Play with Honor , Make Brawl Fun - With Some Thoughts from Mew2King

[Narukari]

I don't like the whole "honor" fighting thing that people are portraying with brawl. This isn't an anime where your inner spirit will make you succeed because you have great karma. I watched the fox vs falco match on the first post, and the entire match is one mistake after another.

Every time one player hit the other, they would chase them in some hope of pulling a combo. Guess what, that doesn't work in brawl. If you follow the character you just hit, they get to hit you back. This was shown through that entire match. We can't degrade matches into "you just hit me now you need to chase after me so I can hit you back, because it looks better on youtube".

Also, every sport is like that. In football, you constantly see players push the rules to the limits in order to win the game. Once those players get out on the field, there is only one goal, "kick the ball into the opponents goal".

To wrap things up, I do believe "planking" provides a huge advantage right now, but that doesn't mean the metagame won't switch in the future. "I don't like playing that way" and "this doesn't make good youtube material" shouldn't be reasons why a tactic is banned from play.

 

[Woozle]

Also, every sport is like that. In football, you constantly see players push the rules to the limits in order to win the game. Once those players get out on the field, there is only one goal, "kick the ball into the opponents goal".

Funny story- Football is not like smash. Virtually no other sport is like competitive video games. You can find exploits in video games. Physics irregularities. Broken mechanics.

The laws of gravity don't have computation errors.

 

[popsofctown]

So, my idea only got two responses, and both were positive.. I think I'll make a thread on it then. Can someone come up with a cool name though?

 

[darkNES386]

Anything is allowed to win? 'K. More Infinite Dimensional Cape coming right up!
The Infinite cape was banned, but it could be used strategically and all that. Yet it was still outright banned. Think about that for a moment.

The cape was banned for a completely different reason. You win with the cape by stalling. That's not the same thing at all.

You can play honorable if you want, like suicide when your opponent accidentally suicides, but if they don't play honorable in return, you shouldn't complain.

Considering that this conversation is really only relevant to tournaments, I can assure you that you will never witness a player suiciding to "even" the score. If a golfer blows a put or a QB throws an interception... what do you think their opponents are going to do?

brawl needs more sportsmanship 2000th post

Well, from my experience the only issues are when sore losers get really pissed off. Otherwise, it's not that big of a deal. Most people complaining are probably not even participating in live events and just whinning about some wifi/friendly battles they have had.

Anther is right. It won't work. They will just find a way to beat the system. You need to beat the tactic, not make a rule. Breaking the tactic advances the metagame, making a rule doesn't.

Quoted for the truth.

Then camping is against the rules. lolol

Camping still means you have to leave yourself open to a possible attack. MK's infinite cape results in never getting hit. Those are really different.

Here's a suggestion I didn't see. Counterpick a stage like rainbow, lylat, or frigate. Either you're making it more risky for them to play on the ledge (lylat), you're making ledges almost non-existant (rainbow) or for half the battle the ledges are not present and a stage flip forces players to move (frigate). You didn't even have to stop and think about what options your own character has to make these adjustments. That's just logical tournament strategy to eliminate someone's strengths. Since some people don't like going lylat against MK... fine.... how about Norfair or Brinstar... rising lava ... lava on the sides... if you're falco, go to Japes then. Now your planking friend has to worry about klaptraps... and possibly getting caught in the tide. Not to mention falco's laser might go under the sides from the middle... yes??? don't know if that's true.

EDIT: SK92 is an idiot. He picked battlefield for the second match.... probably an even easier stage to do this on.

 

[popsofctown]

Funny story- Football is not like smash. Virtually no other sport is like competitive video games. You can find exploits in video games. Physics irregularities. Broken mechanics.

The laws of gravity don't have computation errors.

Spitballs, banned from major league baseball.
It doesn't break the laws of physics, but i would call it irregular.
I'd say sports can be comparable. Any analogy is good as long as you make clear which parts you're analogizing.

 

[GofG]

The reason i quoted M2k was because you didnt see anyone call him a scrub when he suggested that planking/ledgestalling be banned.

