Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[autobzooty]

You know, now that I think about it, I have no clue what the original argument in this thread was supposed to be about.

 

[flyinfilipino]

It was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, and if the original post hadn't had such a negative vibe about it, it probably wouldn't have sparked a huge debate.

 

[autobzooty]

Yeah probably, because I don't really see any points in the original post worth arguing, minus the fact that they were made in a rather aggressive way.

It's all just a matter of what you prefer in the end...

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It really is all a lose/lose situation. If the original statement is put nicely and padded with kind words, it is viewed as a weak statement, and opponents walk all over it. If the original statement is put direct and bluntly (pretty much how it is), it is viewed as elitist and overbearing, so everyone becomes defensive.

Very few people on these forums focus on the actual content rather than react to emotional sting.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You know, now that I think about it, I have no clue what the original argument in this thread was supposed to be about.

There was no arguement, the first post stated simple truths, put them bluntly so everyone would understand, and then a bunch of casuals decided that it was wrong and attacked it.

 

[MookieRah]

Very few people on these forums focus on the actual content rather than react to emotional sting.

Yeah this is true. It's to the point that their emotions completely take over too. They will read something thinking you have it out for them and take things completely and totally out of context and get upset over it. One time I started a paragraph with "From my vantage point" which obviously means from my perspective and what not, but some guy read it as me being really high up looking down on him. It's kinda hard to try and communicate to someone who gets so riled up that he can't even read something without assuming I'm looking down on them or think they are ********.

 

[flyinfilipino]

It's kinda hard to try and communicate to someone who gets so riled up that he can't even read something without assuming I'm looking down on them or think they are ********.

It'd probably be easier if there weren't actually people that would be very willing to not read your posts at all and instead contribute with "ur a ******** scrub gg lol".

 

[The Hypnotist]

Yeah probably, because I don't really see any points in the original post worth arguing, minus the fact that they were made in a rather aggressive way.

It's all just a matter of what you prefer in the end...

Point out some arguements in the OP that are too "agresssive" and tell me how you would rephrase them.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yeah this is true. It's to the point that their emotions completely take over too. They will read something thinking you have it out for them and take things completely and totally out of context and get upset over it. One time I started a paragraph with "From my vantage point" which obviously means from my perspective and what not, but some guy read it as me being really high up looking down on him. It's kinda hard to try and communicate to someone who gets so riled up that he can't even read something without assuming I'm looking down on them or think they are ********.

I don't like your red name, so you must be lying.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Buzz was on the podcast, and he said the game wasn't perfect... and he wavedashes... so I don't like him!

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Buzz was on the podcast, and he said the game wasn't perfect... and he wavedashes... so I don't like him!

I would hate you, but you're a hypnotist, so I dare not provoke you.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I haven't beaten any 'decent' players, so I must be a scrub, and my posts are too ******** to read!

 

[The Hypnotist]

Let's not start another fad. Oh, I decided to make a video of me reading the OP. It's kinda cool, check it out guys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU

 

[MookieRah]

I haven't beaten any 'decent' players, so I must be a scrub, and my posts are too ******** to read!

You do know that we only ask that of people who make claims that they "beat people who wave dash" or something equally moronic right? We don't bring that up unless they bring it upon themselves to be an ignorantly arrogant.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I haven't beaten any 'decent' players, so I must be a scrub, and my posts are too ******** to read!

Im a Kirby main, and my post count is low, so I must be a scrub.

 

[flyinfilipino]

You do know that we only ask that of people who make claims that they "beat people who wave dash" or something equally moronic right? We don't bring that up unless they bring it upon themselves to be an ignorantly arrogant.

I was only referring to a select few posters there.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Im a Kirby main, and my post count is low, so I must be a scrub.

post count = IQ

 

[Red Exodus]

I hate to see people say "I beat my friends who use ATs so ATs must not be that good after all! I could probably beat [insert pro here] if I wanted to".

Newflash: Either your friends suck at using them or you've mastered the basics while they haven't.

