.

A change of MU percentages are not a reason to ban a stage. I can't think of a character that heavily benefits from Wario Ware but that's still banned. Why? Because there are random factors in the game that interfere with competitive play. Although I wouldn't consider PS2's changes to be random, it is definitely game changing and messes people up.

The two aren't remotely comparable. Wario Ware breaks one character--no, player--or the other totally at random. PS2's transformations, while randomly shuffled, follow patterns, give plenty of warning, and are much more consistent about who gets buffed and who doesn't. If it messes people up, it's because they don't know the stage, same as any other stage.

LMAO! I really hope you aren't serious with this.

Hyberbole?

Although I know where you're coming from with this, it isn't a valid argument. Just because some people abuse strategies on certain stages doesn't make it legal. I'll give some examples of learning strategies that are reasons to ban any stage with permanent on stage deathlines such as Bridge, Green Hill Zone, etc.

1. I'm a Dedede, Pikachu or Yoshi . I'm just going to camp until my opponent approaches and then grab the opponent and kill them with a walkoff. Repeat 2 more times. (Note: there are very few characters that don't get chaingrabbed by at least one of these characters)
2. I'm Olimar. I'm gonna get you to about 40% then deathline camp and kill you with Bthrow (preferably blue pikmin). This also works with any other character with a good grab and Bthrow.

Those are strategies that would only work on those kinds of stages, but are reasons to ban it.

How is this relevant? PS2 contains no walkoffs, nor does BPC's quote have relevance to them.

I also want to say that I know this from experience. I was at a tourney and Ninjalink was talking about stages I said that PS2 should be legal. He knows that actions speak louder than words so we went to PS2 and he was able to heavily take advantage of me on each transformation because of the stage itself.

I had two reactions upon reading this, and I'm not sure which way I should go:
1. Vids or it didn't happen.
2. Ninjalink knew the stage better than you.

I suspect 1 may show 2.

TL;DR version:

TL;DR Teach me wise one!

 

[Justin Wiles]

Yeah, and I did it without insulting anyone/the whole community. Yay!

All right. First of all, to understand this argument, you have to accept that adapting to stages is a good thing. It is a positive thing to the game when we force players to adapt to a stage being "different" from others, as it makes them learn more about the game. If you do not agree with this concept, then you find the ideal stagelist to contain one stage (usually Final Destination)...

Hmm... borderline

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Things in this color (plum) are subjective.

You have never been to a tournament or placed well, your argument is invalid.

I may be willing to listen after you get some skill, as well as stop trying to get the glorious master race of tournament players to play on this drivel.

Enjoy never being good.

Yeah, but that's like, just your opinion man.

sorry, but the air stage throws this off to the ban list along with temple and skyworld.
the air stage is just so far from fair its not even funny, yeah no-one in particualr is broken there but it completely changes gameplay and any kind of vertical k.o moves becomes too efficient and air planking becomes a legit tactic even for d3

You know what else makes vertical kill moves too good? The low ceiling on halberd. You know what makes them suck too much? The high ceiling on Jungle Japes. You know what all stages have in common? They affect how players interact through platform setup, ledge setup, hazards, transformations, and physics changes. The fact that the stage boost vertical kill moves slightly is not only not a bannable offense, it is also incredibly temporary. If you think that is a bannable offense, then I welcome you to pick a stage with the ideal vertical KO blastline, and ban every stage that has different KO %s.

Also, you say that air planking is a viable strategy even for chars like DDD... Yes, it becomes a solid defensive tactic of runaway. Which will work for 40 seconds, tops. Then the transformation is over and you go back to "Oh look I'm a fastfaller". And a camping tactic can be completely unbeatable for all we care; if it's only possible for 30-100 seconds each round, then it is most definitely not broken. If you disagree with this, then use the same logic and ban castle siege and pokemon stadium 1, and any other stage with strong temporary camping.

good work for all the research though, but there is a distinct lack of numerical evidense that makes it all jsut look like one big opinionated article

What numerical evidence? What Would you require? Kill %s on air, or what? There's not exactly much numerical evidence to get on a stage like this.

This is the main flaw in everything you've said. Changing the gameplay at a physics level is bad. The game is Brawl, and the physics work a specific way. When you mess up the way people move, the way then run, the speed at which they fall, you are changing the game. It is no longer Brawl.

Of course it is. Now, if we were hacking the game to make it randomly change its physics, I'd say that you're right. But the fact is, you can't argue that something is "no longer brawl" when it is in the game. Might as well argue that the gameplay on temple hyrule, Final Destination, and Battlefield are no longer brawl because it isn't interrupted by movements or hazards. Seriously. Count the stages with no stage movement or interaction (Battlefield, Final Destination, Temple Hyrule, and a few that are absolutely borderline like Yoshi's Island: Melee), then count the stages with temporary or permanent physics changes (PS2, Pirate Ship, Summit). It comes out to about the same.