Sorry, I'm not done reading the thread and I know it's really long and I'm quoting something that happened a long time ago, but I had to at least come out and say that a ****ton, a ****load, a huge ****ing amount of people called M2K a scrub. Myself included.

 

[Narukari]

Funny story- Football is not like smash. Virtually no other sport is like competitive video games. You can find exploits in video games. Physics irregularities. Broken mechanics.

The laws of gravity don't have computation errors.

touche, but we aren't talking about a glitch in the game, if you could somehow make your ledgegrab invincibility frames last forever then that would probably be looked carefully at about being banned. Ledgegrabbing was coded carefully in to make the character in a very safe position at the ledge. The developers might not have seen how much of an offensive position it put you in, which is why having the ability to patch games is a must in competitive games.

This is something they need to take a look at when developing the next game. If its decided that this advantage at the edge of a stage is what they wanted it will stay in. They have already changed the game to fit what they wanted it to be when they decided that every hit would be a battle of wits, and there would be no more huge combos like there were in melee. This makes the battles a lot slower, but you cant compensate by playing foolishly so that you look cooler in the fight.

 

[darkNES386]

So, my idea only got two responses, and both were positive.. I think I'll make a thread on it then. Can someone come up with a cool name though?

Feel free to do what you want... just remember that if people are playing in live tournaments they're going to most likely conform to whatever rules/regulations smashboards as a whole agrees to. Believe it or not, SBR is not out to make Brawl less fun for the competative scene. If the general rules/guidelines posted by them aren't for you then feel free to host some online events your own way. I wish you luck and you can feel free to join my website in my sig and try it out.

 

[Woozle]

Ledgegrabbing was coded carefully in to make the character in a very safe position at the ledge.

True.

The developers might not have seen how much of an offensive position it put you in, which is why having the ability to patch games is a must in competitive games.

Perhaps the problem here is that Nintendo couldn't care less about the competitive scene. Then the game wouldn't even have been designed for such use, and even thinking about testing or patching certain elements would be a waste for them- and considering how much casual software they've released recently, it wouldn't be at all surprising.

This is something they need to take a look at when developing the next game. If its decided that this advantage at the edge of a stage is what they wanted it will stay in.

Then is it just that we have to wait until a game we are unsure of ever surfacing swoops in to fix all of the problems? I don't see that as being any more of a solution than failing to put on a seatbelt and praying to God moments before colliding with a semi. Sure, it might go well, but you have no control over it. Brawl we have control of.

This makes the battles a lot slower, but you cant compensate by playing foolishly so that you look cooler in the fight.

Agreed.

Here's a question. If both players are planking, does it count as stalling?

 

[darkNES386]

Here's a question. If both players are planking, does it count as stalling?

No it wouldn't be. Obviously whoever is losing (percentage wise) wouldn't simply let the time drain down.

Here's a suggestion I didn't see. Counterpick a stage like rainbow, lylat, or frigate. Either you're making it more risky for them to play on the ledge (lylat), you're making ledges almost non-existant (rainbow) or for half the battle the ledges are not present and a stage flip forces players to move (frigate). You didn't even have to stop and think about what options your own character has to make these adjustments. That's just logical tournament strategy to eliminate someone's strengths. Since some people don't like going lylat against MK... fine.... how about Norfair or Brinstar... rising lava ... lava on the sides... if you're falco, go to Japes then. Now your planking friend has to worry about klaptraps... and possibly getting caught in the tide. Not to mention falco's laser might go under the sides from the middle... yes??? don't know if that's true.[/COLOR]

EDIT: SK92 is an idiot. He picked battlefield for the second match.... probably an even easier stage to do this on.

So are people going to stop complaining.... did they read this yet ^?

 

[Woozle]

No it wouldn't be. Obviously whoever is losing (percentage wise) wouldn't simply let the time drain down.

What if they're both at zero?

 

[darkNES386]

What if they're both at zero?

Well, considering this would probably never happen in a tournament.... if I was the TO... I would probably DQ both players on the spot.

 

[Woozle]

Well, considering this would probably never happen in a tournament.... if I was the TO... I would probably DQ both players on the spot.

