Play with Honor , Make Brawl Fun - With Some Thoughts from Mew2King

[Yuna]

Sorry, that was a typo, i didnt mean that I play a fun and entertaining style. I meant that Smash is fun and entertaining.

So, should everyone just stop learning their characters moveset, style, combos, etc
.... and just practice planking? Since it probably the safest bet that you are gonna win if your opponant cant hit you.

Imagine you are watching the World Cup Final.

Italy vs USA ( US sucks so it wont happen )

Italy gets an early lead 5 minutes into the game. 1-0.

So because they can, Italy sends all its players near their own goal making a wall of people blocking every inch of the goal. Italy does this until time runs out. Italy are the World Champions. They played to win. They won. Its part of the game, so suck it team USA.

Now tell me, would you be on the US team and think "well, thats part of the game. So its my fault that i didnt score first and do the same. GG Italy, you truly beat me. You are a much better team. Congrats."

I would be extremely pissed if i trained hard for months/years, and then my opponents resort to some uber gay tactic to win, just because they really want to win. A tournament should have the best fighters, not the best campers/stallers/infinite-grabbers.

Now tell me, is that "tactic" banned? Even if it actually worked, is it banned? Has anyone (credible) ever petitioned for it to be banned?

What if it was a tactic that only works against Team USA because of the way their players were born, like some kind of inborn inability to fight such a tactic when every other team can get around it? Should it still be banned then since it's so unfair to Team USA?

The best player in America is encouraging people to fight with honor instead of to win and you're acting like he shouldn't be listened to. Jesus, no wonder the rest of the fighting game community laughs at us.

I'd petition for Planking to be banned if it was really, really good and unfair. But it isn't. It's just annoying and, apparently, dishonorable.

I do not Plank. I would never Plank. Heck, my mains aren't even that good at Planking. In fact, I hate Planking with a passion. But that's no reason to petition for it to be banned.

"Honor" and "Fun" are good concepts in theory. In Competitive gaming? Pft.

 

[Delvro]

I would like to agree with you... I really would. I would have a lot more fun playing smash if it was more offensive.

However, it's never going to happen in the U.S. Obviously, in the U.S., if it's not banned, people will use it to win. If it IS banned... well... how do you ban camping? Competitors always have to worry if they shot one laser too many, or grabbed 3 times instead of the 2 max, or whatever...

Even if you ban everything "dishonorable", competitors will always push it a little bit, every single time. And speaking as a TO, it is difficult to catch!

The reason that such a concept is possible in Japan but not in the U.S. is because of the difference in culture. In Japan, the push to conform to the norm is very, very strong. One of those qualities that run very strong in Japan is that of honor (obviously!). This "soft ban" on dishonorable game play is stronger than any hard ban that the U.S. could levy.

 

[viparagon]

I would like to agree with you... I really would. I would have a lot more fun playing smash if it was more offensive.

However, it's never going to happen in the U.S. Obviously, in the U.S., if it's not banned, people will use it to win. If it IS banned... well... how do you ban camping? Competitors always have to worry if they shot one laser too many, or grabbed 3 times instead of the 2 max, or whatever...

Even if you ban everything "dishonorable", competitors will always push it a little bit, every single time. And speaking as a TO, it is difficult to catch!

The reason that such a concept is possible in Japan but not in the U.S. is because of the difference in culture. In Japan, the push to conform to the norm is very, very strong. One of those qualities that run very strong in Japan is that of honor (obviously!). This "soft ban" on dishonorable game play is stronger than any hard ban that the U.S. could levy.

if your a TO you should ask for a blue name

I completely agree with you. Its nice to play honorably, and you can set it as a personal goal, but it isn't a standard you should hold others to. Exact tactics, especially planking, don't have a solid way to do anything about them, and it can complicate things too much

 

[Delvro]

A blue name? I'd certainly like one.

Do you have to be some kind of awesome TO that gets players from around the nation to get a blue name? My last tournament got 78 players, about 10 from out of town (but only 1 out of state), I think.

On topic... I know it's a little scrubby of me, but I can't stand camping for more than like 5 fireballs at a time. But I'm not going to begrudge anybody if they beat me by camping... as long as it's not banned (I plan on banning Dedede's standing infinite grab on Luigi, Mario, DK, Samus, and Bowser at my next tournament)

EDIT: Woo! I'm a journeyman now

 

[AgentJGV]

I dont ledge camp because ITS NOT FUN! I play brawl to win but I also play to have fun. In reality, ledge camping isn't that hard to counter. Pikachu's down-B and Down Smash are only two of the moves that can stop it. Marth's Down tilt is another.

