please desticky and replace with new thread. link to new thread in OP if needed

[shrinkray21]

With the entire argument for charizard gimping olly with flamethrowing...you do know that Olly's SAF frames last the entire duration of flamethrower...so unless you are really sneaky with it...its not a godsend...

 

[Retro Gaming]

Doesn't the fire deflect the Pikmin from the edge? I'll test it a little later, but unless there's a red one at the tip, I think it just cancels out the Up-B. I don't mean for attacking him while ledged.

 

[Pentaoku]

Ivysaur doesn't hold an advantage to Lucario. One of Lucario's strongest traits is dodging, and with Ivysaur's slow, predictable KO moves I think this is an error.

Furthermore, in the air, Lucario can outrange Ivysaur, save the back air. Lucario is also much swifter in the air since his attacks are executed rather quickly.

Razor Leaf doesn't really help you a lot since if you start spamming razor leafs, a Lucario can spam baby aura spheres and still out-gun you.

Furthermore, Ivysaur's air game is extremely predictable. Jumping at opponents is often a sign you are either going to forward air or nair set up for bullet seed. Both of these are very easy to avoid once they even see Ivysaur jump. Up air is also easy to see coming since it's the only attack that really works while you're under someone (unless forward air can reach that high).

Also the issue of recovery screws Ivy over due to Lucario's great edge guarding game.

However, in Ivysaur's favor, up smash punishes poorly timed down airs, and up air is very fast, and may beat a down air. Ivysaur's up air also kills in an important area-vertically. Lucario is very bad at resisting vertical motion (but he is good at resisting horizontal motion).

 

[Retro Gaming]

Ivy shouldn't be aproaching aerialy, anyway. If he does, Nair is horrible considering it's amazingly easy to shield grab, but the spacing provided by auto-canceled Fair is not that bad as an aproach option.

I'm not sure how it fares versus Lucario's small aura sphere, but Ivy's ftilt is capable of canceling quite a fair share of projectiles, and makes it so he can aproach certain characters (I'm thinking of the Links, Olimar, and Dedede right now). If he can, then Lucario's spam means nothing. Ftilt is a great aproach option all around, since he moves forward for the duration of the attack and then returns to his original position.

Ivy's Fair has quite a bit of KO potential, and is capable of replacing his slow kill moves. Fsmash is a moderate speed move anyway, it just has quite a bit of ending lag. But versus Lucario, I can see it being difficult to execute. This he may be held at a disadvantage.

I haven't played any Lucario's worth noting, but I tried to answer to the things you said. I wont add anything from a lacking personal experience.

 

[XienZo]

Edit: oops, wrong button, srry

 

[chubas]

Ivy shouldn't be approaching aerialy, anyway. If he does, Nair is horrible considering it's amazingly easy to shield grab, but the spacing provided by auto-canceled Fair is not that bad as an approach option.

In my opinion, Nair is not a so bad approaching since the attack lasts long enough to short hop into it and measure. If the first hit connects, let it attack (I use to bullet seed after it, works on heavy characters). If not, just DI away while you are still hitting. I don't master this technique, but I practice it and seems rather useful to me.
Anyways, I tend to play my Ivy aggressively, something that has not have very good results. Yeah, Ivy is not for approaching, but you cannot play effectively without approaching some of the times. Specially with those spam/camp characters

 

[Kemious]

Lucario is to Floaty a character making him the perfect target for VIne whip. I played against a good one and he was just another target for Vinewhips SS. Razor Leaf is a tad bit faster than a baby Sphere meaning Ivy has the advantage there. Ivys smashes excute much faster than any of Lucarios and Save Usmash . Bullet seed also seriously messes with lucario.

Also while Attacking aerially isnt Ivys bread and butter he can do it effectivelly Nair if short hopped can be canceled into Utilt making it much less predicable and much more varied.

 

[infernovia]

Why isn't olimar changed yet?

