Pictochat

[Kaiber Kop]

The notion that people would allows stages to make certain characters more or less viable is the most ludicrous idea of balance I have ever heard in my life.

Thats EXACTLY what CP's are....I'd rather see the japanese stage list used. I dont think neutrals are boring when I care about winning

 

[Linkshot]

Absolutely not. I will die before I allow this stage at my events. Random, uncontrollable, unpredictable occurances can decide who wins. That is not acceptable.

Sorry, bro.

Go to the Midwest if you like luck-based/broken stages. >_>;

Ban running! You can trip!

PictoChat is entirely fair. Stages are not there to simply say "Okay, Nintendo isn't thinking straight so we have to think for them." Stages are there to specifically INFLUENCE the match. That is why we counterpick stages.

I'm sorry, but if you get "luckwhored" by PictoChat, that's because you refused to learn the stage. That's like yelling at somebody for D3 chaingrabbing because you didn't know he could do it.

Shut up and learn. In the end, a stage is a character we fight on.

 

[bobson]

If I may be permitted to address the God-King of NJ after my heinous blasphemies of suggesting Pictochat should be allowed, what's the justification for banning PS2?

 

[Linkshot]

Maybe attacking them is wrong but the justification for the stage being legal is weak imo. I agree about the CP list being unfair, but pictochat isnt an answer to me. I'd much rather see rumble falls legal than picto. Its gay for sure but I KNOW whats gonna happen. I was against it at first then slightly neutral but after trying it recently a lot, im convinced it's horrible. I'd rather allow slightly more hazards over random occurences

I smell a Rumble Falls rep!
<3

 

[Kaiber Kop]

I smell a Rumble Falls rep!
<3

Lol I love the stage but I wouldnt fight for it's legality.

 

[teh_spamerer]

If I may be permitted to address the God-King of NJ after my heinous blasphemies of suggesting Pictochat should be allowed, what's the justification for banning PS2?

This one is solely because it's unpopular. I convinced him to unban it for some events last year but then people complained about it so he banned it because he was worried about attendance.

I'm sorry, but if you get "luckwhored" by PictoChat, that's because you refused to learn the stage. That's like yelling at somebody for D3 chaingrabbing because you didn't know he could do it.

What happens if every time I hit my opponent a stage hazard doesn't come up and hit them(or I get bad items every time) and I hit them 10x more then they hit me but whenever they hit me I get hit into a stage hazard(or they get some **** item)? That isn't skill, it's LUCK.

 

[fkacyan]

Thats EXACTLY what CP's are....I'd rather see the japanese stage list used. I dont think neutrals are boring when I care about winning

I think you're confusing the concept of altering matchups and outright viability, here.

Also, we don't allow stages for or against specific characters. The idea that one would allow a stage just to force a character to always have to ban it is ********. You might as well not allow the stage and tell the person playing the character they don't have a ban.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

I think you're confusing the concept of altering matchups and outright viability, here.

Also, we don't allow stages for or against specific characters. The idea that one would allow a stage just to force a character to always have to ban it is ********. You might as well not allow the stage and tell the person playing the character they don't have a ban.

I'm confusing nothing. Viability is based on matchups. If every char matchup was even every char would be viable. Ike is not viable in Singles due to horrible matchups within the cast.

The current CP list is already biased(although Im satisfied). Snake doesnt go to Halberd bc of a pretty ship and wario doesnt go to brinstar bc lava is cool. Meanwhile Sonic gets wrecked at Brinstar and all the other bad characters who cant kill have to do 600% to snake on halberd in order to win before he does 240%.

I'm still against picto bc it is random and majorly influences the fight due to this

 

[Linkshot]

The Klaptrap isn't random.
PictoChat's transformations aren't random.

Multitask. Glance at the clock now and then. Memorise 13-second intervals as you play. Attack at that interval, and you will smash your opponent into the transformation.

The Klaptrap appears every 10 seconds on the 7 at the right, and then 5 on the left. As 3 minutes pass, it becomes 6 and 4.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm confusing nothing. Viability is based on matchups. If every char matchup was even every char would be viable. Ike is not viable in Singles due to horrible matchups within the cast.

The current CP list is already biased(although Im satisfied). Snake doesnt go to Halberd bc of a pretty ship and wario doesnt go to brinstar bc lava is cool. Meanwhile Sonic gets wrecked at Brinstar and all the other bad characters who cant kill have to do 600% to snake on halberd in order to win before he does 240%.

