Pokemon Stadium 2: Full Analysis, Gameplay Implications, and a really fair stage

[teluoborg]

Explain? Maybe an example? Also ISP is completely legit; there's just one simple argument against it that wins every time-people don't like playing with items, so they turn them off.

Well check your main arguments and replace PS2 with ISP (mainly the ones about adaptation to something moderately random and fairness), I shouldn't have to elaborate on that. And yes, ISP is indeed legit, but unpopular.

Terrible reason to ban something. Before you cry foul on items, we don't ban items. The game gives us the option to turn them off, and we do. It doesn't let us turn off any stages; removing stages from the counterpick pool is a real ban, effectively the same as banning a character.

PS2 is in the CP list, what are you talking about ?
And lack of popularity is actually a very viable reason to ban something.

I never said anyone was dumb, and I am not stating that my tastes are correct. I am giving well-structured, legitimate arguments for why PS2 should be allowed in tournaments (and why it should be a starter, to boot), and you're responding with "zomg stop acting like you're always right". If I make a statement and then back it up very powerfully, then it's not fair to claim that I'm "acting like I'm right all the time". It's actually virtually unfair to say that I'm wrong unless you can argue against it.

"People say ice is a problem. It's not."
"People whine about transformations, but they don't last long enough to change the tide of a battle."
"People say the air transformation is gay. It's not an argument." (wtf at this one, seriously)
Those aren't arguments, they're personal opinions disguised so that they look like objective facts.
And your thread's full of stuff like that.

So of course I can't prove them wrong, like I can't prove that green is a better color than red. It makes no sense.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well check your main arguments and replace PS2 with ISP (mainly the ones about adaptation to something moderately random and fairness), I shouldn't have to elaborate on that. And yes, ISP is indeed legit, but unpopular.

And, as said, you can't effectively argue against ISP with appeals to the inherent unfairness of its randomness. You have one argument only, really-it's an in-game setting that you can turn on and off.

PS2 is in the CP list, what are you talking about ?

Apex didn't have it. German nationals don't have it. Pound 4 didn't have it. $10 says Pound 5 won't have it. Almost no EC tourneys have it. Mexico doesn't have it.

And lack of popularity is actually a very viable reason to ban something.

Bull****. It's a completely subjective criteria that you could extend to, quite literally, anything you wanted. PS2 isn't popular. Well neither is FD-almost nobody ever plays matches there if they play smart. Neither are the ice climbers-everyone I know hates playing against them. See where I'm going with this?

If you could potentially use a highly subjective criteria based solely on public opinion to ban anything, then it is setting a very bad and very dangerous precedent.

"People say ice is a problem. It's not because of X, Y, and Z."

Fix'd. And X, Y, and Z are legitimate; going against them is literally going against what the game dictates. The argument "it's not brawl any more" is often brought up; it's faulty because yes, it IS brawl, as shown by the fact that it is in the ****ing game.

"People whine about transformations, but they don't last long enough to change the tide of a battle."

Yep, and this is proven through tournament experience of almost every region who plays the stage. Shaya, help me out here.
If the transformation seriously changes the tide of battle, then you are playing your defense poorly. This is what the actual testing (not theory, testing) has proven.

"People say the air transformation is gay. It's not an argument." (wtf at this one, seriously)

Buddy, I think Olimar is gay. I think ICs are gay. I think snake is gay. LET'S BAN ALL OF THOSE BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY.

Subjective opinions as ban criteria = bad.

Those aren't arguments, they're personal opinions disguised so that they look like objective facts.

Wrong.

And your thread's full of stuff like that.

And wrong.

So of course I can't prove them wrong, like I can't prove that green is a better color than red. It makes no sense.

...Except I'm not arguing like that.

 

[ADHD]

This is one of the few banned stages on the EC I actually feel is balanced.

Nothing is random, or overly intrusive.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Complete agreement on PS2 with ADHD.

 

[Kel]

AZ can we keep him?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This is one of the few banned stages on the EC I actually feel is balanced.

Nothing is random, or overly intrusive.

Do you support it being legalized and/or turned into a starter?