 

[Steeler]

because i hadn't gotten around to it

olimar edited and...that's basically it. nice lucario discussion going on right now though.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Everytime I used Nair as an aproach, I got shield grabbed. That's why I'm sticking with Fair on this. Nair is more for a hit after Utilt if it isn't exactly centered for Bullet Seed.

 

[MysticKenji]

I played against a good one and he was just another target for Vinewhips SS.

Vine Whip is too slow.
Airdodge.

Razor Leaf is a tad bit faster than a baby Sphere...

and also has twice the lag.
AS wins.

 

[chubas]

Vine Whip is too slow.
Airdodge.

Ground Vine Whip > Air Vine Whip
When in ground, is way quicker, and more effective.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I doubt at this point that anyone will expect you to pull it out, either.You've got surprise, which makes it easier for your opponent to mess up.

 

[Pentaoku]

I think you are severely overestimating Ivysaur's speed here. Vinewhip doesn't have the range of Pimin chain, so it's not even as threatening, and it's not THAT fast. It also leaves you open for an easy down air before you can retaliate. A smart Lucario player knows about what techniques Ivysaur has, and vine whip isn't hard to be ready for.

Forward smash, while it is pulled off at a "moderate" speed it terrible for trying to hit without prediction. It's just not THAT fast. Especially on a character like Lucario who has exceptional dodging ability.

Forward tilt is a bit annoying, but it doesn't rack up damage insanely fast, and it's not really threatening for KOs. Backwards DI + Shielding saves you from most follow ups except for grabs as well.

Down tilt is eh. Most people roll or spot dodge on reaction to any attack they feel may be coming, and this just leaves Ivysaur open for punishment.

Downsmash seems pretty good actually, since it's pretty fast and it has decent range. However it's not very good at dealing damage or knockback.

Against Lucario's attacks, the best Ivysaur can do to punish a whiffed forward smash is hope there is enough time to run in for a grab, and I'm not sure there is enough time for that. Forward smash has very nice range as well.

Lucario's forward tilt outranges Ivysaur's, and it is also very quick.

Up tilt is pretty mean as well. Ivysaur is about medium weight or so, so up tilt can juggle Ivy for a bit, then lead to combos. In the air, the only defensive options Ivysaur has is pretty much to DI away or hope the Lucario player messes up a combo.

Furthermore, razor leaf spam is bad against Lucario not only for Aura Sphere, but because it lets Lucario in close without much effort. If an Ivysaur player tries to keep Lucario at bay, he can double team the razor leaf and instead of sliding away from Ivysaur, he can slide toward's Ivysaur, closing the space, and this actually can lead to combos.

And again, Ivysaur's recovery gets owned by Lucario's edgeguarding game.

 

[Kemious]

Okay they way I see it is that the Lucario that you just brought up has some sort of Psychic powers. Almost every attack is dodged. Lucario does have decent dodging abilities but it not all that great truth be told. In addition these Lucarios are gonna end up rolling right into you setting themselves up for Bullet seed.

On top of that Ivysaur is actually a light wait in terms of weight so the up tilt juggling doesnt work so well. Admittedly Forward tilt does have range over Ivy but I doubt that forward tilts are gonna end up killing Ivysaur anyway.

Vine whip is the single hardest move to actually predict off someone who your playing against the first time. Most PT players only use Vine whip to get back to the stage. Pokemon trainers know Ivysaur has it and still get surprised when someone pulls it out.

Which brings me back to edgeguarding . Ivysaur can easily destroy Lucarios edgeguarding game with well planed Razor leafs and Fairs. On both returning to the edge Ivy has Lucario out flanked due to the intail start up time of extreme speed which vine whip has a higher priorty over.

Lucarios smashes are amongst the slower in the game meaning Ivysaur can out smash him if it ever came to that

 

[Pablicio]

I not going into much depth here, but I think Charizard is good against Olimar. He burn all save one of his Pikmin, giving him a headache. He may not actually be a "counter" but fares much better than the other too.

This is a great chart, and lol how PT's Pokemon seem to follow the "Pokemon mathcup."

