Pikachu Secondary Discussion - Everyone completed!

[K 2]

It seems like we still need to discuss a little bit, so I'll wait on writing the final discussion.

The only problem I have with marth is that he loses pretty badly to MK, and MK's are very common. Even though if falco goes even with dk/snake/zamus, your worst matchup would be 50:50. With marth, all your matchups would be even, except MK, which goes 65:35 against pika and marth.

 

[KuroKitt10]

DK, Snake, and Zamus all do considerable better than pika against MK.

Does anyone else have any other suggestions for secondaries? Any objections against Galax's list? I'll create a list of 5 or so characters and a summary like galax's post on post 39 when we are done discussing.

I, personally, am not a fan of DK's game - however, from what I understand, he fairs well against all of Pika's bad match-ups, which is the most important factor. I think DK is a good addition to the list.

Snake is just an all around good character - he's solid. I also feel like he compliments Pika's play style well; as someone had mentioned earlier, your game as Pikachu will likely improve if you pick up Snake. I think Snake is a good addition to the list.

Zamus has heaps of untapped potential, in my opinion. She takes a while to learn, and is quite tricky even when you do learn her - which I feel is what's reflecting the skewed match-up numbers on the other boards. People are just underestimating her strength right now. Based on the ZSS boards, her match-ups are decent against Pika's bad ones. I think Zero Suit Samus would be a good addition to the list.

I think it's a little short sighted of us to not Include Meta Knight on the list. Yes, I understand that he would go well with almost any character, but I don't understand why that's a reason to exclude him from Pikachu's list of good secondaries. The fact is, he IS a good secondary for Pikachu, and so I feel he should be on the list. And for anyone who's worried about Tiers, Snake is also high up on the tiers, and yet we're pretty much unanimously calling him a great secondary. Meta Knight SHOULD be on this list.

As for a fifth, I'm unsure. I agree with K2 about Marth. That bad match-up against MK really hurts Marth. If Meta Knight weren't so **** common, it would be easier to over look, but as is, he demands a good counter, and Marth is just NOT it.

Meow!

 

[Bouse]

It's ZSS not ZZS. It's not Zero Zoot Suit... or Zero Zuit Samus...

Edit: NTM ZSS is definitely a strong candidate against most of Pika's bad match-ups. She also ***** the crap out of Fox, so... yay Space Animals murderin'.

 

[K 2]

# Kitt: The whole point of this discussion is to determine a good secondary for pikachu. MK is obviously a good choice, so there is no point in discussing him. Yes, I'm going to include him in the top 5 summary once this is finished, but there is no point arguing whether he should or should not be a secondary for pikachu, since he's obviously one of the best choices for pikachu.

@ Galax: Even though falco would be able to pin pikachu and all his secondaries with a 55:45 advantage/disadvantage, our secondary choices are the best we can get. Having no bad matchups between two characters is a VERY lethal combination, its almost like one metaknight.

 

[gallax]

Even though falco would be able to pin pikachu and all his secondaries with a 55:45 advantage/disadvantage, our secondary choices are the best we can get. Having no bad matchups between two characters is a VERY lethal combination, its almost like one metaknight.

true. very true. but does that mean you are going to turn to MK everytime a falco appears? a falco main should be able to beat a snake/DK/zamus secondary. if you are going to turn to MK every time then go for it. jump on the band waggon. if you are one those people who will use MK to win in a tourney then go for it.

but if you are one of those people who will not do that...well then you have a big problem. falco can CG>spike you to your death with pika/snake/Dk/(im not sure about zamus). pika is a little harder since we can dair at a certain percent and get out of the cg. but, falco ***** all of our secondaries expect MK.

i wasnt saying include marth as a secondary...i was saying add him as a speciality character. meant for only a certain matchup, which in this case would be falco.

 

[KuroKitt10]

# Kitt: The whole point of this discussion is to determine a good secondary for pikachu. MK is obviously a good choice, so there is no point in discussing him. Yes, I'm going to include him in the top 5 summary once this is finished, but there is no point arguing whether he should or should not be a secondary for pikachu, since he's obviously one of the best choices for pikachu.
[snip]

Oh, good. I was worried that he wasn't going to be on the list over some illogical reason - which would have been terrible. But yes, not much discussion beyond that is really needed for Meta Knight =P

true. very true. but does that mean you are going to turn to MK everytime a falco appears? a falco main should be able to beat a snake/DK/zamus secondary. if you are going to turn to MK every time then go for it. jump on the band waggon. if you are one those people who will use MK to win in a tourney then go for it.

but if you are one of those people who will not do that...well then you have a big problem. falco can CG>spike you to your death with pika/snake/Dk/(im not sure about zamus). pika is a little harder since we can dair at a certain percent and get out of the cg. but, falco ***** all of our secondaries expect MK.

i wasnt saying include marth as a secondary...i was saying add him as a speciality character. meant for only a certain matchup, which in this case would be falco.