I'm still against picto bc it is random and majorly influences the fight due to this

Once again, you've missed the main point of what I'm saying. I'm not talking overall matchups here. Halberd was not allowed for the specific purpose of aiding Snake, nor ****** non-Snake. In this case I was replying to the notion that greens Greens be allowed specifically as a CP for MK, ignoring the fact that there are other game-changing mechanics on the stage.

Look at it this way. Imagine two things: One, Link cannot be CGd by D3 and two, Shadow Moses being allowed would make Link A-tier. Do we allow the stage to boost Link? Of course not - The stage still supports degenerate play.

 

[bobson]

This one is solely because it's unpopular. I convinced him to unban it for some events last year but then people complained about it so he banned it because he was worried about attendance.

Oi, really?

I need to make a mental note to ask everyone if they're from NJ before making my counterpick.

 

[teh_spamerer]

PictoChat's transformations aren't random.

LMAO! Yes they are. The same transformations do not appear at the same time every game. Hence, they are random. If that wasn't the case the stage would gdlk.

Multitask. Glance at the clock now and then. Memorise 13-second intervals as you play. Attack at that interval, and you will smash your opponent into the transformation.

None of this matters if every time you hit your opponent before a drawing comes out if nothing advantageous comes out and if every time your opponent hits you at those intervals something disadvantageous for you comes out.

The Klaptrap appears every 10 seconds on the 7 at the right, and then 5 on the left. As 3 minutes pass, it becomes 6 and 4.

No one cares. The klaptrap has a stupidly strong effect on a match. Getting hit on any other stage by the same move that sends you into the klaptrap has a very different effect. You could talk about Dedede's CGs but you can always pick a character that can't be CGed to get around those. You can't do **** about just getting hit and having it happen to be a time period where the klaptrap comes out. It might not be random but that doesn't mean it doesn't ruin the game.

 

[Linkshot]

If you put yourself in those bad positions knowingly, you deserved to lose.

 

[deepseadiva]

There is actually a lot of bad points coming in from both sides on this. It would require quite a wall to correct some of you, which I honestly don't feel like writing - but maybe if I leave you guys with some truths, you can figure out why you guys are wrong via dot connecting.

A) Willingly allowing randomness into competition is utterly unacceptable.

B) Randomness in itself is not unacceptable, it becomes unacceptable when it changes the outcome in a competition.

C) When randomness does not affect the outcome of a competition, it is acceptable, i.e. its effect is negligible.

You have to agree with the three above points. It's logic.

Oh **** it. I'll explain. I'm going to be brief though.

"Deal with Pictochat like you deal with tripping."

Flawed logic. We have the option of accepting or denying Pictochat - the same cannot be said for tripping.

"Allowing Pictochat is comparable to allowing some items."

Very flawed logic. Items cannot be dealt with preemptively beyond being on the stage - Pictochat's drawings can be preemptively dealt with in numerous ways, as well as being predicted. The two are incomparable.

"A restricted stage list hurts lower tiers." Which is being misinterpreted as: "Open the stage list to alter match-ups." But really means: "A restricted stage list artificially hurts and caters to specific characters, which is of course unacceptable."

Altering match-ups is unacceptable. A restricted stage list alters match-ups. There is a contradiction here. Play the game given. Remove the degenerate crap, and then play your crappy game, which unfortunately means: Meta Knight, tripping, planking, and Pictochat.

Anyways, back to Pictochat. This'll (hopefully) be my last statement since I've really just realized this is the same region that bans Jungle Japes.

Remember the three green truths above? Pictochat falls under "C". The randomness doesn't matter to non-ignorant players.

Oh, and here's my post that kinda destroyed Inui, and was thus ignored, earlier. Read that too.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8473825&postcount=174

 

[Linkshot]

Meno Underwater wins.

Blooper knowledge surpasses all.

 

[fkacyan]

Meno Underwater wins.

Blooper knowledge surpasses all.

We can all meatride people we agree with, but that doesn't make their arguments correct.

Let's see how coherent a rebuttal I can form at 5:00 AM.

Firstly:

Anyways, back to Pictochat. This'll (hopefully) be my last statement since I've really just realized this is the same region that bans Jungle Japes.

This should be my only rebuttal to you in this thread, seeing as your region... Well, I honestly can't think of anything you do nor any players you have produced. Yay ad hominem! Now that's that silly garbage is over with...