 

[Retro Gaming]

Charizard does highly inappropriate things to Olimar once he gets off the stage. Pikmin chain gives barley any vertical distance, and it is very easy to rack up high percents of damage with Flamethrower before allowing them to reach the edge. However, Olimar is a tyranical slave driver once he gets back. It's really Neutral, in my opinion.

As far as the Lucario goes, I'm not speaking again until I have personal experience. But something makes me feel that Lucario is being glorified too much.

 

[127crazie]

Excellent work. If i could suggest something you should allow for a bigger range for the matchup chart key. Simply because the spectrum is too short.

Advantage, Neutral, Disadvantage.

should be

Huge Advantage, Advantage, Slight Advantage, Neutral, Slight Disadvantage, Disadvantage, Huge Disadvantage.

and if you want to go a step further and copy phannas matchup chart which i'm too lazy to find.

Yeah but then you wouldn't get to have the Pokemon references!

You are right though, but it would probably take a while.

 

[Charizard92]

Honestly, with this debate going on, why is the powerhouse (Charizard) has the most weaknesses when he is also the hardest to knock off the stage while Ivysaur is given 3 thumbs up when his weaknesses are more exploited?

 

[Pentaoku]

Okay they way I see it is that the Lucario that you just brought up has some sort of Psychic powers. Almost every attack is dodged. Lucario does have decent dodging abilities but it not all that great truth be told. In addition these Lucarios are gonna end up rolling right into you setting themselves up for Bullet seed.

On top of that Ivysaur is actually a light wait in terms of weight so the up tilt juggling doesnt work so well. Admittedly Forward tilt does have range over Ivy but I doubt that forward tilts are gonna end up killing Ivysaur anyway.

Vine whip is the single hardest move to actually predict off someone who your playing against the first time. Most PT players only use Vine whip to get back to the stage. Pokemon trainers know Ivysaur has it and still get surprised when someone pulls it out.

Which brings me back to edgeguarding . Ivysaur can easily destroy Lucarios edgeguarding game with well planed Razor leafs and Fairs. On both returning to the edge Ivy has Lucario out flanked due to the intail start up time of extreme speed which vine whip has a higher priorty over.

Lucarios smashes are amongst the slower in the game meaning Ivysaur can out smash him if it ever came to that

Not all that great? Are you kidding me? His rolls are easily the best in the entire game. They get into their invincibility practically instantly... but honestly, I'm not trying to say Lucario is the best ever and completely shuts down Ivysaur, but to say he's got a bad match up against Ivysaur is ludicrous.

Ivysaur doesn't really have anything that can tip the match into it's favor. Vinewhip helps, if you can land it. At a distance, you can not pressure Lucario to approach aerially with Razor Leaves due to Aura Sphere. In close quarters, your moves are laggy and punishable by rolls/spot dodges easily. It doesn't help that Lucario's roll is incredibly fast either. Lucario doesn't rely on Smashes in close quarters either. In fact, if you get grabbed, he can turn the battle into an aerial one. In the air, Ivysaur's attacks are too slow, save back air and up air, to effectively trounce Lucario. Lucario can also combo in mid air, so your focus shifts from staying in a stable position to just getting the heck outta the air.

Sure ftilt isn't going to kill you, but it'll rack damage up well, and it'll push you back a fair distance if you can shield it. Even if you perfect shield the first blast, the second blast will still hamper you and prevent you from punishing too quickly, and possibly at all.

Now let's talk edge guarding. Ivysaur has one of the worst recoveries in the game, easily. Lucario has a decent one, that can vary depending on the stage even. If Ivysaur is being edge guarded, it takes Razor Leaves to stop Lucario, if Lucario apts to edge hog. However if Lucario apts to chase instead, Ivysaur is again outfitted with the issue of slow aerials. Forward air is annoying as hell if you're off the stage, and trying to get him to leave you alone via up air or air dodging is simply not an option if you're anywhere below the stage's edge. Forward air is slower than Lucario's back air is, and has less range (IIRC). This gives Ivysaur even more issues to deal with. Coupled with the fact Lucario can pull off 4 back airs from a ledge drop and still maintain the ability to reach the edge gets really annoying for that Ivysaur.

