Play with Honor , Make Brawl Fun - With Some Thoughts from Mew2King

[_Phloat_]

In professional sports; lets say Basketball, Soccer, and Football, they play for MILLIONS of dollars.

And, at the start of their matches, the play the game with Sportsmanship. This happens throughout most of the match.

Once they get to the last, say 5 or 10 min of the game, you can see the "play to win" strategies.

Basketball teams will intentional foul the other team to try and get the ball back. And during the last 20 seconds or so, they will try and run the clock out. They don't want the fouls hurting them early in the game. Fouling out and losing 2 minutes of your best player after he plays 30 isn't as bad as, say, losing him in 5 minutes.

Football, they will start making catches, and then run out of bounds to stop the clock. When they need to catch up. Why would they do that when they have the lead/the clock isn't a problem? You act as if this is always the best thing to do, when it is not.

Soccer, the team with the lead, will start to keep the ball on their side of the goal during the last 5 to 10min or so and just pass the ball among themselves. Don't know much about soccer, but I imagine there is a way to systematically shut this down.. Maybe not.

This is considered a play to win strategy. However, no one considers this a douchebag way to play. They still play the game, respect the other team, have sportsmanship, and still play to win. All without being a douche.


SK92 vs Plank is a prime example of douchbaggery. Why? Because Plank began planking as soon as the match started, and continued to plank his way to victory.

Had Plank played SK, had a great match and then did what he did during the last 30 sec or so, people would understand why he did it. The clock then came into play. That would have been the smart thing to do. But going into a match, tagging your opponant and then just running away is really lame. and smart, if they can't stop it...

Imagine a Boxing match like that, guy tags his opponant, then proceeds to run away for the rest of the match. In theory, I guess you could do that. But you wont really see that in Pro boxing. And when you do , its pretty much laughed at and considered a joke by everyone. You can't like, hang on the ledges in boxing... I am pretty sure that if someone tried to run for even a full round they would get cornered and then get their faces punched in.

Amateurs compete like douches.

Pros play to win. and look like douches to the uninformed.

I didnt start his thread to make people enforce 'moral' rules during a tournament.
That will never happen.

You should always play to win. Especially during a tourney.

But no one wants this game devolving into a plankfest, grabfest, or or overall boring game to play. The game is broken enough as it is. Planking didn't even work on better players/characters more fit to ledgefight. Grabfest... would get you predicted and owned? Its not being "cheap" grabbing the whole game, its being a ******* ... **** censor, its another word for silly butt..

All I'm suggesting, is that if people that compete professionally for Millions of dollars with millions of people watching and can STILL show some sportsmanship, i think Smashers playing for a few hundred bucks can do the same.

Like someone else said, they aren't competing for millions of dollars, they already have the money... Once again, if there was a "gay" way to play football and win, it would be banned. Like the "flying wedge" of olden days =P

 

[XxBlackxX]

Professional athletes play professional sports to make money. IF it was to entertain people, they'd play for free.

Teams that lose make a lot less money than teams that win. There's more money involved in one professional basketball game than in 100 Smash tournaments.

The only reason teams in professional sports don't stall or try cheap tactics is because THEY DON'T WORK in pro sports. The reason fouling doesn't happen until the end of the game is because players can't play if they foul more than a certain number of times. The reason they don't stall is because there is a shot clock, and because the other team will steal it eventually and get an easy score.

Cheap tactics don't work in sports. If they did, they would be used. Anyone remember the defensive hockey player that faceguarded the opposing goalie? It worked somewhat, until it was BANNED. That's right, they made a a rule against it because it hurt the game. SBR needs to step up and do the same for Brawl if it's such a huge problem.

i don't think you really understand how pro basketball works
sure, TEAMS are paid more if they reach or win playoffs
but, PLAYERS are paid by CONTRACT, meaning if they are a good players, they will be paid accordly high no matter what team they are on.
and also, they reason there is so much money involved is because people are enertained by watching it, therefore ratings go up and they get paid more, therefore playing dirty is stupid because you might win, but will be paid less in the long run.