The fact is, if it's in the game, you can't say it's no longer brawl. Is brawl with items no longer brawl? Of course not, items are a part of the game. Is brawl without items still brawl? Of course it is, brawl lets us choose to turn them on or off. Is brawl on Summit, where you not only slip around, but you have water, a OHKO hazard, and stupidly strong vertical physics boost, still brawl? Yes, of course it is! It's not balanced or fair, sure, but it's still brawl. Now PS2's transformations, which are balanced and fair? Oh yeah. Not only a part of brawl, but a completely reasonable part of competitive brawl

I feel no need to discuss whether or not any character has an advantage or disadvantage when the main issue is that the stage changes Brawl to something else.

Again, it does not! It changes brawl to something else as much as any other stage does!

One of the main reasons we still play Brawl in tournaments and not Brawl+ is because of the physics changes. One of the main reasons there are arguments about which is better between melee and brawl is the physics. And PS2 is one of those stages where the whole metagame is changed by the stage.

...and brawl expects us to deal with it, as evidenced by the fact that it is in the game.

You can use the same argument about items. It is a MAJOR influence on the game, rather than the minor influence of the legal stages. Starter stages especially are not supposed to "add another layer of gameplay".

Yeah, but that's like, just your opinion man. Why shouldn't they? What is the purpose of the starter list? Isn't the goal of separating certain stages from others to strike from to find the most fair stage for the matchup without taking way too much time? And if not, what's the reasonable reason for your feeling (that stages should not add another layer of gameplay)?

I feel like you missed some things about why PS2 is ban worthy. I used to think that this could be a legit CP and was proven otherwise. This is all unbiased

On the ice stage characters can slide around and charge up safe smashes (eg. MK's Dsmash and Fsmash). It also messes up characters by disrupting their spacing and heavily increasing shield push making tons of things that shouldn't be safe on block be as such. This also gives ICs a solid advantage because the ice doesn't effect their movement and doesn't mess them up at all.

All right first of all, it only messes up players. It does NOT mess up characters. It enhances characters' options, it helps them space things safely, makes more things safe, etc.

The whole thing about the ice stage is that it only hurts you if you have no idea how to use it correctly. It hurts you if your opponent is better at it than you. And it perhaps effects how a few gameplay elements work. No biggie, compare to almost any stage in the game. No matter what, you have to adapt. This is merely raising the bar just a little bit, and ultimately not enough to make a difference. In fact, I'd say there is no "too far" as far as required skill goes. Why should there be? It forces the player to be good in order to be successful, and that is virtually the definition of competitive.
Either way, the game asks you to adapt to it.

Ground stage you can't really complain about. There's a temporary wall infinite but it's legal.

Yeah.

Electric and fire are not the same and shouldn't be compared. Anyways, the electric stage just really interferes with standard play.

Ooh, there's that nasty phrase again. "Standard Play". It just feels... nasty. There is no "standard play". Get over that word.

A ground based character like Snake's only option is to center camp.

Or, if someone else has the middle, camp the platform on the left, or the ledge.

Shaya's point is mostly wrong as well. It doesn't give you more options because most of your options bring you back to the ledge. Basically he's saying that the best thing to do is plank (which not all characters can do, much less well).

First of all, so what if the only option you have is planking? In PS1 fire, you have two options, go approach your opponent, and camp under the tree. It's like your option to either camp the ledge, camp the middle, or approach the person camping. The option to approach is there, it just really sucks. If this is a problem, ban PS1 as well, and then ban Castle Siege.

It also interrupts edgeguarding which is a big part of this game.

Err... What? Again, Castle Siege. Ban Castle Siege. First of all, edgeguarding is a big part of brawl, yes. However, not every stage asks it or demands it-we happen to have most of the ones that stop demanding it, even shortly, banned for completely different reasons (walkoff camping). The fact that a stage allows you to circumvent it does not mean that stage is bannable, it means that that element is less effective on that stage. Just like horizontal kill moves are less effective on FD, vertical kill moves are less effective on Jungle Japes, and ground-based stage control is less effective on brinstar. Should we ban every stage where an element we are used to by the "standard" conventions is less useful than normal? If so, then that's... um... again, every stage except the arbitrarily-chosen "best" stage.

Air. This is where I'm really upset at this. You did not at all address the problems of the air stage. You basically said that people think X character is broken and said "No. You're wrong."

Proof. I demand PROOF! It's not that I haven't heard that anyone is broken on the stage. I haven't heard about anyone being broken on this stage that I find remotely realistic. I've heard MK-and I have found from my experience, on both ends, that he sucks at juggling against all but 2 characters (the 2 who are slower in the air than MK) on this part of the stage and is fairly slow at getting back to the ground. I've heard sonic and I know he's GOOD, but I really find it hard to believe that he is broken. Especially when you recognize that it's up for literally at max 80-100 seconds per 8-minute match, making stalling tactics that rely on it virtually useless and requiring you to read your opponent very well.

The biggest trouble with the air stage is that it's ridiculously easy to juggle and rack up damage. Everyone falls ridiculously slow so it's really easy to follow your opponent and punish whatever they do if you're below them. They can't air dodge because you won't fall past your opponent and get *****. Anything else can be easily followed and punished once they got hit. Some characters are really good at punishing airdodges and here it makes it all the more worse. You don't have to be airborne to juggle the **** out of them btw. You can just be on the ground and punish their landing.

