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Pikachu Secondary Discussion - Everyone completed!

K 2

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Pikachu Secondary Discussion!


This is complete! Under each character, I have four sections. The first section has matchup ratios between the proposed secondary and pikachu's hard matchups. The second section describes the matchups, how they do in tourneys, and the learning curve. The third section contains a brief synopsis about the character. It describes the character a bit and draws similarities and differences between that character and pikachu. The fourth section contains a link to two useful threads: A Guide to the character, and The character's matchup thread.

This is divided into two sections: A secondary and specialdary section. Under the secondary section, there are four characters that are recommended secondaries for pikachu, based on their matchups against pikachu's counters. Under the specialdary section, there is only one character as of now, but that character will counter matchups that pikachu may or may not have trouble with. Those matchups are listed as 50:50 with pikachu, but they can be a pain for pikachu, so these specialdaries can hard counter those matchups.

We are NOT finished discussing. I will keep this updated as we go through matchups and as our metagame develops. Also, I would like to add some more characters to the specialdaries section.

Here's a poll of the pikachu community as to what pika's best secondaries are: Pikachu Secondary Poll

I personally recommend the secondaries in this order:

1. MK
2. Snake
3. DK
4. ZSS


Secondaries:



Snake:

The Stats:

vs Marth (55:45)
vs MK (45:55)
vs G&W (60:40)
vs ROB (40:60)

Snake has been voted by the pikachu community as the best seconadary for pikachu. Snake beats G&W really, really bad, he goes fairly even with Marth and MK, and he gets countered by ROB and DDD. Pikachu can handle DDD easily, but they both seem to have a bit of trouble with ROB, which is the only hole in this defense. However, That is not a huge problem, since a MK counter is very vital, due to MK's popularity at tournaments, and since ROBs are far less common than MK's.

Playing Snake will teach you to utilize your tilts, to optimize your return to the stage, and to properly react out of your shield. Snake is a brute powerhouse with tilts that do 21% and an aerial that does 28%. He has multiple kill moves, but his most used (and easiest to land) kill move is his utilt, kill midwieghts the in the lower 100's. The problem with learning Snake is he has very slow aerials, which is almost unbearable for pikachu players, who tend to rely on aerials more than tilts. Snake also has a high learning curve, which implies he takes a long time to master.

Useful Threads:

Snake Matchup Thread

Into the Fray - A Snake Survival Guide

DK:

The Stats:

vs Marth (50:50)
vs MK (45:55)
vs G&W (50:50)
vs ROB (50:50)

DK is theoretically our best secondary (excluding MK), with no bad matchups between him and pikachu. He goes even with all of pikachu's bad matchups, which leaves no counters for this team. He doesn't take too long to learn, which is a plus. DK goes even with MK, which is the closest you are going to get to an MK counter.

I don't know much about DK. I do know that he has a really good bair, long ranged tilts, and a great grab game. DK can greatly help Pikachu out, but they are very different. Pikachu is a fast, nimple combo'er with an annoying projectile and an amazing recovery, while DK is rather large, clumsy, and projectileless, and has a terrible vertical recovery, but with many powerful kill moves. They do have similarities however. Both have good aerials, a good grab game, and reliable kill moves.

Useful Threads:

DK Matchup Thread

DK: 101 A Primer for Newcomers

Zero Suit Samus:

The Stats:

vs Marth (50:50)
vs MK (45:55)
vs G&W (45:55)
vs ROB (60:40)

ZSS goes even, or has a slight disadvantage against Marth, MK, and G&W. There are some board discrepancies on the matchup ratios, but they are fairly accurate (+ or - 5 points). ZSS beats out ROB, but she goes near even with MK, which is really important in tournaments. ZSS has a HUGE learning curve. It takes a long time to get accustomed to her moves, recovery, and playstyle.

ZSS has incredible range on her moves, and she has huge stun on her dsmash and neutral b, which allows her to pull off some nice combos. However, the thing I can't stand about ZSS is that she doesn't have reliable kill moves. Her main kill moves are side b and bair, both which doesn't kill until well past 120%. Contrary to popular belief, she is not easily gimped. Her nice second jump, down b, and up b boost will usually ensure her recovery back to the stage.

Useful Threads:

ZSS Matchup Thread

ZSS Guide

Meta Knight

The Stats:

vs Marth (65:35)
vs MK (50:50)
vs G&W (60:40)
vs ROB (60:40)

MK is...well MK. He destroys all of pikachu's hard matchups. He beats out all Marth, G&W, ROB by at least 60-40. He goes even with himself, which may present a problem at tourneys, since an MK main will usually beat an MK secondary. However, if you get good enough at MK dittos, you may be able to beat MKs at tourneys. MK is really easy to learn, so if you need a quick fix for your bad matchups, MK is your man.