 

[da K.I.D.]

once again, steeler is amazing.
EDIT: and ryanPF is too good

and dispite the fact that i really like zero's analogy and i thought it was really good, ive realised that you cant use analogies on SWF because theres always going to be some prick waiting to tear you down for no good reason. theres always going to be a flaw that some douche is going to want to pick at purely because they want to disagree with you, they wont admit that they have the ability to be wrong, and they think that their ideas are better than yours

and in defense of the analogy
yes, they get paid whether they win or lose, but there are measure in place to make sure the athletes are playing to win. clauses that garantee more money if the player scores so many times or gets so many sacks or w/e and the team that wins the championship always gets extra money. and inversly, if they do bad or dont do what they are supposed to do there are clauses for that too, which is why the league can take away ppls money if they ride motorcycles or stuff like that.

oh and some thing i saw on the boards a while back
yea you want to win, you want the money and w/e but if you arent playing the game for fun you are in teh wrong place, because there a crapload of things out there that you could be doing that are garanteed to make you way more more than playing smash. so if you are only going for the money, do some thing else. people play the game to have fun and i think that its horrible that people would try to fault others that play the game for that purpose.

things like that really upset me.

so in conclusion, if you have to play in a gay way that takes all the fun and competition out of the game, go do something that will actually make you some money. because even pro athletes have some dignity

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am quite sure in the palyer contracts they are required to fulfill certain quota in order to get paid.

 

[XxBlackxX]

once again, steeler is amazing.
and dispite the fact that i really like zero's analogy and i thought it was really good, ive realised that you cant use analogies on SWF because theres always going to be some prick waiting to tear you down for no good reason. theres always going to be a flaw that some douche is going to want to pick at purely because they want to disagree with you, they wont admit that they have the ability to be wrong, and they think that their ideas are better than yours

and in defense of the analogy
yes, they get paid whether they win or lose, but there are measure in place to make sure the athletes are playing to win. clauses that garantee more money if the player scores so many times or gets so many sacks or w/e and the team that wins the championship always gets extra money. and inversly, if they do bad or dont do what they are supposed to do there are clauses for that too, which is why the league can take away ppls money if they ride motorcycles or stuff like that.

oh and some thing i saw on the boards a while back
yea you want to win, you want the money and w/e but if you arent playing the game for fun you are in teh wrong place, because there a crapload of things out there that you could be doing that are garanteed to make you way more more than playing smash. so if you are only going for the money, do some thing else. people play the game to have fun and i think that its horrible that people would try to fault others that play the game for that purpose.

things like that really upset me.

so in conclusion, if you have to play in a gay way that takes all the fun and competition out of the game, go do something that will actually make you some money. because even pro athletes have some dignity

like i've said, yes, the point of the game is to have fun. however, playing a game COMPETITIVELY is NOT to have fun. if you want fun, stay home and play friendlies with your friends, go all items on, all stages unbbaned, and play falcon dittos all day or whatever. i don't really care.
but once you decide to enter a tourney, it's less about fun and more about WINNING, thus the whole point of competing is to WIN, not to have fun.
and i really think that you're contradicting yourself when you say you are upset by people faulting others who are playing to have fun, yet in the last sentence you criticize people who play to win and say they should "find something else to do".

 

[Denzi]

Basketball player: Ref! Did you see that? He just poked me in the eyes! I can't see!

Referee: NO JOHNS!!

This could actually make B-ball more fun in some opinions.

 

[PK-ow!]

SK92 vs Plank is a prime example of douchbaggery. Why? Because Plank began planking as soon as the match started, and continued to plank his way to victory.

Had Plank played SK, had a great match and then did what he did during the last 30 sec or so, people would understand why he did it. The clock then came into play. That would have been the smart thing to do. But going into a match, tagging your opponant and then just running away is really lame.

This was stalling.

For the first part of the matches, anyway.
It seems like what we need are either rules, or (ideally) hacks, which enforce the notion that the 'edge' of the map is supposed to be like the side of a ring in actual fighting competition. You can't actually hang around the edge safely; it is by definition a bad place to put yourself against.
Brawl's stupid ledgegrab mechanics make this edge ridiculousness possible. Hanging around the edge, ideally, is supposed to not work, because you're trying to get back, because being at the edge is dangerous, and also, you can't fight from there.

