please desticky and replace with new thread. link to new thread in OP if needed

[Steeler]

Well guys, we are almost done. Only three people to cover. BUT that doesn't mean this is over! If you battle someone talented and find that one of your Pokemon has an easier time of it than the others, feel free to offer up your analysis. We could very well be wrong on some of these, so it's an ongoing project.

I'd like to see the second of Hydde's analyses, even if it's of someone already covered. Perhaps you have a differing opinion to share?

Finally, I really hope we can get this stickied. PM an administrator (or 5) you know will read your message and check the thread out! I tried someone but I was ignored...and I don't know much about the admins here, so please, you can do your part and make sure that people will always be able to see this thread.

 

[Card]

BUT that doesn't mean this is over! If you battle someone talented and find that one of your Pokemon has an easier time of it than the others, feel free to offer up your analysis. We could very well be wrong on some of these, so it's an ongoing project.

Seriously QFT.

After just glancing over the type chart, I see many problems. For example, Charizard is a guaranteed Punching Bag versus a Fox who knows what the heck he is doing. I've know idea how Charizard managed to get Super Effective against Fox... Along with a lot of other characters... Not to mention how Ivysaur got disadvantage versus Fox, when in actuality Ivysaur can totally shut down Fox's entire approach game (Mainly since Fox likes to abuse his overpowered D-Air Drill into Anything Combo)... Ivysaur can literally Bullet Seed ON REACTION to any Drill Kick..... but anyways.

Clearly this project is not meant to be completed on the first pass. So this is definitely a step in the right direction. Keep it up.

 

[Fearmy]

Seriously QFT.

After just glancing over the type chart, I see many problems. For example, Charizard is a guaranteed Punching Bag versus a Fox who knows what the heck he is doing. I've know idea how Charizard managed to get Super Effective against Fox... Along with a lot of other characters... Not to mention how Ivysaur got disadvantage versus Fox, when in actuality Ivysaur can totally shut down Fox's entire approach game (Mainly since Fox likes to abuse his overpowered D-Air Drill into Anything Combo)... Ivysaur can literally Bullet Seed ON REACTION to any Drill Kick..... but anyways.

Clearly this project is not meant to be completed on the first pass. So this is definitely a step in the right direction. Keep it up.

Every Fox Player i see, always roll dodges, and follow up by a F Smash. Zard's D smash totally rips fox apart in this scenario. and if i razor leaf spam with ivysaur, they reflect, Roll dodge and F smash me. I've played 3 different foxes and yet all played just like that. I was just posting my analaysis. Honestly I don't play super competitive players but I do a complete analaysis by looking for some criteria.

1. Read the Char's Fourm to see how they play
2. Play as the Character against a PT Comp
3. Play other person who mains The char (or lvl 9)
4. post, this is how i find the best results, been doing this for sometime, find more people post if it is almost completed.

Edit: After seeing your post, i went through again and find that you are right.

However, you said many things are wrong, what are they?

 

[Fearmy]

3/21 - Thread posted, that chart looks so bare and...white. Let's change that. :]

3/23 - First update! Pikachu, Zelda, Ganondorf, Pit, Ike, and R.O.B.

3/30 - Second update! Ness, Wario, Pokemon Trainer, Dedede, Olimar, Toon Link, and Sonic.

4/5 - Third update! Kirby, Fox, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Bowser, Falco, Game and Watch, Diddy, Lucas, Lucario, and Wolf.

4/8 - Fourth update! Snake, Samus, Zamus, Metaknight, Sheik, Marth, DK, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, and Mario. Olimar and Game and Watch edited.

Geez we got a lot of stuff in just 3 days. Usually I do this after a week but we got a lot of input so I decided to edit it all in now. We only have Link, Ice Climbers, and Peach to cover!

I edited Olimar's entry to Squirtle Neutral and Charizard NVE. That nc-echo quote was pretty in depth...and iirc he's a pretty well-respected Brawler too. I've fought some Olimars...but no great ones, and it looks like he's a pretty good Olimar user himself.

I apologize to Fire Wulf for overlooking his first Marth entry. I blended both his and Monolightning's analyses for the chart. Sorry again!

Special thanks to DDRKirby for PMing me his analysis of Game and Watch. Very very insightful, and he's had much more experience with GW than I have. I have edited Squirtle and Ivysaur, thanks to him. :]

Remember, just because it is now up there doesn't mean I can't change it again, so don't be afraid to suggest a change to the chart!

NOOOOOOOOOOO i wish i got a special thanks again W/E still like card said, we should be editting this so we get more accurate.

Edit: This Connection is annoying me a bit. soz for the DP, didn't know i already posted....

 

[Tipzntrix]

I respect nc-echo and his status, but the reason I dislike Squirtle so much against Olimar is because Olimar can be just as fast with more range. As echo said, those smashes (especially the D-smash) are fast and outrange anything Squirtle has. In the air, Olimar may have a tougher time with Squirtle for echo, but I much prefer the long ranged fair of Ivysaur, or the fire/ long tail of Charizard. Squirtle's aerials really have little range and you have to be touching Olimar. For the dair, I have personally been destroyed by Usmash when closing in an an Olimar, so I'm not sure that Squirtle can just go through it. Not to mention that Dair doesn't actually hit below Squirtle, it just covers his body. This means that if Olimar stays grounded, he can deal with Squirtle whether he is on the ground OR in the air.

Charizard, now, can deal with a grounded Olimar by the reach of flamethrower, rock smash, and the range of things like Fsmash, dtilt, and ftilt.

 

[Steeler]

i think olimar is a mixed bag because we are getting a lot of differing opinions on him lol. I think right now he's at 3 neutrals...and i think it's best we keep it like that for now. Most agree that Ivysaur is okay to use, but both squirtle and zard range from nve to se...

Card i really want to see some analyses from you, you really know what you are talking about.

 

[infernovia]

Every Fox Player i see, always roll dodges, and follow up by a F Smash.

Thats the computer.

IMO, the greatest advantage fox has is how fast his aerial game feels. Pit, usually a player that I have a very hard time fighting with any of the three pokemon because of his range, can be avoided completely by a jump on reaction and a follow up attack on the lag. Fox is fast, don't underestimate his approach or his ability to juggle/keep pressure on the opponent..

Anyway, I have been playing fox recently so I know by experience that what card says is true. I definitely haven't felt Ivysaur's complete dominance over fox though, but that might be due to inexperience.

Edit: Can we please ignore all data that was gotten from battling computers. I don't want to single out anyone, but if you gained data from battling incompetent players or from CPU, I think it might be better if you did not post it.

 

[Card]

Every Fox Player i see, always roll dodges, and follow up by a F Smash. Zard's D smash totally rips fox apart in this scenario. and if i razor leaf spam with ivysaur, they reflect, Roll dodge and F smash me. I've played 3 different foxes and yet all played just like that. I was just posting my analaysis. Honestly I don't play super competitive players but I do a complete analaysis by looking for some criteria.

1. Read the Char's Fourm to see how they play
2. Play as the Character against a PT Comp
3. Play other person who mains The char (or lvl 9)
4. post, this is how i find the best results, been doing this for sometime, find more people post if it is almost completed.

Edit: After seeing your post, i went through again and find that you are right.

You can play 200 Foxes and it's still possible that those 200 Fox's have no idea how to play their character

I am actually talking from quite abit of experience of playing the #1 Ranked Canadian Player (in Melee) who was a Fox main in Melee, and just so happens to be a Fox main in Brawl.

Thats the computer.
IMO, the greatest advantage fox has is how fast his aerial game feels. Pit, usually a player that I have a very hard time fighting with any of the three pokemon because of his range, can be avoided completely by a jump on reaction and a follow up attack on the lag. Fox is fast, don't underestimate his approach or his ability to juggle/keep pressure on the opponent..

Anyway, I have been playing fox recently so I know by experience that what card says is true. I definitely haven't felt Ivysaur's complete dominance over fox though, but that might be due to inexperience.

Well said. Fox is one of the few characters who can put an extreme offensive pressure on you. Which in part is why Ivysaur just performs so well against him, because Ivysaur can seriously be compared to a brick wall in terms of defense. Many of Foxes approaches literally get stuffed, and HARD by Ivysaur. Like I said earlier, Ivysaur can use "the great equalizer" (Bullet Seed) on reaction to almost all of Foxes approaches.

Dash Attack = Out of Shield Bullet Seed
Drill Kick coming downwards = Bullet Seed
Drill Kick which is Shielded = Out of Shield Bullet Seed
Drill Kick which is Shielded into Fox U-Tilt = Out of Shield Bullet Seed
** Note: You can replace Drill Kick with any of Foxes aerial approaches, but Drill Kick is the most effective **

Since almost all of his most effective approaches are done, he can rely primarily on his Grab Game. Once you know this, the match is yours, because this is not even considering just how badly Ivysaur out ranges Everything Fox can do with B-Air, F-Tilt, and Jab spamming.

If Fox begins to Lazer, you start to chuck Razor Leafs. He will not be able to Reflect them due to Lazer Lag... OR if he does manage to reflect it, the Leaf will not reflect far enough to hit Ivysaur.

Ivysaur can also Edge guard Fox incredibly well. Leap off the stage backwards, B-Air Fox during his Fox Illusion, forcing him to Fire Fox, then B-Air him again into Vine-Whip and just hang there.

Edit: Can we please ignore all data that was gotten from battling computers. I don't want to single out anyone, but if you gained data from battling incompetent players or from CPU, I think it might be better if you did not post it.

QFT, I didn't even know we were including those :embarrass

Card i really want to see some analyses from you, you really know what you are talking about.

Hrm... I'd rather not do full out character analysis. The only reason I did the Dedede Analysis is I am confident enough in analyzing Dedede this early because it happens to be my Roommates main character, so I end up playing it every day many times.

But I'll do some analysis on what I feel to be blatantly and obviously wrong. They'll come eventually today.

 

[Fearmy]

Thats the computer.


Edit: Can we please ignore all data that was gotten from battling computers. I don't want to single out anyone, but if you gained data from battling incompetent players or from CPU, I think it might be better if you did not post it.

Yes I know that you are talking about me but i JUST double Check with the computer. I usually get analysis by what the ppl are complaining about on their board, look how they usually play, and i usually get the feel for the characters, i post what i feel are the characters strong points, however for the ones that i was completely wrong abou t, people fixed me upon, and those were from the incompetent players. otherwise i doubt most of these are based on CPU, but i have done a few on incompetent players, and everyone has fixed them.

 

[infernovia]

Yeah, but you shouldn't feel like we are in a hurry to finish this chart. Its so much more difficult to play against a human because computers have noticeable patterns and thus some moves seem to be way more effective than they actually are. I would rather have no data rather than this kind of faulty data.

I know this is a lot of work, but it would be awesome if we could link the character matchup analysis to their respective contributed posts from the OP. It would be the ultimate easy access.

 

[Steeler]

alright so, from what i'm gathering from card...

fox

ivysaur super effective
charizard not very effective
squirtle.......neutral?

thanks card for your input. I'm hoping this thread will always be active and will go through many revisions before we ever get a 'final' chart.