Now if Lucario is recovering, Ivysaur has to take the stage into consideration. Are there areas in which Lucario can wall cling, or hang on to in general? If there are, Edge hogging won't completely solve the issue of his recovery, but only if the Lucario player can actually use those areas. Let's say he can for now, he's clingong onto the wall. If you don't do something, he'll just hop back up to the stage. You can try jumping down there and killing him, but it puts you at risk for him air dodging and then him edge guarding/hogging YOU. So instead, it may be wise to instead try to camp the edge or something, since that wall cling opens up so many mind games, the match could swing either way at that point. If you pick the safe route, he probably recovers. If you pick the risky route, you risk dying instead. The wall cling is deadly, though luckily for people who aren't Lucario, it's not easy to wall cling, and it's stage specific.

So let's now say he isn't wall clinging. If he's returning from above the stage, his aerials can intercept your attacks unless he can't see you coming for whatever reason, or he can air dodge, and due to floatiness, not lose a lot of precious height. But also due to that floatiness, you may be able to sneak in another attack in. If he's far horizontal, it's still too dangerous to try and attack him because again, forward air is very quick and has far range. I'm talking either a teeny bit less or equal to Marth's forward air. If he air dodges, he has to use his second jump, and he'd probably have to use it anyway. But the point is, that's when you have the chance again. If you can intercept his recovery from an air dodge with a down air spike, it's a win for you. But if he chose to attack, and you got hit, he's pretty much safe. Under the stage, Ivysaur has a pretty decent advantage, since edge hogging can really get annoying. If Lucario isn't aiming for the edge, he'll aim for solid ground. Extremespeed has bad lag on landing. That is your time to hit with an up air or smash if he landed near you on stages like Final Destination. Uair will get him if he's on a platform on something like battlefield.

So yeah, Ivysaur doesn't have a win match up on Lucario. I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, but it's surely not an advantage.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Well, first i wolud like to thank all you , because this tread has helped me SOOOOO much against my friend ( who now mains olimar and those pikmin where a real headhache) now i can fight him very well and i have pushed him to use marth and zelda again ( its a lot of more familiar to me fighting against them) , to add to the tread, i think that lucario is neutral against ivysaur, cause even ivy is better in puttin damage than killing( which helps lucario a lot) ivy still has some pretty decent ko moves that can give lucario a lot of trouble, like a unexpected smash or vine whip, but what works better for me are fair, nair and dair , lucario is very floaty and (as far as i know) his upB doesnt damage and IS punishable, althoug you would prefer to aim to the star ko

 

[Fearmy]

3 days ago i played a solid Lucarico player on SWR. I found ivysaur to be really helpful on lucarcio. Lucarcio just liked to spam baby aura spheres, so i just f tilted, and then he tried to approach from the air. i quickly saw this coming and started a BS. Now i can tell what way most people go, because if they are going left, i can see them moving a little left in my BS. so i prepared for either a UP +B if he jumped, or a hyphen smash if he wasn't. He didn't jump and i just hyphen smashed him and killed him at 70%.

lucarcio does have his strength in dodging, but the fact of ivysaur is that the most useful killing moves have a little bit of lag. F smash doesn't have that much lag. F-air as long as you auto cancel, and Up B SS doesn't have that much lag too. U-air and U-smash are the laggiest, but usually if you hit them, they are probably going to die.

The other thing about lucarcio was that if i tried to U-air him, he would D-air me, so basically that wasn't even worth it. Grabs had a huge impact on lucarcio, nice length and sent him and helped out with combos, for some reason, ivysaur, who normally is tied with charizard, was doing better than my squirtle, and far better than charizard, who i am not a slouch at. Ivysaur needs to play a lot of mind games with lucarcio. The most annoying thing i found about lucarcio was his sheild grab. He sheild grabs me and does a back throw and this is at the edge so i just go flying horizontally.