The hack in my mind, btw, is that there is a second ledge timer, paralleling perhaps the limit on tether functionality, which provides an absolute limit on hanging at a ledge until you stand on the ground, as opposed to just the one timer which has you drop after a certain time spent uninterruptedly dangling, which no one does.
It makes physical sense and would eliminate the need for a messy ban as argued from M2K.

Alternately, why shouldn't we be able to say that a melee-only fighter can't hand around the ledge, since clearly he can't threaten the opponent from there? You're not coming up, but you've made it so the other guy's best move is to stay where he is? Stalemates draw games almost universally, except in cases where staling is actually considered losing, or the point system is such that drawing is about as bad as losing. Too bad drawing the match won't work in SSB, with trolls who may still just want to take their opponent out of brackets.

Imagine a Boxing match like that, guy tags his opponant, then proceeds to run away for the rest of the match. In theory, I guess you could do that. But you wont really see that in Pro boxing. And when you do , its pretty much laughed at and considered a joke by everyone.

It's because he would be stalling. Stalling is lame because (a) you're not engaging your opponent, in the sense of not contesting him, you're not seeking a victory; and also (b) You are playing the clock, which is ideally not supposed to be there (I don't know in the case of boxing, though). But most competitions have a timer only to ensure the game does end. You are supposed to win by beating your opponent, which comes about through applying the abilities which our rules are supposed to crystallize as our perception of what the game is.

Competitive console gaming is cool because the game as delivered is taken to be "what the game is," but we still have our concept of what it is to play a game when we sit down and pick up a controller, no matter what.

And that concept tells us stalling is not playing.

@da KID: I hope you're not suggesting that people can't have better ideas than others.

Does it matter why someone wants to pick at something? If it can be picked at substantially, then it really does have problems. But if the issues are such that there is a vast consensus that they can be patched without essentially changing anything, and/or the prevailing line of attack is just fallacy, you take your idea, ignore whoever is still wailing about it, and move on.
But only then. Before that, you're still putting your idea through the gauntlet, it is unreasonable to take it as 'good' before this battery.

 

[Tomkraven]

I do think that games should be played honorably and not using gay tactics only to win. If you want to win... play chess with a 1 year old. A good ,honorable match is waaaaay better than winning one by camping or planking or all those gay stuff. OK, you could argument that they use those tactics because money is on the line but, if you really want to make money then stop being so lazy to just move your fingers arround a controller and get a **** job. you dont make real money playing, you get it working like everyone else. so people should think a little more before saying that money or winning is > honor. If you play good and have fun while doing it then thats all that matters.

 

[_Phloat_]

I do think that games should be played honorably and not using gay tactics only to win. If you want to win... play chess with a 1 year old. A good ,honorable match is waaaaay better than winning one by camping or planking or all those gay stuff. OK, you could argument that they use those tactics because money is on the line but, if you really want to make money then stop being so lazy to just move your fingers arround a controller and get a **** job. you dont make real money playing, you get it working like everyone else. so people should think a little more before saying that money or winning is > honor. If you play good and have fun while doing it then thats all that matters.

I don't want to only win, I enjoy competition. Playing chess with a 1 year old gives me one of the two. If you want what your defintion of a fair match is, enforce those rules on your friends, not on the general community. I don't play competitively for money, I play it for the competition and the challenge.

Let me ask you this, if "honor" was somehow enforced, when would we draw the line? What is the, as you so eloquently said, "gayest" you can be? If there was a way to measure that. Lets say there was. If "gay" level 3 was banned, and the community never learned to beat it, then "gay" 2.9999 becomes the best strategy, and the game stagnates and dies as everyone hits "gay" 2.9999.