 

[Fearmy]

alright so, from what i'm gathering from card...

fox

ivysaur super effective
charizard not very effective
squirtle.......neutral?

thanks card for your input. I'm hoping this thread will always be active and will go through many revisions before we ever get a 'final' chart.

I Doubt We ever will, since there will be new techs being found out for the characters.

And remember, just because card made a guide, doesn't mean that he always is right

(however i do agree with him now, since he pointed out how sucky my friends are, don't worry, they don't know about this site so i won't have to worry about getting a control smacked in my face)

 

[Fearmy]

Yeah, but you shouldn't feel like we are in a hurry to finish this chart. Its so much more difficult to play against a human because computers have noticeable patterns and thus some moves seem to be way more effective than they actually are. I would rather have no data rather than this kind of faulty data.

I know this is a lot of work, but it would be awesome if we could link the character matchup analysis to their respective contributed posts from the OP. It would be the ultimate easy access.

This just might be a tiny bit of misscomunication, i used the comp to figure how how strong the moves are, i don't care about really "Fighting him" I look to see what moves are physically just hard to hit on the guy, Who cares about what combos they do, just i need something in action, like Yoshi and Zard, Yoshi does F smash, i do F tilt, i get hit, just find out stuff like that, i make a very, very educated guess,

If you Do want to see, test out everyone atm yourself, then post what you find, and then see if the data is right or wrong....

Soz if seemed a lil' grummpy, I hate wenesdays....

 

[infernovia]

Hey, just to make this a topic of discussion, is squirtle really that ineffective against the Captain? Considering the turtle's airgame, I would think it is neutral.

Just bringing it up for discussion.

 

[Fearmy]

Hey, just to make this a topic of discussion, is squirtle really that ineffective against the Captain? Considering the turtle's airgame, I would think it is neutral.

Just bringing it up for discussion.

Not THAT ineffective. The thing that was just painful is his SS Knee. That instantly kills squirle (around 40%) and i assume pro falcon players can get the hang of SS, squirtle will be ineffective. Squirtle has a bit of an advantage against Falcon in air game, but since falcon has SS, that is an amazingly fast death, 2nd lightest character plus weakness to lightning = to Very early death

 

[Hydde]

Ok, the analyzes that were missing:

NESS:
Some weeks ago, i posted a thread about how i could deal with ness... well now i have more experience against the little fella...so here we go.

First some points that need to be adressed:
1-Ness danger zone: It seems this is vital for ness users. Ness doesnt have too many KO moves, and apart from the bat and the vicious back air..... his main ko MOve is his dreaded back throw. Everytime you get around 120% more or less, be ready because a grab will come. If the Ness player know what he is doing, he will save his throw for that precise moment.... so be ready when this happens ....mindgames. Ull get caught sooner or later, but try to use this to your advantage.

2-PK Fire: It ***** ivysaur and charizard!!! evade it at all costs!. It traps those 2 pokemon very easy, leaving you open for...anything, including more fires.

3-Ness Fair and dash attack: Stay away from them!! and dont try to shieldgrab him once the animation of the fair ends.. ness can do his triple jab combo faster than ur grab.

Squirtle: Slightly effective
The turtle boy can effectively face Ness, but u need to be cautious. U cant fight against his fair, none of the 3 pokes can outprioritize the fair, ull at least hit and get hitted, and thats not always. Use baits, make him use his fair, roll, mix it up. Save ur downthrow for the 130-140%... if u connect it, its a safe kill. When he is out.... make sure u take his second jump out and load a watergun(if u have not charged it already which is better), it can gimp horridbly his recovery if one of the water burst hit his pk thunder. A good move would be to hit his shield with fair and right away use ur triple jab combo... most of the time u can catch him off guard. Use ur triple jab in general(is slightly better than his), it works very good against him when both are on ground. Is not an easy battle but squirt can really do it. Beware of ur recover and his down air... it ***** squirts upB recover is u are fram form teh stage. Once he gets u in this situation u are practically death.

Ivysaur: Effective
Well, ivysaur can make lots of damage to ness. Ull be safe as long as u stay awayr from his fair and dash attack... and the pk fire. Those 3 moves are ur bane...and can juggle you like crazy. Stay just away... mix ur razor leaves with some back airs and in case of him closing in...retreat. If u feel confident enough, lure him into some bullet seeds. Be cautious with ur grab, is very slow and he can efficiently cancel it with his jab combo. Ull have to mindgame some grabs if u wanna get him. The downt tilt works wonders because is very fast, and u need fast attacks against ness. Fair is good and all but he can roll and punish in case of u failing to connect. When ness is out and without jumps.... razor leaf him, go outside iof he is not so far away... mix it up. He has difficult time recovering if u change his position with a blow. He dies rather quick with up airs and the up smash just *****... but is very difficult to connect.


Charizard: slightDisadvantage
Ok, Ness is qucik for charizard and his fair and pk fire just ***** you. Still, rock smash and the rest of the things can indeed kill him fast. This battle, you must be very very defensive... approaching with cautious. This time ur flame thower can be a good aid, or ur worst mistake if timed badly. His PK forceshield absorbs % like crazyt his time....and if u hit it with ur FT, thats it... ull waste all the precious %. What u can do is get him in the first FT...and then throw some in the air...to make him think ull go with one....and then grab him or something when he puts his shield. Is all mindgames there. Ur triple jab combo can effectively take him out of range, and ur down tilt and ftilt are good also. When he is oustide, well i dont try to go out because of char´s slowness and one miscalculated move and BAM ull eat his pk crusher entirely. IM not too gifted with charizard outside the stage, so my best advice would be to try to KO him witha siongle blow instead of edguard him. Flame throwers on edges can be good sometimes because if he calculates wrongly his sweespotting with his pk crusher.... u can get him before he touches the edge.
Overall, Ness will be all over you and run circles before u can land a hit considerably strong to kill him. U must be patient and try to at least damage him as much as u can before changing pokes. Sometimes is a good idea to do a quick change for squirtle, if u seee that u cant land that final blow. Use ur downthrow and he will be dead.

 

[maskeXD]

Ok, i went the weekend to a smash bvenue and met lots of very skilled players........ but i got information regarding 2 characters... from all the bunch i fought.. this were the ones i fought the most.

Mario: OK firstof all, this match up is very difficult for Pokemon trainer. I fought against a campy mario who was very good at meele combat. Mario has IMO better melle combat than any of your pokes, his proyectile game is more or less on par with ivy, but squirt and char succumb against this. And even ivy has it tough because of the cape. but well lets go:

Squirtle:: NeutralWell, squirtle can combo him a little.... but geez... ,Mario is so difficult to fight. He almost always puts u on the offensive. From the 3 pokemons, squirt is the one who can face him better on one on one, because u have quick aerials.... but still is not easy. His smashes are good,,, and gosh, mario can combo. My advice would be to play on the line of his fireballs and try to lure him with Water gun.Lately i have noticed how underrated watrer gun is. yeah is not the next best thing but in this kind of fights, this can be handy. In previous posts i said how good is this attack to gimp who are coing to the stage, but in this fight agaionst mario , you can use this to change his position. If Mario wants to play it safe, he will try to lure you with fireballs, but if u time it well, you can unleas the waterball and move him out of his campy position. Sometimes ull force him to edgehog, and even when this doesnt change much the battle, it forces him to reacomodate and from this point you can try to get close to him.

Ivysaur: Neutral
Ok, even when i say is neutral, i still say that mario has the upper hand here, but not by much. The key is to not let him get close to you too oftenly. He can combo , and will punish you everytime he gets on range. Ull have to play intelligenttly with ur leaves because he can turn them back to you, and his spam game is also good. As always, try to get to him with back airs... this attack can accurately destroy his fireballs and also hit him. remember that mario doesnt have good range, so using this attack for spacing is crucial. Ur Ftilt could be of good use in case he gets to be in front of you but at a moderate distance. In case of being comboed, try to lure him to miss an attack or hit ur shield, and bullet seed right away. he is small so it will not be easy to get him on it... but when u do.. im very sure he will think twice in going gung ho against you.. From the 3 pokes, Ivisaur is the one who can dish out damage faster and IMO is the best when trying to go out and klill people. U will have to use whatever u have at your disposal to kill. Dont be shy and go out. Ivysaur can suprisingly do a lot of attacks outside the stage and come back, most people dont expect this.


Charizard: Neutral
Oh, poor charizard...... from the 3, with him was the one i had the most difficult time. Dont get me wrong, he can hit mario, and hit him hard, his flamthower is godly as always but , well what can i say, Mario and his fireballs are a pain... but the worst is a combo he has on charizard. IM not sure if this cmbo is unavoidable, but i was caught twice on it and it was not funny. Mario can combo charizard with short hopped Up airs across final destination. I tried to dodge the attacks but they were so quick that zard was not able to go out of his flinch animation, and since he is the big pinhata pokemon,,, is even harder to dodge. U can dish very good damage on him, but just dont get caught on this... ull pay dearly. Try to catch mario with ur flame thrower, play very defensive when he comes near to you and do your best to avoid fireballs. :S
I also saw comments regarding mario in the thread, but im veru sure is not as easya s some put it here, unless they have fought careless marios. Charizard can fight mario on melee battle, but mario can put as much damage in the same way. The combo i mentioned earlier is not easy to DI out, and his fireball game can be annoying. Definitely not a walk in the park.

Ok, the analyzes that were missing:

NESS:
Some weeks ago, i posted a thread about how i could deal with ness... well now i have more experience against the little fella...so here we go.

First some points that need to be adressed:
1-Ness danger zone: It seems this is vital for ness users. Ness doesnt have too many KO moves, and apart from the bat and the vicious back air..... his main ko MOve is his dreaded back throw. Everytime you get around 120% more or less, be ready because a grab will come. If the Ness player know what he is doing, he will save his throw for that precise moment.... so be ready when this happens ....mindgames. Ull get caught sooner or later, but try to use this to your advantage.

2-PK Fire: It ***** ivysaur and charizard!!! evade it at all costs!. It traps those 2 pokemon very easy, leaving you open for...anything, including more fires.

3-Ness Fair and dash attack: Stay away from them!! and dont try to shieldgrab him once the animation of the fair ends.. ness can do his triple jab combo faster than ur grab.

Squirtle: Slightly effective
The turtle boy can effectively face Ness, but u need to be cautious. U cant fight against his fair, none of the 3 pokes can outprioritize the fair, ull at least hit and get hitted, and thats not always. Use baits, make him use his fair, roll, mix it up. Save ur downthrow for the 130-140%... if u connect it, its a safe kill. When he is out.... make sure u take his second jump out and load a watergun(if u have not charged it already which is better), it can gimp horridbly his recovery if one of the water burst hit his pk thunder. A good move would be to hit his shield with fair and right away use ur triple jab combo... most of the time u can catch him off guard. Use ur triple jab in general(is slightly better than his), it works very good against him when both are on ground. Is not an easy battle but squirt can really do it. Beware of ur recover and his down air... it ***** squirts upB recover is u are fram form teh stage. Once he gets u in this situation u are practically death.