Or you can rely on your massive ability to move backwards/forwards on the stage without fear of edgeguarding, and get away from the **** that way. If you have a better air speed, it's easy. Otherwise it's still possible. Now, although they may be flawed, from my personal play experience, the ability to juggle on this part of the stage is vastly overrated. I not only have no proof of juggling being too good on the stage, but I also have my personal experience, plus pretty good theory against it. I want someone to show this in high level play, or just show me personally.

As a whole stop thinking that we are just being babies because we don't wanna "get over it." We know that not all stages are the same. The standard 5 neutrals all have different pros and cons. The reason that those are considered the "neutral stages" is because they are the stages that were seen to have little or no gameplay change (stage control isn't included). The reason people see PS2 as banworthy is because the transformations significantly interrupt standard gameplay

Oh my god stop saying that. Also, "little to no gameplay change" is a fairly ridiculously arbitrary condition, especially in a game like brawl.

by having to go through all of these obstacles. You basically have to rely on taking advantage of the stage to play well here. That is not good for competitive play.

Tee hee. Seriously, this is so ridiculously biased and subjective, it's not even funny. In fact, as it's been shown in other threads, it's flat-out wrong.

A change of MU percentages are not a reason to ban a stage. I can't think of a character that heavily benefits from Wario Ware but that's still banned. Why? Because there are random factors in the game that interfere with competitive play. Although I wouldn't consider PS2's changes to be random, it is definitely game changing and messes people up.

And there goes your credibility. You are completely failing to differentiate between why stages are banned. You do this below as well.

Wario Ware being banned has nothing to do with matchup-skewing. In fact, it's literally one of the only stages in the game (the only other legitimate one being Mario Bros) that is not banned due, at least in part, to matchup skewing (don't say PTAD; smart people ban that stage because of the lack of ledges, not the cars). It is banned due to excessive, unavoidable, arbitrary randomness, completely incomparable to PS2's "randomness".

LMAO! I really hope you aren't serious with this.

I am.

Although I know where you're coming from with this, it isn't a valid argument. Just because some people abuse strategies on certain stages doesn't make it legal. I'll give some examples of learning strategies that are reasons to ban any stage with permanent on stage deathlines such as Bridge, Green Hill Zone, etc.

1. I'm a Dedede, Pikachu or Yoshi . I'm just going to camp until my opponent approaches and then grab the opponent and kill them with a walkoff. Repeat 2 more times. (Note: there are very few characters that don't get chaingrabbed by at least one of these characters)
2. I'm Olimar. I'm gonna get you to about 40% then deathline camp and kill you with Bthrow (preferably blue pikmin). This also works with any other character with a good grab and Bthrow.

Those are strategies that would only work on those kinds of stages, but are reasons to ban it.

BZZZZZT! If you can't see the difference between blastzone camping/chaingrabbing off the side and the changes in PS2, let me help you out: (Excessive) Matchup Skewing. Eldin is not banned because it forces you to know the walkoff strategies. It is banned because, not only does it force you to only know those strategies, reducing gameplay significantly, but it reduces the viable cast to those that are good at that strategy, essentially removing a whole lot of strategy from the game.

If you cannot tell the difference between these, then you don't belong in this discussion. It's pretty simple. The strategies on Eldin and GHZ have the issue of not only not extending gameplay, but reducing gameplay extremely. It's like with temple hyrule, where gameplay is reduced to the fastest character only. Seriously, I know from the rest of your post that you're better than this.

I also want to say that I know this from experience. I was at a tourney and Ninjalink was talking about stages I said that PS2 should be legal. He knows that actions speak louder than words so we went to PS2 and he was able to heavily take advantage of me on each transformation because of the stage itself.

Because you didn't know the stage. At all. If he is taking advantage of you, then:
-He is better than you
-He knows the stage better than you
-He's ****ing ninjalink (both of the above).

Correct me if I'm wrong here... But I sincerely doubt that you knew PS2 as well as he did if he destroyed you like that.

Hmm... borderline

Oh come on.

 

[Inferno3044]

As a random, I would like Inferno to enlighten/correct me on the following points.

Obviously it's not unbiased, as it's a post in favor of one side of the argument. No post in this thread that takes any sides is unbiased, this one included.

Okay. This is technically correct. I meant I'm not one of those guys that is like "lol PS2 is dumb."

Other than the IC's thing, this applies to all characters (not just MK) so the stage remains fair. Regarding IC's, they'll most likely rather counterpick to SV provided the opponent is intelligent enough to ban FD or is not playing a character that likes FD as well.

I used MK as an example because his moves are generally safe. My point was that there's massive sliding that certain characters such as MK can use to charge up a safe on block move. For most players, the sliding really hinders your play because you'll slide far which can either mess up your spacing or make you unable to punish things that are normally punishable on block.

So you're saying juggling is overcentralizing? One tactic being buffed for 30sec-1min a match? I suppose I should take your word for it until someone better than I comes along to refute it...

I'm not saying that. The thing is that on the air stage, you fall so slow that you your opponent can easily juggle you to death. 30 seconds of juggling is a LOT of damage. As Mario, I have juggled opponents to around 60ish just by punishing my opponent's attempt to land on FD in much less time then 30 seconds. It gets much worse on PS2 because you don't fall fast enough to land. Therefore, more damage will rack up and you can possibly die in those 30 seconds because of the stage. Also another point is that normally to stop juggling you can air dodge. That doesn't work for the same reasons.