Okay.

So then why is okay for one person at 0 to do it?

 

[darkNES386]

Okay.

So then why is okay for one person at 0 to do it?

I'm fox... you're MK. The match starts and I tag you with a laser shot before you position yourself on the edge. You're at 1% and I'm at 0. If you never come off the ledge to get me.... I'll win that game.

I don't know what the rules are for a 0%-0% final outcome for a single match.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Only one thing left to do...

And that is... absolutely nothing

Every smash player needs to understand by them selfs that playing that way dosen't make you a good player.

i would be happy to win the " SSBB World Championship " ... but if i had won it in that way. i just wouldn't be as happy as i should. Cause deep inside i would know that i didn't really beat all those players. I didn't really show that my skills are better than yours.

i'm not saying i dont agree with CG... we just need to separate the moments when we really NEED to do it (the other player did a random mistake in some random time of the match and we decide to punish him)

and the moments we just do it TO WIN (start the game with your mind already set on doing some infinite or a CG just cause it will make you win... and you will go till the end for one CG)

(you probably think they are both the same. And we can't really make such rules as what i just said before. the only way to stop this crap is just... don't doing it

Playing in such a way just wouldn't fulfill myself... it just wouldn't make victory fell the same.

HONOR IS THE SOUL OF EVERY GAMER... DONT WASTE IT

Yeah, but heres the thing. Everyone says "play to win". So where does it end? Like someone said, do i choose Fox, tag someone with a lazer at the very start of a match and just ledge camp as best as i can for the next 8 minutes? If he hits me, do we just try and tag eachother and camp?

The reason i play the Smash games is because its an extremely fun and entertaining game to play.

When the game gets broken down to 2 camping/infiniting players, then it takes the fighting out of the game.

There arent too many people who would resort to such a ***** *** play style, but those people need players who actually fight in order for that style to succeed. If that player doesnt feel like being ledgecamped to death. The next game, he is going to do the same to the other guy. And if everyone plays with the "i do anything it takes to win" mentality, then this game is headed to fail.

i thought Richard Simmons was the gayest thing ever, until i saw what Plank did to SK92.

 

[darkNES386]

The reason i play the Smash games is because i play an extremely fun and entertaining game to play.

i thought Richard Simmons was the gayest thing ever, until i saw what Plank did to SK92.

I take it you didn't read my post in yellow. If you aren't going to tournaments then you really shouldn't care about this at all.

 

[bigman40]

There's no real discussion for this. Unless there's NO method to beating someone while they're doing this, then that's a different story. In tourneys, anything within your power will be tested, may it be physical or mental, you have to prove that whatever comes at you, you have what it takes to win through it.

 

[Narukari]

There's no real discussion for this. Unless there's NO method to beating someone while they're doing this, then that's a different story. In tourneys, anything within your power will be tested, may it be physical or mental, you have to prove that whatever comes at you, you have what it takes to win through it.

Agreed, in friendlies you can play however you want to play. If someone is using the ledge all the time, then you can ask him to stop. In most situations though, you won't find many people who play like that in friendlies because its not that enjoyable to play that way.

In a tournament scenario however, people are playing a whole different game of smash. If you put down $20 to try and fight to the top with a $500 first place prize. You aren't going through your head "Is this technique gonna make people angry when I use it on them?". A tournament is a gamble that you are the best out of everybody there. Not, the best out of people who only play with traditional strategies. All you are doing is pitting your best against your opponents best, whoever makes it to the top claims the prize money.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Sorry, that was a typo, i didnt mean that I play a fun and entertaining style. I meant that Smash is fun and entertaining.

So, should everyone just stop learning their characters moveset, style, combos, etc
.... and just practice planking? Since it probably the safest bet that you are gonna win if your opponant cant hit you.

Imagine you are watching the World Cup Final.

Italy vs USA ( US sucks so it wont happen )

Italy gets an early lead 5 minutes into the game. 1-0.

So because they can, Italy sends all its players near their own goal making a wall of people blocking every inch of the goal. Italy does this until time runs out. Italy are the World Champions. They played to win. They won. Its part of the game, so suck it team USA.