I see what Galax is saying, and I think that he's got a decent point. You could almost think of including Marth in the list as analogous to mentioning some of Pikachu's more situational techniques. It's the sort of thing that is good to know, and great to be able to use for when those situations come around - but definitely lower on the list of priorities. I don't think that Marth should actually be ON the list, but more that he's worth a mention AFTER the list - namely as an alternative to Meta Knight for a Falco match-up.

Meow.

 

[K 2]

Galax, I see your point, but do you really want to learn three characters to cover you matchups? I believe pika:falco is fairly close. They both have a 50% CG on each other, and while it is a tough fight, its definately winnable by pikachu.

 

[gallax]

thats why i said it should be a SPECIALDARY character. not on the list of secondaries to learn. i think everyone is in agreement as to who the best choices are for a secondary for pikachu.

but i would like to make a point...there are over 30 chars in the game. this isnt melee where you have a select few. we have more choices...and far less AT's to learn. and as far as im concerned i WOULD learn three chars if they cover my matchups more extensively and give me a better chance at winning. i like marths style, therefore i learned his game. i use 3 chars in tourneys.

but i do realize that everyone is not like me. which is why it should be at the very least to include marth in a special category. if people say that they have a problem with falco as pikachu and cannot win with him nor his/her secondaries, what should (s)he do? (s)he should come here and see what our matchups RECOMMEND to do.

it would be a total waste to not mention it anywhere. by not mentioning it would have far worse consequences that if you do mention it. the worst that could happen is someone could say i cant play as marth and be in the same situation before. at leasat there is a chance that someon could pick him and and say i like marth...i think i will use him. which would be awesome.

and i also have one more example which to include marth. this is snake. as we all know snake is top tier. pika has the ability to beat snake. but lets face it. a few ftilts and a jab here or there with a random nade and then mix in an utilt and boom there goes a stock. its so easy to lose this match. now lets say you use snake/DK/zamus. now if the snake can beat your pika, he can beat your secondary. Dk would be harder to kill...but still killable. this is going to happen to someone sooner or later. you will find a snake who can beat you and you pika/secondary. what do you do now? you need to play as someone who has the advantage on snake. you aren't going to choose MK since most snake are designed to play them and thats their most common matchup. you should choose marth. marth can destroy snake. marth can space himself so that he is out of tilt range. his spotdodge is fast enough to spotdodge tilts, his dancing blades combo (if you use the down b ending to dancing blades) will push snake away so that anything he uses will not hit you(thats not even mentioning how effective his DB is since it REFRESHES his moveset and is just plain effective for damage), his dolphin slash can get you out of combos(jab>ftilt one) and he can actually kill snake at lower percentages since its marth and he is a killing machine.

marth is an excellent choice, not only for falco. he is good against ROB too. he is really a speciality character that you should really think about. i mean truly sit down and decide whether or to learn him. this isnt coming from a biased position either. if you think so then stop reading this and get off SWF. truly, from a pika player who sincerely wants to help, think about using marth. please include him in your thoughts.

TY.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Use Snake for MK, Marth and G&W.

Use Dedede for Snake.

Use MK for ROB and Falco.

Done.

 

[KuroKitt10]

Use Snake for MK, Marth and G&W.

Use Dedede for Snake.

Use MK for ROB and Falco.

Done.

I think the goal was to decide who makes the best secondary - that is, so that one doesn't need to fully learn 3+ characters in order to have decent counters for each opponent.

Also, I think that mentioning DDD is a little ridiculous. Why learn a brand new character simply for a sole match-up, especially when Pikachu already goes even (or slightly in Pikachu's favor) with Snake.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Debatable.

But, feel free to omit Dedede then.

 

[Pikabunz]

Isn't Diddy one of Pika's hardest match ups?

 

[K 2]

Galax, do you want me to create a list of three recommended secondaries, followed by another list of two "specialdaries", or characters that would be extremely beneficial if you learned them, but not necessary to theoretically cover all our matchups?

hmm...Good point about diddy. He has a hard time against Luigi (wtf?) and people with reflecters, but I think snake handles diddy well, right? Considering diddy has no kill moves and snake is one of the heaviest characters in the game. Plus, Snake is not forced to approach since he has nades.

 

[KuroKitt10]

Galax, do you want me to create a list of three recommended secondaries, followed by another list of two "specialdaries", or characters that would be extremely beneficial if you learned them, but not necessary to theoretically cover all our matchups?

I, personally, think that this is a great idea. I know there are people who wont mind picking up 3 characters (I, myself, am one such person) and it would be a good resource for those who can utilize the info.

Meow.

 

[K 2]

I wouldn't mind picking up three characters. I already use three characters really well and I can use 5 more or so decently.