Honestly, its crap like this that should be in the boot thread. Throwing around subjective things like "fun", "gay" and "honor" does not a debater make.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I do think that games should be played honorably and not using gay tactics only to win. If you want to win... play chess with a 1 year old. A good ,honorable match is waaaaay better than winning one by camping or planking or all those gay stuff. OK, you could argument that they use those tactics because money is on the line but, if you really want to make money then stop being so lazy to just move your fingers arround a controller and get a **** job. you dont make real money playing, you get it working like everyone else. so people should think a little more before saying that money or winning is > honor. If you play good and have fun while doing it then thats all that matters.

ok this may be your point of view on this, HOWEVER, the people playing without the so-called "honor" aren't telling you how to play, why should you force them to have "honor" and "fun" playing the game. seriously, if you're looking for fun, DON'T go to tournies if you really hate "gay/cheap" tactics. just stay home and play friendlies. because the point of a tourney is to WIN. there is NO point of COMPETITION if people aren't playing for victory. im not saying that you can't have fun at tournies, because you can and many people, myself included, do, despite some of the cheap tactics such as planking used. im just saying that if you can't stand people using these tactics to win, maybe competitive brawl isn't for you.

 

[_Phloat_]

ok this may be your point of view on this, HOWEVER, the people playing without the so-called "honor" aren't telling you how to play, why should you force them to have "honor" and "fun" playing the game. seriously, if you're looking for fun, DON'T go to tournies if you really hate "gay/cheap" tactics. just stay home and play friendlies. because the point of a tourney is to WIN. there is NO point of COMPETITION if people aren't playing for victory. im not saying that you can't have fun at tournies, because you can and many people, myself included, do, despite some of the cheap tactics such as planking used. im just saying that if you can't stand people using these tactics to win, maybe competitive brawl isn't for you.

Exactly. Well said.

What if I told you that Lucario's Dair was unhonorable.

Sorry, you cant use it any more, my definition is law. Subjectivity is bad kids!

 

[Vv2]

Professional athletes play professional sports to make money. IF it was to entertain people, they'd play for free.

Teams that lose make a lot less money than teams that win. There's more money involved in one professional basketball game than in 100 Smash tournaments.

The only reason teams in professional sports don't stall or try cheap tactics is because THEY DON'T WORK in pro sports. The reason fouling doesn't happen until the end of the game is because players can't play if they foul more than a certain number of times. The reason they don't stall is because there is a shot clock, and because the other team will steal it eventually and get an easy score.

Cheap tactics don't work in sports. If they did, they would be used. Anyone remember the defensive hockey player that faceguarded the opposing goalie? It worked somewhat, until it was BANNED. That's right, they made a a rule against it because it hurt the game. SBR needs to step up and do the same for Brawl if it's such a huge problem. Players shouldn't have to choose between playing with honor and playing to win.

LoL at what you just said...."Professional athletes play professional sports to make money. IF it was to entertain people, they'd play for free."

Who do you think pays the athletes ? magical money trees?The franchise pays them...How you ask?by making profits....how do you make profits?You make sure people pay to see/own your stuff trust me when i say for the 12th time entertainment is the name of the game when was the last time the Toronto maple leafs won the cup? yet they have one of the largest incomes in the NHL... why? people are entertained by them and attend the games etc. there team is a goon squad on ice
Why do you think they allow things like end zones dances? its clearly a show of unsportsmanlike behavior BECAUSE its entertaining

 

[RyanPF]

LoL at what you just said...."Professional athletes play professional sports to make money. IF it was to entertain people, they'd play for free."

Who do you think pays the athletes ? magical money trees?The franchise pays them...How you ask?by making profits....how do you make profits?You make sure people pay to see/own your stuff trust me when i say for the 12th time entertainment is the name of the game when was the last time the Toronto maple leafs won the cup? yet they have one of the largest incomes in the NHL... why? people are entertained by them and attend the games etc. there team is a goon squad on ice
Why do you think they allow things like end zones dances? its clearly a show of unsportsmanlike behavior BECAUSE its entertaining

*sigh*
Ask a professional athlete why he plays the game. If he says "to entertain people", I will shave my head and and paint my eyebrows green.

In one point, you're right: franchises are out to make money by entertaining people. But the players don't care about entertaining people, or at least not near as much as they care about winning.