Now tell me, would you be on the US team and think "well, thats part of the game. So its my fault that i didnt score first and do the same. GG Italy, you truly beat me. You are a much better team. Congrats."

I would be extremely pissed if i trained hard for months/years, and then my opponents resort to some uber gay tactic to win, just because they really want to win. A tournament should have the best fighters, not the best campers/stallers/infinite-grabbers.

 

[darkNES386]

There's no real discussion for this. Unless there's NO method to beating someone while they're doing this, then that's a different story. In tourneys, anything within your power will be tested, may it be physical or mental, you have to prove that whatever comes at you, you have what it takes to win through it.

Thanks Scat You know how to get right to the point.

Edit: Original poster refuses to answer questions and clearly doesn't play in tournaments. I've lost all interest in this discussion.

 

[Narukari]

So, should everyone just stop learning their characters moveset, style, combos, etc
.... and just practice planking? Since it probably the safest bet that you are gonna win if your opponant cant hit you.

Imagine you are watching the World Cup Final.

Italy vs USA ( US sucks so it wont happen )

Italy gets an early lead 5 minutes into the game. 1-0.

So because they can, Italy sends all its players near their own goal making a wall of people blocking every inch of the goal. Italy does this until time runs out. Italy are the World Champions. They played to win. They won. Its part of the game, so suck it team USA.


Now tell me, would you be on the US team and think "well, thats part of the game. So its my fault that i didnt score first and do the same. GG Italy, you truly beat me. You are a much better team. Congrats."

I would be extremely pissed if i trained hard for months/years, and then my opponents resort to some uber gay tactic to win, just because they really want to win.

Who's to say planking is the best strategy. It might be really effective right now, but it doesn't seem that overpowered. I remember when people were saying snake and rob were gonna win all the tournaments because range camping is the best strategy in the game. But now were dealing with MK and this now. Times always keep changing, people will always try to beat the current metagame.

And, like someone once told me a long long time ago. Field sports doesn't make a great comparison to smash.

If the whole team could just form a wall over the goal post to win the game. Then I'm surprised that I haven't seen more of it. So, I assume that it isn't possible to do that because of rules or something like that. My football knowledge isn't up to par.

edit: Also, it seemed to me that SK was more perplexed on how to approach than there being a lack of possible approaches.

 

[bigman40]

Thx Dnes I do what I can. Drawing stuff out ain't for me. Getting straight to the point will get people further anyways.

People are going to wine and say that planking/ledgestalling/chaingrabbing/etc. is annoying and cheap. Yet, in tournaments, you have all those options available to yourself. If you're going to get annoyed about something like that, and you wish to continue playing with honor, then go back to training and practice to find a way to get around it. Complaining won't get you anywhere about it.

You can put yourself at more risk to get a better reward, but at the same time, your opponent can use a "safer" tactic and slowly increase his/her chances to winning the match. By that point, your job is to keep your emotions under control, and figure out a loophole (lol, MK reference) where you can safely add damage.

Everything you practiced is still useful, you just may not use it as much. There's no such thing as relying on one method to get you far. You're gonna get taken down sooner or later.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Italy gets an early lead 5 minutes into the game. 1-0.

So because they can, Italy sends all its players near their own goal making a wall of people blocking every inch of the goal. Italy does this until time runs out. Italy are the World Champions. They played to win. They won. Its part of the game, so suck it team USA.

Um, that would require them to be in the goalie's area, wouldn't it? And I'd think unless the people making the rules are dumb **** ********, they'd ban such a technique just like Basketball where you cant be directly under the hoop.


The only thing I can even kinda agree with you on is ledge stalling, and that's because it draws out the game and is a form of stalling, but it isn't entirely unpunishable, thus, I don't give a ****. I've only sen one match between Sk92, and half the reason that match lasted so long was because of Sk92's screw ups. (Not saying he was bad or acting stupid, dont get offended, just saying it wasn't like Plank was 100% covered.)

 

[Fletch]

Now tell me, would you be on the US team and think "well, thats part of the game. So its my fault that i didnt score first and do the same. GG Italy, you truly beat me. You are a much better team. Congrats."