If you ask me ATs only work if you're good at the game anyway. There's no point WDing if you're going to WD into bowser Fsmashes. I've played the crap out of casual melee so I know certain things like hitbox size and lag time of some moves, which is a great help when playing any opponent. When you don't know that stuff you start off at a disadvantage, regardless of your character, your opponent's character or the stage you're on.

 

[autobzooty]

The crux of this debate is that some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively. That's it. No one is asking the inverse, demanding that casual gamers play by their arbitrary set of rules.

Don't speak in absolutes; it riles people up.

Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game"

Don't invalidate opinions just because you don't understand them. You use the word "abstract" as though if it's too complicated then it doesn't matter. Also, putting the word "arguments" in quotes is a cheap shot.

Everyone and their dog thinks they are great at Smash, some are, but most suck. People seem to get the idea that just because they've unlocked all the stages and characters, that they are true masters of the game. Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing.

Again, speaking in absolutes. Then you go on to say that casual players are poor sports, and that they just get "angry and bitter" because they lost to a pro.

So next time you get beaten by an advanced player ask for some advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches."

Trying to paint a picture that all casual players are whiny *****es.

Furthermore, it's not even that hard to learn them. [Advanced Techniques]

Maybe I'm nit-picking, but this seems irrelevant and is just another chance to make someone upset.

...they don't want to put forth the effort to become better themselves. That's it. The can claim otherwise all day, but that's it.

You basically just said right there that no matter what a casual player says, it doesn't matter because they are lying. That makes people angry.










I'm not trying to nit-pick the post. There's nothing wrong with writing aggressively and speaking in extremes, in fact it's the best way to get a conversation started, but it also has a good chance of flying out of control and getting people angry to the point where no one is listening and everyone is yelling.

But that's not to say I haven't enjoyed the discussion in this thread so far, but I was having much more fun when it was tame than when people were jumping down my throat for my ideas.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Don't speak in absolutes; it riles people up.

Meh, it's true.

Don't invalidate opinions just because you don't understand them. You use the word "abstract" as though if it's too complicated then it doesn't matter. Also, putting the word "arguments" in quotes is a cheap shot.

I'm not invalidating an opinion, it just isn't logical. How the hell was the game suppose to be played? Seriously, what does that mean?

Again, speaking in absolutes. Then you go on to say that casual players are poor sports, and that they just get "angry and bitter" because they lost to a pro.

It's saying some casuals get angry and bitter because they realize that they are not good when they lose to a great player but they say they cheat. Which is true.


Trying to paint a picture that all casual players are whiny *****es.

You mean that SOME casuals whine because they lose, and they say we "cheat" and use "glitches".


Maybe I'm nit-picking, but this seems irrelevant and is just another chance to make someone upset.

A little nitpicky but I understand where you're going. It just bugs us that some casuals use as a fall back arguement... "Sorry we're not gods at the games, we have lives" Like the casuals who think wavedashing is almighty (which it's not) could learn how to do it if they just spent 40 mins in training mode. Seriously, less than an hour.


You basically just said right there that no matter what a casual player says, it doesn't matter because they are lying. That makes people angry.

No, it's saying tha they are mistaken thinking they are good. The need to watch some professional matches like I told you to. It kinda pisses me off when someone thinks they are amazing but doesn't know what teching is. Or thinks that Roy is better than Marth.



I'm not trying to nit-pick the post. There's nothing wrong with writing aggressively and speaking in extremes, in fact it's the best way to get a conversation started, but it also has a good chance of flying out of control and getting people angry to the point where no one is listening and everyone is yelling.

But that's not to say I haven't enjoyed the discussion in this thread so far, but I was having much more fun when it was tame than when people were jumping down my throat for my ideas.

Is there anything in the orginal post (now that I have clarified a few things for you) that is not true?

You didn't read the OP, because FTR, I didn't write that. But anyways, my responses are in blue. And once again, I like mature debates like this, and honestly, I'm looking forward to playing you in a few months. You have wifi right?

 

[autobzooty]

You didn't read the OP, because FTR, I didn't write that. But anyways, my responses are in blue. And once again, I like mature debates like this, and honestly, I'm looking forward to playing you in a few months. You have wifi right?