 

[RyanPF]

The only way to get rid of it is to find a way to consistently beat it. Or convince everyone that they will burn in hell if they plank.

 

[Delvro]

Every time you plank, a kitten dies.

Please, think of the kittens!

 

[Cirno]

In Competitive gaming? Pft.

Even in my sense of honor?


I'd like to know that win or lose after a match with you I could shake your hand and say "Good game."

 

[viparagon]

Every time you plank, a kitten dies.

Please, think of the kittens!

lol sigg'd

 

[Yuna]

Even in my sense of honor?

What is your sense of honor? What you think is honorable? What if I disagree? What if I think X is dishonorable? Is it fair for me to expect or even demand you do not do X?

I'd like to know that win or lose after a match with you I could shake your hand and say "Good game."

Competitive gaming is not about maximizing fun. You do not go to tournaments and expect every single game to be fun and enjoyable. If you want to win, you will have to adapt and start playing to win or at least expect not to always be able to play in a "fun" way or against people who play in "fun" ways.

I always shake the hands of my opponents and say "Thank you for the game". It's a courtesy. I just don't always mean it.

 

[Delvro]

Competitive gaming is not about maximizing fun. You do not go to tournaments and expect every single game to be fun and enjoyable. If you want to win, you will have to adapt and start playing to win or at least expect not to always be able to play in a "fun" way or against people who play in "fun" ways.

always shake the hands of my opponents and say "Thank you for the game". It's a courtesy. I just don't always mean it.

This is an unfortunate truth, not just in Brawl, but in everything. Maximizing fun becomes a distant second when $100+ is on the line.

That last paragraph is 100% truth for me.

 

[Ham Enterprises]

I Agree, there is no honor in winning with a ledge guard or camping all match, because when you win like that(or get a kill) it says that it took not skill to get that kill except jump onto the ledge, and those things really should be banned. Honestely in my opinion, getting spiked is the most honorable way to die, because most spikes take skill to pull off, and the other person won't recover with a gay move move like Metaknights B moves, Pits upB, or Ice Climbers upB(when there is two of them).

 

[K 2]

it says that it took not skill to get that kill except jump onto the ledge, and those things really should be banned.

Your opponent can easily run over to you and stage spike you or just edgehog you. OMFG Ledge camping HAS COUNTERS except against MK, where it becomes considerably more dangerous and difficult to perform

Honestely in my opinion, getting spiked is the most honorable way to die, because most spikes take skill to pull off, and the other person won't recover with a gay move move like Metaknights B moves, Pits upB, or Ice Climbers upB(when there is two of them).

You know, in Japan, according to the code of the samauri, suicide is the most honorable way of death (compared to being captured and taken prisoner).

Maybe we should just all SD away our lives. That's honorable.

 

[Cirno]

What is your sense of honor? What you think is honorable? What if I disagree? What if I think X is dishonorable? Is it fair for me to expect or even demand you do not do X?

The thing about honor is that it's existence is not a singularity. Like you stated, one's sense of honor is simply what they find honorable.

If you disagree, you disagree. It's not necessary for you or anyone to follow how another thinks, though as men we can always talk out our differences and hopefully arrive at an acceptable conclusion for both parties.

Your X is no different from my X, and what you can do with it is exactly the same. Unless you express what it is to me however you can't expect anything. Once again when it comes down to X, after being expressed we can only reacts to whether or not the other agrees.

Competitive gaming is not about maximizing fun. You do not go to tournaments and expect every single game to be fun and enjoyable. If you want to win, you will have to adapt and start playing to win or at least expect not to always be able to play in a "fun" way or against people who play in "fun" ways.

I find winning very fun. If I'm playing to win I'm having tons of fun. And if my opponent is doing everything he can to win and is giving me a challenge I'm having even more fun.
I try not to expect to much in enviornments I can't control, but I always hope for the best.
(:

I always shake the hands of my opponents and say "Thank you for the game". It's a courtesy. I just don't always mean it.

Well, sir, I find that very honorable.
;D

 

[kr3wman]

The most honorable thing you could do is let the other guy win.

And clearly, that´s what is the most fun and that´s what tournaments should be.

 

[Yuna]

I Agree, there is no honor in winning with a ledge guard or camping all match, because when you win like that(or get a kill) it says that it took not skill to get that kill except jump onto the ledge, and those things really should be banned.

If you want honor, move to Japan. Or play Scrub matches against your friends. Don't go to tournaments and expect people to play "honorably" with money on the line.

Honestely in my opinion, getting spiked is the most honorable way to die, because most spikes take skill to pull off, and the other person won't recover with a gay move move like Metaknights B moves, Pits upB, or Ice Climbers upB(when there is two of them).

