Pikachu Secondary Discussion - Everyone completed!

[K 2]

The stats on DK are actually quite interesting. He is theoretically the best secondary for pikachu.

I might put a summary of the top 5 candidates for secondaries on the OP. Newer players can read each of them and then decide which characters they would like to second, based on learning curve, matchups, etc.

What's your guy's top 5?

Snake
Donkey Kong
ZZS
G&W <- Even though he loses out to MK, the matchup is bearable. Considering the fact that G&W kills MK at like 80%, G&W doesn't lose out that badly. His play style is very similar to Pikachu's.
MK...lol


@ Stealth, what are the stats on Olimar?

 

[Ussi]

DK does go even with all of Pika's unfavorable match ups. However Olimar is still "annoying" with him and Falco hurts DK more than Pikachu

 

[gallax]

silent marth just reiterrated what i said...except for DK.

another thing about playing as olimar is that you learn how to stay on the stage. once you are off you will die if you do not know how to get gimped. playing as olimar teaches you how to recover properly from off the stage and how to stay on the stage.

the reason i dont like DK is that he is so big and spacing can be a huge issue as well as trying to use an effective aeiriel game. i dont see how using DK would benefit your pika game.

 

[Snakeee]

ZSS definitely has the adv on G&W and ROBso that would help you guys out a lot. Marth is around even and meta it really depends on match up knowledge but is metas adv by a bit.

 

[King~]

Metaknight

beats gnw
beats marth
beats rob
and depends on how good you are at dittos with MK

Nair is similar
Down smash is similar in bad situations, and punishing wise
up air is similar(as in i can up air to NAir)
down air gimps
and a few other things

to me they play pretty similar, but to each his own.

 

[Snakeee]

Oh and ZSS actually has above average kill power plus she often kills high in the air to KO even earlier. Of course meta will be the best secondary because...he's meta

 

[Ussi]

Meta will kill out cuteness. we can't use him!

How does ZSS do against Olimar?

 

[M15t3R E]

Snakeee, maybe you can help me out here.

The ZSS board claims the following ratios:

vs G&W- 60:40 ZSS. G&W board claims 55:45 G&W.
vs Marth- 50:50 even. Marth board claims 60:40 Marth.
vs. ROB- 60:40 ZSS. ROB board hasn't discussed ZSS yet.


There are some MAJOR disagreements. I don't know what the hell to think.

 

[King~]

Ussi thats not true MK just wants to be loved like the rest of em.

also i feel there are some matches that are being overlooked that are harder than rob and falco like Wario and Luigi

 

[Ussi]

IMO Zelda is annoying.. But juggling is pretty easy.

Luigi prevents Pikachu's combos and Wario is also annoying :S

DK loses to both Luigi and Wario

 

[M15t3R E]

Ussi thats not true MK just wants to be loved like the rest of em.

also i feel there are some matches that are being overlooked that are harder than rob and falco like Wario and Luigi

Not gonna respond to the first sentence, but I completely agree with the second. I have never found ROB difficult. Stealth and a few others claim that fighting ROB is a **** match-up in Pikachu's disadvantage. However, there are too many ROB's in all of my tournament scenes and I usually win against them.

Wario and Luigi, however, don't seem to difficult to me. They force me to be play a little more defensively than usual, but I generally come out on top.

The real bad match-ups are Marth, G&W, and MK.

 

[K 2]

hmm...

Can we continue this discussion in the BR? This thread is getting really messy as people propose obsure secondaries...

 

[Snakeee]

I expect most boards to disagree because there are around 4-5 people in the world that can play her at a high level right now. Hardly anyone knows what she is really capable of. I am not being biased here. And Ussi Ibelieve she does really well against Olimar if played right. I've won 5 or 6 of my last tourney sets against Blackwaltz, who is the best Olimar at least on the EC

 

[M15t3R E]

This is a problem. If the G&W and Marth and ROB boards are all incorrect and thus it's true that ZSS has the advantage against them, ZSS is clearly the best secondary for Pikachu. But how do I know who to believe?