Yes, play to win.

Too bad that isn't a fathomable case since it's impossible to cover the whole goal. The problem with this whole thing is you're relating a non-broken game (soccer) to a broken one (Brawl). Bottom line is if money is on the line, people are going to play to win. I would sure as hell camp my *** off if anyone tried to play "honorably" against me, and I'd be the better player for it. This would be impossible to enforce anyways, and I hate this new mindset that has come with the Brawl community.

 

[Samuelson]

stop complaining and go play melee...seriously

 

[1048576]

Sorry, that was a typo, i didnt mean that I play a fun and entertaining style. I meant that Smash is fun and entertaining.

So, should everyone just stop learning their characters moveset, style, combos, etc
.... and just practice planking? Since it probably the safest bet that you are gonna win if your opponant cant hit you.

Imagine you are watching the World Cup Final.

Italy vs USA ( US sucks so it wont happen )

Italy gets an early lead 5 minutes into the game. 1-0.

So because they can, Italy sends all its players near their own goal making a wall of people blocking every inch of the goal. Italy does this until time runs out. Italy are the World Champions. They played to win. They won. Its part of the game, so suck it team USA.



Now tell me, would you be on the US team and think "well, thats part of the game. So its my fault that i didnt score first and do the same. GG Italy, you truly beat me. You are a much better team. Congrats."

I would be extremely pissed if i trained hard for months/years, and then my opponents resort to some uber gay tactic to win, just because they really want to win. A tournament should have the best fighters, not the best campers/stallers/infinite-grabbers.

Your analogy...

The goal in professional soccer is really big, and it extends above players' heads, so there's no way that tactic would ever work. Furthermore, that's basically what happens. Once a team scores they put all 11 guys on the back third of the field when the other team has the ball. In modern soccer it's nearly impossible to come back from a deficit, and the majority of games end X-nil, because sometimes in the panic of trying to score a breakaway slips by and the winning team scores again.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

you know what i think it might be.

The money involved in Tourneys.

I guess most of you guys are younger, so $500 or $2000 seems like a lot, and you need to play to win some $$$.

I could care less about teh prize money, so maybe thats why i dont get why some people play as gay as can be for a few bucks.

Oh well, carry on. Some one make a new thread discussing apple pies.

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think is the most balanced fighter?

 

[Fletch]

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think is the most balanced fighter?

Not the thread for this, but most people consider Guilty Gear the most balanced fighting series.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its a very hard decision between guilty gear, street fighter, and virtua fighter

 

[Kitamerby]

\
But you can't just get other people to do it because it would be funner.
If it were like that we'd all just play falcon dittos all day.

I love you. <3

 

[M15t3R E]

No one finds it "fun" when their opponent's mindgame tricks them and they become subject to a smash attack which KO's them, for example.
There's always a way to avoid situations that you may call "cheap". Just let people play as they will.

But don't worry, there is some sort of honor code. MK's infinite dimensional cape and D3's infinites are banned.
For everything else, there is no need to whine about it.

 

[Narukari]

you know what i think it might be.

The money involved in Tourneys.

I guess most of you guys are younger, so $500 or $2000 seems like a lot, and you need to play to win some $$$.

I could care less about teh prize money, so maybe thats why i dont get why some people play as gay as can be for a few bucks.

$500 isn't a lot of money? That's one month of rent for me, $2000 would set me good with my landlord for 1/3 of a year, or pay for tuition for a term of college courses. Imagine if you got good enough to where you could win a $500 tourney once a month to pay all of your rent by doing something you enjoy. Young or old that is a lot of money. People put on chicken suits 8 hours a day and make less than that in 2 weeks.

And you really do seem to care about the tournament scene or else you wouldn't post such a topic saying that we should change our way of playing. The thing is no matter how many people keep posting here about how bad things are, I never hear any of it at an actual tournament, everyone knows people are doing everything the game allows to win.