Ivysaur: Effective
Well, ivysaur can make lots of damage to ness. Ull be safe as long as u stay awayr from his fair and dash attack... and the pk fire. Those 3 moves are ur bane...and can juggle you like crazy. Stay just away... mix ur razor leaves with some back airs and in case of him closing in...retreat. If u feel confident enough, lure him into some bullet seeds. Be cautious with ur grab, is very slow and he can efficiently cancel it with his jab combo. Ull have to mindgame some grabs if u wanna get him. The downt tilt works wonders because is very fast, and u need fast attacks against ness. Fair is good and all but he can roll and punish in case of u failing to connect. When ness is out and without jumps.... razor leaf him, go outside iof he is not so far away... mix it up. He has difficult time recovering if u change his position with a blow. He dies rather quick with up airs and the up smash just *****... but is very difficult to connect.


Charizard: slightDisadvantage
Ok, Ness is qucik for charizard and his fair and pk fire just ***** you. Still, rock smash and the rest of the things can indeed kill him fast. This battle, you must be very very defensive... approaching with cautious. This time ur flame thower can be a good aid, or ur worst mistake if timed badly. His PK forceshield absorbs % like crazyt his time....and if u hit it with ur FT, thats it... ull waste all the precious %. What u can do is get him in the first FT...and then throw some in the air...to make him think ull go with one....and then grab him or something when he puts his shield. Is all mindgames there. Ur triple jab combo can effectively take him out of range, and ur down tilt and ftilt are good also. When he is oustide, well i dont try to go out because of char´s slowness and one miscalculated move and BAM ull eat his pk crusher entirely. IM not too gifted with charizard outside the stage, so my best advice would be to try to KO him witha siongle blow instead of edguard him. Flame throwers on edges can be good sometimes because if he calculates wrongly his sweespotting with his pk crusher.... u can get him before he touches the edge.
Overall, Ness will be all over you and run circles before u can land a hit considerably strong to kill him. U must be patient and try to at least damage him as much as u can before changing pokes. Sometimes is a good idea to do a quick change for squirtle, if u seee that u cant land that final blow. Use ur downthrow and he will be dead.

Man, you're re-analysing characters and talking nonsense. Squirtle is never neutral aganist Mario, his (Mario's) air game is the same, but with more finishers. Zard is REALLY super effective, Mario is dead aganist Zard's edgeguarding.

I'm a Ness player and NEVER lost to an Ivysaur. I can't recover aganist squirtles... WG are really deadly... Zards are sitting ducks(even though charizard is my favorite poké in this game).

And please people, this is not a research about PT. It's about the other characters. Post the right names for their attacks and stratagies. Don't post "PK forcefield" instead of PSI Magnet or "PK crusher" instead of PK Thunder 2.

Oh, by the way, this thread is getting SOOOOO good.. =)

 

[Hydde]

Man, you're re-analysing characters and talking nonsense. Squirtle is never neutral aganist Mario, his (Mario's) air game is the same, but with more finishers. Zard is REALLY super effective, Mario is dead aganist Zard's edgeguarding.

I'm a Ness player and NEVER lost to an Ivysaur. I can't recover aganist squirtles... WG are really deadly... Zards are sitting ducks(even though charizard is my favorite poké in this game).

And please people, this is not a research about PT. It's about the other characters. Post the right names for their attacks and stratagies. Don't post "PK forcefield" instead of PSI Magnet or "PK crusher" instead of PK Thunder 2.

Oh, by the way, this thread is getting SOOOOO good.. =)

Mm u agree with my Ness analyzis and still im talking nonsense eh? , never lost to an ivysaur? congratz! and u being a Ness player! wow!.

Like i said to you before, i dont know what kind of mario u have played. Im taking my notes by personal experience. I fought against a Mafrio who was VERY good in melee combat but was extremely campy. For me, it was not easy because he just kept running and throwing fireballs..and when he got the chance, he unleashed very good combos. It could be that you have fought very straight forward marios who go to fight you at all costs, this what not the case.
Oh and btw, with the names, oh yeah i dont know them, but if you get the idea of what im talking about, its fine with me, that was the purpouse.

So before going nuts against other players, remember that this thread is to recopilate data, and in the end, make a consensus to see what is the more accurate information regarding characters.

Gimme ur FC number and we can see what are u talking about , i can be ur first ivysaur defeat!


EDIT: oh i read ur sig...its a shame.

 

[Fearmy]

So before going nuts against other players, remember that this thread is to recopilate data, and in the end, make a consensus to see what is the more accurate information regarding characters.

Gimme ur FC number and we can see what are u talking about , i can be ur first ivysaur defeat!

EDIT: oh i read ur sig...its a shame.

Remember everyone has a different playstyle

and don't got a little over confident, it always hurts more if you do lose

 

[Hydde]

Its ok, im never ever over confident. In melee, one of the first rules everyone learned, was to never underestimate ur opponent. I never did that in tournies, not even when i was 3 stocking my opponent.

Yes, different play styles is why we are here posting. More different styles of the same match up, the better conclutions we can take. In the same way i cannot judge his experiences, he cannot judge mines with that air of security.


My 2 cents.

 

[maskeXD]

Mm u agree with my Ness analyzis and still im talking nonsense eh? , never lost to an ivysaur? congratz! and u being a Ness player! wow!.

Like i said to you before, i dont know what kind of mario u have played. Im taking my notes by personal experience. I fought against a Mafrio who was VERY good in melee combat but was extremely campy. For me, it was not easy because he just kept running and throwing fireballs..and when he got the chance, he unleashed very good combos. It could be that you have fought very straight forward marios who go to fight you at all costs, this what not the case.
Oh and btw, with the names, oh yeah i dont know them, but if you get the idea of what im talking about, its fine with me, that was the purpouse.

So before going nuts against other players, remember that this thread is to recopilate data, and in the end, make a consensus to see what is the more accurate information regarding characters.

Gimme ur FC number and we can see what are u talking about , i can be ur first ivysaur defeat!


EDIT: oh i read ur sig...its a shame.

1st: I said I disagreed with the Ivysaur part of Ness and Squirtle and Zard parts of Mario.

2nd: You said:"Ok, the analyzes that were missing:". They weren't missing.

3rd: You were just beaten by that Mario mindgame. You should be the one controlling him.

4th: If you don't know the names of the character's attacks, it means you don't deeply know and research about them with other player before posting here.

5th: Who are you calling nuts ????

6th: Sorry, I really overdid myself.

 

[Fearmy]

1st: I said I disagreed with the Ivysaur part of Ness and Squirtle and Zard parts of Mario.

2nd: You said:"Ok, the analyzes that were missing:". They weren't missing.

3rd: You were just beaten by that Mario mindgame. You should be the one controlling him.

4th: If you don't know the names of the character's attacks, it means you don't deeply know and research about them with other player before posting here.

5th: Who are you calling nuts ????

6th: Sorry, I really overdid myself.

well let's look at the character's Str and Weaknesses. what combos are performed, and how are they dodgeable? We are just looking for the advantage people, not saying how good you did against some pro player

 

[maskeXD]

well let's look at the character's Str and Weaknesses. what combos are performed, and how are they dodgeable? We are just looking for the advantage people, not saying how good you did against some pro player

That's what I'm talking about. About how PT does aganist others, and not about "my personal experience"

 

[Hydde]

personal experiences is all what we are looking here... in that way in the long run we can see similarities and then judge for ourselves.
Steeler asked me for the char i was missing in my last post, so i posted it. Its not that i was talking about the character analyzys in the whole thread, just the one i didnt post.

Really , dont lose ur time posting that way. If u have some positive facts to share with us, u are welcome to do it... but to come and say "u are talking nonsense" in every post, we will not go anywhere.
and yes u clearly overdo urself, in every post.

Now lets go on please ,we are derailing ia very promising topic.

 

[Wyvern]

I haven't gotten a chance to go through the thread fully yet (I definitely will later when I'm not so busy and the board isn't acting up), but there's one thing that bothers me right off the bat. What's the justification for putting Squirtle as neutral against Pikachu?

I was playing a campy Pikachu the other day, and my Squirtles got eaten alive. I couldn't find a way through the downsmash spam. Aerial approaches will just get shielded and countered, and his ground game is pretty terrible. Everything is too slow or too short...I couldn't even run in and grab without getting electrocuted to death. Even if you DO manage to penetrate the downsmash and get the Pikachu into the air, I had trouble doing much from there...he's small and it's pretty easy for him to get back to the ground. Quick Attack makes him practically impossible to edgeguard too. The thundershocks don't exactly help matters either...

Ivysaur is pretty bad against Pika too, but at least there are a couple of attacks to draw on. Stuff like the bair and forward smash can get you some damage if you time and space them perfectly, and I think the fair might be usable too (Pikachu's forward smash beats it in horizontal range, but I think the vines might have more downwards range...I can't remember exactly). You still have the disadvantage, but you're not totally helpless. I can't really see why Ivysaur is listed as ineffective and Squirtle is neutral. Unless I'm just missing something...I'm not quite as knowledgeable about Squirtle as I am for the other two.

 

[Fearmy]

I haven't gotten a chance to go through the thread fully yet (I definitely will later when I'm not so busy and the board isn't acting up), but there's one thing that bothers me right off the bat. What's the justification for putting Squirtle as neutral against Pikachu?

I was playing a campy Pikachu the other day, and my Squirtles got eaten alive. I couldn't find a way through the downsmash spam. Aerial approaches will just get shielded and countered, and his ground game is pretty terrible. Everything is too slow or too short...I couldn't even run in and grab without getting electrocuted to death. Even if you DO manage to penetrate the downsmash and get the Pikachu into the air, I had trouble doing much from there...he's small and it's pretty easy for him to get back to the ground. Quick Attack makes him practically impossible to edgeguard too. The thundershocks don't exactly help matters either...

Ivysaur is pretty bad against Pika too, but at least there are a couple of attacks to draw on. Stuff like the bair and forward smash can get you some damage if you time and space them perfectly, and I think the fair might be usable too (Pikachu's forward smash beats it in horizontal range, but I think the vines might have more downwards range...I can't remember exactly). You still have the disadvantage, but you're not totally helpless. I can't really see why Ivysaur is listed as ineffective and Squirtle is neutral. Unless I'm just missing something...I'm not quite as knowledgeable about Squirtle as I am for the other two.

You are right, i recently played a pikachu, even though he wasn't a pro, i still had a tough time with ivy. Squirtle had a tough time approaching, as you mentioned, the Sheild and counters, but i also had annoyed at Thunder.... Ivysaur couldn't really approach, but has i think better range than Pika( it takes forever for pika to cast thunder shock). The D smash gets in the way, but for somereason i always own pikachu wiht Zard, just those rock send him flying

 

[Razzo]

Vs. marth with squirtle is easier than you may think. I would reccomend dodging all the attacks and when a laggy attack is done move in and combo.

 

[maskeXD]

Man, some people really use falácias.....

 

[Steeler]

yeh i suppose pikachu has a lot of disjointed hitboxes (fsmash, dsmash, fair) great projectile and thunder to **** on your air game...

that and squirtle is weak to electric attacks haha.

squirtle nve, ivysaur...nve, zard...?

i find it kind of hard to believe that not one of the three would have at least a slight advantage but hey, pika's good.