I saw you didn't write it, but you did say:

EVERYTHING IN THE ORIGINAL POST IS TRUE!

Although out of context I'm not sure how serious you were.

Meh, it's true.

No, it's not, I'm the living example.

I'm not invalidating an opinion, it just isn't logical. How the hell was the game suppose to be played? Seriously, what does that mean?

It's not illogical, you just don't understand. Certain things are more important to some players than others. I'll use the term "The Spirit Of The Game" again. If you don't understand what exactly that means, then it's probably not very important to you in the scheme of things and that's why you don't have an issue with wavedashing.

It's saying some casuals get angry and bitter because they realize that they are not good when they lose to a great player but they say they cheat. Which is true.

It'd be better to make it more of a point that you only think SOME casuals do that. In your post you said "everyone and their dog" and went on to use words like "they." Not everyone just assumes that the writer means SOME people.

A little nitpicky but I understand where you're going. It just bugs us that some casuals use as a fall back arguement... "Sorry we're not gods at the games, we have lives" Like the casuals who think wavedashing is almighty (which it's not) could learn how to do it if they just spent 40 mins in training mode. Seriously, less than an hour.

Yeah I agree, it doesn't take long to learn, but it IS difficult to master. Wavedashing isn't hard, applying it in a match IS. And that's speaking from experience.

No, it's saying tha they are mistaken thinking they are good. The need to watch some professional matches like I told you to. It kinda pisses me off when someone thinks they are amazing but doesn't know what teching is. Or thinks that Roy is better than Marth.

When the writer said "they can claim otherwise all day, but that's it," it sounds like he's flat out saying there is no argument for this, don't even try. If you try you're a liar.

I get annoyed by people that think they are awesome and are awful in actuality, but I don't see them as a problem that needs to be solved. These people have always been around and always will be around. But as people who know better, we just have to cope by making them the butt of our jokes on smashboards.com.









I'm looking forward to fighting you, too, and thanks for keeping it civil up there. :}

I've got wifi. Maybe you can teach me a thing or two when Brawl launches.

 

[NES n00b]

It's not illogical, you just don't understand. Certain things are more important to some players than others. I'll use the term "The Spirit Of The Game" again. If you don't understand what exactly that means, then it's probably not very important to you in the scheme of things and that's why you don't have an issue with wavedashing.

I think the spirit of the game is playing Time Mode. Prove me wrong.

You see how that arguement is illogical? The "spirit of the game" is different for everybody and therefore is arbitrary and abstract. You can't use subjective things like that in a debate. Or we might as well just say "I don't like it" in arguements.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I saw you didn't write it, but you did say:



Although out of context I'm not sure how serious you were.



No, it's not, I'm the living example.

The MAIN part of the debate is what the OP is about. Seriously, most casuals haven't read this thread, and they still think we just play on Final Destination. You are an exception.


It's not illogical, you just don't understand. Certain things are more important to some players than others. I'll use the term "The Spirit Of The Game" again. If you don't understand what exactly that means, then it's probably not very important to you in the scheme of things and that's why you don't have an issue with wavedashing.

They state the "spirit of the game" bull**** as a fact, not an opinion.

It'd be better to make it more of a point that you only think SOME casuals do that. In your post you said "everyone and their dog" and went on to use words like "they." Not everyone just assumes that the writer means SOME people.

There's a bit of hyperbole in the essay, and for sure. Not all casuals are evil, hahaha. But most of them are mistaken about how we play.

Yeah I agree, it doesn't take long to learn, but it IS difficult to master. Wavedashing isn't hard, applying it in a match IS. And that's speaking from experience.

Applying wavedashing in a match isn't hard. It takes a bit of practice, a few weeks maybe. Waveshinning and pillaring in matches is a lot harder.

When the writer said "they can claim otherwise all day, but that's it," it sounds like he's flat out saying there is no argument for this, don't even try. If you try you're a liar.

Well... he is right.

I get annoyed by people that think they are awesome and are awful in actuality, but I don't see them as a problem that needs to be solved. These people have always been around and always will be around. But as people who know better, we just have to cope by making them the butt of our jokes on smashboards.com.

