metaXzero
Smash Champion
That should be proven with match results and vids to be gamebreakingly broken, NOT assumption.
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Play with Honor , Make Brawl Fun - With Some Thoughts from Mew2King
- Thread starter z3r0C0oL
- Start date
Frogsterking
Smash Journeyman
So you think that MK would just get substantially stronger, not game-breakingly stronger?
Even if it doesn't *technically* break the game, MK was almost banned, and you think he should be allowed to use a character-specific glitch that lets him turn invincible at will!?
Even if it IS proven to be nongame-breaking, you won't be doing anyone any favors; people want to see MK get weaker not stronger.
chic
Smash Ace
look at all the snake and mk mains!
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
This is a big deal how?
I can just keep caping and it wouldn't mean anything.
or I can just cape to the ledge if I get bored.
Its great you know where I am, but means little if you can't do anything about it.
Opinion<fact.
I am not going to bother searching through the MK boards.
Link please.
The primary reason it was banned is because there is no way to prove that the opponent was stalling.
PlayerA: HE'S STALLING!
Player B: No I am not I just did the cape.
Not just because it could be used for stalling.
Cha0tic NiGhTmArE
Smash Journeyman
snakes not even bad to play..hes totally legit now MK on the other hand is pretty broken
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Who cares if its a glitch? Its part of the game and it has yet tp be proven as broken besides stalling.
Or are we going to ban future ATs and tricks discovered for MK?
Cha0tic NiGhTmArE
Smash Journeyman
hate to say it but yeah probably..
It's too time consuming and manpower consuming to police. We'd need stopwatches to differentiate between what constitutes stalling and what doesn't, even if we put arbitrary time limits on it.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
For my proposal and other IDC discussion...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182532&page=102
Go and refute....
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182532&page=102
Go and refute....
Cha0tic NiGhTmArE
Smash Journeyman
i just wish more people saw spamming and that sorta thing more like a challenge to find a way to beat it and not just throw in the towel cause they think thats the only way to play the game..if you think that your wrong
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Refute what exactly? None of what you stated even addresses what I have stated.
How are you going to have the ability to monitor the IDC?
How will you dictate how long it can be allowed before being considered stalling?
Oh and just to toss somehing at you, Akuma was out int he U.S. for 9 months before he was banned,. he didn't have much of a chance to show his brokenness before he ws banned.
Results do aid in proving something but they are not the major factor in justifying what is or is not banned.
This also occurred with Konami banning the Red eyes Darkness metal Dragon Card.
How are you going to have the ability to monitor the IDC?
How will you dictate how long it can be allowed before being considered stalling?
Oh and just to toss somehing at you, Akuma was out int he U.S. for 9 months before he was banned,. he didn't have much of a chance to show his brokenness before he ws banned.
Results do aid in proving something but they are not the major factor in justifying what is or is not banned.
This also occurred with Konami banning the Red eyes Darkness metal Dragon Card.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
You didn't even read my proposal? Its on that page I linked!
9 months is better then barely a month lol. And really, wasn't it Akuma's air fireball that gave him like 9:1 advantage over most characters the reason for his banning?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Dude no, again you fail to address the fact that there is NO WAY to monitor the IDC. It requires a referee at the match at ALL times.
It wasn't just Akuma's air fireball. The air fireball was part of what made Akuma so incredible but it was also many tihngs as well.
Evenif you ignored the air fireball Akuma had MANY things that attributed to him being broken.
Can we please take this to the appropriate thread?
Cha0tic NiGhTmArE
Smash Journeyman
thats what im thinkin
chic
Smash Ace
snakes utilt? :D
but mk is much worse
but mk is much worse
GofG
Smash Champion
Puffball64, if only you were right. Playing Brawl is like playing Jiggly dittos in melee. No combos, everything is just floaty, randomly thrown out attacks are all that hit, everyone recovers from everything, stage positioning doesn't matter... not at all in the heart of Smash.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Quoting M2K's proposal to ban planking and then use that logic to attack camping, infinites, and broken characters doesn't really add up. Honestly, (and no I haven't talked personally to him but he's said things like this often enough) M2K has more "Honor" in smash than most smashers particularly new age Brawlers but, he'd much rather play Melee than Brawl. He plays Brawl for the money, for the scene, and because he hopes Melee will continue to grow in popularity again.
So despite his distaste for camping, infinites, etc. its what wins while still being competitive. I'm guessing here but I'd wager his and my solution is to play Melee if you want competition. Theres very little discussion about banning anything there. If you want to avoid camping and infinites and still play Brawl then play MK. No real counters and no infinites (that I can think of) and no one really can camp him. Maybe once everyone gets sick of MK dittos we can move on (or back).