 

[Shadow 111]

You are right, i recently played a pikachu, even though he wasn't a pro, i still had a tough time with ivy. Squirtle had a tough time approaching, as you mentioned, the Sheild and counters, but i also had annoyed at Thunder.... Ivysaur couldn't really approach, but has i think better range than Pika( it takes forever for pika to cast thunder shock). The D smash gets in the way, but for somereason i always own pikachu wiht Zard, just those rock send him flying

yea, i definitely think zard is good against pika. he can kill so easily.


also- can someone give a reason why sheik is good against ivy? really thought ivysaur would at least be even, but if someone could explain it then... lol thanks.

 

[Steeler]

i just got a great idea, thanks to a pm from stealth raptor.

to give this thread some much needed structure, why don't we focus on one character per week? this way, we can all focus our attention on that character, talk to the people at that character's board, and get a good consensus on what worked and what didn't.

it'd take about...10 months to finish every character at that pace, but i'd assume that some of the characters we have are already correct, so we can be selective about it if we can all agree on some stuff we already have. inputs from experienced people would be very appreciated here too.

 

[feardragon64]

Great thread steeler =]. I just made it my desktop background for reference xD

And that new character a week idea sounds great. I know this would be absolute hell for you, but since you're doing the one character thing per week, it might be easier for you:
Could you edit the reasoning for each character's super effective/neutral/not very effective status? I think a lot of people are just left wondering why x pokemon is weak/strong against y character. While normally I would agree with anyone who says you're just being lazy if you can't go through 8 or so pages of threads, it'd be great to have this as a quick reference. I know that when I'm practicing, I love to reference the chart to know which pokemon to concentrate on, but constantly finding myself wondering why EXACTLY that pokemon was selected as super effective.

Anyways, if you feel it's not worth the effort/think it's a bad idea, then no worries. I understand.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[feardragon64]

Ok, double post, sorry, but I just spent like forever going through and quoting all(I think) the posts that revealed the reasoning behind the decisions(I THINK that I quoted all of the final reasoning, but if you can you should double check)
Anywho, hope this makes life easier for everyone(prepare for an uber long post )

I agree with your breakdown of Ike vs. the pokemon, and it seems rather solid. Also, the concept is really great. I have a few suggestions as well, but don't take them as truth, since I wouldn't call myself the best player.

Pikachu:
Squirtle: I have problems, since Pika can spam his N-Bs, is too small to effectively aerial spam, and can just as easily evade my aerial spam as I can dish it out. It's a tough fight for Squirtle.
Ivysaur: I feel like Ivy has a slight disadvantage, but will do much better than squirtle in this matchup. Her Razor Leaves get canceled by Pika's more spammable lightning, and she can be chain grabbed. Despite all this, keeping your spacing up will be effective, so I think neutral is fair.
Charizard: I've had a hard time with pika as Char, but after I looked at some of my mistakes, I think that the matchup is in Charizard's favor. Using flamethrower for single jumped edgeguards builds up a lot of damage, and Zard's huge grab range makes it easy to shield and grab to punish aerials and the like. I'd give Charizard a green.

Zelda:
Squirtle: I played a pretty decent amount of matches vs. Zelda, and feel that Squirtle's speed just completely counters Zelda's slow magic. Air dodging her fireballs, and faking her out with shellshifts will open her to easy punishment. Grabbing into Squirtle's aerials is surefire ****.
Ivysaur: Ivy has great range, and decent defensive play as well. Spamming Razor leaf at the right time will really screw up Zelda's rhythm, and it's really easy to coax into a punishment. Her fall from above is really easy to predict, and she doesn't have much to change that. Bullet seed or Up-air/smash will dominate her.
Charizard: Charizard is big. He's huge. Shielding will sometimes result in being hit by her fireballs, just because he's so big, and his shield has open spots on his head/back (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how it has seemed to me.) It's really easy to get chain fireballed if you mistime even 1 fireball, and her up-smash can really cause trouble when you're above her. Try and use Zard's awesome grab range to do some damage, but it seems like a bad match up to me.

*more to come later*

this is an awesome idea. my bro plays ROB all the time, so ill attempt to cover match-ups for him.

Squirtle: super effective. alot of rob's game is in his airs, and squirtle outspeeds/maneuvers him in the air for the most part. rob can be juggled farily easily with squirtles u-tilt.

Ivysaur: neutral. his aerial game is quite a bit slower than squirtle's, giving rob a much better chance to dominate in the air. ivysaur's razor leaf isnt particularly effective as rob has projectiles of his own. ivysaur can take down rob, but its not the easiest matchup

Charizard: not very effective. once again it kinda comes down to the air game. with robs ability to hover so well most of the game will be in the air anyway. unlike ivysaur and squirtle, rob really outclasses charizard in the air. fair is really the only effective air move here, and a good rob can use a quick hover over this and dair spike charizard.

this is of course just an opinion. i dont claim to be a PT expert, and my brother certainly isnt an expert as ROB either. skill wise we match up pretty evenly though.

Love this idea... Here is a tough one that i did today.

vs Marth
First off.. this match is hella tough just on its own.

Squirtle: I want to give this one a neutral because they are both speedy characters and can dish out damage and have trouble killing. Keep bobbing and weaving with squirtle and don't become predictable. No clear advantage here.. all based on skill.

Ivysaur: Personally, ivy is my fav. I can dish damage and kill pretty effectively... but with this matchup.. you are at a disadvantage IMO. Sure you can spam the Razor Leaf.. but if Marth gets within range... good luck. Marth had more speed on the ground and the air. Once your in the air... get back down as fast as possible cuz the juggling gets ridiculous.

Charizard: for some reason, i seem to have the most luck with charizard. He's a tank and can take a ton of damage before getting killed.. and he can dish it out really fast as well. You can gimp Marth fast off the level with Fair... but Charizard is also a huge target and can get abused. Jabs, tilts, and grabs are your friend. Final decision. Neutral- no advantage either way. Some may argue disadvantage.. but i stick with neutral.

Well for pit (for me)

Squirtle is very helpful with his aerial attacks. Kept Juggling my friend even in fatigue mode. He's good


For Ivy, i had a little tough time just connecting my smashes, but i pulled through He's neutral

For zard... the arrow spamming at long distances and when you get close a quick across b and then a few smashes sent this guy flying. He's pretty bad

For the Ike in the first post... i agree with everything except the Charizard being not very effective... i would put charizard at neutral against Ike... both big slow heavy hitters. Everything said about Ike juggling is correct... but i can get Charizard to do the same thing with jabs, tilts and grabs.


Completely agree with the pikachu and zelda match ups described.

Haven't played a Rob so no opinion there

And the Pit description is DEAD ON.. i play a spammy pit and that is exactly what happens... Squirtle is totally super effective, Ivy is neutral, and Charizard has a lot of trouble.

I think that these are good and can be displayed on the top pic

VS. Ganondorf

Squirtle can WoP, throw out jabs, and generally get great combos off on Ganond. Recovery is very easily gimped by proper edgeguarding too. Ganondorf has a slight range advantage and kills early, but with careful spacing, I don't see how Ganondorf can really get a solid hit ever. I'd say this is Neutral - Super.

Ivysaur just destroys. Razor leaf spam, bullet seed rams Ganon in the ***, Ganon can't get through the Bairs, Ftilt shrugs off pretty much every approach if you don't use Bair for that job. Easy to land the finishing moves on. Definitely Super effective.

Charizard is a bit more even with Ganondorf. However, jabs, down tilts, short hopped nairs, etc. do a good job at keep away. Rock Smash is easy to land. Flamethrower eats him slightly less than bullet seed does. Be careful, however, as it doesn't seem like Zard can effectively juggle Ganon because of Down Air and Down B having a load of priority. Off the edge, Zard shares a commonality with Squirtle in that Ganondorf is just dead so long as you don't screw up. You can even get Dairs off on him.


Also, the guy is footstool spike fodder.

Squirtle vs. Squirtle

Totally even, it's all about who plays the better game.

Ivysaur vs. Ivysaur

Same as above

Charizard vs. Charizard

Same again


Squirtle vs. Ivysaur

This is an interesting one. It's is generally difficult for Squirtle to get near Ivysaur because of Razor Leaf, Bair, etc. However, once Squirtle is in close quarters it starts slapping Ivy around with the typical combo ability and doesn't generally get shield grabbed. Ivy has better flat out KO ability, but Squirtle ***** an Ivysaur off the edge. I've really seen this go both ways. Neutral.

Squirtle vs. Charizard

Fun again. Zard is good at protecting itself with those massive hitboxes, great durability, and early KOs. Squirtle, on the other hand, racks very easily like against any other heavyweight. When it comes time for Squirt to kill, Usmash is brilliant because of Zard's apparent water weak. If fatigue sets in, however, Squirtle begins to have a hard time. Probably also neutral, all things considered.


Ivysaur vs. Charizard

Ivysaur wins on the ground, Charizard wins in the air. Take that for what you will.



I dunno, it just seems to me that in all my experience with the PT ditto, it's all about who plays the matchups better.

Vs. Toon Link

Squirtle= Horrible, toon link has rather good aerial game as well.

Ivy= Great, Keep your distance, his sword isn't longer than your vines. Vine whip when he goes for the airial then as hes falling get right underneath him and use bullet seed continuously

Char= Neutral? toon link's punching bag but charizard has superarmor on his up-b, which breaks up combos quite nicely. Also up-b easily KO lightwights like TL.

Ness:

Squirtle: Super effective: Them both have great aerial games and a medium ground game. But squirtle's Water Gun can make Ness' PKT2 backfire.

Ivysaur: Neutral.: Both are good ranged, ivysaur's got a better ground game, but Ness has got his aerials. Ness juggles Ivysaur pretty well, but Ivysaur is one of the best anti-airs. Ivy's razor leaf can't be absorbed, but can be reflected.

Charizard: Not very effective: Big, easily juggled, easily absorbed, Ness' PK Thunders can cancel every single glide, glide is predictable, so PK Flash!

Olimar:
I fought for first time a good campy olimar yesterday and this was what i notcied.

Squirtle: Disadvantage.
Definitely the less efective of the 3. His range is too small to beat a campy olimar. Not to mention that Olimar smashes allof em hurt a lot and has wide range. Like someone said before, what hurts the most is the aerial slap. Ull find urself working A LOT to hit him, and he will hit you wirth ease and built up much more damage than you. But all is not lost. If u really wanna use squirt, there is one tactic that totally pwns olimar, and is WATERGUN. Olimar gets gimped by water gun so easily that is insane. If by luck, you are able to put him out of the stage, always always have a water gun charged and blast it right in his face. Sometimes Olimar will try to throw piks at you, and will be a little careless with his pikkin rope. The watergun can be the difference in space he needed to get back.
I wouls suggest using squrlte just when Olimar is in high %, since squirts aerials have good knockback, and his downthrow is very nice, u can set up a water gun trap... if not, is not worth the effort-.


Charizard: Neutral
Well, this battle is not easy. Olimar can rag up damage like crazy, and when h gets you airborne, you will be in some trouble as u become a very big flying pinhata. Rry to stay ground as much as you can. If he starts spamming piks, burn them to his death and take a close eye on how much piks he has left. There will be one moment when he will have to recharge or move,, use that moment to get close and land more Fters. If you get in range try to use ur down or forwward tilts. Sometimes aerial rok smashes will protect you when advancing to him.