To sum it all up, in the competitive scene, sports are played to win and Brawl is played to win. The difference between sports and Brawl is that sports have rules to ensure games are played honorably. When there are rules outlawing cheap tactics, you can play with honor and play to win at the same time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I do think that games should be played honorably and not using gay tactics only to win. If you want to win... play chess with a 1 year old. A good ,honorable match is waaaaay better than winning one by camping or planking or all those gay stuff. OK, you could argument that they use those tactics because money is on the line but, if you really want to make money then stop being so lazy to just move your fingers arround a controller and get a **** job. you dont make real money playing, you get it working like everyone else. so people should think a little more before saying that money or winning is > honor. If you play good and have fun while doing it then thats all that matters.

exactly what i was trying to say.

if you are going to be that cutthroat just to win in a video game, you would be much better off in the business world where underhanded and immoral tactics are the norm (and in some cases, a prerequisite)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Exactly. Well said.

What if I told you that Lucario's Dair was unhonorable.

Sorry, you cant use it any more, my definition is law. Subjectivity is bad kids!

what is it that that leader/boss guy in assassins creed always said?

it went along the lines of
nothing is true, everything is subjective.

the thing is that, when a majority of people, including the people perpetrating the action say that some thing is dishonorable, even if it is subjective, its most likely the right conclusion

 

[XxBlackxX]

what is it that that leader/boss guy in assassins creed always said?

it went along the lines of
nothing is true, everything is subjective.

the thing is that, when a majority of people, including the people perpetrating the action say that some thing is dishonorable, even if it is subjective, its most likely the right conclusion

****, man, i hate it when people bring up majority when debating. i mean seriously, if everyone else is gonna be an idiot, you're gonna be one too? btw, i don't mean this in offense of anyone, but seriously, saying "most people belive this, therefore it is right" is stupid! and it adds absolutely NOTHING to your side of the argument.
sorry if that sounded unnecessarily angrily

and heres my response to you from last page, you might have missed it cuz you never responded:

like i've said, yes, the point of the game is to have fun. however, playing a game COMPETITIVELY is NOT to have fun. if you want fun, stay home and play friendlies with your friends, go all items on, all stages unbbaned, and play falcon dittos all day or whatever. i don't really care.
but once you decide to enter a tourney, it's less about fun and more about WINNING, thus the whole point of competing is to WIN, not to have fun.
and i really think that you're contradicting yourself when you say you are upset by people faulting others who are playing to have fun, yet in the last sentence you criticize people who play to win and say they should "find something else to do".

 

[ftl]

like i've said, yes, the point of the game is to have fun. however, playing a game COMPETITIVELY is NOT to have fun.

Nah, that's not really true. You're misinterpeting things.

Many tournament players "play to win" because they find that more fun than just casual play. Why else would you play to win if it was less fun? It's not like we are actually making a living off this game, it's not a job that we HAVE to do or else. Perhaps the top couple of people in each area who can go to tournaments, collect their $, and leave - those people might stay in it just for the money. But everyone else - they're in it because competitive play is fun, more so than casual play. The fight for the W is quite enjoyable, and not really something you can replicate outside of a setting with money on the line or prizes at stake.

 

[Veil2222]

If anyone does something I or the other officials running my tournaments see as dishonorable, they are warned, then kicked out of the group. Both in and out of game, if you're a *******, you don't play with us, simple as that. If you want honor in your game, get to know the tournament runners in your area, get their opinion, and express your own. This is not an issue that can be universally decided upon, and will always be up to the tournament runner. House rules trump majority national precedent.

 

[da K.I.D.]

****, man, i hate it when people bring up majority when debating. i mean seriously, if everyone else is gonna be an idiot, you're gonna be one too? btw, i don't mean this in offense of anyone, but seriously, saying "most people belive this, therefore it is right" is stupid! and it adds absolutely NOTHING to your side of the argument.
sorry if that sounded unnecessarily angrily
thats not exactly what i said. what i said was that a majority can be wrong, but they have a better chance of getting it right than one guy on his own.
and heres my response to you from last page, you might have missed it cuz you never responded:

like i've said, yes, the point of the game is to have fun. however, playing a game COMPETITIVELY is NOT to have fun. if you want fun, stay home and play friendlies with your friends, go all items on, all stages unbbaned, and play falcon dittos all day or whatever. i don't really care.
but once you decide to enter a tourney, it's less about fun and more about WINNING, thus the whole point of competing is to WIN, not to have fun.
and i really think that you're contradicting yourself when you say you are upset by people faulting others who are playing to have fun, yet in the last sentence you criticize people who play to win and say they should "find something else to do".