There are a "standard five"? I know there's a standard three: YIB, SV, BF. FD is bumped to a seven-stage starter list according to 3.1 (yet is included in most five-stage lists anyway) and the fifth spot varies between PS1 (!) and Lylat.

BF, FD, SV, YI, and Lylat. Also 3.1 starters are SV, BF, and FD. Not YI.

Neutral stages are/should be neutral because they are the fairest. Whether fair is defined as "static" (in which case I propose our neutrals be BF, FD, and Temple) or "most even" (in which case there's much more variance) is the point of contention.

Neutral stages being the fairest is what I said lol. They don't really effect how you play. They each have their own difference and specialty but they aren't game changing. Btw temple is banned because of circle camping.

Could you define "standard gameplay"? Last time I checked, the game still revolves around picking MK (I kid, I kid) knocking your opponent through a blast zone in a variety of ways. Whereas on Mario Bros (the stage that this is normally cited as a ban criterion for) the game revolves around running around chucking enemies at each other for OHKOs. Perhaps that's not the best way to state it, but the difference between normal neutrals and PS2 is miniscule compared to that.

Basically "standard gameplay" is two (or four) characters fighting trying to eliminate their opponent with little to no distractions from the stage. Also, comparing banned stages to each other isn't intelligent. To say that one stage is "more ban worthy" than another doesn't give it reason to not be banned.

You have to take advantage of every stage in the game to win, it's what separates SSB from other fighters. I'll take advantage of FD by picking IC's and chaingrabbing you to death. I'll take advantage of Brinstar/RC by picking MK. I'll take advantage of PS2 by... uh... help me out here.

You're talking about stage control. I am not saying that taking advantage of a stage (FD's lack of platforms, ability to shark on Brinstar) is bad. Since you mentioned Mario Bros. earlier I'll use that as an example. On that stage, there is a big focus on throwing the items to kill your opponent. The stage basically changes how you have to play to an extreme proportion. Although not as big for PS2, each of the transformations really change how you play significantly during each transformation.

The two aren't remotely comparable. Wario Ware breaks one character--no, player--or the other totally at random. PS2's transformations, while randomly shuffled, follow patterns, give plenty of warning, and are much more consistent about who gets buffed and who doesn't. If it messes people up, it's because they don't know the stage, same as any other stage.

You are missing my point. I didn't quote him directly so that might have caused some confusion. He said that PS2 should be a starter (or legal. insignificant though) because it doesn't change MU percents. My point was that just because it doesn't change MU percentages doesn't mean it should be legal. I used Wario Ware as an example because that stage doesn't favor any character but is still banned for other reasons. Don't put the stages next to each other. I'm just using an example from another stage to counter his point that just because a stage doesn't change MUs doesn't mean it should be legal.

Hyberbole?

Seriously, this guy said that PS2 is as legal of a stage as FD, BF, and SV. This is just not true. He emphasized that point which is why I laughed

How is this relevant? PS2 contains no walkoffs, nor does BPC's quote have relevance to them.

Once again missing my point. He said that people have learned how to play on PS2 and anyone who's anti-PS2 doesn't want to adapt to the stage/playstyles of the stage. I gave a very useful strategy on how to win on Bridge of Eldin. As I said before, I didn't intend to compare PS2 side by side with Bridge of Eldin saying that they are similar. I'm comparing stages to counter his point by saying "there are effective strategies on this stage too but it's still banned."

I had two reactions upon reading this, and I'm not sure which way I should go:

1. Vids or it didn't happen.
2. Ninjalink knew the stage better than you.

I suspect 1 may show 2

We didn't really fight. We just waited for each transformation to come and then fought and showed me how he can take huge advantage of the various factors of each form. My point is that I'm not just saying things to keep this stage banned. I actually know through experiencing it. I do respect how you want visual proof though.

The point for why I think this stage should be banned is because there are factors in the stage that significantly alter how you have to play.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I feel that you should mention G&W's uair in the air transformation. It can KO at very low percentages here even when G&W is a Full Jump's(in the air transformation) distance away from the ground when opponent that is above him a small distance away.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I will as soon as I see a vid/look into it personally.

 

[TheEnigmaLiesBroken]

LOL. All because the Brawl Minus guys wanted to Freeze the stage.

 

[[TSON]]

wall infinites
situations where if you approach, you lose
camping/stalling up the ***
huge stage boundaries
and a big rotating series of walls that can save you in any situation

every transformation has a glaring issue. its niche as a debatable counterpick/banned stage is where it belongs.

 

[Luxor]

Guys, a big tl;dr for BPC: Temple and Eldin are both banned for being too strong for some characters (Fox/Sonic for Temple, D3 + Co. for Eldin). That's it. They're unbalanced. PS2 is amazingly balanced. Almost no character would ever CP this stage- it's not an overpowered or even a strong option for any character in the game. FD and BF are CPs for many characters. PS2 is completely unbroken, fair, and amazing. Plus there's the whole "legit until proven broken" justice system. PS2 does not marginalize skill by skewing matchups or randomness. It is amazing. Eternal Yoshi, bless hus heart, brought up the only possibly valid reason to ban this stage: Overpoweredness for G&W. It shouldn't be banned for that unless it's proven to be totally broken, either.