 

[-LzR-]

I have tested this stage, none of the transformations have changed the tide of the matches since we play smart there.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have tested this stage, none of the transformations have changed the tide of the matches since we play smart there.

My experience. And, AFAIK, the experience of just about everyone who put in serious testing to this stage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

My experience. And, AFAIK, the experience of just about everyone who put in serious testing to this stage.

*nods*

It's easy to tell if your opponent has played there or not when you CP with the stage. If they start playing dump: they have never played on it seriously before. Enjoy your free advantage.

Seriously though, just play on the stage a few times in MMs and you'll see it's fine.

 

[Raziek]

Relevant Linkage: Legitimate games on PS2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3PgqzTBaE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbel7gLfJY8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVTP2z1Oz1Y

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Relevant Linkage: Legitimate games on PS2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3PgqzTBaE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbel7gLfJY8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVTP2z1Oz1Y

Thanks. This is going in the OP.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Okay, I'm going to be honest.
Usually, I don't give any respect to BPC. I feel like the majority of your posts are kind of scrubby, and only theorycraft.

However, I think you did a good job. This was a good read, and the way you presented your arguments made PS2 seem much more viable than anywhere else you've argued for it.
The only thing I disagree with is that it should be in place of FD on a 3-stage starter.
I think that if you're using a LIBERAL ruleset, at the most insane TO's discretion, it should be included on a 5-stage starter. I think 7-stage starter is probably the best place for it. Simply because it DOES have gameplay altering elements. Not game-breaking, mind you, but you have to alter your style to fit things like the ice and air transformations. Thus, 7-stage sounds pretty good.

Now, keep in mind that I main ICs. This kind of opened my eyes to at least looking at the newer stages in a different way, so even if I'll NEVER agree that Distant Planet should be legal, I'll definitely not rag so much on transforming or moving stages.
tl;dr?
BPC gains a level. +5 respect, +3 pwning '08 logic, -1 hater.

 

[Raziek]

3 starter should be SV, BF, YI, imo. Maybe LC instead of YI.

 

[TheSaintKai]

3 starter should be SV, BF, YI, imo. Maybe LC instead of YI.

Probably more fair than FD, because of chars like ICs and Diddy and Falco, buuuuut.

I won't complain. :DD -proceeds to grab you because there are no platforms to run to- <3

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I think it should be CP until G&W's uair is looked into.

The electric stage is annoying, but not worth banning the stage over.

 

[-LzR-]

Notice the word you used for the electric stage?

 

[Krystedez]

To be fair, about the whole "it's changing the game; it's no longer brawl". . . and the comparing of weird stages like PS2 to items . . .

You got to remember that the stage was there in the first place, and the changes it makes to the stage were intended to give that extra element of game play and competitive nature, without favoring one specific character. It's better than putting two walls together like Shadow Moses for infinite chain grabbing, it's pretty common sense that you can at least consider PS2 versus not being able to consider stages like Skyworld or Shadow Moses.

(although I would love to have Skyworld legal . . . it's pretty obvious it's not a fair enough stage)

 

[Sovereign]

The electric stage is awesome. Some pretty neat things can happen with certain characters. I honestly don't believe PS2 should've ever been banned, and it's definitely the evolution and imo, better form of PS1, which has the most ******** ledge in the game, because it's either under or over for horizontal recoveries, and nothing in between.

 

[swordgard]

Okay, I'm going to be honest.
Usually, I don't give any respect to BPC. I feel like the majority of your posts are kind of scrubby, and only theorycraft.

Hmmmmm. Lol?


Whoever thinks BPC is scrubby must be out of their mind, hes one of the few advocating for NOT being scrubby. Play the game that was made, not the game you make in your own mind. Thats the kind of attitude I have often seen him with, which is the exact opposite of the "conventionnal" defenition of a scrub.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Okay, I'm going to be honest.
Usually, I don't give any respect to BPC. I feel like the majority of your posts are kind of scrubby, and only theorycraft.