People keep saying its "honorable" to do this or that in a video game. There is no "honor" aspect to smash brothers. I hope that using the ledge vs not using the ledge isn't the most "honorable" thing about a person. I will get pissed however if I know someone was sandbagging against me by not using the ledge when that's the best strategy they could be doing against me at the time. Or, I couldn't care less but...


no johns.

 

[Cirno]

There is no "honor" aspect to smash brothers.

Eye disagree.

I don't even understand where some of these "honor" concepts come from; I'd consider myself "honorable" in the sense that I'll treat my opponents with respect outside of the game and will, after the games, be happy to discuss what went wrong for you if you lost to me. I also do my best to show my opponents the respect in all games, be they random friendlies or tournament finals, of playing to win so their victory over me if they do get the best of it means as much as possible. I can't say I never engage in the fine art of johns, but I try to never say anything to cheapen my opponent's success (well, laggy WiFi aside; I sometimes get too upset over that for my own good). If I really tear someone apart, I don't gloat over it or make fun of how much they suck (even if they do); I limit all my criticisms of them to things that I think are important for them to hear in order to improve ("maybe you would do better with a character other than Ganon", etc.). To me, that is far more "honorable" than anything actually within the game.

This^ wins.

It was respect and an attitude like this that took 64 matches in some guy's bedroom to convention centers Melee tournies to now.

Let's try not to lose the respect we have for each other as lovers of Smash.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahh~
And can we stop using the word gay as a negative adjective?
I know no one means it like how it's being portrayed, but it's usage in that sense may be offensive to some of our fellow homosexual Smashers.

Thanks in advance to all the intelligent players that agree.
(:

 

[Narukari]

Eye disagree.


'big quote'

This^ wins.

It was respect and an attitude like this that took 64 matches in some guy's bedroom to convention centers Melee tournies to now.

Let's try not to lose the respect we have for each other as lovers of Smash.

Yea, I like that quote you posted. It is much more important how you behave off the stage than what goes on in the match.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Yea, I like that quote you posted. It is much more important how you behave off the stage than what goes on in the match.

When non-stop spamming, camping, and planking plays in, I would say in-game is more important.

Otherwise, yes.

 

[Cirno]

When non-stop spamming, camping, and planking plays in, I would say in-game is more important.

Otherwise, yes.

I believe in game, the most honorable thing you can do is give it your all while still adhering to the rules.

 

[Yuna]

Competitive gaming has never been about maximizing fun or honor. Honor is for losers.

Winning is all that matters. If something isn't "too good", we cannot ban it, lest we declare ourselves Scrubs by definition.

If you do not like it, then don't play it Competitively.

Yes, I realize this old and a stock answer. Doesn't change how true it is and how much it applies to this situation. Unless someone just discovered some way to make Planking that much better, I guess.

 

[Lore]

Yes, I realize this old and a stock answer. Doesn't change how true it is and how much it applies to this situation. Unless someone just discovered some way to make Planking that much better, I guess.

Doesn't matter whether it's an old or stock answer if it's true.

Still, there ARE ways around camping. It's not that hard to counter, to be honest.

Still, spamming isn't really a bad problem due to the fact it makes the other person predictable and easy to punish.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

M2k is a scrub, apparently.

Play to win, not for fun!

By the way, this is a JOKE POST (I know how dumb you morons can be)

The best player in America is encouraging people to fight with honor instead of to win and you're acting like he shouldn't be listened to. Jesus, no wonder the rest of the fighting game community laughs at us.

Also, z3rocool, are you a cousin of the Hilton's or something? In what kind of fantasy world is 2 grand not a lot of money? You could feed a family for more than half a year on that.

 

[1048576]

M2K is a scrub.

Scrub has an unwarranted negative connotation. If we're playing in a tourney finals for money, and you suddenly start convulsing, am I going to be all "now's my chance", and push your guy off the stage three times, or am I going to pause, take out my cell phone, and call 911. I'm going to do the latter, and any decent human being would. Does that make me a scrub in Sirlin's eyes? Hell yeah. So what? Being a scrub is not a bad thing. Being a douche is.

Ledgestalling is a doucebaggy move, and MK is a douchebag character. It's okay, we can be scrubs.