i think ftl summed up my thoughts pretty well. but to add to that:
if winning takes precedence over fun in these things, than i think those people are putting too much emphasis on winning and would be better off in a situation where winning at all costs is more universal. i.e. the business world.
and i wasnt critizising, just saying that those people would be better served, in positions that cater to their mindset better.

 

[Izaw]

Guys -.- whats funny and what you DON'T know. Is that. MELEE was campy too before. Then, after 2 YEARS, remember this 2 years. It got more advanced and players took their time to find new openings.

Cause yea, everytime I play Brawl, or watch others play Brawl, I notice that the players each day learn a new way of approaching and playing the game. Trust me, the advanced techniques that are found in Brawl for each character has actually been found pretty **** fast, it did not go this fast for Melee, SO GIVE BRAWL SOME TIME AND EFFORT. Cause I personally never lose to camper and I play Link so I really don't camp myself.

Also, I DONT play ONLY Brawl, I play Brawl AND Melee, still mostly Brawl, I only play Melee when Im bored. And its not like Melee doesnt have BROKEN things in the game. Fox Waveshining is like DDDs chaingrabs, Shieks chaingrabs in Melee is as broken as Shieks Tiltlock in Brawl and not to mention the most broken thing in Melee, that even takes the price over Metaknight. PEACH, her Dsmash. Now THAT's broken.

Melee is better to people right now because Melee have been given its TIME and EFFORT, wich Brawl really haven't. Remember Melee took 2 years.

 

[Yuna]

Guys -.- whats funny and what you DON'T know. Is that. MELEE was campy too before. Then, after 2 YEARS, remember this 2 years. It got more advanced and players took their time to find new openings.

The scene was young, tiny, n00by. Melee was less like 64 than Brawl is like Melee.

A small group of n00bish players with very little understanding of technical play and familiar with a game very different from the game they were now playing started out with Melee.

The scene grew, items were banned and people got better. 7 years down the line, the scene is massive and the skill level high. And Brawl was no revolution. Despite the differences, it's still very much the same.

We won't magically be playing a different metagame in 2 years time.

 

[ungulateman]

Listen to Izaw. He speaks the words of the wise.

Plus, Brawl+ will solve all our problems. :D

 

[IrArby]

Smash is something that people take seriously. Yea its fun but when I'm training its not what I would come out and say "Yea training is fun" Really, its more like its something thats engaging. I recently started playing a First Person Shooter which I never do and everyone and their brother has been kicking my *** online. I wouldn't call that having fun but I'm engaged and want to get better (even if its just to prove a point to myself that I could be good at this). Smash is no different.

And yes, there are ways to exploit time in sports (how many football games end with the QB taking a knee?). Really the time limit is their to make sure the match ends and the tournament doesn't last a week or w/e. We have to come up with limiting regulations however even these new boundaries will be tested. As somone said, if a Gay level of 3.0 is banned and 2.9999999 becomes the best strategy then the obvious conclusion must be that a certain amount of subjectivity has to be introduced. Games need refs even if refs aren't always right.
Still, if you employ Gay Level 2.88 and get called for using it in excess of 3.0 or more then that'll discourage people from even going near the unfair limit. Sure some people will get away with a 3.2 but they won't make off doing a 4.0 which is the real goal ultimately. It'll never be completely objective but we must do our best I think.

 

[Izaw]

We won't magically be playing a different metagame in 2 years time.

That's funny that you can see in the future.

Dude seriously, just drop it. Lägg av xD. MELEE is even advancing the Metagame TODAY.

Brawl WILL change and advance its metagame and playstyle just like Melee, AND Brawl HAS already had alot of changes.

Compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZgp_tM53ic

With http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t0ibKTOxts

Now this is just only a small example too. Remember has only gone 9-10 months between these matches.

 

[Yuna]

That's funny that you can see in the future.

Brawl WILL change and advance its metagame and playstyle just like Melee, AND Brawl HAS already had alot of changes...

Way to be a hypocrite.

Also, Brawl has barely changed. Brawl is very shallow. There's not much to change. Melee's metagame is barely growing today, but Melee has hidden depth. Brawl, not so much. At least not any more than Melee had.

So we have a lot of already familiar depth we already knew of from the start. Tell me, what exactly has changed so drastically in the past few months?

Now this is just only a small example too. Remember has only gone 9-10 months between these matches.

Of course we were pretty bad at it when the game first came out. But then a few months down the line, we were playing it the same way we're playing it today.

 

[IrArby]

Posted for angst. @Izaw: Wow No one can infinite any char using Fox's waveshine without a wall. D3 has 3 standing CG infinites at least (I think) and he can easily CG many chars across the whole stage some of them regardless or their %. Shieks CGs in Melee would put you into a high enough % to knock you off and edgeguard you. Not so at all with the new tiltlock since you can have a much higher % and easily survive in Brawl. Not sure why I'm arguing for this NOT being broken in Brawl but whatever. And WTF NO ONE ever even thought about banning Peach's Dsmash. If you think its broken you must be CC them. Its not at all broken nor is it easy to set up for. Most people have given up the "Give Brawl a chance argument. Its still very new" by now for a good reason. It simply doesn't hold water as Yuna said.

@ ungulateman: Brawl+ will solve all our problems once everyone makes an official national tourney standard list of hacks that every single tournament Wii will be equipped with. Good luck with that.

Sorry for sounding overly angry but I some stuff is just starting to be ridiculous.

 

[Izaw]

If you actually don't see the diffrence in the gameplay and metagame between those 2 videos it just proves to me that you dont fully understand the depth of the game or take enough effort into the game.

Also the first match that i linked to you that was old, is not a match that was recorded when Brawl CAME OUT as a game, its a match that was recorded in the time where poeple where STARTING to bash Brawl for being bad and not advanced at all, when that video came out that was what people though the gameplay would look like and stay like forever. But it changed MORE or LESS. And why maybe its a "small" change for you is because dude, look around, like I said, not many people take their time and effort to advance it and make it better.

Also if you want to give up on Brawl. Fine. Im not gonna force you to play it, but dont bash it for beeing a bad game and broken just because it hasen't been fully explored like Melee. Cause alot of broken stuff does exist in Melee.

 

[IrArby]

As far as "broken stuff" goes I usually use specific examples when referencing "stuff" in order to illustrate the point. You pointed out some "stuff" and I commented on that. If you've got other "stuff" please share we can discuss it. Most of the broken stuff in Melee isn't character specific so everyone can do it and its thus not broken.

I reference the guy to much but please ask M2K if he or anyone he knows is finding great, good, or even really useful stuff in Brawl. Last I checked he was still winning most tournaments and he'd have to be ahead of at least most people when it comes to new discoveries in order to stay on top. The fact that we are hacking it several months into the game to make it more playable is proof enough that there are plenty of people still working at this game and they've more or less run out of potential to work with.

I really am done Brawl Bashing and I never meant to start so as I said earlier we need regulation and punishments for certain things. Rules are established and upheld by people for the good of people. Sometimes you'll get the short end of the stick since no ruleset is perfect but theres got to be one none the less for things like ledgecamping or the game will completely detioriate.

 

[St. Viers]

IrArby: fox could waveshine infinate Link, and peach I believe, because he could reverse the direction he was shining them. Learn2melee =P

re: the chance of metagame changing, I'd say that there is no way to be sure it will, or that it won't. There is no reason to assume that brawl is shallower than melee, and saying that melee experience has given us such a lead in discovering metagame potential is bogus. I's like saying that playing tennis means you understand ping-pong completely; you may have an initial advantage, but you still have to discover a lot more to actually play ping-pong well.