However, I think you did a good job. This was a good read, and the way you presented your arguments made PS2 seem much more viable than anywhere else you've argued for it.
The only thing I disagree with is that it should be in place of FD on a 3-stage starter.
I think that if you're using a LIBERAL ruleset, at the most insane TO's discretion, it should be included on a 5-stage starter. I think 7-stage starter is probably the best place for it. Simply because it DOES have gameplay altering elements. Not game-breaking, mind you, but you have to alter your style to fit things like the ice and air transformations. Thus, 7-stage sounds pretty good.

I suppose this makes sense. As long as you recognize that FD is a terrible starter stage by almost any criteria, and that the 3-starter list should be something like BF/SV/(PS1 or PS2 or YI or LC or something similar) and never BF/SV/FD, lol.

Now, keep in mind that I main ICs. This kind of opened my eyes to at least looking at the newer stages in a different way, so even if I'll NEVER agree that Distant Planet should be legal, I'll definitely not rag so much on transforming or moving stages.
tl;dr?
BPC gains a level. +5 respect, +3 pwning '08 logic, -1 hater.

Thanks.

To be fair, about the whole "it's changing the game; it's no longer brawl". . . and the comparing of weird stages like PS2 to items . . .

You got to remember that the stage was there in the first place, and the changes it makes to the stage were intended to give that extra element of game play and competitive nature, without favoring one specific character. It's better than putting two walls together like Shadow Moses for infinite chain grabbing, it's pretty common sense that you can at least consider PS2 versus not being able to consider stages like Skyworld or Shadow Moses.

(although I would love to have Skyworld legal . . . it's pretty obvious it's not a fair enough stage)

This guy kinda gets it.

Hmmmmm. Lol?


Whoever thinks BPC is scrubby must be out of their mind, hes one of the few advocating for NOT being scrubby. Play the game that was made, not the game you make in your own mind. Thats the kind of attitude I have often seen him with, which is the exact opposite of the "conventionnal" defenition of a scrub.

Hey swordgard have you seen my originalist ruleset proposal? It's a ruleset where you literally don't even have to ban IDC or Planking.
The only rules necessary are:
-One to deal with the in-game settings (gonna be in every ruleset and is perfectly legitimate)
-One to deal with how to select stages (AA's "strike the whole list method" is best here as you really don't have to ban any stage; raziek's proposed modification is probably a little more fair, but as far as originalism goes faulty-it's not a terrible rule, but it's absolutely necessary in some form)
-And probably one to deal with sudden death somehow (I think. Should be looked into more if this rule is truly necessary for competition).

Also, thank you for recognizing this. Noob? Sure, that's a fair thing to call me-I am a noob, I'm not very good at this game. But if you ever catch me with an attitude that's less than purely play-to-win (in case you're wondering how this is relevant, the definition of a scrub is someone who does not play to win), then kindly let me know so I may chastise myself for it (usually I use a red-hot cattle brander).

 

[lordhelmet]

This is one of the few things I'll agree with BPC on. PS2 is legit, not starter material (unless you're using more than a 5 neutral stage list).

*sticks with his idea that FD/BF/SV/YI/Lylat is the best starter list*

 

[-LzR-]

I personally don't like FD as a starter... It's not a good starter because it would only be good if Brinstar was also a starter, but people think that lava=/="neutral" Flat, long, campy, groundfavored=**** neutral

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

FD is a ridiculously polar stage that immensely favors a certain portion of the cast over another. It is the #1 ban in almost every one of Wario's, G&W's, MK's, and several others' matchups, and it is the #1 counterpick for a whole slew of characters. It's a terrible starter if you want "fair" stages in your starter list.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ice Morph: Degenerative gameplay and loss of traction inhibits out of shield punishments (They slide back). This gives Metaknight the ability to camp the ledge/safely land from aircamping much more effectively. Your solution in the OP? Wait it out.

Ground Morph: Gives two unapproachable situations (one on each side of the hill) in which the first person to break from the defensive position is at more of a disadvantage they are already in, giving no incentive to approach. Has to be waited out.

Thunder Morph: Same as above, but more extreme. Three completely unapproachable positions (center and both ledges) that force a wait out. (Starting to see a pattern?)