Ivysaur: Neutral.
Not an easy task either. To try to get to him, you can try to spam war against him with ur leaves, but be sure that ull lose in the damage department, some of his pikmins will hit you and get much much more damage. Why i do this? because some of ur leaves will hit him too, creating an opportunity to continue approaching. U can try to get to him with an aerial leaf, and then f smash... or this other tactic:
I have noticed that when u are at medium range of him, the forward tilt almost totally nullifies his pikmins and also the last bit of the animation sometimes tend to hit olimar, creating that much needed flinch animation u want. If u are carefull, spam this in his face and then force him to move or change tactics, from there u must find a way to predict his moves and attack. The con of this tactic is his grab range, u must be predicting when u think he will grab you instead of throwing another pikmin, which is not easy, but the pros are better than the cons. Is a very nice way to break his pikmin camping. If he gets u airborne try to land a bak air just to flinch him, escape right away and reorganize urself.
Dont do mindless aerial approaches because ull pay dearly.
When he gets you out of the stage, tryto lure him out with a leaf, and if all is lost, my last tip will be to aim carefully the UP B and surprise him. I have killed a lot of edgehoggers because of this,. They think that u are done when they are hoged. In fact u are done but u have ur last card. Use ur sweetspotted uPB to take them down with you. But it must be sweetspotted. Its too much fun to see them dying in early % because of being stage spiked.

-----GANONDORF-----


Squirtle: Slight Advantage
Squirtle IMO, has the upper hand in this fight, but not by much. What you can do with squirt , is to beat him in speed, going in and out of his range, baiting him and attack. Ganon will most likely get campy because he cannot beat squirts speed, and here is when u must be a little more cautious. He seems to be a big, slow dumb guy... but squirt CANNOT endure ganons attacks. Ganon doesnt need much to kill squirt, so be carefull here when u face a campy one. Anyways, quick in and out aerials, mixed up with grabs and water gun will do the trick.

Ivysaur: Super effective
Razor leaf is ur friend. Camp, camp and camp more that ganon... grounded leaves, aerial leaves, retreating leaves, thow all kind of leaves to him, h will have a hard time dealing with them. Base all ur strategies by luring him to attack you. Try to make ganon do hasty approaches and punish them. Always keep a distance and a close eye in ganons down B, if im not mistaken, razor leaf can stop his trayectory, but anwyays keep a save distance. Ur finisher will most likely be the forward smash. Dthrow to fair works good against him, if he DIs wrongly, but i would not suggest using Uair because of that dreaded thunder drop of ganon. In short, u can keep him at distance with ivysaur and get good damage.

Charizard: slight advantage
Both are big, both are slow(well ganon is the epitome of slowness XD) and both hit hard. But charizard has the PhiRe!!!. Really, Flame thower is crucial against ganon. With his lack of good air game, and speed, flamethrower will be like his bane, specially on corners. He will have a hard time getting back to stage without sucking up a big deal of damage before he gest the edge, or even worse, get gymped by the stage corners!. Also, charizard has a good recovery which can be mixed up to prevent getting killed. Ganons has more killing options than charizard but he has to work so much for them to kick in, while charizard can rack up damage fast (since ganon is s big) and charizard also can kill!. I enjoy this fight a lot. Just as always, dont get hitted in high %, or ull die. Beware of his up air and Forward B.




BTW, this thread is a very good idea, one of the best i have seen in character discussion.

First of all; AWESOME JOB! This is a great P. Trainer project, I cannot wait to see it complete. Although it will take a very long time, so do not be hasty. Take your time with these things. I'll also add the completed version to my stickied guide, credited to you and this thread of course.



Vs. Dedede

Squirtle - Advantage
Cannot be Chaingrabbed! (**very important**)
U-Tilt/U-Air can Combo Dedede from 0 to atleast 70%
Waddle Dee's fly over Squirtle if he is Crawling
Squirtle totally annihilates Dedede's airgame (except for his B-Air)
Squirtle can put insane offensive pressure on Dedede.

Ivysaur - Neutral
Can be Chaingrabbed, but because of Ivysaur's range, should not be.
Razor Leaf goes through any Waddle Dee spam
Ivysaur completely out-ranges Dedede
Bullet Seed makes for hard-to-DI because Dedede is so huge
Dedede can still get some hits in with his F-Tilt and U-Tilt

Charizard - Disadvantage
Can be Chaingrabbed
Has a difficult time on the offensive, because of Charizards slow speed it usually results in a Shield Grab which then goes into a Chain Grab
Waddle Dee Spam forces Charizard to Approach
Dedede outranges Charizard in some aspects
Dedede also outprioritizes Charizards Aerial game.

Im down...

Sonic!

Squirtle - Neutral, Squirtles really the only one who can come close to keeping up with sonic. Squirtle can deliver some decent hits and shell shifting really helps because sonice doesnt exactly have range with his attacks. However his forward smash will **** you. Why? Cause agility pawns withdraw (yeah i said it) dont ya know.

Ivysaur - Ugly...yea you can play keep away with razor leaf but I wouldnt recomend this one. Which is a shame because ivy's my fav *sigh*

Charizard - OH BABY! Noooow were cooking. I give charizard the super effective one on this match. Charizard ***** sonic. You'd think because of sonics speed and charizards lumberingness (is that a word...?) it would be the other way around but trust me. Flamethrower stops the speed demon in his tracks and rocksmash halts/ko's any approach he's got on ya. Charizard destroys sonic in the air with his fair and nair and tilts (preferably down tilt) are the ideal edgeguard. Just play a patient charizard. Sonic isnt tough enough to dent ol chari even if he does land a hit. I stayed alive till I was up to 190 somthing. Not a hard matchup at all. Oh and best of all when sonic trys comboing using his upb spring deally....take it to em! Hop on that shiz and burninate!!

For The Pokemon Trainer

Squirtle
---------

Squirtle: Nothing to say since they are exactly the same

Ivysaur: Ahhh i love ivysaur. she has mad aerial defense skills on our little friend squirtle. she needs to stay away from squirtle by spamming her razor leaves. When squirtle does come to close, bullet seed, or D throw followed by a up air. And another factor, squirtle dies by an u smash at 36% Super effective

Charizard: Ugh. Charizard can't really hit that blue ninja because of how much that guys likes the air. We think of Charizard as a tank for most of the time correct? He is supposed to deal a lot of damage and usually KO someone right? Well Charizard Can't really hit squirtle, if he can't hit squirtle, he must have a tough time killing squirtle, he gets juggled by squirtle, and lastly, Squirtle that hydroplans kills around 70% on charizard. Not Very Effective

Ivysaur
---------

Squirtle: Man. I was once fighting an ivysaur. i was at 90% and she was at 80% Last life. I go in the air and i got SS on ivysaur's up B. that really ticked me off. Another kill she got on me was cleverly getting me off the stage at 42%, and getting a U smash on me.... Squirtle really can't do anything against ivysaur...

Ivysaur: They are the same it's Neutral

Charizard: Yes! zard has a lot of power in him. I basically Rock smash get a Down throw and then hang on the ledge and ivysaur is gone. Ivysaur can't kill as fast with her U attacks because of Zard's resistance to leaf attacks. The only positive effects for ivysaur here is that, charizard stays in the bullet seed long, and that is all. Charizard is Super effective

Charizard
-----------

Squirtle: Charizard can't really hit that blue ninja because of how much that guys likes the air. We think of Charizard as a tank for most of the time correct? He is supposed to deal a lot of damage and usually KO someone right? Well Charizard Can't really hit squirtle, if he can't hit squirtle, he must have a tough time killing squirtle, he gets juggled by squirtle, and lastly, Squirtle that hydroplans kills around 70% on charizard, yes that is very dangerous hehe SUper effective.

Ivysaur: zard has a lot of power in him. they can basically Rock smash get a Down throw and then hang on the ledge and ivysaur is gone. Ivysaur can't kill as fast with her U attacks because of Zard's resistance to leaf attacks. The only positive effects for ivysaur here is that, charizard stays in the bullet seed long, and that is all. Not effective
Charizard: THey are the same

The thread creator really needs to update this based on the info coming in. I assume we're going to use the wisdom on the masses, and go with whatever the larger public says?

My two cents:

Wario is absolutely wrecked by Squirtle, as you're faster, have almost as much aerial control, and great ways to wreck his amazing recovery. SUPER EFFECTIVE!

Ivysaur can use his Razor Leaf and grabs to keep him away, but his aerials wreck you when they start hitting. Even match.

Charizard... well Wario's just too mobile for Charizard to handle. You also lack the aerial prowress to keep up. Combine the fact that Wario is a fat ******* with a great recovery, your power doesn't have the same meaning. Not very effective...

Zard-Neutral

Squirt Neutral

IVy SE


While i'm at it I'll do Bowser(B Owser)

Squirt- Neutral. Why? Because bowser is like a trained grizzly bear, you can't ever give him control, and when he does, BAM! you go flying. Easy to Forward air. Since bowser fails in vertical revovery and since it's easy to pull of a Foot Stool with Squirt, he owns him, but if bowser hits him with like an, move he gets pwnt, and he usually stays in the fire longer

Ivy- NOt Effective. The only thing good ivy has is her B here. She can't really kill with F Smash because of bowser's weight and great horizontal recovery

Zard- Super effective. Why.... He is bowser with wings, and faster. seriously,a perfect rock smash and if you pull of either a foot stool, or a spike, you win. they both are heavy and zard attacks faster.
Learn the Foot Stool!

I managed to get a couple of matches against Diddy today. I consider the person a pretty good player, probably equal to myself considering he's had a lot of practice, I'm just decent with PT.

From what I've noticed:

Squirtle: Neutral

I opened with Squirtle, thinking that my small height and equal speed and gameplay would move the game in my favor. While I was not doing bad, myself and the Diddy player were equally matched. I seemed like I was having an upper hand for a little while, my WoP's and the like keeping him at bay.

I did KO him once before switching to Ivy.. where.. well.

Ivysaur: Super Effective

Oh baby. Ivysaur was MEAN to Diddy on my end. Every time he would try to charge at me, he would eat Razor Leaf. He goes airborne, he gets a few good air attacks and bullet seed if I timed it right. My charge attacks took mega priority on him, his light weight makes him easily slain at lower percentages by uair and up smash. When Ivysaur came out, I hit the exhaust marker and nearly took two of his lives alone.

Charizard: Not very effective...

Ugh. THIS one makes me cry a little. I won't say I'm an expert with Zard, but most of the day I'd been getting better as I played more, so I like to think I've become pretty good with him.

Every time I tried to get some form of superiority, I would get poked, WoP'd or something else. I got a good Rock Smash or Flamethrower in here or there, but other than that, really nothing I could do. I ended up switching to Squirtle before I took too much damage and finished him with a WoP.