Unless you ban infinites and camping, which are the most advanced and competitve tactics we've found, people will keep using them.
So despite his distaste for camping, infinites, etc. its what wins while still being competitive. I'm guessing here but I'd wager his and my solution is to play Melee if you want competition. Theres very little discussion about banning anything there. If you want to avoid camping and infinites and still play Brawl then play MK. No real counters and no infinites (that I can think of) and no one really can camp him. Maybe once everyone gets sick of MK dittos we can move on (or back).
Unless you ban infinites and camping, which are the most advanced and competitve tactics we've found, people will keep using them.
streetracr77
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2008
- Messages
- 488
Brawl will never be as competitive as Melee.
Banning infinites and camping wouldn't solve that problem.
Banning infinites and camping wouldn't solve that problem.
Just asking as a favor, please keep the '64' bit out. I only did that because some jerk who signed up as Puffball (and doesn't even participate in Smashboards mind you, with his <10 posts), and so I had to use numbers.
I disagree though. Combo's may not "exist", but strings are still possible. It all depends on your analysis of your opponents actions, and what techniques you do to continuously build up damage and keep pressure on your opponent.
I do agree on everything being a bit floaty.
Randomly throwing out attacks is one of the worst things to do in Brawl, as anyone competent will punish you hard. It's quite the inverse of what you said.
Unless you're Meta Knight.
Not all characters can always recover. Besides, that's what edge games are for, to prevent recovery.
I'm not even going to mess with the last two statements, except for this:
I disagree.
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Unless you were being sarcastic.
Oh, and to clarify my bias, I actually enjoyed Jiggz dittos in Melee. They were very intense and took accurate precision to gain an upperhand.
8AngeL8
Smash Lord
The whole "there are no combos in Brawl" thing only applied when we were starting the game. We're starting to find some actual strings and combos.
Yeah, no combos like in Melee, but there are combos.
Yeah, no combos like in Melee, but there are combos.
GofG
Smash Champion
There were combos in Melee as soon as the game came out. 
Woozle
Smash Journeyman
Lies, ****ed lies.Elitists said:
Why would that be true? How could that be true?
Brawl will never be as fast as Melee.
Brawl will never be as combo-friendly as Melee.
But all that means is that Brawl will never be Melee.
Melee is competitive.
Brawl is not Melee.
Brawl in not competitive.
A is B.
C is not A.
C is not B.
Denying the antecedent. Logical fallacy.
Anther
Smash Champion
hehe *******s.
hehe squirrels are friends
Calixto
Smash Apprentice
Problem is, most tourney goers are much more willing to win using some infinite or somesuch and then wave their engorged video-game-e-peen than win with any sort of honor.
You spend so much time playing to win, that winning is the only way to justify the time you spent on this game. If you have to win using an infinite or stalling or what have you, that's perfectly fine, as long as they can think to themselves "I'm special, I'm good at this game." Anything to boost their little egos.
The general over arching philosophy for honor and banning should be (and I'll water it down here because I know some of you don't like fancy words with silent letters) this:
Don't Be A ****.
When you 0 to death grab someone, infinite or 100% CG combo, are you being a ****? Yes.
When you stall the game out so you win, are you being a ****? Yes.
When you are johning about whatever, are you being a ****? Yes.
You spend so much time playing to win, that winning is the only way to justify the time you spent on this game. If you have to win using an infinite or stalling or what have you, that's perfectly fine, as long as they can think to themselves "I'm special, I'm good at this game." Anything to boost their little egos.
The general over arching philosophy for honor and banning should be (and I'll water it down here because I know some of you don't like fancy words with silent letters) this:
Don't Be A ****.
When you 0 to death grab someone, infinite or 100% CG combo, are you being a ****? Yes.
When you stall the game out so you win, are you being a ****? Yes.
When you are johning about whatever, are you being a ****? Yes.
You already admit Brawl is not Melee. Thus, they are not the same game, thus, one game can be less Competitive than the other.
Woozle
Smash Journeyman
Yeah.
It can be.
Just like soccer can be less competitive than football.
Doesn't mean it is, or will be.
The user you quoted did not lie. He stated a prediction/assumption. It was not a lie, it was an assumption which is yet to be proven entirely true or false.
just to adress IDC as it relates to this topic, it's banned for the same reason that Peach's wall bomber, orjigglypuff's rising pound stall was banned:
It allows you to stall the match indefinately, without being able to be punished/countered unless you use the same character, and tactic.
Planking is more along the lines of shino stalling, where shiek would repeatedly drop from the ledge, up B upwards, and then back down to autoregrab the ledge. It's scary, and a better ledgecamp technique than most people have, but it isn't unbeatable, and certainly shouldn't be banned.