MK has fast lagless attacks, an amazing gimping game, a great grab games, a godly recovery, extremely reliable kill moves. There's hardly anything wrong with MK, but the problem is that almost everyone who goes to tourneys have tons of MK matchup experience. I don't feel that I need to say much about MK, since everyone already knows a lot about him.

Useful Threads:

Victory is My Destiny - A Guide to Meta Knight

Meta Knight's Revenge - The Official MK Matchup Thread



Specialdaries:



Marth:

The Stats:

vs Marth (50:50)
vs MK (35:65)
vs G&W (55:45)
vs ROB (50:50)
* vs Falco (60:40)

Marth goes even or has a slight advantage against G&W and ROB. He gets beat by MK pretty badly, but Marth is a good Falco counter. If you have trouble with Falco as pikachu, I recommend that you pick up Marth. All of pikachu's ideal secondaries get countered by Falco. The Snake:Marth matchup ratios always have the advantage in Snake's favor, but a good Marth can out space and out prioritize Snake with Marth's disjointed hitboxes. I think this matchup is fairly even, so it goes down to the skill of the player. Marth against Snake is usually better than MK against Snake, since Snakes are designed to fight MKs.

Marth teaches you to space properly. Marth and Pikachu share many similar characteristics: They both love their fair, fsmash has similar range, dtilt is often used as a spacing too. Dolphin Slash and Dancing Blade OoS is way too good for Marth. DB also refreshes marth's moveset as well. My problem with marth, besides getting killed by MK, is that its hard to land kill moves. Tipper fsmash kills at 70 or 80%, but its incredibly hard to land that. Untipper fsmash, dsmash, usmash, utilt, and his other kill moves don't kill until 120% at least.

Useful Threads:

Marth Matchup Thread

A List of Marth Guides
 

Ussi

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Ike :D Cause that's who I use.. well I 2nd Pikachu so.. well 2nding Pikachu is great for Ike.. I hope it could work the other way around >____> Good for those who don't want to use high tiers
 

gallax

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actually falco is up there for pika too as one of the hardest.

lets see. snake is good vs all of those. marth is good against snake though. i like snake...even though he is my main. using snake has helped me use my tilts as a pika player and has allowed me to learn how to shield properly.

marth is also a good option. many good matchups. i dont like gaw as much. his matchups just dont bode well with pikas.

i dont see why lucario wouldnt be a good secondary though.
 

Ussi

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actually falco is up there for pika too as one of the hardest.

lets see. snake is good vs all of those. marth is good against snake though. i like snake...even though he is my main. using snake has helped me use my tilts as a pika player and has allowed me to learn how to shield properly.

marth is also a good option. many good matchups. i dont like gaw as much. his matchups just dont bode well with pikas.

i dont see why lucario wouldnt be a good secondary though.
G&W is 65:35 to Lucario.. And Marth is 60:40 to Lucario. Well.. Marth does that to almost everyone.
 

K 2

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Let's discuss only Snake right now.

I know ROB has a 60:40 on Snake.
MK is 55:45
Marth is ??? about even?
G&W gets ***** by Snake.
And Falco goes even with Snake.
 

M15t3R E

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EDIT: K 2, I really do not feel we need to create separate threads to speak about each prospective secondary for a Pikachu main. We can discuss all ideas in this one thread.
------------------------------------------------------
EDIT 2: *Added ROB*
I feel Snake, Marth, G&W, and possibly ROB are the best secondaries for a Pikachu main.
Here are their match-up stats.

Snake:
vs G&W- 60:40
vs Marth- 55:45
vs MK- 45:55
vs ROB- 40:60

G&W:
vs G&W- 50:50
vs Marth- 40:60
vs MK- 40:60
vs ROB- 65:35

Marth:
vs G&W- 60:40
vs Marth- 50:50
vs MK- 40:60
vs ROB- 50:50

ROB:
vs G&W- 35:65
vs Marth- 50:50
vs MK- 40:60
vs ROB- 50:50

It's actually not coincidental that some of Pikachu's recommended secondaries are his worst match-ups. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?
Personally, I choose Marth. All of these are viable secondaries that have a good standing against Pikachu's bad match-ups.
 

TheFast

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kirby is listed as a 30:70 on the falco boards LMAO either way kirby pwns him.
Kirby also does well Rob. From exp not actually looking at the match-ups could be wrong.
I play well with kirby vs Marth.
Snake is a broken match with Kirby. Ill admit its hard but its still good challenge.
But GAW wrecks both kirby and pika.
 