Jeez This Joke is getting annoying to understand

ok i have got Lucario Down and i'm plannign to do the space animals next

Squirt- Not Very Effective. Jeez since Lucario has that gay guts skill, he can easily own squirtle. Squirtle is mainly about racking up damage, and lucario can use that damage against him. i mean aerial frenzy, and lucario gets a lucky Down Smash kills him

Ivy- YES, SO SUPER EFFECTIVE!!! since she can kill at low %'s Lucario has a tough time. I nearly 3 stocked a lvl 9 comp and a lucario player (i did on the player) She pretty much does the Neutral Air, If last hit doesn't hit, Bullet seed and then D throw and F air.

Zard- Neutral. This guy just well can either killing lucario or getting killed. It's just that lucario's guts gets cancled by Zard's weight, but zard does a lot of damage, so lucario can easily get to like 150, and then again Zard can kill this guy around 100%. Lucario is well a nice floaty character who can adapt to air if he needs to. just a bit confusing

Okay, I think i have the 3 space devils down

Fox
-------

Squirtle - Hmmm. Mainly The Fox's I play tend to roll dodge and get a quick smash on me. Well they can't if i fly to the sky right? Now you might be thinking that you can just do the usually aerial mauling stragety, but you forget, Fox really shines In his mighty U Smash and U air. That kinda cancels out flying to the sky so much. That means you are going to have to be grounded for a bit. Fox then WILL use his laser on you. but seeing how squirtle can crawl under his lasers gives him safe approach. Overall, I say Squirtle is Neutral

Ivysaur - Dang this is a pain. Fox just is to quick for this little defense Anti air queen. I can barely get any hits with her, but if i do i remeber to make sure it stings for life. Ivy is not to short so she can't crawl under the lasers. Also she can't razor leaf spam due to the reflector that we got standing in our way. Definetley Not Very effective.

Charizard - Ah... This is nice. I got so bored today, i played a lvl 9 fox one life on Castle siege. I 3 shoted this guy. Rock smashed him, then i D throwed him, then i just Spiked him. Fox might think that this guy is slow, and easy to his with his blaster, but they forget Zard's special, Rock smash and Earthquake (D smash). I had a friend over today and he is the roll dodge smash fox. Well he can't smash me if i E-quake right? Jeez Charizard, might take a lot of damage, but he kills fox extremley fast. If he knocks you high in the air and tries to U air you, Spike him, i'm pretty sure that your spike will hit first (or that atleast happend to me) and if that doesn't, you can spike him with your Up B (noticed that today, was pretty awesome, you got to hit them with yoru bottom). I say Super Effective


Falco
-------

Squirtle - Yippe for squirt squirt! This guy just rips our blue bird apart! Squirtle just dominates falco in the air and if played right the ground too. Squirtle has hydroplaning and of course the air. Falco can jump higher than you and most ppl kill by Spiking you down. Just cleverly avoid it, there is a bit of lag now after that spike. falco has i think the most annoying blaster. Squirtle can just crawl underneath and tada fist in falco's face. Super Effective

Ivysaur - Hmm... Well this is fun i guess. Ivysaur has her bullet seed powers against falco when he's not in the air. When Falco is in the air, she has her AA disposal ready, so i think that is a plus for her. However since she can't avoid the Lasers that is pretty annoying because it stuns you, and by the time that is done, you are already getting another one in your face. Also her Range is out matched by falco's blaster, which is already annoying enough. YOur speed is pretty much the same and falco is what i usually see a deffensive character. However, you got better killing moves. I say Neutral

Charizard - Eww... Falco just totally ***** Zard with his Laser. and if that isn't enough, he can take to the sky with his amazing spike attack. I won't lie, Charizard is pretty big and if a if falco wants to spike some big thing down, he will. Falco also has his fun in his Neutral A attack. It is hard to get a rock smash on because of well, it is jsut hard to approach this guy him being so defensive and zard being so aggressive. I say Not Very effective

Wolf
-------

Squirtle - DANGER!!! wolf has a crazy side B. If that guy SS it... Then well Squirtle will probably die around... 60-70? I really didn't pay attention to the %. Squirtle can't go under wolf's lasers, so well that is a small chunk of damage right there. Wolf will take you down if you go to the air with his side b, and then he dominates everything on the ground with his smashes. Just stay away from this guy and attack after he does his attack. This guy is Foot Stool Fodder though, Which is definitely a good thing for squirt, because he is good at Foot Stool (or for me atleast)

Ivysaur - THis is a pretty nice match up. Wolf seems like a pretty aggresive character. I was just looking over the wolf board, and everyone was complaining about how he totally gets ***** by defensive characters. Wolf is well pretty slow and then he just gets razor leafed and then you can Side step and then Forward Smash and that totally sends him flying. Wolf also has trouble latching on to the ledge. Just Up B and well you got a kill. Definitley Supper Effective

Charizard- Hmm let's see. 2 aggresive characters fighting each other. well i say it can be even. Zard has Rock Smash, wolf has his B attack. Zard has flamethrower, wolf has crazy smashes. THey both have decent spikes, and are i think around the same speed. It's fine though, you can kill him if you spike and hang on the ledge right away ( well on some dumb wolves) He is Neutral



Well that was a lot of work, i'm going to go now... Parents getting mad just barely covered wolf

EXACTELLY

Luigi:

Squirtle: Not very effective: Squirtle is an air king... so is Luigi. However Luigi's got more powerful finhishers like his up+B that sends light characters like squirtle away. And he's not easilly combo'ed by squirt.

Ivysaur: Neutral: Luigi easilly covers Ivy's range, but can't do much after that. Heavier than Squitle, Ivy doesn't fly away that much, specially aganist Luigi's up killers, but Ivy ain't got a good horizontal recovery...

Charizard: Super Effective: All Zard's combos seem to work on Luigi. His spacing is more difficult to break by a Luigi than Ivy's. Too heavy to fly away on Luigi's up+B. Easy spikes. Excellent horizontal recovery (which, BTW is a pain for a Luigi to edgeguard). Luigi is floaty enough to get KO'ed by Fly and Rock Smash.

Jigglypuff

Squirtle-Neutral: Both being great aireal characters they often will end up matching in attack. Squirtle has Waterfall to prevent air combos and water gun to disturb jiggs' recovery. Jigglypuff, on the other hand can easily sing you to slow Squirtle and then rest you away.

Ivysaur- SUPER EFFECTIVE: all special moves shut down aireal attacks and Up smash just ***** jiggs' lightweight.

Charizard- "Not very effective": Actually Zard is fairly neutral, just less neutral than squirtle. Jigglypuff can annoy you with avoiding and your large size improves her aireal accuracy. However if you somehow hit her, because of her lightweight, it it pretty much an instant K.O.



Sorry for the constant mispelling of aireal.

new update! i added in gw and lucas from my own experiences. ivysaur's leaves eat through pk fires and are quicker and more spammable, so lucas has to approach. he also can't absorb the leaves. ivysaur's nice range and ground game defeat lucas's. aerial wise you are okay, but nothing spectacular. se.

squirtle can gimp lucas's recovery easily with water gun and just simple air attacks as well. squirtle's quickness can negate some of the power lucas has, as well as being able to dodge pk fires pretty well. neutral.

charizard just gets ***** by pk fires due to his size, and lucas is quicker and quite powerful in his attacks. nve.

squirtle did pretty well against gw. gw has a great air game, but so does squirtle. you can beat him to the punch, but you have to be quick and skillful about it. on the ground, you are quick enough to rack up damage on him. se, but could be neutral.

ivy was pretty bad, actually. :s gw just ***** you in the air and with his approaches. you can razor leaf him to keep your distance and rack up damage (bucket doesn't work), but be very careful when he gets within range. however, gw is also fairly light and you can easily switch ivy in once squirtle has racked up damage to get the ko. nve in my experience.

charizard was great. rock smash rips gw apart and can work in the air against gw's attacks if you are quick and skillful about it. fair is nice too. you can toss some ft in but be VERY careful. gw can fill his bucket up in about 3 seconds if he happens to whip it out. you can flamethrower up close, but quit it if he di's to the outside. charizard's tilts have great range, so you can poke gw around a bit, and your smashes can ko gw at less than 100%, if they are fresh. se, in my experience.

Haha, it's cool

Ok Here is Snake!!

Squirtle: Hmmm... Snake has an amazing U tilt and U air. The reason why i would die to a snake player is because of that reason. Snake, is well a very hard character to play. Squirtle needs to watch out for his dangerous smash attacks, since squirtle is so light he will be blasted very early. However, i used water gun on snake in several moments. Like when snake is charging his D smash. HE slides off the place and sometimes he puts it down, but if he does, he seriously needs to watchout. Also i killed my brother by when he used his Up B and i just squirted him off the stage before he was about to land... Ahh good times. I seriously don't know what to say about this i guess, squirtle really needs to avoid the ground, which is helpful when squirts in the air This is Neutral

Ivysaur: Yes!!!! I love Ivysaur. Ivysaur just needs to counter snakes gernade frenzy with her razor leaves! They will go throw and i think if you hit them twice, they blow up, that is what i keep doing to my brother. Since ivysaur has a nice reach, she can also use her razor leaf spam powers when snake is spamming his U smash ( the rocket goes to the sky and it happens really fast, it's kinda like a wall) Snake really isn't known for his dodging skills, which is cool, snake is easy to hit, which everyone will be happy with. Snake has a great recovery, and to counter that, Uair and that is game. also as a fun fact, you can razor leaf the guided missle and it goes off track. Super Effective

Charizard: Hmmm... I have seen this go both ways. charizard can easily rock smash that soldier in the face. However, it is extremely hard for zard to dodge snakes gernade frenzy, followed up a guided Missle, who protects himself by the mines. However, snake is almost pathetic when in combat. the most useful thing he probably has that he can get down is his A combo, and also his Forward Tilt. I'll go with Neutral

Next up Samus!

Squirtle: Yippe? Squirtle can easily dodge Samus Zair because he is so short! pretty much what makes samus deadly is the Short hop missle and Zair, but mainly the zair, other wise samus is just a person with low lag that can be ripped apart by anyone. how ever if you do go in the air, make sure that it is a nice high jump, or you will be zaired in the face, and you will never like that. avoid her B (mostly found by a jab and then shot, but you can only avoid that by dodging the jab) Super Effective

Ivysaur: This is a pain a bit. The zair gets annoying for ivysaur unless you do your razor leaf spam. i don't know if you can crawl under the zair but i've never tried it out. The deadlist move that samus has against Ivysaur is probably her D Tilt. That thing will comepletly own ivysaur. When samus does do a short hop, make sure to avoid the zair with whatever method you chose and follow up by getting bullet seed on her, it's always nice for that move just to change the whole match around. This is neutral

Charizard: Hmmm this is a little confusing. Charizard owns samus in combat pratically, but that is without Zair. With Zair, charizard is a big target that gets zapped constantly. and of course, you will be jab and sent flying with her Charge up gun. charizard of course will deal a lot of damage and potentially kill, but you got to try. That zair i can't stress how annoying that thing is, and how high it can get you. just do your best to avoid the zair and you will be fine most of the time. I'm probably going to go with neutral


Lastly it is Zero Suit Samus

Squirtle: Samus has amazing U attacks. her up tilt does a nice amount of damage, her Up smash does also a nice amount of damage, her Up B does a freaking crazy amount, sends you down and she will be able to follow with another attacks. and her U air i think is a little underated, it is easily comboed. yes zamus is a little AA, But that will not stop squirtle! help is her Simple combo Dsmash + F smash or Side B. Squirtle can eaisly land attacks, which is good, unless she brings you down in the air. and also you can gimp her recovery easily which is the key to winning the fight with squirtle However, just make her fly off the stage, try to Foot stool her, and when she does her up b, do yours, if you hit her with it, she will fall off, and you will be on the ledge and there is nothing she can do about it.