Though the main reason why i owned lucarcio was basically gimping. When lucario tried to do his Second jump, he would use his aura spheres, only 1 or 2, but i had razor leaf so they cancelled each other out, and i sent more coming at him, and 1 hits him as he does his 2nd jump. i quickly run down, and up B, and lucarcio is out of luck.

~hopes this helps.

 

[Fearmy]

time has stopped in this thread...? curse you shadow

 

[Helios42]

This is just from experience, but I find squirtle is good against jigglypuff. They have a similar air game, but squirtle hits harder. When I battle jigglypuff mainers, I tend to gain the advantage when I'm squirtle. Also, withdraw beats rollout, which is always a plus. Finally, jiggs has a hard time resting squirtle, due to his size. Ivy and Char both are pretty big, so they can be hit a lot.

 

[Fearmy]

This is just from experience, but I find squirtle is good against jigglypuff. They have a similar air game, but squirtle hits harder. When I battle jigglypuff mainers, I tend to gain the advantage when I'm squirtle. Also, withdraw beats rollout, which is always a plus. Finally, jiggs has a hard time resting squirtle, due to his size. Ivy and Char both are pretty big, so they can be hit a lot.

Jiggles won't be staying in the air, where she can actually do stuff, with ivysaur though. She is infact the lightest character, and let's see, Ivysaur usually gets kills by UP B, USmash, Fair, Uair, and Fsmash, and maybe if they get too high, Uthrow. 1/2 of them kill the air. Jiggles can approach with F-air, Ivysaur can Shield grab that. Jiggles uses roll out, Ivysaur uses Razor leaf, and i think they cancel out not sure though. Seeing that mainly jiggles should be killed vertically, ivysaur can eaisly do that.

I guess Squirtle and Ivysaur are good against jiggles

 

[infernovia]

Why is Charizard at a disadvantage against Ness? At the very least, its neutral due to his infinite chaingrab on him.

Edit: Actually, it seems EVERYONE can chain him. =/ Ness and Lucas matchups just got a big bite. Squirtle has to walk a bit to regrab, charizard can stand grab, not sure about Ivysaur where I am getting conflicting information.

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

I agree with most things here, but I haven't played much PT.

But Charizard being at a disadvantage against Ness is laughable. I was honestly unaware that infinite grabs gave you a disadvantage. But maybe there's something there. Please explain.

Edit: Oops, guy above me hit this, too.

 

[infernovia]

Well, here is the thing though, chain grabbing actually doesn't do that much damage due to move detoriation (I think only 20% damage from 6 grabs if you start grabbing from the beginning ). I can't check how effective this would be. I am sure it can be used to stall though.

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

An infinite doing minimal damage, is still an infinite amount damage.

 

[Tenki]

The other thing about lucarcio was that if i tried to U-air him, he would D-air me, so basically that wasn't even worth it.

I was thinking about this, and I was surprised you didn't mention it.

Lucarios are fond of their d-air.

So say a Lucario is above you. You jump to u-air them and--

Bullet seed.

..?

 

[Fearmy]

I was thinking about this, and I was surprised you didn't mention it.

Lucarios are fond of their d-air.

So say a Lucario is above you. You jump to u-air them and--

Bullet seed.

..?

that will work, that helps proves that lucarcio is weak against ivysaur,

 

[chubas]

I think Ivysaur is neutral to Lucario, since:
- Lucarios roll is very fast, and Ivysaur cannot do very much about it but Ftilt and probably Dtilt-smash. Lucario does a pretty good job approaching to Ivysaur, so I don't think camping Ivy wins this.
- Lucario is not afraid of chasing Ivys, and his jab, ftilts and fairs definitely help to keep Ivy out of platform.
- On the other hand, Lucario relies too much on its Dair as many pointed, and if something can be said about Ivy is that being above her doing other thing that dodging is a very bad idea. If that doesn't outpriorizes it at least neutralizes its efficiency.
- Ivy's game is ground game, something that Lucarios don't enjoy very much. Hitting it can be hard, but Lucario loses some of its advantage without its aerial game.

So, in my opinion, it should be neutral.