King~

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while i disagee with rob and falco being up there(this is all personal speculation) i like this discussion

also why arent D3 and MK on the list of possible secondaries?


this game and watch guy is and issue if you look at most of your secondary options. for him it seems best to use Marth(not sure on the ike matchup) or my proposed MK. ive also been hearing snake does really well.
 

K 2

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@ Mr. E: I was planning to do all the discussion for every character on this thread. We are only going to discuss 5 or so characters, so it won't get too messy in one thread.

Snake has 1 bad matchup, 2 even matchups, and 1 good matchup
G&W 1 bad matchup, 2 even matchups, and 1 good matchup
Marth also has 1 bad matchup, 3 even matchups, and 0 good matchup.


Snake easily destroys G&W. He goes even with Marth, and he goes even with MK. He loses out to ROB. So you'd be screwed if your opponent is ROB. A good Falco can take out a good Snake.

G&W goes even with himself, he can handle a marth, he destroys ROB, but he loses out to MK. G&W has a fairly tough time with MK, but if you play conservative and campy, you can deal with MK, but its still a tough, tough fight.

Marth goes even with himself, Rob, and G&W, but he loses terrible (65:35) to MK.
 

Ussi

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For Ike as a 2ndary... gotta remember what is your purpose (I'm using who I like and I prefer not to use high tiers).. But I like the Ike/Pikachu combo cause it works for me..

Ike vs Opponent:
Rob (40:60)
Marth (40:60)
G&W (45:55) [G&W thread claims 40:60]
MK (30:70)
Falco (30:70)

Not the best choice.. but if your pikachu can handle MK and Falco (Like mine...) Then it can be doable.
 

M15t3R E

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Alrighty K 2, what threw me off is that the title of the thread now implies we're discussing only Snake...

Btw guys, this is something I've been saying for a while but ROB does not have a big advantage over Pikachu. 60:40 ROB at worst for Pikachu, probably more like 55:45 ROB.
And what is this blasphemy I keep seeing implied that Falco beats Pikachu? They definitely go even 50:50.
 

Ussi

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Falco is more an "annoying match up" and so is Olimar.. lol might as well include them. But i still use Pikachu for them.
 

K 2

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@ Mr. E. I was planning to only discuss Snake, but everyone's discussing random characters, so....idk.

If pikachu can handle ROB, then Snake would theorectially be your best secondary.
 

Sorgens

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Snake is pretty great no lie, especially as a Pikachu secondary. He has next to no weaknesses and is really heavy, making him difficult to kill, unlike Pikachu. I find him really difficult to learn and then to master (although spamming f-tilts with grenades sometimes isn't so hard).

I'm more of a G&W fan as a Pika secondary (just a preference), but since Snake utterly destroys him, I guess Snake is the better choice if you want to maximize beating out counter-picks.
 

kirbysprite

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K2, I think you should put this:

Learning Curves

By the way, this list is an "in general" list. We are slowly switching it to a "for Peach" list, so don't assume too much yet.

Very Large (at least a month):
:yoshi2: :shiek: :zerosuitsamus: :popo: :snake: :sonic:
Above Average (2-3 weeks):
:peach: :bowser2: :diddy: :wario: :ganondorf: :samus2: :pt: :lucario:
Average(1-2 weeks):
:mario2: :luigi2: :dk2: :link2: :kirby2: :dedede: :olimar: :falcon: :pikachu2: :jigglypuff: :ike: :ness2: :fox:
Below Average (5 days to a week):
:zelda: :toonlink: :falco: :marth: :lucas:
Very Small (2-3 days):
:pit: :metaknight: :wolf: :gw: :rob:

Hopes this helps.

EDIT: Yes, Snake is hard to learn. His aerials is what is hard for me to pull off. But his ground game is very good. He is good at controlling the stage, since he has his mine-games. And edgeguarding is fairly decent since you can plant a C4 and mine next to the edge, then use a nair or nikata to attack them. I think he's a good secondary for Pikachu. Yet, he's kinda different from Pikachu.
 

kirbysprite

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Kirbysprite... this thread has nothing to do with character learning curves. It is about good secondaries for Pikachu.
Hey, that was something I saw on the "Secondary for Peach thread." I thought that could be useful. It shows that some secondaries will be hard to learn like Snake, and some can be easy to learn like G&W.
 