Remember the three green truths above? Pictochat falls under "C". The randomness doesn't matter to non-ignorant players.

Ignorant? Since when is ignorance luck? You can only control when you get hit and where you are on a stage to a certain degree. I can have perfect knowledge of the stage, but if the spike-picket fence spawns on me as my opponent backthrows me, his 12% launch becomes a kill by virtue of nothing other than an RNG deciding to spawn a certain hazard. There is a virtually no difference between this and, say, items on a spawn timer. Knowing when they are going to spawn does not change that you don't know what will spawn or where.

A meteorologist with a doctorate in the study of electromagnetism as it pertains to weather patterns can still be struck by lightning. He's not ignorant, he just got unlucky. As have many people (Including Atomsk, among others) been given the short end of the stick by this stage.

 

[Inui]

I love how mediocre/random/bad players are telling elite gods like teh_spamerer and I to "just pay attention" and "you suck at the stage" and other such garbage.

Stow it. We know exactly what you're talking about. Your (crappy) points have been addressed repeatedly.

Can the stage easily determine who wins based entirely on luck? Yes.

Can you predict what drawing will appear? No.

Can you react to something spawning on top of where you are and avoid it? No.

Banned. End of story.

 

[daisho]

I love how mediocre/random/bad players are telling elite gods like teh_spamerer and I to "just pay attention" and "you suck at the stage" and other such garbage.

Stow it. We know exactly what you're talking about. Your (crappy) points have been addressed repeatedly.

Can the stage easily determine who wins based entirely on luck? Yes.

Can you predict what drawing will appear? No.

Can you react to something spawning on top of where you are and avoid it? No.

Banned. End of story.

NO. It will happen once in a while.

Which ones seriously impact the match? The Bombs, Plant, Car, and Spikes.

There are how many transformations? 23?

One every 26 seconds. Each match is about 4:30. That is 270 seconds. That is 10 transformations. Say half of them come out.

At high levels of play, how long are you in hitstun or otherwise immobilized? 30 Seconds of the match? Probably much less.

Any one of these will only be in about 1/5 of the stage.

Lets see what we have in which I used conservative estimates.

4/23 * 1/2 * 1/9 * 1/5 = .0019
About .2% meaning that you will get hit by one of these things about 1/500 matches that you play on pictochat.

In a big tournament if you win it you have to play like 8-10 matches? Meaning 10 CPs... If every time they could they cpd pictochat then there would be a 1/50 chance you would get hit (not necessarily game changing) by one of these objects in the entire tournament.

 

[Alex Strife]

everyone realizes its not banned in NYC right? lol

 

[Turbo Ether]

A meteorologist with a doctorate in the study of electromagnetism as it pertains to weather patterns can still be struck by lightning. He's not ignorant, he just got unlucky.

Amazing. Lol'd irl at this.

everyone realizes its not banned in NYC right? lol

Ah, now things have become interesting. LMAO.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Once again, you've missed the main point of what I'm saying. I'm not talking overall matchups here. Halberd was not allowed for the specific purpose of aiding Snake, nor ****** non-Snake. In this case I was replying to the notion that greens Greens be allowed specifically as a CP for MK, ignoring the fact that there are other game-changing mechanics on the stage.

Look at it this way. Imagine two things: One, Link cannot be CGd by D3 and two, Shadow Moses being allowed would make Link A-tier. Do we allow the stage to boost Link? Of course not - The stage still supports degenerate play.

I'm not missing the point. Sure adding more crazy srages just for some characters doesnt seem like a good idea, but the current list helps out all of the top characters when they dont have cp matchups to begin with.Halberd may not be availible for snake to wreck anyone but that is how it's used. Adding fair stages for lesser characters seems fine. PS2 is the only one banned in this region. Its helps both my characters anyway.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I love how mediocre/random/bad players are telling elite gods like teh_spamerer and I to "just pay attention" and "you suck at the stage" and other such garbage.

Stow it. We know exactly what you're talking about. Your (crappy) points have been addressed repeatedly.

Can the stage easily determine who wins based entirely on luck? Yes.

Can you predict what drawing will appear? No.

Can you react to something spawning on top of where you are and avoid it? No.

Banned. End of story.

Inui you could just stop posting in this thread. If you host the tourneys then they can't do anything about it. No need to argue if it's pointless because your the to and you don't want picto or etc... legal.

 

[Linkshot]

Specify further.