@TSON Are you thinking of PS1? PS2 has no big rotating series of walls to save you. I don't think anyone wanrs PS1 banned because of the windmill, either- it adds interesting depth and strategy to the match for a limited time only. Also, this is Brawl. If you approach you lose no matter what stage you're on.

 

[Inferno3044]

There is a big point that is missed or not been really addressed: Physic changing. On a competitive level, this shouldn't be in. Yes it provides something different, but it's different enough to be game changing. Things large enough to basic give a player the game/set because of a stage is bad. I'm not saying you shouldn't like these stages. I love Big Blue, Spear Pillar, Wario Ware, etc. but for standard competitive play it's bad.

 

[Tesh]

I'm not quite sure this would make for a starter in a 3 or 5 stage list, but I don't see why it would be reasonably banned if you keep stages like RC legal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxm2POQnJLg

Alot of characters can do some pretty crazy stuff here, but its all very easy to avoid if you understand the stage. There are other legal stages where some characters can score really easy kills during certain transformations. MK on RC, DDD on Delfino/Castle Siege, Wario on Smashville . The game & watch thing is pretty easy to avoid.

The juggling on the air stage is offset by how easy it is to stall in the air with so many characters.

No other legal stages has ice, reduced gravity or moving floors, but that hardly seems like a reason to ban the stage. Summit and Pirate ship simply have other issues that cloud the issue imo.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I need to look into this more, but if my theory proves right, G&W could get OHKO's using the air stage.

Oh. That last section in the video kinda did it for me.

 

[Tesh]

I had a bit of trouble pulling it off in training mode, I'm skeptical about how effective it is against an actual player.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

it seems to be more effective if the victim does something to increase his vertical momentum while being hit with the windbox, like using a midair jump, or certain specials like Fox's shine, and Mario's cape.

 

[Luxor]

Inferno: Why is it bad if the physics change for a minute? Answer. All it is is 1 global change for ~40 seconds. Makes much less of a difference than adding a plat to FD and calling it SV does. If it's uncompetitive, the worse player should win. When does that happen? Does it?

 

[Life]

I had a bit of trouble pulling it off in training mode, I'm skeptical about how effective it is against an actual player.

I also tried it in training mode and couldn't do it. This may have been because I tested with Mario who's heavier than MK (there's only four characters lighter than MK, along with Pikachu being tied, according to this) and/or just me sucking.

But in the video, MK could have easily daired the second uair and been fine, correct?

 

[Tesh]

Well no, being pushed up there is going to kill you if its from an unfriendly source. Using an aerial won't affect what a windbox from uair does to you. I think you just have to be fairly close to someone to give them the full blast to kill them really early (and I don't think it will work if they airdodge, the 2nd puff will miss).

I only got it to work once actually, but it's probably most effective if you hit them very close range with it.

Edit: I understand what you mean now. Yea due to how close you have to be for it to work(apparently), MK can probably trade hits and stop the 2nd puff from hitting him.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm not quite sure this would make for a starter in a 3 or 5 stage list, but I don't see why it would be reasonably banned if you keep stages like RC legal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxm2POQnJLg

Alot of characters can do some pretty crazy stuff here, but its all very easy to avoid if you understand the stage. There are other legal stages where some characters can score really easy kills during certain transformations. MK on RC, DDD on Delfino/Castle Siege, Wario on Smashville . The game & watch thing is pretty easy to avoid.

The juggling on the air stage is offset by how easy it is to stall in the air with so many characters.

No other legal stages has ice, reduced gravity or moving floors, but that hardly seems like a reason to ban the stage. Summit and Pirate ship simply have other issues that cloud the issue imo.

RC isn't a bad stage. People only say that because MK is extremely amazing there and most of the other top characters aren't. Secondly, what the G&W did on the ice stage was one of my key points to why it's not good. He was able to charge his Fsmash and slide half the stage. I noticed that you mentioned D3 on Delfino and CS. Okay so he has walkoffs there (or banana lock with Diddy). The layout of the stage though makes it able to avoid such tactics. On PS2, it's basically unavoidable. It forces you to do very few things.

I actually forgot to mention how the air stage promotes stalling which is a banned tactic. Even then it's still easy to juggle assuming you can get to the person. A character like Wario though you aren't going to catch. I know that Summit was banned for other reasons (no ledge, fish) but it's not like the ice and temporary low gravity didn't change things (although the temporary change in gravity is much less of that stage)

The reasons you said are very good reasons to ban a stage. Having characters able to charge a smash while sliding half the stage isn't good. Reduced gravity either calls for running away or stalling defensively. The moving floor is just bad because it's a moving floor.

Inferno: Why is it bad if the physics change for a minute? Answer. All it is is 1 global change for ~40 seconds. Makes much less of a difference than adding a plat to FD and calling it SV does. If it's uncompetitive, the worse player should win. When does that happen? Does it?