 

[Rawnie]

This is a problem. If the G&W and Marth and ROB boards are all incorrect and thus it's true that ZSS has the advantage against them, ZSS is clearly the best secondary for Pikachu. But how do I know who to believe?

Well I think that ZSS does well agaisnt, besides what the match-ups state.

ZSS out ranges everthing GW can do. So it makes bairs and fairs a bit harder to land on her is she spaces herseilf correctly. The only thing GW has on ZSS in killing power.

As a Marth main i believe is near even with her besides what the boards say. Marth may have a slight advantage. Her neutral B makes approaching a tad bit hard for Marth, but typicallly isn't a problem.

Not sure about the MK match-up though.

 

[Ussi]

This is a problem. If the G&W and Marth and ROB boards are all incorrect and thus it's true that ZSS has the advantage against them, ZSS is clearly the best secondary for Pikachu. But how do I know who to believe?

You pick her up and see if results start to come in. Following Snakeee's ZSS advice.

Snakeee, maybe you're just really really good? lol.. Well, I don't know ZSS as well as you do so I can't say Zamus isn't that good cause I don't know how good she is first hand..

 

[neji32]

G&W is 65:35 to Lucario.. And Marth is 60:40 to Lucario. Well.. Marth does that to almost everyone.

Marth beats lucario....

 

[neji32]

Pika is actually one of the good choices vs mk....you could only go = /better if you were falco/snake. Diddy is a hard matchup why isnt that up there?

 

[K 2]

Man, this is so disorganized...

After we get some more input from ZZS players, I'd like to take this to the BR, where it can be more organized.

 

[gallax]

Man, this is so disorganized...

After we get some more input from ZZS players, I'd like to take this to the BR, where it can be more organized.

K 2...shut up. You're freaking out over something so trivial.

it seems to me like ZSS is a good choice. it also seems to me that marth is also a good choice. as a marth player, i feel that ZSS has the disadvantage. his dancing blades are the main factor here. a siheld can easily stop any neutral b from zss and its rapage after that.

the best choices so far are as follwed:

marth
zamus
olimar
snake
mk

1500th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[M15t3R E]

K 2...shut up. You're freaking out over something so trivial.

it seems to me like ZSS is a good choice. it also seems to me that marth is also a good choice. as a marth player, i feel that ZSS has the disadvantage. his dancing blades are the main factor here. a siheld can easily stop any neutral b from zss and its rapage after that.

the best choices so far are as follwed:

marth
zamus
olimar
snake
mk

1500th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd agree with your top 5 except for Olimar. He shares all the same disadvantaged match-ups with Pikachu.
Oh, and don't even mention Meta Knight... you could say that's a good secondary for ANY character.
Also, why do you hate DK? His stats against the Pikachu counters are all dead even except for MK, which is still very close.

 

[gallax]

the reason i dont like Dk is because of his playstyle. i believe that playing DK will hurt your pika playstyle. when choosing a secondary you need to have one that not only is good against your bad matchups, but one that will compliment your pika game. i just cant see anything that would help us as pika.

so if are excluding MK then our final four are:

snake
olimar
marth
zamus

 

[M15t3R E]

the reason i dont like Dk is because of his playstyle. i believe that playing DK will hurt your pika playstyle. when choosing a secondary you need to have one that not only is good against your bad matchups, but one that will compliment your pika game. i just cant see anything that would help us as pika.

so if are excluding MK then our final four are:

snake
olimar
marth
zamus

Again, Olimar? Olimar is disadvantaged to Marth, MK, G&W, and ROB. ALL 4 OF THEM!!!11

And how does Snake, Marth, and ZZS help your Pika playstyle anyways? They are all completely different from Pikachu. At least DK's grab game is similar to Pikachu's.

 

[gallax]

look at my post on the third page.