Agreed.








I'm looking forward to fighting you, too, and thanks for keeping it civil up there. :}

I've got wifi. Maybe you can teach me a thing or two when Brawl launches.

Seriously, I think you should try advanced play out. Watch some matches, ge good at the game. Try tourney rules, what do you have to lose. If you hate it, AFTER you get good. Thenplay your way. Just remeber we all used to play like you, and we like our way better. But we respect your way, and sometimes play like you do.

 

[G-X]

BTW, this isn't my epic rant, what is posted in blue after the rant will be all mine though. I know there's been a lot of this, but I honestly think that all of my fellow smashers need to read this. Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important.

EVERYONE, PARTICULARLY CASUALS PLEASE READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING. DON'T EVEN BOTHER RESPOND IF YOU DON'T READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!

Quote:
The crux of this debate is that some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively. That's it. No one is asking the inverse, demanding that casual gamers play by their arbitrary set of rules. It is simply the anti-competitive crowd going out of their way to spite those who are better than them. Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?

For the misinformed, which includes most of the anti-competitive crowd, here are the standardized rules for Super Smash Bros. tournament play:
-4 Stock, 8 Minutes, Team Damage, No Items
-Both players choose one stage to ban for the set
-Both players pick characters at same time and go randomly to one of the six "neutral" stages.
-The loser determines the next stage to go to, from almost all of them. The loser also picks character second.
-Best out of three wins

Obviously, we have to talk about items. Items add luck to the game, period. If a good item appears next to you, you very well could instantly win. If a bomb or exploding container appears in front of your attack, you very well could instantly lose. Players don't like having their skill nullified by luck in a competition. Players enter tournaments to pit their skill against their opponent's, not to gamble. Items benefit top-tier characters more, period. It only widens the gap between characters. Most the high tier characters are fast and/or very aerial, giving them a massive advantage in obtaining items on the stage. Some people say that items were meant to balance the game, claiming that characters like Mewtwo and Pikachu were designed as item gods, and their low tier positions are due to items being banned. This is bull****. If an item spawns directly between Pikachu and Shiek, who will get to it first? Fox and Falco, two of the top characters, even have their reflectors to give them the upper hand even when their opponent has the items! Are you saying they need MORE advantages?

If you want to play competitively with items, go ahead. Make your own tournament. Tournaments are organized by players, not people who own stores. Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. Tourneys do not play with items because the people attending them don't want to, not because some evil tourney director is making them.

Next stages. Hyrule Temple sucks, ok? Let's get that out of the way first. The bottom zone makes it almost pure luck as to who kills who first, giving certain characters huge advantages and leading to REALLY long matches. If you want to organize a Hyrule Temple tourney, go ahead, no one will show up. The only other stages that are banned are ridiculous ones like Super Flat Zone that no one ever likes anyway.

Now then... The six "neutral stages." People act like tournaments only play on Final Destination, which is ridiculous, since it's only one of the six default stages even, and it's typically banned by a player if their opponent has a good Falco. Some tournaments even play with something called "Dave's stupid rule", which states that no stage can be played twice in a set of matches. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, and Dream Land all receive just as much play as Final Destination, if not more. And those are only the initial stages! The other counter-pick stages just aren't included on Random so you don't get some ridiculous random match-up like fighting Peach or Jigglypuff on Mute City.

So why are there so many people who think tournaments are the scourge of Smash? It's simple really. Every fighting game suffers from this to some degree, but it has hit the Smash community particularly hard due to its "easy to learn, impossible to master" nature: Everyone and their dog thinks they are great at Smash, some are, but most suck. People seem to get the idea that just because they've unlocked all the stages and characters, that they are true masters of the game. Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing.

So next time you get beaten by an advanced player ask for some advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches (PROTIP: they're not glitches). The game is supposed to be played on Hyrule Temple with full items." It's not like advanced players are in some secret club, and are determined to keep these techniques hidden from you just to maintain an advantage. With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you. Furthermore, it's not even that hard to learn them. In only a couple hours you can learn to wave dash, a couple more and you can learn to L-cancel. From there it's just a matter of practice until you can incorporate them into your game.