It allows you to stall the match indefinately, without being able to be punished/countered unless you use the same character, and tactic.
Planking is more along the lines of shino stalling, where shiek would repeatedly drop from the ledge, up B upwards, and then back down to autoregrab the ledge. It's scary, and a better ledgecamp technique than most people have, but it isn't unbeatable, and certainly shouldn't be banned.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
One game being less competitive than another doesn't make that game uncompetitive. It makes it less competitive.
Woozle
Smash Journeyman
It doesn't matter whether the statement is true or false, his argument cannot be valid, or even strong, because it is a logical fallacy.
If his argument was, say:
It might be stronger.
As far as his single statement goes, it's true that it has no truth value. But if it has no truth value, it cannot be used as anything as far as an argument goes.
It would be like using "Is there a tree?"
EDIT::
Also, it would actually be the case that most arguments involving Melee and Brawl and their competitiveness are rather weak since:
X) X is a characteristic (wave-dashing/combos/etc)
C) The game is competitive.
If X, then C.
Saying Melee has any X is sufficient to saying it is competitive.
However, saying not X does NOT mean not C.
It's sufficient, but not necessary (Denying the antecedent again, by the way)
Guys, you need to give brawl time. The whole "combos dun exist" thing is completely false. Yes, in brawl, you don't go from 0-80% without being able to do anything, but you can go from 0-40% (without CG's) on many characters. The combo's in brawl aren't elaborate or 0-deaths, but they do exist. Give this *new* game time. People complained about it not being technical, but there have been tons of advanced techniques discovered so far, and even more character specific AT's. Just give brawl time to develop and evolve.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
It doesn't need nearly as much time as Melee did, or almost any other game for that matter. Brawl has a developed community that has committed since day ONE (and even before then) to finding ATs, strategies, etc.
The chance of Brawl seeing a dramatic change in the meta game at this point is extremely low.
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
This makes sense.
True. True.
No.
I just don't get this. I find these CGs thrilling to watch. I even feel honored to be attacked with them. Hmm. . . maybe that's something to investigate as a factor of what's "lame" - what an audience can potentially enjoy watching.
The D3 infinites are the only exception (to being thrilling). But they don't work on everyone. So it's like "eat mah hard counter, n00b," however shamed and marginalized that makes really good DK/Mario/Luigi players.
It's how the game is. We have to deal.
(now, I haven't voted, because there's some research being done on what the D3 infinite is, mechanically, and it's very interesting and could reveal something germane to this debate).
*~*~*~
Ledgecamping in all forms that are stalling should be banned - for just that reason. They are stalling. Hanging out by the ledge using Vanish to extend your invincibility does nothing to bring the game to a close. You are specifically taking advantage of the timer, which is an insult both to your opponent and your gracious tournament hosts. Games are played as both players seek to win, not to "not lose."
You can be permitted to 'filibuster' only as long as some other changing condition. . . hasn't changed yet (e.g., stage transformation, opponent is in freefall, opponent is using Volcano Kick), and that must stop before a cycle comes around (for stage transformations), or the change completes. Nothing else.
There are issues ruling this with Pokemon Trainer though. **** fatigue.
Nitrix
Smash Ace
If the chaingrab is banned, then people will try to find a way around it. If it isn't banned, then people will use it and beat the people who don't use the best stratagies. Playing with "honour" will simply result in losing to those who don't have it. Competitive gaming is only about one thing: winning.
Furthermore, people that "play to win" don't beat up their oponents in real-life. I hope you weren't serious when you typed that.
Yes, this was the argument, that "Brawl will never be as Competitive as Melee". Woozle claim this was the argument of the "Elitists", I refuted this. Not once was it mentioned that Brawl can't eve be Competitive.
I suggest you not jump into the middle of a conversation and make stuff up in your head.
I'm slightly confused as to whether Elitists is an actual person or your lumping together of anyone who argues Brawl isn't/can never be as Competitive as Melee.
If it's the former, how could you possibly know this as no one has stated that in this thread? If it's the later, why are you assuming everyone who claim Brawl is less Competitive than Melee claim it is so for those reasons exactly? Who are you claim to know what I have argued in the past and will argue in the future?
I factor in everything that Brawl has to offer, both the good and the bad. I still say Brawl is less Competitive. Some of us are capable of rational thinking and objective observation. Just because you might not be able to these things does not change the fact that some of us can.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Yeesh, man, there's no need to be hostile. I was just adding to that quote. Is that alright with you, or do I need permission for that?
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
How exactly did this thread turn into another Brawl vs. Melee debate? Jesus, I haven't seen one of those in months.