please desticky and replace with new thread. link to new thread in OP if needed

[Demenise]

Can someone explain to me how Squirtle has an advantage against Wario? Wario is more manuverable in the air, can KO Squirtle easily, can avoid gimping if played correctly, and stops nearly all of Squirtle's approaches with the Chomp. The only thing that Squirtle has over him, I'd think, is range. Otherwise, Wario has a superior air game, ground game, and (possibly) off stage game.

 

[Icelement]

Can someone explain to me how Squirtle has an advantage against Wario? Wario is more manuverable in the air, can KO Squirtle easily, can avoid gimping if played correctly, and stops nearly all of Squirtle's approaches with the Chomp. The only thing that Squirtle has over him, I'd think, is range. Otherwise, Wario has a superior air game, ground game, and (possibly) off stage game.

I agree completely. I've heard people call Squirtle a lesser copy of Wario, and I actually started thinking it's true. I've fought my fair share of Warios, (and boy do I hate the character and everything about him) and he really outshines Squirtle in nearly every way. Air game, ground game, recovery- yes recovery. His jumps are a little shorter than Squirtle, but his Bike gives him another jump, which is larger than Squirtle's up-b. It's sad, but true. T_T

 

[Hydde]

Warios Fsmash is annoying as hell...specially when ur opponents knows how to exploit the super armor frames..

very tricky to fight in close combat.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I agree with Ice Element, Wario blows Squirtle out of the water, no pun intended.

 

[Demenise]

I'd have to say, in all honesty:

Wario

Squirtle: Wario is, basically, a stronger, more manuverable, heavier, better-at-killing version of Squirtle. Squirtle's at either a disadvantage or major disadvantage (because of range, I'm thinking just disadvantage, but this is debatable.)

Ivysaur: Ivysaur has a giant range advantage over Wario. She's also a great anti-air character, and Wario loves spending time in the air. They both rack up damage quickly against each other quite well. However, Wario has no trouble getting Ivy off of the edge, and once off of the edge, is excellent at gimping. I'd say, because of that, neutral.

Charizard: Charizard is big. Wario has no trouble racking up damage. Considering his aerial manuverability, he's also good at dodging Charizard's attacks and retaliating. Zard definitely has a range advantage, though. Charizard and Wario are both able to gimp each other if played right when fighting off-stage. Overall, I think that Wario has the advantage.

 

[Brinzy]

Alright, your chart places Ness as neutral vs. Squirtle, but the big chart by IvanEva has it as Squirtle at an advantage.

So to start, could someone list Squirtle's main strengths vs. Ness?

 

[Onxy]

Ivan's chart just keeps looking worse everytime I look at it.

 

[infernovia]

This video seems to disagree with the pikachu matchup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xkH90auV-s

Anther is the best Pika, arguably.

 

[Retro Gaming]

What's with the Charizard using Fsmash so often?

 

[infernovia]

I am not sure.

On a secondary note, PT has grab-release infinite on Ness which gives the match an advantage. Here its considered neutral because we really haven't updated that info.

 

[Hydde]

Well, before i thought that ness had an advantage over pT...but now i disagree.
Charizard has some issues against ness...as he is huge , his fire can be absorbed, PK fire owns him and ness has a good aerialgame with his annoying fair..... but..... I think that a charizard, played defensively and cautiously, can fight very even against ness. The move that turns this fight a lot to zard´s side, is his ugly chaingrab against ness... exploit it as much as u can to frustrate ur enemy.... Ness doesnt endure hard hits so some good smashes and he will be dead soon. also exploit ur range with ur ftilt and dtilt. Avoid aerial battles .

Squirrt can be countered by some attacks of ness...for example.... u cant mess with his Fair...and his up and down smashes, they will be like a wall against squirt...so mindlessly aerial assaults are not the way against ness. But squirt IMO is the only one ofthe 3 who can fight on par against Ness´s triple jab combo which is annoying as hell when is followed after his fair. Ur triple jab can win in close combat and also u have the gimping opportunities with water gun. If the Ness mistimes or just does wrongly his recover...u must always have a water gun charged to try to gimp him. and ness is small so u can downthrow him in the 130%s with high percentage of killing him. Stay away from his backthrow...squirt will die.

With ivysaur..... just try to play away from the air...and if u are airborne, just use ur back air,,which isthe only aerial who can win against his fair. PK fire eats ivy...and even worse...sometimes it sets ivy for his nasty forward smash. Up air and up smash kill ness very early...if connected that is


Overall, a well defensively played PT can win this battle and with good chances.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

I'm pretty sure this has been posted already, but there is NO WAY Squirtle has an advantage over DDD. A defensive DDD can just force Squirtle to approach with Waddle Dee spam, but the thing is, Squirtle can't approach DDD at all. Seriously. DDD can just abuse his hammer's insane range and priority, and shield grab Squirtle as soon as he gets close.

DDD also kills Squirtle incredibly early either by using any of his moves other than his jab or ftilt and can gimp Squirtle's recovery quite easily. On the other hand, Squirtle can't kill DDD until extremely high percentages, and the only thing Squirtle has against DDD's recovery is Water Gun.

Seriously, was Squirtle deemed a good matchup for DDD just because "omg he can't be chaingrabbed"?

 

[Demenise]

I'm pretty sure this has been posted already, but there is NO WAY Squirtle has an advantage over DDD. A defensive DDD can just force Squirtle to approach with Waddle Dee spam, but the thing is, Squirtle can't approach DDD at all. Seriously. DDD can just abuse his hammer's insane range and priority, and shield grab Squirtle as soon as he gets close.