First of all, are you seriously saying that these changes to PS2 is less significant than SV? First of all SV has the stage length of about BF, no lip, and a moving platform. That's it. PS2 has extremely lowered gravity, the ground moves you off stage and you slide around a lot. Someone can easily take heavy advantage of these physics.

Second, yeah it might be 40 seconds but you gotta talk about that amount of time relatively. A lot can happen in 40 seconds. Characters can easily rack up damage to kill percents in 40 seconds. Now take these physics of a character sliding across the stage with a charged smash, juggling someone to oblivion (or excessive stalling), reducing your area to a small area in the middle, the ledges, and a platform. **** can happen. Also on an average 8 minute game, it will transform 5 times (200 seconds). That's almost half of the game being messed up by these changes.

Your last point is just lol worthy. I almost think that you either just wanted another point or really didn't think it through. To answer this, no it does not mean that the worse player will win, but a worse player can win due to taking heavy advantage of the stage changes. Just because PS2 isn't as bad a stage as other banned stages like Summit or Wario Ware doesn't mean it should be legal.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

There is a big point that is missed or not been really addressed: Physic changing. On a competitive level, this shouldn't be in.

Need I dig up the definition of competitive? Are you saying that due to these physics changes, the worse player starts winning, as opposed to the better player? You give absolutely no justification for your statement. Why are physics changes anticompetitive? They change the competitive focus slightly and force you to be good at dealing with them (hmm... the better player still wins...)-just like, you know, every element of every stage ever does.

Yes it provides something different, but it's different enough to be game changing.

So does platform cancelling. Which all characters can do. Which only certain stages allow. Which certain characters gain more or less from.
So does the moving platform on Smashville-it's amazingly different, to the extent where, although FD is easily wario's worst stage, just this one moving platform turns FD 2.0 into a decent wario stage.
Again, you are saying that it's "different enough to be game-changing"–the issue with this is not that you're wrong in saying that it's game-changing; it is. The issue is thinking that that's good reason to ban the stage when the transformation has an extremely limited and predictable level of randomness, when it affects all characters in the same way, and when the stage still remains ridiculously balanced (well, okay, maaaaybe G&W likes it. Even then, he has a LOT of good counterpicks and those strategies looked gimmicky at best).

Things large enough to basically give a player the game/set because of a stage is bad.

All right. Why does any part of PS2 give a player the game? Are you assuming an experienced player on PS2 who knows the stage against an inexperienced player who doesn't? If yes, then why is this not a legitimate, competitive way of defeating an opponent? If not, why did the less experienced player lose? What situation can you possibly conceive? The entire point of the stage is that it takes skills to use correctly.

I'm not saying you shouldn't like these stages. I love Big Blue, Spear Pillar, Wario Ware, etc. but for standard competitive play it's bad.

STOP DOING THAT. You are trying to analogize this stage with the typical "obviously banned" stages. That's not fair at all.

Large list of transformations that apply to PS1

So... Ban PS1.

every transformation has a glaring issue. its niche as a debatable counterpick/banned stage is where it belongs.

TSON, this is exactly what I hate about you. Seriously, if you have nothing worthwhile to offer the thread-not even reading the ****ing OP, then kindly leave. You're being a stupid little brat, just like whenever I tried to argue with you in the Brawl- chatroom. You close your eyes, revert to the same old standard arguments that have all been completely refuted, or you don't even bother and say something like "BPC is a scrub". In this case, you not only apparently failed to read the god**** OP (or at least, you are acting like it), but you seem to be arguing against PS1... I'm sorry, but really? This is low, even for you. Now kindly either post something even remotely productive or get the **** out of my thread.

LOL. All because the Brawl Minus guys wanted to Freeze the stage.

No, it's been a while coming. This has been necessary every since regions decided to ban the stage. I.e. about 2 years.

 

[Tesh]

@Inferno
Summit is banned due to circle camping the solid piece of ice in the middle. The other issues you mentioned may hurt it more, but its certainly not banned for having or or low/high gravity. If the stage randomly picked hits to kill earlier/later, then I would understand, but pokemon stadium 1 and 2 give you a huge 5+ second warning before the layout/physics change. No one is going to randomly be saved from an edgeguard because the air phase showed up.

Maybe Delfino should be banned too, since water might randomly save people and it changes physics by letting people swim offstage instead of fall.

Sliding around for 30 seconds charging smashes is hardly broken. If you retreat while charging, big deal, people don't have to run into it and get killed. If you approach with it, its horrible because it makes safe long ranged smashes very easy to shield grab.

I'm surprised you brought up stalling as a reason to ban PS2. Unless someone can get up so high during that phase and stall for 7+ minutes, I find that to be laughable. Delfino ,PS1 and Pictochat already have transformations that promote camping so an extent that makes approaching a suicide tactic. Wario can't "stall" during the air phase. He just has great aerial mobility and will likely escape you because of that. And 30 seconds later, its back to normal and you can chase him with your ground speed (hopefully).

Rainbow Cruise promotes stalling too. And pokemon stadium 1 wastes the same amount of time assuming 1 person camps the "good spot" on each transformation. Grass is the only one that doesn't have walls/ceilings to hide behind.