So what do casual players have to complain about? Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game, and they don't want to put forth the effort to become better themselves. That's it. The can claim otherwise all day, but that's it.


Also. just some statements by myself that everyone should read...

The term newbs is not negative, it just simply means a novice player. Do some research on wavedashing and don't complain about it if you don't even know what it is. Don't expect items to be in tournaments in Brawl, it's very unlikley. Like most players I am willing to play anyone, and teach them to play with advanced techniques, they aren't secrets. Don't expect that just because wavedashing isn't in Brawl there will not be a gap between competitive and casual players. This should be the last thread about this argument.

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's responses and again, please do not even attempt to respond if you don't read the thread, and mods I ask you with my heart, please don't close this thread.

NO POSTING ANOTHER WAVEDASHING ARGUEMENT!

Thanks. Why the **** did you post this in the Brawl section?

 

[Red Exodus]

Because people use that use melee understand this already and mostly people in the Brawl section need to hear this because this mindset is associated with Brawl.

 

[Sliq]

Why do you bother?

Why do you care?



You really shouldn't, and yet you do.





This thread is becoming ********. I read somewhere about the "Spirit of the Game." WTF this isn't a Disney movie its a ****ing video game.

Playing for honor in a video game is probably the most ******** thing I've ever heard of. Its a ****ing video game. Its not like we're smacking woman and throwing dirt in people's eyes here. Jesus Christ.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Sliq is so funny!

 

[Red Exodus]

Playing for honor in a video game is probably the most ******** thing I've ever heard of. Its a ****ing video game. Its not like we're smacking woman and throwing dirt in people's eyes here. Jesus Christ.

Actually that's why people hate wavedashing, all those clouds of dust *shiver*

 

[choknater]

yes he is, congrats on 2,000 posts sliq.

 

[slikvik]

yay sliq 2000 posts. all your spam has paid off. also lol at "Spirit of the game"

 

[Xpressions X]

.............. wow just wow

 

[autobzooty]

Seriously, I think you should try advanced play out. Watch some matches, ge good at the game. Try tourney rules, what do you have to lose. If you hate it, AFTER you get good. Thenplay your way. Just remeber we all used to play like you, and we like our way better. But we respect your way, and sometimes play like you do.

I've been practicing shffl with mario pretty much exclusively for the past few days, and for the most part i play with tourney rules anyways, i just leave it on infinite time so i can just unpause and have a match going.

i am getting pretty good at shffling though, and i'd say that's an advanced technique, no?

 

[The Hypnotist]

Very important, keep up the good work. Watch a lot of Eggz videos if you want to stick with Mario.

 

[autobzooty]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qn16NNxiJF8

Very impressive. Even putting wavedashing aside for a moment, I learned a lot, even just from this one video.

shuffling the b-air is gonna be hard to learn. i can barely shuffle the n-air right now. ._.;;

also the mario tornado is a good way to stall for time on edgehoggers. hadn't thought of that. although that won't be any help to me in brawl...i'll go check out some more.

 

[slikvik]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qn16NNxiJF8

Very impressive. Even putting wavedashing aside for a moment, I learned a lot, even just from this one video.

shuffling the b-air is gonna be hard to learn. i can barely shuffle the n-air right now. ._.;;

also the mario tornado is a good way to stall for time on edgehoggers. hadn't thought of that. although that won't be any help to me in brawl...i'll go check out some more.

use the C-stick for shffling bairs. other marios you could look at are green mario and boss

 

[The Hypnotist]

And...

THE CAPE!

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Less than an hour until the almighty Xmas update... Maybe everyone can get along. ^_^

 

[The Hypnotist]

Yeah, btw, I'm listening to you on the podcast man, your saying great stuff man. Really, good stuff. Buzz, do you have any videos on youtube that I can see?

 

[MookieRah]

Less than an hour until the almighty Xmas update...

I'm not expecting anything myself.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Less than an hour until the almighty Xmas update... Maybe everyone can get along. ^_^

On Smashboards? NEVER!