These "elite gods" have not proven extensive stage knowledge to me, and that is easily one of the biggest parts of Brawl.

If I take an elite player to PictoChat and he has never been there, I can guarantee you have a high chance of winning since I know:

A) Where hazards spawn
B) When transformations spawn
C) How to DI away from hazard spawn points
D) How to hit my opponent into hazard spawn points

The hazard spawn points are static. The timer is static. The only thing not static is the order the 27 transformations appear in.

Static, therefore predictable, hazards cannot be compared to a bob-omb spawning into your attack. They can be compared to getting hit by Palkia's Hyper Beam, given the chance to shield.

Learn the stage. I am certainly not a scrub. If you were here in Ottawa, you would realise I am consistently winning money at bi-weeklies, due to extensive knowledge of characters, stages, and the synergy between them. When somebody goes "OH WTF?!" I can honestly say "I planned that."

 

[ChuDat]

Camping on a stage to avoid hazards is dumb. It's impossible to do so anyway since you'll be too buzy fighting your opponent than to "predict" the next stage hazard coming up. You guys make it seem like your some prodigy at reacting, DI'ing, and predicting something that comes out every 26 seconds. Get that **** outta here.

"Be better" is a pretty good argument though, I'll give u guys that.

People arguing for this to be legal are ridiculous.

 

[da K.I.D.]

There is easily enough time between the time when the hazards begin being drawn, and when they actually come into effect for any player with an average reaction time to identify, DI and air dodge that specific hazard appropiately so as to avoid it

 

[ChuDat]

There is easily enough time between the time when the hazards begin being drawn, and when they actually come into effect for any player with an average reaction time to DI and air dodge so as to avoid them

No. People get hit way too often on this stage. That means it isn't easy to avoid.

 

[da K.I.D.]

No. People get hit way too often on this stage. That means it isn't easy to avoid.

No. That means that people dont play on it enough and tend to panic when they dont know whats about to happen, and thus get hit by stuff they shouldnt be getting hit by

 

[Linkshot]

If they get hit too often, they're not treating it as PictoChat.

If you're afraid of getting hit into a hazard, try avoiding combat right before it spawns.

 

[bobson]

No. People get hit way too often on this stage. That means it isn't easy to avoid.

I rarely ever get hit by hazards on this stage because I play it often enough to know the general feel of the stage and where I shouldn't be at what times. A similar case would be Brinstar; someone who's totally new to the stage will probably get hit by the lava a lot and screwed up by the weird ground, but players who know the stage's quirks will be able to avoid them and use them to their advantage. The same is true with Pictochat, randomness notwithstanding.

 

[Linkshot]

I rarely ever get hit by hazards on this stage because I play it often enough to know the general feel of the stage and where I shouldn't be at what times. A similar case would be Brinstar; someone who's totally new to the stage will probably get hit by the lava a lot and screwed up by the weird ground, but players who know the stage's quirks will be able to avoid them and use them to their advantage. The same is true with Pictochat, randomness notwithstanding.

That being said, Brinstar is my favourite stage in the game, and I frequently counterpick it.

It's amazing for both Ness and Lucario ^^

 

[SOVAman]

Stage is fun. I like it

don't see if getting unbanned though =/

not saying i think it should be legal

 

[NO-IDea]

This is becoming a bigger deal than it should be. Let the TOs decide what stages are legal. If you care to disagree, don't attend the tournament and host your own.

Majority wins. If a tournament lacks support from the community, the TO will change the rules. If people are attending the tournament even if Pictochat is unavailable, then obviously it's not as big as a problem as you think it is.

Stop wasting your time arguing for the stage. Make a group. Rally up people. Host a tournament enforcing your preferred rules. Do something.

Don't complain in a thread.

 

[ChuDat]

No. That means that people dont play on it enough and tend to panic when they dont know whats about to happen, and thus get hit by stuff they shouldnt be getting hit by

They panic because the formation is random. For example, the bombs on the stage appear and are in effect close to a second. If you are returning back to the stage with an attack and a bomb suddenly appears, you're dead. You can't dodge it since you are in the middle of an attack and you are focusing on your opponent. You can't predict that unless you memorize every hazard spawn point and 100% flawlessly avoid these locations every 26 seconds. You are bound to get hit sooner or later.