Edit: I Changed Squirtle to be SE

Ivysaur: Ha, two AA players fight, it's probably going to be neutral right? well in this case it is. They both don't want to be above each other ( go away perverts...) they have a solid moveset all around. they both have tether recoveries. you have bullet seed, she has her stun blaster. All is fair right? well you actually have more range than her, but if she hits you with the tip of her Side B, yeah, that is gonna burn (pun intended)

Charizard: Rawr. Charizard can rip Zamus apart. he needs to time everything correctly against her, since she is crazy light. But Zamus is pretty fast in speed so you need to watch out for her. Charizard gets comboed eaisly, when he is in the air, and she can spam her Side B. Luckily, she doesn't have a running grab like samus, so it will stay out long and when that does you have 2 options, Rock smash, or flamethrower. also if you time close enough, you can just get your F smash on her and watch her fly. The key to this fight his to grab on the edge. Seriously Zamus fears charizard a tiny bit on the ground, Zamus has to much of a upper hand in the air. just stay away from the air. this is Neutral

Thanks for the special thanks steeler

Metaknight
-------------

Squirtle: Metaknight is known for racking up damage. He has nice air game ( N air Fair for damage, U air for comboing. his glide is also pretty strong. I'm sorry but squirtle gets owned here. metaknight attacks way to fast for squitle. he's all over him and pretty soon u are a goner. if you do hit metaknight, keep pressuring him, because when he hits you back, it will be a serious pain in the but. Not very effective

Ivysaur: Metaknight can have trouble approaching ivysaur due to her range and razor leaves. If you spam them, metaknight will probably approach with his Tornade (Neutral B) so he doesn't take damage from it. what i suggest you do is go to the edge of the map. Why? because he might either back down, or fall of the edge. Everytime Metaknight uses a special move, he will fall into free fall state that is a fact that you probably need to know since that can tell who wins the match. When metaknight does get close to you either two things will happen, you will get attacked hard, or you will do a nice dodge followed up by bullet seed. Since metaknight is light, you can smash him around 80( if you do a Uair around 60) and kill him. avoid going in the air against him, if that does happen, just do your nair or a bullet seed. However, MK really owns Ivysaur when he gets so close, he will gimp ivysaur's recovery eaisly, stated by shadow 111, just do a grab, and Dair and ivysaur is done. That really hurts ivysaur, but then again, MK is killable at 65%, this evens it out

Charizard: Charizard can have some trouble against metaknight. since metaknight is extremley fast at attacking, he will do an amazing amount of damage against zard. however, lookikng at the lightness of metaknight, if you do happen to get a forward smash, are around 80-90% you are set. the key to winning this fight is using his spacing attacks and spike. Metknight i find very, very easy to spike since he has multiple jumps, that don't go extremley high. charizard needs to avoid the air against metaknight, he will be comboed and toyed around with. I find this Neutral.

Sheik
-------

Squirtle: Sheik if Fairly a close combat character. the only ranged attacks are her Side B and B ( the chain and the darts) The Side B is plain annoying for Squirtle because he will have a hard time approaching her. how you counter it is water gun, and hope they get sprayed far away. Sheik is now a tougher character to play, with a lot of combo potential. she still has an overpowered U Smash ( did 30% to me...) and most of her attacks have more than one hit. Squirtle Doesn't really fear her that much, but she isn't something that you should get cocky over. Just pressure her with your aerial attacks and you will be good. Neutral

Ivysaur: Hmm ivysaur has a lot of trouble with shiek. Sheik can pass her defense by her quick nimble speed. Ivysaur will mainly get the hits by the razor leaf spammy, and that doesn't do that much, i really don't have that much advice, because after i lost to my sheik player, i played a lvl l9 and could barley beat her with ivysaur. Not Very effective

Charizard: Yay for zard. sheik has a tough time(well against my zard) he just needs to space and rock smash followed up by a couple flamethrowers. D throw and spike sheik down. seriously learn to use the spike!!! sheik will try her best to do damage to you but it just doesn't work, she will have tough killing you most of the time, my zard got to fautige at 169% and she still got owned. Super effective.

ok what is left is

~Link
~DK
~Captian Falcon
~Yoshi
~Ice Climbers
~Peach

I already posted. I agree except for Ivysaur who i said neutral because of the fact of Samus Damages in range, but has a hard time killing you up close. Ivysaur has a hard time to damage in far, nice game up close




Anwyay,


DK
--------

Overiview of DK: Dk is a big monster. his speed is below average, but i find it above average against the other heavy characters. His power is still strong, but he has trouble with the little attackers. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE DK

Squirtle: Squirtle is a little attacker that i was reffering to. this guy is jumping all about DK. DK gets so much damage by this little beast. However, DK has Speedy attacks compared to other heavy characters, so if he does hit you, it will leave a scar. Since squirtle doesnt have a Spike or a metor, I find it very easy to Foot Stool with him. The kills that you probably will do on DK is to Foot Stool Seriously I can't stress how much you should learn to foot stool. Just make sure this guy doesn't hit you, and you will be fine ( it is not that hard to dodge DK's Attacks. Super Effective

Ivysaur: Heh, ivysaur can have trouble against DK. Dk has a lot of strong attacks that can clamp ivysaur to death, however, i find that since DK is one of the heaviest characters, he stays in the BS for a longer time. I do around 60 damage average just by that one move on DK. DK is also a big target to hit with your U air. DK eaisly will be falling victim to Ivysaur by the Razor leaves and spacing attacks. Dk has absolutley no chance then because ivysaur has to great of a range. Just avoid letting him get near you and you bag your self a win (This still works well in Fatigue.) Super Effective

Charizard: Charizard is a lot like DK, by terms of heaviness and a quick attacker for his heavy weight class. They both I find evenly matched because of that, DK might have better smashes, but the fact is that Charizard has a way better recovery balances that out. Now when i mean better in smashes, its just slightly, This is neutral

Ugh, stupid connection, Whatever Sorry for the DP i guess i'll try to do someone, probably Yoshi Let me get the info down

Yoshi
--------

Overview: Yoshi is the most underestimated character in the game. People think that yoshi sucks and it is a very easy battle. Never think that, ever. Probably the best way to kill any yoshi is the foot stool jump


Squirtle: Ok Squirtle is probably the best vs. Yoshi. Squirtle is a monster against yoshi, kicking him around the whole stage. When the time for gimping happens, you Fair, then quickly run and get a foot stool on Yoshi after he uses his second jump. Yoshi then has no way of get a recovery what so ever. Yoshi gets dominated in the air so it is best to stay on the ground right? well yoshi can block yoru SH by his Up air, but the fact is that you have those grabs and tilts. Use what you have in your arsenal to the max, but probably not smashes. Super Effective

Ivysaur: Ivysaur is neutral: Yoshi and ivysaur i say have the same distance. Yoshi's goes farther, but way harder to control, ivysaur doesn't go as far, but it homes on the enemy a bit. yoshi has faster and better smashes than ivysaur (in my opinion for sure) yet ivysaur has bullet seed and U air. You must time correctly when you send yoshi flying. When he uses his Second jump, quickly jump and U air as fast as you can on him. that really owns him, but it gets covered by a dodge if they player is smart

Charizard: ............................... Yoshi Owns Zard pretty bad. Why? Charizard is Big, so Yoshi can Dair him, hit him with his Up B, Smashes are WAY to fast for zard, Zard has trouble spiking yoshi. I really suggest avoid yoshi, since that your SH Rock Smash approach can eaisly be owend by his UP B. SWTICH OUT! unless you really want to kill yoshi, best of by foot stooling him. Not very effective

-Link
-Ice Climbers
-Peach
-Captian Falcon

That is all that is left.

Good suggestion, I'll look into it right now.

About wave bouncing i remember how there was a topic about it, but it disapeared or something.

Edit: I Agree DK gets owned by Ivysaur. I'll edit that post as well.

And i got a surprise!!



Captain Falcon
-----------------
Overview: Captian Falcon his a lot weaker now. But that still doesn't mean he isn't a threat! With that Forward Air's Sweet Spot, i call it the Knee of Death. Also on Final Destination, He can Up The edges and eventually he will hang onto the ledge.

Squirtle: Man... Falcon has some great aerial game too, not up to par as squirtle, (slightly worse) unless you get hit by the knee of death. that thing will immediatley KILL Squirtle at 30-40% If he gets that on you, just hope it doesn't SS. Also Falcon is pretty much above you on ground game, ugh i just can't find a way to counter with squirt w/o getting Knee of Doomed.

Ivysaur: Now we are getting somewhere. Ivysaur does the best against Falcon. I looked over the falcon board and the were wondering ways to approach, everyway they found leaves them in a dangerous time. Ivysaur will never let them aproach. She has to play defensivley and use her spacing attacks to win. Seriously this is a straight forward fight, Razor Leaf spam, and own Falcon with spacing attacks. Just watch out for a Falcon Punch, that will leave a mark. Supper Effective

Charizard: Meh, Zard also needs to worry about the Knee of death a lot, but His aerial attacks and his ground attacks minimum. Charizard can bash him around until falcon goes in the air to get a few combos on you. It will work, but what goes up must come back down right? Simple, you own on the ground, he has a bit of an advantage in the air.

Ok, i went the weekend to a smash bvenue and met lots of very skilled players........ but i got information regarding 2 characters... from all the bunch i fought.. this were the ones i fought the most.

Mario: OK firstof all, this match up is very difficult for Pokemon trainer. I fought against a campy mario who was very good at meele combat. Mario has IMO better melle combat than any of your pokes, his proyectile game is more or less on par with ivy, but squirt and char succumb against this. And even ivy has it tough because of the cape. but well lets go:

Squirtle:: NeutralWell, squirtle can combo him a little.... but geez... ,Mario is so difficult to fight. He almost always puts u on the offensive. From the 3 pokemons, squirt is the one who can face him better on one on one, because u have quick aerials.... but still is not easy. His smashes are good,,, and gosh, mario can combo. My advice would be to play on the line of his fireballs and try to lure him with Water gun.Lately i have noticed how underrated watrer gun is. yeah is not the next best thing but in this kind of fights, this can be handy. In previous posts i said how good is this attack to gimp who are coing to the stage, but in this fight agaionst mario , you can use this to change his position. If Mario wants to play it safe, he will try to lure you with fireballs, but if u time it well, you can unleas the waterball and move him out of his campy position. Sometimes ull force him to edgehog, and even when this doesnt change much the battle, it forces him to reacomodate and from this point you can try to get close to him.