DDD also kills Squirtle incredibly early either by using any of his moves other than his jab or ftilt and can gimp Squirtle's recovery quite easily. On the other hand, Squirtle can't kill DDD until extremely high percentages, and the only thing Squirtle has against DDD's recovery is Water Gun.

Seriously, was Squirtle deemed a good matchup for DDD just because "omg he can't be chaingrabbed"?

This list was last seriously updated long ago when everyone thought that Squirtle was a god, I'm thinking, and when he was treated like a faster Melee Jigglypuff. Still, it's totally misinforming.

 

[leelue]

Well I for one Main Rob as well as others, but i can definitely tell you you don't want Ivy or The Lizard out against him. One attack that leads off stage and smart edgegaurding and thats one dead Ivysaur. Charizard just has problems with Ftilts and Fairs and the Spamminess, and his rocks dont mean a whole lot since my Fair and Bairs come out so fast.

And when above, charizard doesn't have a lot of leeway around the deadly Nair. Just sayin it might add a little to ur chart over there.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Look, no offense, but we pretty much get that from every other character board. We're in the process of revising these match-ups anyway, but we've only gotten through so many of them so far. ROB will come soon enough, he's a pretty big character right now.

 

[Timbers]

Just a tip on the chart, you guys might want to mark all your undiscussed matches on the chart in some form of "to-be-discussed", using a dull color signifying that there's no verdict on the matchup yet. I respect that you guys are trying to work it out, but any random board lurker (such as myself) will take a look at that chart and raise their eyebrow a few times.

It's just a suggestion, but in doing so, you won't get any complaints on the matchups and not have any proof or reasoning as to why you'd list a character matchup as such.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I wish Steeler was around to do such a thing; I agree.

 

[Timbers]

If your matchup thread creator is missing, you might want to remake the matchup thread and ask a mod to sticky the new one in this one's place.

Just a suggestion >_> If he's really left you guys then you can't exactly update this thread any, and it doesn't do any future PTs any good.

 

[Onxy]

Seriously.

 

[Steeler]

yeah, seriously.

well, the computer that file is saved on is pretty busted right now, i'll see what i can do in the meantime.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Save picture as on whatever computer your using now, shade undiscussed match-ups, add note about that, call it a day.

Unless you're using the Wiiternets.

 

[Fearmy]

oh btw, i think i would like to make a change for Ivysaur vs Squirtle. Had not really thought about it, but Ivysaur has a tough time hitting Squirtle, BS does like 13% and Razor Leaf can be easily Evaded by Squirtle. The only thing that would help is B-air, and still that's nothing compared to the damage that squirtle will do to ivysaur. Ivysaur is meant more to kill squirtle instead of damaging squirtle, so i would think to make this into a Neutral

 

[Steeler]

bair completely shuts down ANY aerial approach squirtle could even attempt. same goes for ftilt/dtilt/grab on the ground, plus shellshifts and the like.

besides, you use razor leaf to screw with squirtle's approach, thus allowing you to tilt him away or even sneak an fsmash in there.

retro i'll try that, paint just pisses me off with all the crap it does (and can't do)

 

[Fearmy]

bair completely shuts down ANY aerial approach squirtle could even attempt. same goes for ftilt/dtilt/grab on the ground, plus shellshifts and the like.

besides, you use razor leaf to screw with squirtle's approach, thus allowing you to tilt him away or even sneak an fsmash in there.

retro i'll try that, paint just pisses me off with all the crap it does (and can't do)

uhhh.... i play a PT much smarter then that 0.0 He quickly Lands when i DO Bair, and when i go to the tilts, he's already Back in the air Pummeling me

 

[Timbers]

>_>

 

[Steeler]

dude bair so outrageously ***** squirtle's range, that as long as ivy is spaced decently so you hit with the last...third of the vines, squirtle won't do much whether he lands right after or not. and you can time bair to hit squirtle on the ground, if that becomes a problem. bair doesn't have much landing lag so that shouldn't be an issue.

naturally if squirtle does get inside, ivysaur's horrible horizontal air speed will make it tough to escape squirtle's wrath. but ivysaur has a lot of tools at its disposal that should make it very very difficult for squirtle to even get that opportunity.

i'd like to, in retrospect, change squirtle v meta to slight disadvantage squirtle. squirtle can indeed interrupt mk with his slightly quicker attacks, but mk's attacks are not THAT much slower than squirtle's. :\ both are light, both can ko each other, so that point is null. but mk completely dominates off stage whether he's is edgeguarding or squirtle is, for some reason, going out there and trying to edgeguard himself.

the main argument for squirtle being neutral was how quick it was and it's decent range, but mk has a better version of squirtle's ftilt with his own dtilt.

i think playing more defensively is best for either character because both have quick attacks that can interrupt and punish anything, along with decent grabs. if mk plays defensively, he can just wait to dtilt/ftilt almost anything on the ground, and fair away in advance squirtle's aerial approaches. plus mach tornado takes advantage of any openings...

EDIT

lolz i was just about to finish up my edit with at least snake and maybe falco. should i just gray out all the other matchups? i kinda want to...most of those matchups were just someone making a statement after playing a human once or playing the computer a few times. :\

DOUBLE EDIT

i really want to make charizard vs meta neutral. i mean, meta is better than marth and punishes/strings attacks/OUTRANGES zard better than marth can. plus one of the main points for zard against marth was that he could be easily edgeguarded. YOU CANNOT EDGEGUARD METAKNIGHT.

zard makes up for it by killing at pretty low percents, but still. it's at least neutral. maybe slight 45-55 disadvantage.