M15t3R E

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Hey, that was something I saw on the "Secondary for Peach thread." I thought that could be useful. It shows that some secondaries will be hard to learn like Snake, and some can be easy to learn like G&W.
Alrighty... why should this be a factor in choosing a secondary?
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not the type to shy away from picking up a character just because they have a relatively high learning curve.
 

Rawnie

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Would Zero Suit samus be a good secondary?
vs MK 50:50/45:55
vs Falco 30:70
vs Marth 50:50
vs GW 60:40
vs ROB 60:40

She does well with all them but Falco

Sorry for going off character but she seemed to help Pika out.
.
 

Ussi

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Would Zero Suit samus be a good secondary?
vs MK 50:50/45:55
vs Falco 30:70
vs Marth 50:50
vs GW 60:40
vs ROB 60:40

She does well with all them but Falco

Sorry for going off character but she seemed to help Pika out.
.
Isn't G&W favorable against ZSS? And I thought ZSS was even with ROB, I already looked at her. IDK about Marth since Snakeee keeps blabbing its neutral. But IMO I think Snakeee overestimates ZSS...

But ZSS would be a better 2ndary than Ike lol...
 

Rawnie

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Isn't G&W favorable against ZSS? And I thought ZSS was even with ROB, I already looked at her. IDK about Marth since Snakeee keeps blabbing its neutral. But IMO I think Snakeee overestimates ZSS...

But ZSS would be a better 2ndary than Ike lol...
According to the ZSS boards have the GW match-up in her favor
But now I look at the GW boards they say 55:45 GW favor.
I suppose we can call it even.
Marth boards have ZSS as even as well. So it's safe to call it even.
 

Ussi

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According to the ZSS boards have the GW match-up in her favor
But now I look at the GW boards they say 55:45 GW favor.
I suppose we can call it even.
Marth boards have ZSS as even as well. So it's safe to call it even.
Pikachu is even with Falco so if Pikachu can handle Falco, ZSS is a good 2nary then.

IMO G&W has the potenial to bucket Zamus's nuetral B and dsmash, and stunning is important in her game.. Zamus has to play differently which is why I would assume G&W would have the advantage if not 55:45

Most boards are a little to a lot bias to their character so it tend to always be a tiny bit off.

I still think ROB is even with ZSS though. I don't see ROB doing bad.
 

K 2

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G&W and Snake are tied as your best secondaries. G&W loses out to MK, while Snake loses out to ROB. MK's are typically more common than ROBs at the tourney, but G&W is a ton easier to learn than Snake, and G&W's style is similar to pikachu's. G&W is mostly aerial based, he has a good grab game, his tilts have limited uses, he has a godly recovery, and he has powerful kill moves. Snake is the opposite of pikachu: Poor aerial game, godly tilts, rather slow, and gimpable recovery.
 

Snakeee

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Pikachu is even with Falco so if Pikachu can handle Falco, ZSS is a good 2nary then.

IMO G&W has the potenial to bucket Zamus's nuetral B and dsmash, and stunning is important in her game.. Zamus has to play differently which is why I would assume G&W would have the advantage if not 55:45

Most boards are a little to a lot bias to their character so it tend to always be a tiny bit off.

I still think ROB is even with ZSS though. I don't see ROB doing bad.
The bucket isn't as big a deal as it seems, and everytime G&W misses that he eats a side B. She has better options in the match up from any position really, and he can't punish her jabs which is a real problem considering the first is 1 frame.

Marth I already debated enough on lol.

ROB goes about even until he is in the air, where ZSS has a strong advantage and the same does not go for her.
 

K 2

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Would you recommend ZZS over G&W or Snake as a secondary for pikachu, all bias aside?
 

gallax

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i think snake is an excellent choice as a pika compliment. all bias asides. when you play as snake, your pika game improves due to a more increased knowledge of how to use your shields and tilits more effectively. you also learn how to predict better. my pika game is better because of snake.
 

Rawnie

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Also it seems DK would be a good choice as well for a secondary.
Even with MK, Marth, GW and ROB.
Seems to even things out.
 

Rawnie

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Well, what are Pikachu's toughest match ups? I'll give you my honest opinion.
Meta Knight, Marth, ROB, GW.

IMO I would ZSS. ROB has the advantage over Snake.
Like I stated earlier, I think DK does would be a solid choice as well.
 