 

[King~]

i dont understand why not include MK, other than morals.

since he does do really well vs the few problmatic matches we have.

not only is he similar but he gives you that advantageous match-up your looking for

 

[Stealth Raptor]

the same could be said for any main. he is sorta an obvious given. plus few if any of us will resort to him.

 

[Sorgens]

Olimar isn't a bad choice but not a good one either imo. He is easily countered by a few popular top tiers. ZSS is definitely worth looking into, an untapped character with lots of potential. I'ma give it a shot just for the sake of it.

And as if there aren't enough MK's out in the world...

So it seems that Snake/ZSS are our best options (so far)?

 

[gallax]

i like olimar and snake and marth and zamus. i think right now those are our best choices.

 

[Rawnie]

Olimar isn't a bad choice but not a good one either imo. He is easily countered by a few popular top tiers. ZSS is definitely worth looking into, an untapped character with lots of potential. I'ma give it a shot just for the sake of it.

And as if there aren't enough MK's out in the world...

So it seems that Snake/ZSS are our best options (so far)?

Well I still believe DK is our best option. Better match-up, being even with all our bad match-ups. And like stated earlier he and Pikachu use grabs as an efficient part of their gameplay.

 

[M15t3R E]

i like olimar and snake and marth and zamus. i think right now those are our best choices.

You're not gonna let go of Olimar, are you?
Olimar is NOTHING like Pikachu, plus he shares the same disadvantaged match-ups with Pikachu that we're looking to resolve. Saying Olimar is a rather arbitrary, ill-advised suggestion. And again, I strongly feel you are overlooking DK.

 

[Sorgens]

Well I still believe DK is our best option. Better match-up, being even with all our bad match-ups. And like stated earlier he and Pikachu use grabs as an efficient part of their gameplay.

Now that I think about it and look into him he just very well may be. I'ma definitely give him a shot and see what's up.

Kudos for the suggestion.

 

[gallax]

ok. ill give up olimar. but im definately NOT going to say DK. never.

 

[K 2]

Why not DK? He's theorectially our best secondary. His playstyle may be slightly different, but that's not a legitimate reason to not use him as a secondary. A secondary should cover all of pikachu's bad matchups, and DK does that well.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

the playstyle of one character should not be a factor. each of the characters you play benefit more from having a different playstyle so you dont mix them up. I play Pikachu, Lucario, and Samus. the playstyles are SO different, but it allows you to cp them better, keeps your opponent guessing.

 

[Ussi]

Playstyle will follow your 2ndaries. I keep approaching too much with pikachu >_<

 

[gallax]

ok then so our top 4 are in no specific order:

Dk
marth
snake
zamus

 

[K 2]

Marth and pikachu both lose out to MK pretty badly. Its like 65:35 for MK against Pika and Marth. Considering MK is the most common tournament character, I don't believe marth would be a good secondary.

I agree with the other three though.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i would have to disagree about mk vs pika being that bad. he is one of those potential mk counters. i would call that 40-60 for now.

 

[K 2]

DK, Snake, and Zamus all do considerable better than pika against MK.

Does anyone else have any other suggestions for secondaries? Any objections against Galax's list? I'll create a list of 5 or so characters and a summary like galax's post on post 39 when we are done discussing.

 

[gallax]

i would take a note of something before you write the final discussion. im concerned about falco. he is a hard matchup. he owns snake, dk, and zamus. i would like to know how many people have problems with playing falco's.

i would like to keep marth in the discussion, but as a specialty character for pika. he is similar to pika so picking him up will be...a medium challenge. but if you learn him, you have a great falco counter. marth can dolphin slash out of falco's CG...therefore not letting falco have a cg on him. this with marths range(his sword) this matchup is easier to play than snake/DK/zamus.

I say we put marth in as a specialdary (lol i made that up but sounds good) and DK/snake/zamuz as good secondary options.

What say you all?