Honestly, I think you need to educate yourself a little on how Meta Knight's B moves work (pft at them being great against Meteor Smashes) and how Meteor Smashes work in general.

Also, it takes a certain amount of immaturity to use "gay" as a derogatory word.

 

[Cirno]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahh~
And can we stop using the word gay as a negative adjective?
I know no one means it like how it's being portrayed, but it's usage in that sense may be offensive to some of our fellow homosexual Smashers.

Thanks in advance to all the intelligent players that agree.
(:

Delicious copy pasta anyone?

 

[Tenki]

this unmanly tactics should be banned from honorable play. Abusing a game flaw shouldn't be used like this and any player with some honor should not use this to win. The same way as Infinite Dimensional Cape is banned, and some tactics like doing damage and running away until the time goes out wouln't probably be allowed on tournaments... It really breaks the game.. it really hurts Brawl as a game... It goes against the competitive spirit... that is also unmanly... You can be sure Sakurai didn't wanted this to be in the game.. A tactic that can be used like that over and over and it is so easy and broken should be banned for tournament play..

/notmyopinion,butfunnytoputherelol

Hey, what if I find it dishonorable when my opponent doesn't do everything in his capability to win. What if I like counter-camping campers with faux-approaches and feints? Maybe I find it fun to try to read and out-read my opponents?

:l

 

[Blackshadow]

You can be sure Sakurai didn't wanted this to be in the game

I think we can be sure that Sakurai didn't want Brawl being played in a tournament setting, no? Isn't that why the game is only broken to holy hell when us tourneyfags get our hands on it, and actually exploit the gameplay flaws that exist in this game?

 

[8AngeL8]

I think everyone on the boards should go play a "normal" fighting game for a day and realize just how many infinites/super lame tactics they have.

 

[Woozle]

Don't go to tournaments and expect people to play "honorably" with money on the line.

:<

That's not right. People should play with honor, honesty and integrity.

Don't go to tournaments and expect people to play "fair" with money on the line.

That's better.

 

[metaXzero]

Tenki: Stalling aside, IDC was never proven to break the game. It was banned to prevent stalling, not for "being a perfect approach" or something like that.

I made a valid proposal to unban it, but no one will try and refute it

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Actually, I don't believe it is possible to IDC for seven minutes straight. You'll hurt your arm.

 

[metaXzero]

Actually, I don't believe it is possible to IDC for seven minutes straight. You'll hurt your arm.

To stall, people would do it in moderation (do it here and there), not hold it out the entire time...

 

[Yuna]

I think everyone on the boards should go play a "normal" fighting game for a day and realize just how many infinites/super lame tactics they have.

Exactly. The vast majority of Brawl players haven't played any other fighting game Competitively, ever, maybe never having even seen good players play them.

They have very little insight into how Competitive fighting games really work.

That or they go with the "Brawl is different!"-argument as if it mattered.

 

[Frogsterking]

I've never played a different competitive fighting game

What are they like?

 

[8AngeL8]

Assuming that's a serious post, not a joke that I can't detect through the internet:

Lots and lots of infinites, and lots of really lame strategies that require no skill to pull off, but immense skill to counter.

 

[Cha0tic NiGhTmArE]

ha wow guys you need to chill on both sides .though i agree that spamming is gay and what not we have all caught ourselves doing at one time or another because most of the time winning=fun and thats just the way it is..i mean i get pissed when people spam against me but smash bros is straight up situational..there is away around it. control your fight do sit back and ***** "AWWW hes camping im gonna cry cause he isnt playing "honorable".. and also not every best person at this game spams..Hylian is 4th best in texas as G&W and he does not camp, infinite chaingrab,etc.. hes just **** good.. until the day comes where you becaome a mature brawl player your going to have this define line of honorable and not, and while you have that line your hitting a wall where your probably not going to improve weather you play honorable or not.

 

[Fletch]

Tenki: Stalling aside, IDC was never proven to break the game. It was banned to prevent stalling, not for "being a perfect approach" or something like that.

I made a valid proposal to unban it, but no one will try and refute it

I always wondered why that was banned so swiftly in the first place.

 

[Frogsterking]

Assuming that's a serious post, not a joke that I can't detect through the internet:

Lots and lots of infinites, and lots of really lame strategies that require no skill to pull off, but immense skill to counter.

Oh

Guess I'l stick with Brawl then.

 

[Tenki]

Tenki: Stalling aside, IDC was never proven to break the game. It was banned to prevent stalling, not for "being a perfect approach" or something like that.