 

[gallax]

aahhh...at last. peace in the forums. yes. create a matchup section as specialdary. actually. you should let me include it in my character matchups thread. that way its localized.

 

[K 2]

Hmm...I want to put a summary for 5 or so characters on the OP of this thread. You can also include it in your character matchups discussion (btw, who are we discussing now? I haven't seen any recent matchup discussion threads.)Am I going to write it (this is what I was planning to do), or are you going to write it and let me quote you?

 

[supermario27mx]

In my case DK would be the best choice as a secondary. DK as stated can handle pika's bad matchups but gets ***** by chaingrabbers. I currently second Kirby which due to his matchup roster isnt the best choice for pikachu from a tactical point of view, but he's fun so I dont care. If I were to pick up DK as a secondary that would cover all matchups since Kirby goes even w/ diddy and can handle chaingrabers like falco and DDD. And as stated DK fares well against pika's bad matchups. All cases are different so look at the holes in your individual matchups and decide what character can cover those holes.
In my case DK seems to be the best choice.

 

[gallax]

im finishing lucario right now as we blog. the next one should be up shortly. and i dont care how we do it. oyu can write your thing and i can post it on mine as well as write a brief synopsis of my own.

 

[K 2]

Ok, sounds good.

 

[K 2]

Ugh, Sorry it took so long for me to write up a synposis for each secondary. I've only finished 3 out of 5. I'll get the other ones up as soon as I can. -.-

 

[gallax]

just read what you did...good stuff.

 

[Ussi]

Snake's aerials do 28% damage... and are easy to SDI out of... but are still mad powerful.. uair is just a sexy move to hate if its being used against you.

 

[KayLo!]

Looks good, K 2! (Same to everyone who contributed.)

I'm thinking about changing my secondaries... AGAIN... so this will help out a lot.

 

[KuroKitt10]

Sounds pretty **** good to me! The only thing that I think is a little confusing, is that it seems as if you are touting snake as the best match-up against Meta-knight, however the numbers are identical against MK for all three.

Something I think is kinda cool, though, is that all three seem to fit into a nice little spectrum! They all have the same match-up against Marth and MK, but then Snake seems to be better for players having trouble with G&W, Zero Suit seems to be best for players having trouble with ROB, and then DK is somewhere in the middle with no strong advantages, but no disadvantages.

Very cool =)

Mrew.

 

[K 2]

All of them are good secondaries (+ MK and Marth). I'm just presenting all the facts I know about each character and I'm letting you guys choose your secondaries based on the info I've given you and your personal preferences.

I'll put up MK and Marth later.

 

[K 2]

I finally finished! Please read the whole OP.

 

[Zylar]

VERY helpful and informative. :D
I'll probably change my secondary from Ike to one of these once I go to a tourney. (I second Ike for kicks. ;D +he feels good to use. XD)

I feel you're MK section was on spot!

 

[KuroKitt10]

Excellent, I love it =) Good job, K2!

 

[entY8]

A good read and a fair summary for the discussion so far :-)

Btw, the link to Snake's guide is messed up.

 

[K 2]

I just fixed it =)

 

[iSpiN]

I rather go Sonic for ROB, Ness, and Lucas.

I also use Snake so I guess I'm covered on the rest. ;D

 

[Pika_Cam]

I just picked up DK as a secondary to my Pikachu, but now I can't figure out the Olimar matchup. According to the DK boards, Olimar dominates Donkey Kong. He also has the advantage over Pikachu!

 

[iSpiN]

Olimar sucks but he can be dominated by diagonal attackers. Ex. Peach, Weegee, MK, Marth. All of those characters are great for Olimar in my experience.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

olimar has a slight advantadge, 55-45. he is hard but not overwhelming, certainly not a counter.

 

[K 2]

Pikachu can take out an Olimar. It's fairly even, so it goes down to character skill. You just need time to learn the Olimar matchup. Once you learn how to beat his camping and grabbing, you will dominate him.

 

[Ussi]

I have a suggestion for a specidary:

Zelda/Sheik. Sheik has a 60:40 advantage on Olimar and Zelda is like 60:40 against Diddy. Two annoying match ups.

Course G&W will dominant Sheik/Zelda, Marth still has the advantage, and MK also has the solid advantage. Zelda does well against ROB however, like 55:45

 

[The Fluff]

7 month grave digging time (sorry)

I was looking at some numbers, and I think DDD should be added to the list of secondaries. He goes 45:55 with MK, 55:45 with G&W, 60:40 on Marth, and 55:45 on ROB. If pikachu can go ~50:50 with Falco, DDD would work very well as a secondary.

 

[gamesuxcard]

Wow, I had no idea this thread existed. I alt ZSS and GaW. ZSS is a really nice seconday for pikas imo, I picked her up for the Marth matchup. She did take a while to get used to though, at least in my case.