Ivysaur: Neutral
Ok, even when i say is neutral, i still say that mario has the upper hand here, but not by much. The key is to not let him get close to you too oftenly. He can combo , and will punish you everytime he gets on range. Ull have to play intelligenttly with ur leaves because he can turn them back to you, and his spam game is also good. As always, try to get to him with back airs... this attack can accurately destroy his fireballs and also hit him. remember that mario doesnt have good range, so using this attack for spacing is crucial. Ur Ftilt could be of good use in case he gets to be in front of you but at a moderate distance. In case of being comboed, try to lure him to miss an attack or hit ur shield, and bullet seed right away. he is small so it will not be easy to get him on it... but when u do.. im very sure he will think twice in going gung ho against you.. From the 3 pokes, Ivisaur is the one who can dish out damage faster and IMO is the best when trying to go out and klill people. U will have to use whatever u have at your disposal to kill. Dont be shy and go out. Ivysaur can suprisingly do a lot of attacks outside the stage and come back, most people dont expect this.


Charizard: Neutral
Oh, poor charizard...... from the 3, with him was the one i had the most difficult time. Dont get me wrong, he can hit mario, and hit him hard, his flamthower is godly as always but , well what can i say, Mario and his fireballs are a pain... but the worst is a combo he has on charizard. IM not sure if this cmbo is unavoidable, but i was caught twice on it and it was not funny. Mario can combo charizard with short hopped Up airs across final destination. I tried to dodge the attacks but they were so quick that zard was not able to go out of his flinch animation, and since he is the big pinhata pokemon,,, is even harder to dodge. U can dish very good damage on him, but just dont get caught on this... ull pay dearly. Try to catch mario with ur flame thrower, play very defensive when he comes near to you and do your best to avoid fireballs. :S
I also saw comments regarding mario in the thread, but im veru sure is not as easya s some put it here, unless they have fought careless marios. Charizard can fight mario on melee battle, but mario can put as much damage in the same way. The combo i mentioned earlier is not easy to DI out, and his fireball game can be annoying. Definitely not a walk in the park.

Ok, the analyzes that were missing:

NESS:
Some weeks ago, i posted a thread about how i could deal with ness... well now i have more experience against the little fella...so here we go.

First some points that need to be adressed:
1-Ness danger zone: It seems this is vital for ness users. Ness doesnt have too many KO moves, and apart from the bat and the vicious back air..... his main ko MOve is his dreaded back throw. Everytime you get around 120% more or less, be ready because a grab will come. If the Ness player know what he is doing, he will save his throw for that precise moment.... so be ready when this happens ....mindgames. Ull get caught sooner or later, but try to use this to your advantage.

2-PK Fire: It ***** ivysaur and charizard!!! evade it at all costs!. It traps those 2 pokemon very easy, leaving you open for...anything, including more fires.

3-Ness Fair and dash attack: Stay away from them!! and dont try to shieldgrab him once the animation of the fair ends.. ness can do his triple jab combo faster than ur grab.

Squirtle: Slightly effective
The turtle boy can effectively face Ness, but u need to be cautious. U cant fight against his fair, none of the 3 pokes can outprioritize the fair, ull at least hit and get hitted, and thats not always. Use baits, make him use his fair, roll, mix it up. Save ur downthrow for the 130-140%... if u connect it, its a safe kill. When he is out.... make sure u take his second jump out and load a watergun(if u have not charged it already which is better), it can gimp horridbly his recovery if one of the water burst hit his pk thunder. A good move would be to hit his shield with fair and right away use ur triple jab combo... most of the time u can catch him off guard. Use ur triple jab in general(is slightly better than his), it works very good against him when both are on ground. Is not an easy battle but squirt can really do it. Beware of ur recover and his down air... it ***** squirts upB recover is u are fram form teh stage. Once he gets u in this situation u are practically death.

Ivysaur: Effective
Well, ivysaur can make lots of damage to ness. Ull be safe as long as u stay awayr from his fair and dash attack... and the pk fire. Those 3 moves are ur bane...and can juggle you like crazy. Stay just away... mix ur razor leaves with some back airs and in case of him closing in...retreat. If u feel confident enough, lure him into some bullet seeds. Be cautious with ur grab, is very slow and he can efficiently cancel it with his jab combo. Ull have to mindgame some grabs if u wanna get him. The downt tilt works wonders because is very fast, and u need fast attacks against ness. Fair is good and all but he can roll and punish in case of u failing to connect. When ness is out and without jumps.... razor leaf him, go outside iof he is not so far away... mix it up. He has difficult time recovering if u change his position with a blow. He dies rather quick with up airs and the up smash just *****... but is very difficult to connect.


Charizard: slightDisadvantage
Ok, Ness is qucik for charizard and his fair and pk fire just ***** you. Still, rock smash and the rest of the things can indeed kill him fast. This battle, you must be very very defensive... approaching with cautious. This time ur flame thower can be a good aid, or ur worst mistake if timed badly. His PK forceshield absorbs % like crazyt his time....and if u hit it with ur FT, thats it... ull waste all the precious %. What u can do is get him in the first FT...and then throw some in the air...to make him think ull go with one....and then grab him or something when he puts his shield. Is all mindgames there. Ur triple jab combo can effectively take him out of range, and ur down tilt and ftilt are good also. When he is oustide, well i dont try to go out because of char´s slowness and one miscalculated move and BAM ull eat his pk crusher entirely. IM not too gifted with charizard outside the stage, so my best advice would be to try to KO him witha siongle blow instead of edguard him. Flame throwers on edges can be good sometimes because if he calculates wrongly his sweespotting with his pk crusher.... u can get him before he touches the edge.
Overall, Ness will be all over you and run circles before u can land a hit considerably strong to kill him. U must be patient and try to at least damage him as much as u can before changing pokes. Sometimes is a good idea to do a quick change for squirtle, if u seee that u cant land that final blow. Use ur downthrow and he will be dead.

 

[fire_wulf]

^^^^^.... WOw...Haha.. that is good. You know.. thanks for doing so much work... i would love to see all of that analysis on the front page as well... give a little reference while looking at the chart

 

[Steeler]

dayum that's a lot of work haha. thank you feardragon. I think I could add part of it to the first post and the rest in the second. I'll do that when I update next.

Which should be right now in a few minutes. :D

I think a good way to structure the analyses would be how each Poke's main strategies fair against that opponent (Squirtle's WoP and aerial approach, Ivysaur's camping, Charizard's...ground game and spacing) and that other character's main strategies and how they work as well. That'd be detailed and very informative, telling you what to look out for and what you can and can't do effectively.

That'd take a lot of work and is something we'd need to have a lot of people voice their input into...which works great with the one a week idea. Maybe we can make it two per week to speed the process up.

I think what would be nice is to first get an analysis of each Pokemon and how you should play them, their strengths and weaknesses, stuff like that. It'll lay the groundwork for analyzing all the other characters and let everyone see what we need to address in the analysis.

 

[Steeler]

alright, edited fox data thanks to card.

i finally got the opportunity of fighting a good fox (about 50 times...haha) that knows how to dair into move, etc. charizard got his *** kicked most of the time. :\ fox is just way to fast for poor zard, dairs really eat right through him. you can play a spacing game if you like, dtilt and flamethrower or something, and make sure to use your fair to gimp fox as he comes back to the stage, if you are quick enough to get there before he illusions or as he charges his fire fox. also laser ****. but zard's best use is to switch from ivy once he has a lot of damage, so you can skip right to squirtle when you die right after dair to usmash!

squirtle would really just depend on how i was playing. i was able to ko this guy with 0% once, on fairs and nairs and such into jabs and ftilts. utilt is also great when fox has little to no damage, i was able to pull five off in a row on two seperate occasions with no problem, for 35%~ damage. but at times fox would dair me to hell...so this is the definition of neutral. no clear advantage, it depends on player skill. a special note DON'T GET ****ED BY USMASH. seriously that move will always kill you at around 100%, and it's ridiculously easy for him to hit you with it after a dair. so be aware of that.

ivysaur is great. :] this is just this particular fox, but he wouldn't use his reflector much. now i'm not saying you can flat out camp on him, as you can just get lasered in return, but you can mix it in as he approaches to mess him up. your range is a godsend. fsmash or shieldgrab if he wants to run at you to dash attack or usmash. as soon as i knew he was a fox guy, i thought of what card said regarding bullet seed ****** most of his approaches. I tried to work it in when he'd dair, but i just wasn't that skillful at it yet. i suppose you need to do it as soon as he lands before he attacks or after that attack...but sometimes that attack will shieldpush you too far to really use it. oh well, i can see what card was saying though, if i were more able, bullet seed would have laughed at fox. regardless, i was still pretty successful in avoiding the attack or only getting hit a little by drill kick, so i wouldn't get usmashed to hell. fox has a lot of trouble approaching on the ground though...your grab has some great range.

so yeah, basically affirming what card said.

edited ness from what hydde said, i used neutral for squirtle's slight advantage as i thought that'd be less misleading than a super effective. also ness can bat away your razor leaves haha, so be aware of that.

the squirtle neutral against pikachu thing was my fault, sorry. i just made a dumb assumption without having faced anyone. but it's fixed now! and that's what the thread is about. i'm not really that sure about zard being se...he's huge. :| sounds like pika **** to me, but alright. sure zard can kill pretty early, but good luck getting that finishing blow in...dtilt sounds like it would be very effective though, assuming it's fresh. which i doubt since it could be pretty useful to poke and such.

i'm sure everyone's okay with a double post in exchange for an update, right?

i'd like to get the one a week thing started soon. but first, any character you all want to cover first? we'll just handle the one with the most support, as we'll have to get through everyone anyway.

 

[feardragon64]

As a suggestion for the order in which you cover characters, why don't you go from the most heated discussions of characters to least(i.e. where people argue the most). This keeps the thread active and will hopefully bring the attention of more people who will want to contribute to it.

Also, since we all know there's more than one way to play a character(for example from this thread, there was a discussion of a campy olimar vs. an aggressive one) it might be worth your while to make subdivisions for different play styles if anyone suggests it(but this would require people to make note to the play style of the character they're analyzing)

 

[Steeler]

well, i think we could address that in the analysis of each character. i think olimar may be the only character who's counter differs that greatly from playstyle to playstyle.

we could just go with the most popular one for the chart but make sure to make special note of any differences in the analysis.

 

[infernovia]

I think what would be nice is to first get an analysis of each Pokemon and how you should play them, their strengths and weaknesses, stuff like that. It'll lay the groundwork for analyzing all the other characters and let everyone see what we need to address in the analysis.

Card seriously has a good guide that already addresses most of squirtle's game. PopeOfChilliTown if you need Ivysaur and charizard. Vercuz has a pretty decent charizard video thread, although he loses a lot. I am pretty sure links to that should be enough, unless you already have people working in the guidefor you.

dayum that's a lot of work haha. thank you feardragon. I think I could add part of it to the first post and the rest in the second. I'll do that when I update next.

Not necessary to quote. It might be better if you delete a lot of the text and link to each specific post.

For example if I just click on the little arrow by the first quote by feardragon I get this link:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4170998#post4170998

If you use that as a hyperlink, it will make things simple and concise and remove repeatable information. This might save you some space.

Although, ultimately, a copy and paste would probably be easier.

 

[Hydde]

An update:
I said before that Charizard was neutral against Olimar..... after more testing... he is indeed "effective".
Fthower and rock smashes protects you so much against him, if u keep a good distance and do them carefully.

thats it for now