Air morph: Aerial based characters can stall the entire duration of this. Not camp, not run away, but stall. Characters with multiple jumps (such as Metaknight, Kirby), can use their jumps to be in the upper corners of the screen in a position that it is literally impossible for any character except ones that also have multiple jumps to reach. Kirby can even spam his hammer in the air for such an incredibly low falling speed that you can camp almost the entirety of the morph with one jump without being in a position to be reasonably punished at all (I've done this irl in tourney and its very very gay). Metaknight can use his jumps to stay out of harms way as well. Although his horizontal movement speed is very low, his glide, tornado, and side b all allow him to land in any spot on the stage (tornado for midway/same side, glide for opposite side, side b for ledge) without being punished by the opponent. But it's ok, because you can just wait it out until the morph's completed.

That makes all 4 of the morphs on PS2 morphs that must be waited out, essentially halving the amount of playable time in a match. Compare this to PS1, where only 2 of the 4 morphs (fire and ground) force a camp out.
With only 4 minutes of actual gameplay in a match, PS2 should not be legal.

This stage is very very easy to abuse and despite what you'd think it ends up punishing the approacher.
If you are camping on the edge your position is fortified because the only way to punish most edge campers is to shield/power shield their attack then quickly punish them or grab the edge yourself. This cannot be done with the ice, as even if you power shield, you still slide back, and that backwards momentum then makes it harder for you to edgehug.

If you are the one in shield and the opponent is not camping the edge you can still defend perfectly fine, because you can use the momentum to shield something and hope that their attack doesnt counteract the momentum you got, or you can spotdodge and attack out of it because you slid forward. As cool as it is to fight on ice, it's incredibly abusable on the edge and makes planking even more difficult to deal with. We all want that RITE?

To address your future counterpoint of it only being one morph of the stage that needs to be ran out: It is not. All of the morphs encourage passive behavior and significantly punishes anyone trying to approach or move to the point where on these morphs that you CANNOT make a comeback/reasonable approach unless it is on the basic morph.

Just throwing these in here. Made by falln on AiB. Couldn't think of a good way to dismiss the theorycraft effectively.

 

[Raziek]

There's a pretty simple way to dismiss most of it, which I talked about with you.

First of all, everything he said about Ice-Morph is pretty much false, and MK is a problem on the ledge regardless. Loss of traction is different, not degenerate.

Ground morph is LOL. First off, the right side is only a bad idea to approach if your opponent is Dedede. The left side actually has ADDITIONAL options, because you can fastfall into a sliding shield as a means of approach. Neither of these are "unapproachable" in the slightest, the difficulty is no worse than trying to approach someone camping under a platform on BF.

Thunder is also lol. The center has the side platform for approach, though admittedly you may often end up camping this one out. The ledges being unbeatable again, probably only applies to MK.

Wind is the only legitimate complaint.

ALSO RATHER IMPORTANT, is the fact that both players can equally take advantage of these positions simply by fighting for the position as the stage transitions. Especially since you're given plenty of forewarning in the background.

Also worth mentioning: Why does being more prone to timeouts make this a bad stage? If anything, it lends it some more counterpick-esque qualities, but it's definitely not a ban reason. Timeouts are a completely legitimate win condition, and banning a stage because they encourage them is ignorant, biased, and wrong. Just because it's "gay" or lame, doesn't mean it makes it banworthy.

 

[-LzR-]

This stage should be banned because it has ledges. MK can just simply plank the hell outta you.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This stage should be banned because it has ledges. MK can just simply plank the hell outta you.

A funny thing is that I was about to make that remark when it comes to time-outs!

Stages with no ledges ever: Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Summit, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2, Shadow Moses Island, Onett

Stages that only have temporary ledges: Delfino Plaza, Rumble Falls, Bridge of Eldin, Halberd*, Port Town Aero Dive, Castle Siege, Skyworld**, Green Hill Zone**, Rainbow Cruise, Big Blue, Brinstar***

*Stage has no ledges only during initial segment and then has ledges for the remainder of play
**Ledges on stage change status depending on player action.
***Stage has permanent ledges, but stage hazards occasionally make all ledges hazardous to use simultaneously.