By the way. Does the discussion for characters follow a particular order? I'd suggest putting an order and state it in the title/first post, so people can check and stick with the thread.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I've been playing a Lucario recently, I always just Bullet Seed the roll if its coming up behind me. =/

Otherwise, I would just Ftilt him if he's going to roll between my Razor Leaf. Rolling is punishable very easily if spammed.

 

[Fearmy]

I've been playing a Lucario recently, I always just Bullet Seed the roll if its coming up behind me. =/

Otherwise, I would just Ftilt him if he's going to roll between my Razor Leaf. Rolling is punishable very easily if spammed.

yeah, i try to punish with a u smash, it worked well

 

[infernovia]

The one thing that is ridiculously good about lucario is his edgehog. Thats the one thing you have to really watch out for.

Edit: I have been looking at the wario board and it seems to me that you really need to play the switch right.

Pokémon Trainer: Squirtle + 6-4
Pokémon Trainer: Ivysaur + 7-3
Charizard+ 6-4
Squirtle has a hard time killing him, Ivysaur gets edgegaurded disgustingly + gets overwhelmed up close. Charizard has a very nice keep away, but gets caught in combos that are almost funny.

Right now I am thinking that squirtle start -> ivysaur kill -> Charizard left to die? I don't know, what do you guys think?

 

[Raiderwarlord99]

For lucario I tend to stick with Ivy & Charizard. Ivy can keep up with lucario's range game and can easily cancel out aura spheres. Ivy's netrual a can easily hit him out of any of his laggy smashs granted that u can c them coming ahead of time. I good Ivysaur and tear up lucario on the ground but it's when in the air where lucario can beat ivy. If I'm forced to clash with him in the air I just try to space myself with my fairs or bairs; that should keep him busy til u can reposition yourself. But watch out for that **** dair! It has high priorety (sp?), it hurts & at higher % has great knockback & KO potential. But if they're stupid and just spam on there way down they're just screaming to be punished.

In my personal opinion Charizard can go toe to toe with Lucario. With lucario's light weight Zard gonna send the poor guy flying a some low % and has many ways to punish roll heavy Lucarios (Like the one I fight) but at the same time Zard is also a big target to combo to kingdom come.

I'm not too fond of the cute turtle in this match up because of his lack of range & I rely alot on aerial attacks & Lucario usually has a field day punishing me for that with his fair, dair, aura shot or a well spaced f smash. But if I can get him off the stage I can either gimp him with fair & even if i can't I'm at least rackin up some damage but sometimes thats not a good thing with Lucario.

All 3 pokemon can abuse there strengths in this match up whether it's by out ranging, over powering or gimping. This really shouldn't be a bad match up for us. I can really get some more info on this match since I have 2 friends in my crew that main Lucario.

But remember nothing is never for certain always mix it up & turn the mindgame level up to max! And that my friend is something the PT has over everybody in the roster.. MINDGAMES!!!

 

[Steeler]

I'd say the matchup is neutral right now in Ivysaur vs. Lucario. That's where the discussion seems to be heading!

 

[Raiderwarlord99]

I have a quick question. How is Bowser a bad match up for Ivysaur. I've never fought a decent Bowser but on paper it seems that Ivy can tear Bowsy a new hole to spit fire out of.

 

[Adriel]

I have a quick question. How is Bowser a bad match up for Ivysaur. I've never fought a decent Bowser but on paper it seems that Ivy can tear Bowsy a new hole to spit fire out of.

Ivy- NOt Effective. The only thing good ivy has is her B here. She can't really kill with F Smash because of bowser's weight and great horizontal recovery

This is the reason that was posted. Maybe Ivysaur is not very effective for the same reason he is not very effective against Charizard? I don't know, but the first time I played a pro Bowser I did pretty bad against him with Ivysuar.

 

[chubas]

The only advantages I see Ivy has over Bowser is that bullet seed can do a lot of damage due to height and size, and that can combo Dthrow to Vine Whip easier. Jab spam also works somewhat.
Neutral shall be.