Linkshot - The stage just promotes camping at high level play then, which isn't what we need. At high level play, players will be camping the "safe zone" and not letting their opponent inside. The opponent then suffers the fate of randomly getting hit by a hazard since he can't get inside the "safe zone". Even avoiding combat he is fu*ked.

Bobson - Congrats on being 1 of 1000 people not capable of getting hit on Pictochat. Try playing mew2king in a best of 5 set on pictochat or something, then say you didn't get it. Brinstar is really obvious and takes a minute to learn the stage while pictochat would take hours to learn. I think the two are incomparable. It's like saying that Port City should be a counter since at high level play, you shouldn't be getting hit by cars and it's players fault.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its more about educating the people that might be nuetral on the subject and dont have all the information on the stage. Its more important to educate those people so that they can make the best decision possible, than changing the opinions of those that disagree with us.

EDIT @ chu.
the deciding of the next drawing is random but the formation of said drawing is not random, the stage just cant draw cancel, and put up a different drawing after one of the drawings has been decided. As soon as the drawings begin starting you can easilyand quickly determine what drawing is coming and thus take steps to avoid it.

i will admit that I dont have the info on exactly how much time takes place between when the stage begins drawing and when those drawing take form in the context of the characters, but I fully believe that any player playing this game at a competitive level has the skills and reflexes to avoid it with in that amount of time.

You are also incorrect in your belief of camping the safe zone. You have to realise that camping the safe zone will not be done at the higher levels. because that method of avoiding the hazards will only be used by thelower skilled players and those that dont have experience with the stage. Because when you learn the stage, you wont need to run to the safe zone just to get away, seeing as the safe zone is a place where you are safe from all 8 or so damaging transformations at once. and in the game you are only going to need to avoid one at a time. thus the actual safe zone for the one drawing that you have to deal with at that one point, is and will be massively bigger than the zone needed to stay safe from all of them at once, ya feel me?
That is why avoiding fighting for those 2 seconds will not be a problematic occurance.

and the last point you made about it being bannable because its hard to learn the entire stage is like saying that the ICs arent good because its really hard to play them well. It still remains that the skilled players (like yourself) will get that good with the ICs just as the skilled players will get good with the stage. It shouldnt matter how long it takes. And even if thats true and it takes forever to get good at the stage, wouldnt that make it a stage that is MORE indicative of who has more skill when two players play on it?

 

[bobson]

Bobson - Congrats on being 1 of 1000 people not capable of getting hit on Pictochat. Try playing mew2king in a best of 5 set on pictochat or something, then say you didn't get it. Brinstar is really obvious and takes a minute to learn the stage while pictochat would take hours to learn. I think the two are incomparable. It's like saying that Port City should be a counter since at high level play, you shouldn't be getting hit by cars and it's players fault.

There are only six transformations that can actually damage you and they can be avoided purely on reaction when they do show up 'cause there's a second or so where they're being drawn and don't harm anything. Learning the timing of the transformations so you know when you should keep yourself in a position to dodge is really simple, too, and only takes a set at most to have down. I think you're overrating how long it takes to learn the stage.
Now, mastering the stage is a substantially harder feat (it's like that for most stages), but just learning how to avoid the hazards efficiently will only take one or two practice sessions to get down.

 

[BleachigoZX]

I just want another Flat stage so that I can camp more.

Go Malcolm!

 

[Gangsta_inc]

-it's not G, he just left his profile up-
Everyone has had to camp at some point

I understand the need to quell the camping but, in reviewing matches and live streams. That's just about a good portion of the casts metagame.

Spacing Baiting, Waiting, and Running and Punishing. It's already something that hasn't been combatted against, only complained about.
And a stage like PC isn't going to totally warp placements.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm not missing the point. Sure adding more crazy srages just for some characters doesnt seem like a good idea, but the current list helps out all of the top characters when they dont have cp matchups to begin with.Halberd may not be availible for snake to wreck anyone but that is how it's used. Adding fair stages for lesser characters seems fine. PS2 is the only one banned in this region. Its helps both my characters anyway.

I have no issue with PS2 except that it essentially forces both characters so semi-stall when it transforms. That and GnW's uair float kills if you jump when he uses it in the air segment.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

I have no issue with PS2 except that it essentially forces both characters so semi-stall when it transforms. That and GnW's uair float kills if you jump when he uses it in the air segment.

Darn giving G&W something. I forgot that only Wario, Snake, and MK are supposed to have fair(for the most part) stages to win on.

 

[daisho]

Why did my post get ignored