 

[Raziek]

I did not read the last few posts, but anyone who says physics changing or "Disrupting STANDARD (completely subjective, btw) gameplay" is a valid ban reason needs to be promptly kicked in the sack.

Amazing post, BPC.

Nova Scotia is giving PS2 a test run as a starter stage this Saturday, I expect good results.

PS2 FOR LIFE.

Edit: I'll be back to this thread sometime after I get moved into University to finish off some of these AWFUL arguments against this stage.

 

[Xyless]

wall infinites
situations where if you approach, you lose
camping/stalling up the ***
huge stage boundaries
and a big rotating series of walls that can save you in any situation

every transformation has a glaring issue. its niche as a debatable counterpick/banned stage is where it belongs.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

RC isn't a bad stage. People only say that because MK is extremely amazing there and most of the other top characters aren't.

Thank you for recognizing this. So many people fail to, it's disturbing.

Secondly, what the G&W did on the ice stage was one of my key points to why it's not good. He was able to charge his Fsmash and slide half the stage.

And it's a built-in advantage of his moveset on the ice transformation. It is also not one that is unfairly broken.

I noticed that you mentioned D3 on Delfino and CS. Okay so he has walkoffs there (or banana lock with Diddy). The layout of the stage though makes it able to avoid such tactics. On PS2, it's basically unavoidable. It forces you to do very few things.

Like... Jump over then punish the lag, or punish OOS? Are you claiming that it is broken, or something? If it isn't broken, and it is clearly a built-in, required thing in the game, what's the issue here?

I actually forgot to mention how the air stage promotes stalling which is a banned tactic.

Define "stalling". It promotes a strong camping environment... And of course, even if it is "stalling", it only works for a good 40 seconds until it disappears.

Even then it's still easy to juggle assuming you can get to the person.

It's really not as easy as you think.

A character like Wario though you aren't going to catch.

And then he lands 40 seconds later.

I know that Summit was banned for other reasons (no ledge, fish) but it's not like the ice and temporary low gravity didn't change things (although the temporary change in gravity is much less of that stage)

They change things but they are under no circumstances bannable on their own.

The reasons you said are very good reasons to ban a stage. Having characters able to charge a smash while sliding half the stage isn't good.

Why not? Is it broken? Is it too strong of a strategy during this 40-second transformation, to the extent that you absolutely are guaranteed to get a kill? That stalling it out will not work? That you absolutely cannot counter it despite having long startup and endlag?

If it's not broken, then why are you banning it? Because it's campy? Because the strongest tactic is camping? Because you think this is not cool for completely arbitrary reasons?

Reduced gravity either calls for running away or stalling defensively.

See above. Again, it's either broken, or its not bannable.

The moving floor is just bad because it's a moving floor.

Non-interactive stages are just bad because they are non-interactive. What you are saying is completely and utterly arbitrary and has no basis in competitive thought.

Second, yeah it might be 40 seconds but you gotta talk about that amount of time relatively. A lot can happen in 40 seconds. Characters can easily rack up damage to kill percents in 40 seconds. Now take these physics of a character sliding across the stage with a charged smash, juggling someone to oblivion (or excessive stalling), reducing your area to a small area in the middle, the ledges, and a platform. **** can happen. Also on an average 8 minute game, it will transform 5 times (200 seconds). That's almost half of the game being messed up by these changes.

Now the trick is, for the most part, that your camping/stalling will be stopped when the stage transforms back. Camping the center makes no sense outside of electricity. Aircamping doesn't really work outside of air. Camping the side of the wall is useless on all but one transformation. Now put this together with the 40-second transformation of neutral, and what do you get if you try to stall... Pokemon Stadium 1. And again, you're only getting messed up if you're bad at the stage.

Your last point is just lol worthy. I almost think that you either just wanted another point or really didn't think it through. To answer this, no it does not mean that the worse player will win, but a worse player can win due to taking heavy advantage of the stage changes.

But we've established that unless there's a major difference in player skill on the stage, this is not going to happen. Now why is that not a legitimate way of winning? If I DI right, tech off the top of the stage near the end of the boat stage, do I lose because I had less skill? The ability to adapt to stages is a skill in brawl. This has ALSO been established many times. Now if you are THAT much better at it than your opponent, why is it not legitimate to reward you for it?

Just because PS2 isn't as bad a stage as other banned stages like Summit or Wario Ware doesn't mean it should be legal.

YOU ARE DOING IT AGAIN. It's like you're trying through false propaganda to connect PS2 to the hardcore banned stages. It's stupid.

EDIT: I haz raziek's support. yay.

EDIT2: Lmao@xyless

 

[Luxor]

Raziek, I need to move to Nova Scotia.

BPC... you need to come. Although I might meet you IRL someday anyway since I'm moving to Europe =/

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, all you guys can swing by Nova Scotia and enjoy our Liberal Stagelists.

9-starts with PS2? PTAD, GG, DP, the works? WE HAZ IT ALL.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No can do. I main Metaknight, remember guys? Metaknight and only Metaknight. My second-best character (marth) is utter garbage and I honestly cbf to make him better.