 

[Izaw]

IrArby: fox could waveshine infinate Link, and peach I believe, because he could reverse the direction he was shining them. Learn2melee =P

re: the chance of metagame changing, I'd say that there is no way to be sure it will, or that it won't. There is no reason to assume that brawl is shallower than melee, and saying that melee experience has given us such a lead in discovering metagame potential is bogus. I's like saying that playing tennis means you understand ping-pong completely; you may have an initial advantage, but you still have to discover a lot more to actually play ping-pong well.

There we go, thank you

 

[Yuna]

If you actually don't see the diffrence in the gameplay and metagame between those 2 videos it just proves to me that you dont fully understand the depth of the game or take enough effort into the game.

What part of "Of course we're playing the game differently today than from when it was first released. However, the metagame hasn't developed that much these past few months." was confusing to you?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

IrArby: fox could waveshine infinate Link, and peach I believe, because he could reverse the direction he was shining them. Learn2melee =P

You can smash DI out of that.

 

[Yuna]

You can smash DI out of that.

Not as Link and Peach. It's just horribly hard to do consistently (but still humanly possible). Other characters can Smash DI out of it. Link and Peach cannot.

 

[RyanPF]

Also the first match that i linked to you that was old, is not a match that was recorded when Brawl CAME OUT as a game, its a match that was recorded in the time where poeple where STARTING to bash Brawl for being bad and not advanced at all

What part of "Of course we're playing the game differently today than from when it was first released. However, the metagame hasn't developed that much these past few months." was confusing to you?

Reading the other person's post before quoting it: you're doin' it wrong.

Izaw makes a good point. You can't rule out the possibility that the metagame will change in the future.

 

[Yuna]

Reading the other person's post before quoting it: you're doin' it wrong.

Izaw makes a good point. You can't rule out the possibility that the metagame will change in the future.

"You can't predict the future" is a ****ty argument that doesn't deserve addressing.

You can make the argument that "it's too early", but you cannot say "What if things change". If so, why should we ban anything, ever? What if in the future, someone finds a way to get out of D3's infinites or ways around planking or ways around anything people are whining about banning?

Using the logic that that won't happen, we must assume that the matchups won't change much, either.

We can only work with what we have, not speculate on what we might have in the future.

And if we're going to ban things using the logic "It makes more characters viable", banning Top Tier would be a very good start.

 

[RyanPF]

"You can't predict the future" is a ****ty argument that doesn't deserve addressing.

You can make the argument that "it's too early", but you cannot say "What if things change". If so, why should we ban anything, ever? What if in the future, someone finds a way to get out of D3's infinites or ways around planking or ways around anything people are whining about banning?

Using the logic that that won't happen, we must assume that the matchups won't change much, either.

We can only work with what we have, not speculate on what we might have in the future.

And if we're going to ban things using the logic "It makes more characters viable", banning Top Tier would be a very good start.

Ban? When did I say anything about ban?

EDIT: I mean just now. I mentioned banning planking earlier, but in a different context not involving the future.

 

[marthmaster04]

Bannin camping could be a good solution instead of bannin chaingrabs, that way nobody gets butthurt.....PSSSH what am i talking about, the smash community is ABOUT elitism and butthurt

 

[kr3wman]

Bannin camping could be a good solution instead of bannin chaingrabs, that way nobody gets butthurt.....PSSSH what am i talking about, the smash community is ABOUT elitism and butthurt

Most competitive gaming communities are about elitism and getting butthurt.

You'd be surprised at how the Smash one is one of the least ones...

one.

 

[Yuna]

Ban? When did I say anything about ban?

EDIT: I mean just now. I mentioned banning planking earlier, but in a different context not involving the future.

You didn't. But you jumped into a conversation that was originally about banning D3's infinite (among other things). See, this is why people shouldn't read just one part of an argument and assume they know everything that came before it.

You seem reasonable and intelligent enough. Had you read what came before the post you replied to, you would've gotten the greater picture.

 

[marthmaster04]

Most competitive gaming communities are about elitism and getting butthurt.

You'd be surprised at how the Smash one is one of the least ones...

one.

Lol i know too well, i used to play 64 online. I got to meet the street fighter/kof community alll the time >>