Masky

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if ZSS beats Marth and G&W I'm going to have to take the opportunity to secondary her... XD
 

M15t3R E

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The suggestions of DK and ZSS intrigue me as I've never heard of a Pikachu main taking that route for a secondary. Hmmm... here are the stats:

DK:
G&W- 50:50
Marth- 50:50
MK- 45:55
ROB- 50:50

ZSS:
G&W- 45:55
Marth- 40:60/50:50(?)
MK- 40:60/45:55(?)
ROB- 40:60
 

Tagxy

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Random thought only having read the first post of this thread, after watching winterfest I've started considering that Ice Climbers could be a sort of ultimate secondary character in Brawl. Granted I've heard GW, MK, and Rob are all hard matchups for IC's, but I dont consider any of those to be particularly tough matchups for Pika either, not like Falco, Marth, and potentially Diddy.
 

Rawnie

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I've also come to realizing thay Diddy could be a solid Secondary as well.
Beats Game and Watch 60:40
Even with MK and near even with Marth (45:55 ) but as long Diddy has banana control Marth will get shut down.

Not too sure about how he does with ROB. But I'm sure it's around even. Banana mometum is key.

Whats do you guys think about Diddy as a secondary?

To the person above ^ me.

Olimar would do better against Marth and Game and Watch but he is still at a disadvantage. Pikachu would not benefit very much from Olimar.
 

gallax

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as pika players we all basically have a similar style of play. even though our pikas may differ a bit, an untrained eye couldnt tell.


PICK YOUR POISON

Diddy

i dont like diddy as a secondary. to many of his mindgames differ so differently than pikas. you have to realize that what you do with one character may transpose onto another. i see diddy as being a detriment to your pika game. you want one that COMPLIMENTS pikas. this means whats good for other matchups, but also what will ultimately help your style of play.

OLIMAR

and olimar could compliment pika. help us to learn about the grab game along with projectile effectiveness.

Marth

marth would teach you how to space. but...imo....marth is extremely hard to learn. there are so many things about marth and his game that you will need to take a lot of time to learn how to do. that being said, this arent so different from each other. marth and pika love their fair. their fsmash has the same range. their dtilts are widely used in many cases. the utilt is a great kill move. they do match in so many ways. marth is, as close as anyone in the game, a literal compliment of pika. what may make this a bad choice is that marth players must learn to space PROPERLY with their fairs/nairs and incorparate the shieldbreaker into the mix. but, being as they are so closely releated in move sets, that tiny difference in their movesets could give you an advantage in matchups that are hard for pika.

benefit of using marth: better spacing and a broader range of killing techs

Snake

playing snake. tilts. you want to effecitively learn how to use your tilits? would you like to learn how to optimize your return to the stage? would you like to learn how to react out of your shield? playing snake can teach you this. but, most importantly, playing as snake teaches you how to adapt better in each matchup and can make you a faster learner. for instance, most people roll away from the edge when being pressured. as a snake player i base a lot of my game on this. its when my opponent learns not to be predictable when i have the hardest time winning. playing as snake helps you with overall predictablilty.

benefit of using snake: more effective tilt game, better understanding of predicting, learning to change your game
style

ZSS

never really player as her much, or even against her for that matter. but what i can tell you is that playing as ZSS teaches you how to kill at the proper time. she isnt the greatest at killing. we all know that. playing as her will help you with your airiel game. it will also help you with the fast reastions needed for comboes. this is referring to her ability to stun and pull in opponents from above.

GAME AND WATCH

i dont like him as a secondary. his movesets are just too different. the only thing i really like is the bair. i cant really see how playing as gaw would be a benefit for you. even if going by matchups, there are other choices who are better.
 

Rawnie

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Hmm after reviewing this secondaries suggested, I use all the character listed whether it be a secondary or main except for Diddy.

I don't believe Game and Watch would benefit Pikachu very much. Match-ups and skills in general.

Marth IMO is the easiest to pick up besides Game and Watch and his Match-ups are benefical to us. Though MK would still be a problem. Since he is the most used in tourneys, I believe a good MK counter is necessary. Marth does better against MK than Pika but it is defenitely winnable, however.

Diddy seems a bit difficult to learn. His gameplay is completely different form ours but, if in the right hands he would be a nice option for us.

Snake.......well he's Snake. Still disadvantaged to MK and ROB, so in terms of match-ups it isn't the best, and do we wanna be called tier ****** for using him?

Olimar has a great grab game but, because he is so easily gimped and Pikachu has one of the better recoveries in the game this is something to consider.

ZSS and Pikachu are both relativily quick characters, so they have some similarites. If you can get past her weak killing moves, i believe she is a good choice as a secondary.

In my NON BIASED opinion, DK is our best choice. He is our best secondary for match-ups and his grabs play an important role in his game kinda like Pikachu's. For his size he is rather quick, and a killing machine and is somewhat easy to learn.

This was just my input. Hope it helped.
 
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