I made a valid proposal to unban it, but no one will try and refute it

I think we can be sure that Sakurai didn't want Brawl being played in a tournament setting, no? Isn't that why the game is only broken to holy hell when us tourneyfags get our hands on it, and actually exploit the gameplay flaws that exist in this game?

Sakurai didn't want Melee being played in a tournament setting either. I don't see why everyone makes such a big deal about it, other than tripping and removal/nerf of things that were popular in the Melee tournament scene. XD

anyway, the first part of the post you were replying to was a jooooke.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207320

After seeing Pikachu's Chain Grab over Fox I have to say these.. this unmanly tactics should be banned from honorable play. Abusing a game flaw shouldn't be used like this and any player with some honor should not use this to win. Really, how can someone feel good by winning like this? Why a fox main has to change his character against a pikachu because people would abuse this detestable game bug? The same way as Infinite Dimensional Cape is banned, and some tactics like doing damage and running away until the time goes out wouln't probably be allowed on tournaments... detestable tactics like chain grabbing should be banned... It really breaks the game.. it really hurts Brawl as a game... It goes against the competitive spirit... Do not tell me that you can counterpick.. as I think that is also unmanly...you should be able to use any character against the other without a matchup like 9:1 because of a silly bad programmed chain grab.. You can be sure Sakurai didn't wanted this to be in the game.. A tactic that can be used like that over and over and it is so easy and broken should be banned for tournament play..
Who is with me?

copy, paste, and removal of things that had to do with chaingrabbing.
=

this unmanly tactics should be banned from honorable play. Abusing a game flaw shouldn't be used like this and any player with some honor should not use this to win. The same way as Infinite Dimensional Cape is banned, and some tactics like doing damage and running away until the time goes out wouln't probably be allowed on tournaments... It really breaks the game.. it really hurts Brawl as a game... It goes against the competitive spirit... that is also unmanly... You can be sure Sakurai didn't wanted this to be in the game.. A tactic that can be used like that over and over and it is so easy and broken should be banned for tournament play..

/notmyopinion,butfunnytoputherelol

In other words, both of these threads' complaints are similar in their nature:

moarscrubbywhining

 

[metaXzero]

I always wondered why that was banned so swiftly in the first place.

Ditto. They acted like their was no way to allow it without encouraging stalling with it...

Yet, I make a solution to it and they just ignore (And Buzz just tell me "its still unfair)....

EDIT: Tenki, you quoted me without even replying to it....>_>

 

[8AngeL8]

Dimensional cape really has almost no application other than stalling, though. It's not even a particularly good approach...

 

[K 2]

Honestly...This "honor" thing is the cheesiest excuse I've heard by far.

This kid thinks that quotes from M2K will suddenly change the tournament scene....lol

The anti-ban side has refuted every argument of the pro-ban side...Seriously guys, save yourself the embarassment and stop arguing about this.

 

[Tenki]

Tenki, you quoted me without even replying to it....>_>

I kind of addressed it with the following:

anyway, the first part of the post you were replying to was a jooooke.

-------------------
But if that's not enough, then here, some random crap that has to do with IDC lol:

I was actually "neutral" to the whole IDC thing. When it came out, I was already finding ways to counter/take advantage of it, but when it got banned, I was like "oh, okay, well at least we don't have to worry about it "

 

[ftl]

I always wondered why that was banned so swiftly in the first place.

It's a mechanism for MK to become invincible for an arbitrary amount of time at any point when he's on the stage, and come out of invincibility with an attack which has a hitbox before it has any visible animation, making it actually impossible to react to. How could anything be *more* broken than that?

 

[metaXzero]

Dimensional cape really has almost no application other than stalling, though. It's not even a particularly good approach...

And yet, its banned even though it doesn't have to be......

EDIT: ftl. That's not why it was banned though. And my proposal also addressed the scenario of MKs spamming it...

 

[Barge]

And yet, its banned even though it doesn't have to be......

EDIT: ftl. That's not why it was banned though. And my proposal also addressed the scenario of MKs spamming it...

Doesn't matter. It makes him invincible for a short amount of time, and can make him appear anywhere on the map. This can be used to avoid almost anything, or if the metaknight is leading by %, win the match due to running away with it. >_>

 

[metaXzero]

Doesn't matter. It makes him invincible for a short amount of time, and can make him appear anywhere on the map. This can be used to avoid almost anything, or if the metaknight is leading by %, win the match due to running away with it. >_>

1. The camera gives away his location.
2. Is that use broken enough to warrent a ban? I say not.
3. My proposal addressed stalling with it (go to the IDC thread in the MK boards).

 

[Frogsterking]

You say thats not enough to warrant a ban!? I don't understand how you see it that way.

And why would you want to make MK stronger anyway?