But if you guys swing by my region, I'll be running that kind of stagelist at my smashfests (assuming I ever get them up and running...) plus MK legal. :V

 

[Raziek]

Oh right, we banned MK too, yeah, that one was kind of important.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, G&W on ice... As someone with experience, I can say it's a handy trick, but it's not even that good. Once the opponent stops being awed by how it works and starts actually fighting back, it doesn't do much to make landing those smashes easier since they don't hit any earlier.

 

[DunnoBro]

HEY GUYS
LOL HOW COME PS2 IS FROZEN?

WUT MAJORITY VOTE YOU SAY?
***** IM LEAVING IF YOU DONT CHANGE IT

BAWW CHANGE IT BAWW CHANGE IT BAWWW CHANGE IT

**** YOU ALL SCRUBS IM LEAVIN THE MINUS BACKROOM

Uhm wut wait

 

[Justin Wiles]

Oh come on.

Don't worry, I'm just pickin' -- PS2 is legit.

 

[Mic_128]

Last I checked, this is for PS2 classic. Get the Brawl- discussion drama out of here.

 

[swordgard]

I did not read the last few posts, but anyone who says physics changing or "Disrupting STANDARD (completely subjective, btw) gameplay" is a valid ban reason needs to be promptly kicked in the sack.

Amazing post, BPC.

Nova Scotia is giving PS2 a test run as a starter stage this Saturday, I expect good results.

PS2 FOR LIFE.

Edit: I'll be back to this thread sometime after I get moved into University to finish off some of these AWFUL arguments against this stage.

People don't seem to understand that sv/bf/fd is not "normal brawl", its "omg we want flat stages only brawl". Normal brawl actually includes the full stage list. The you remove whats broken. Not the other way around. If you start the other way around by adding stuff from nothing, then you can add any rules to balance the game because from the beginning you decided you are making your own version of the game, not trying to play the actual game you were provided with.

 

[-LzR-]

Seriously, you guys who whine are mentioning stuff like IC gets a 40 second advantage against like 3 characters twice per match at best.
The same applies to FD.
Also, please tell me a character who owns on all the transformations? No one? Correct.
The changing is what makes it so neutral. The advantage passes to both characters in turns during the match. It's a lot about how well you know the stage. So go and learn how to play in ice dammit.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

People don't seem to understand that sv/bf/fd is not "normal brawl", its "omg we want flat stages only brawl". Normal brawl actually includes the full stage list. The you remove whats broken. Not the other way around. If you start the other way around by adding stuff from nothing, then you can add any rules to balance the game because from the beginning you decided you are making your own version of the game, not trying to play the actual game you were provided with.

This post = too good

Seriously, you guys who whine are mentioning stuff like IC gets a 40 second advantage against like 3 characters twice per match at best.
The same applies to FD.
Also, please tell me a character who owns on all the transformations? No one? Correct.
The changing is what makes it so neutral. The advantage passes to both characters in turns during the match. It's a lot about how well you know the stage. So go and learn how to play in ice dammit.

Pretty much this. And what swordgard said, which is amazingly true.

 

[teluoborg]

You know BPC, the funny thing is that each and every argument held for PS2 also stand for ISP. And FFAs.

And the one thing you're not getting is that both aren't popular because most people/TOs don't like them.

I'm not saying that you're right or wrong, just that declaring that everybody's dumb and your tastes are the best makes you as ******** as the average "No items, MK only, Smashville" tourney***.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know BPC, the funny thing is that each and every argument held for PS2 also stand for ISP. And FFAs.

Explain? Maybe an example? Also ISP is completely legit; there's just one simple argument against it that wins every time-people don't like playing with items, so they turn them off. It is an in-game setting that you can modify to however you choose-it's like deciding between stock and time mode.

There is no setting in-game to "turn off" a stage; unless you plan on using random. The problem of stage selection will always exist in brawl and in every other game that has stages but no fair selection system (Soul Calibur is another example, although not quite as extreme).

And the one thing you're not getting is that both aren't popular because most people/TOs don't like them.

Terrible reason to ban something. Before you cry foul on items, we don't ban items. The game gives us the option to turn them off, and we do. It doesn't let us turn off any stages; removing stages from the counterpick pool is a real ban, effectively the same as banning a character.

I'm not saying that you're right or wrong, just that declaring that everybody's dumb and your tastes are the best makes you as ******** as the average "No items, MK only, Smashville" tourney***.

I never said anyone was dumb, and I am not stating that my tastes are correct. I am giving well-structured, legitimate arguments for why PS2 should be allowed in tournaments (and why it should be a starter, to boot), and you're responding with "zomg stop acting like you're always right". If I make a statement and then back it up very powerfully, then it's not fair to claim that I'm "acting like I'm right all the time". It's actually virtually unfair to say that I'm wrong unless you can argue against it.

 

[Tesh]

The game also gives you the option to NOT choose a stage. For any match you play, you can choose NOT to play any of the stages they come with the game. The same thing goes for characters.

The only difference here is that stages and characters are chosen for an entire match. So choosing "no items" for an entire match is the same as turning them off. Its the same effect as choosing "no metaknight" or "no pokemon stadium 2" for an entire match/set/tournament.

The game gives you alot of options to turn things on and off and it all comes down to how people want to play. Playing coin matches or on pokemon stadium might not be less competitive, but it might be too different for alot of people to agree with.