I smell the basis for a new stage list: the stage list against MK based time outs.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yes, let's make the stagelist more anti-MK than before.

 

[ADHD]

Do you support it being legalized and/or turned into a starter?

Legalized, yes. It still has properties of a counterpick, though. IC's with the ice, the wind, lucario's weird ledge trick over the rotating tracks. Maybe. I still think everything hasn't been found on this stage. It's not really been explored, and I wouldn't be surprised if metaknight could turn into a giant tornado here with all the glitches supremely in his favor nowadays.

Hmmmmm. Lol?


Whoever thinks BPC is scrubby must be out of their mind, hes one of the few advocating for NOT being scrubby. Play the game that was made, not the game you make in your own mind. Thats the kind of attitude I have often seen him with, which is the exact opposite of the "conventionnal" defenition of a scrub.

The game was intended to be played however we wanted to, as there are different modes of play and on and off switches for basically everything. YOUR VERSION IS NOT THE PUREST AS YOU THINK.

 

[Big O]

A funny thing is that I was about to make that remark when it comes to time-outs!

Stages with no ledges ever: Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Summit, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2, Shadow Moses Island, Onett

Stages that only have temporary ledges: Delfino Plaza, Rumble Falls, Bridge of Eldin, Halberd*, Port Town Aero Dive, Castle Siege, Skyworld**, Green Hill Zone**, Rainbow Cruise, Big Blue, Brinstar***

*Stage has no ledges only during initial segment and then has ledges for the remainder of play
**Ledges on stage change status depending on player action.
***Stage has permanent ledges, but stage hazards occasionally make all ledges hazardous to use simultaneously.

I smell the basis for a new stage list: the stage list against MK based time outs.

I'm pretty sure Onett has a ledge on the left house.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm pretty sure Onett has a ledge on the left house.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't but did in Melee. That ledge was really annoying; I'm glad they removed it for Brawl.

 

[-LzR-]

I am pretty sure there is a ledge.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

There IS a ledge. That doesn't really change his point, however.

Also, this thread is really, really awesome. I wasn't gonna post originally, but I supposed it wouldn't have hurt to let you know you did a sexy job arguing for a commonly misunderstood stage. I appreciate this kind of thread, is what I wanted to say.

Good job, BPC. I can't wait for your next thread like this : )

 

[A2ZOMG]

Relevant Linkage: Legitimate games on PS2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3PgqzTBaE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbel7gLfJY8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVTP2z1Oz1Y

FFFFFFFF Great matches man. After watching those I can't see how this stage is unbalanced under good players.

PS2 is a great stage. =)

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Great writeup, BPC.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'd like to have it one step at one time.
Some people barely like PS2 as a CP, you can't expect them to have it as a starter in a single post.

Is a really, really good thread anyways.

 

[Yikarur]

oh hi.
BPC said I should post it here.

I discovered: on the ground stage Yoshi can downB into the rock and is untouchable, he can throw eggs out of it and attack out of it and can walk out and it as long as he's with few pixels inside he can get in again. (more limited to the right side)
You can do this by rolling into the above ledge and downB twice or by downBing in the absolute exact position into it. (first one is easier, second one is kinda random but in an actual match faster to perform)

 

[-LzR-]

Well that's nice, post a video.

 

[Arcade]

oh hi.
BPC said I should post it here.

I discovered: on the ground stage Yoshi can downB into the rock and is untouchable, he can throw eggs out of it and attack out of it and can walk out and it as long as he's with few pixels inside he can get in again. (more limited to the right side)
You can do this by rolling into the above ledge and downB twice or by downBing in the absolute exact position into it. (first one is easier, second one is kinda random but in an actual match faster to perform)

Well that's nice, post a video.

Here you go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpqFz5VHJSw

I couldn't hit the sweet spot with your ledge strategy, which ledge were you referring to?

 

[Ghostbone]

hmm

Makes me wonder if other characters can do the same thing.