Blunted_object10
Smash Master
Drake I will use Marth against you in our MM!
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Phoenix Brawl 6 (Important Venue Change! Details inside)
- Thread starter ~Firefly~
- Start date
~Firefly~
Smash Hero
The problem arises if his sandbagging gives him a loss inconsistent with the rest of the rankings in the pool, pushing somebody who would've gotten say, 4th seed an extra set win, potentially putting them in a tie with or ahead of the player who would've gotten 3rd seed. This is the simplest example of how sandbagging can mess with results, but there are limitless ways a single illegitimate set can impact the rankings, given how chaotic pools results can get.
The lesson here is that you can't assume going Jiggs for one set won't screw anybody ever, because there is always a way. Even throwing a single match could easily impact potential tiebreakers. (and there's bound to be at least one or two set ties in pools)
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
An Olimar ditto set. Really?
~Firefly~
Smash Hero
*shrugs*
MeSSi
Smash Ace
hey dan come to BC lolololol
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
There are tons of ways that sandbagging can completely mess up pools. Jake mentioned one obvious one. Another one, which has caused problems in like every tournament I've attended since like November is that I place lower down in the pool, meaning my first matchup is against someone who placed higher up. Say, for example, I should have placed 2nd in my pool, but instead I place in 4th, now whoever placed in 1st in the other pool has to face me very early in the bracket. The entire point of pools is so that when the pools are placed into brackets, the better people don't face each other until late in the bracket, and have easier matchups to begin with leading up to the harder matches at the end. Now, instead, the person who got 1st now has to face me in the first or second round, and if he loses, he was punished for winning his pool? That's not fair at all.
However, in my case, when I sandbag in pools, I often sandbag my way to an early elimination in the bracket, so my above problem is minimized. Yet technically, any type of sandbagging will mess up results.
Don't worry, odds are I will very likely be taking this tournament very seriously.
Speaking of pools so much, I was thinking a bit about it, and assuming we are doing elimination pools, If I understand right, we will be left with 24 people moving on, with 8 1sts, 8 2nds, and 8 3rds. I don't think you can make very accurate brackets using these results alone (splitting 8 1sts out... too many 1sts). As suicidal as this would sound, I actually think we should do another set of pools (e.g. 4 pools of 6) to further seed people into the bracket (and if time is a constraint, maybe make that a second elimination pool, where top 4 move on, for a 16 man bracket). I personally don't see how it could be possible to seed 8 1sts, 2nds, and 3rds without being forced to include bias in the brackets. It won't mess up the amateur bracket [if we eliminate 8 people in the 2nd pools, they just get byes to the amateur's winner's 8th finals (just before quarter's)], but essentially, that will simply make seeding much more efficient and easier.
Jake's call, but just a suggestion.
However, in my case, when I sandbag in pools, I often sandbag my way to an early elimination in the bracket, so my above problem is minimized. Yet technically, any type of sandbagging will mess up results.
Don't worry, odds are I will very likely be taking this tournament very seriously.
Speaking of pools so much, I was thinking a bit about it, and assuming we are doing elimination pools, If I understand right, we will be left with 24 people moving on, with 8 1sts, 8 2nds, and 8 3rds. I don't think you can make very accurate brackets using these results alone (splitting 8 1sts out... too many 1sts). As suicidal as this would sound, I actually think we should do another set of pools (e.g. 4 pools of 6) to further seed people into the bracket (and if time is a constraint, maybe make that a second elimination pool, where top 4 move on, for a 16 man bracket). I personally don't see how it could be possible to seed 8 1sts, 2nds, and 3rds without being forced to include bias in the brackets. It won't mess up the amateur bracket [if we eliminate 8 people in the 2nd pools, they just get byes to the amateur's winner's 8th finals (just before quarter's)], but essentially, that will simply make seeding much more efficient and easier.
Jake's call, but just a suggestion.
Tin Man
Smash Hero
The 1st seeders get a Bye
The 2nd seeders play the 3rd seeders in 1st round of winners.
If you need a visual, look at my tourney results threads.
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
I know what it looks like (I host tourneys in Victoria, and fool around with the TIO when I'm bored). The thing that I am saying may cause a problem is that we will end up with 8 1st place seeds. I personally think that this is way too many (one side of the bracket will have a much harder bracket than the other). If we instead had 4 1st seeds, we will end up with better-seeded brackets.
Essentially:
8 1st seeds
8 2nd seeds
8 3rd seeds
vs
4 1st seeds
4 2nd seeds
4 3rd seeds
4 4th seeds (or eliminated)
4 5th seeds (or eliminated)
4 6th seeds (or eliminated)
Just makes a more balanced bracket.
Edit: Say for example we had three amazing players who should easily get 1-2-3, then 5 others as 1st place seeds. It is possible all three may end up on the same side of the bracket, or two having to face each other early. And unlike major tournaments where they can separate M2K and Ally, we don't know how each region matches up against each other (we probably have a good idea as to who our top players are going to be, but not for sure).
If you don't like my idea or think it will take too long, then just ignore it. I likely won't last long enough to be in this situation, but I'm just trying to get those who are in the top to get fair brackets etc.
Essentially:
8 1st seeds
8 2nd seeds
8 3rd seeds
vs
4 1st seeds
4 2nd seeds
4 3rd seeds
4 4th seeds (or eliminated)
4 5th seeds (or eliminated)
4 6th seeds (or eliminated)
Just makes a more balanced bracket.
Edit: Say for example we had three amazing players who should easily get 1-2-3, then 5 others as 1st place seeds. It is possible all three may end up on the same side of the bracket, or two having to face each other early. And unlike major tournaments where they can separate M2K and Ally, we don't know how each region matches up against each other (we probably have a good idea as to who our top players are going to be, but not for sure).
If you don't like my idea or think it will take too long, then just ignore it. I likely won't last long enough to be in this situation, but I'm just trying to get those who are in the top to get fair brackets etc.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
~Firefly~
Smash Hero
That's not what he meant, Tin Man. That part is easy; the tricky part is how to arrange the first seeds in a way that doesn't create an uneven bracket. With 8 players all ranked equally, it's easy to create a bracket where, say, the top half of winner's is much more difficult than the bottom half. My solution to this is to seed the 1st seeds (and the 2nd and 3rd as well, but to a lesser extent) by region. This is dependent on how the 1st seeds are distributed among regions, but the basic idea is to take one region's 1st seeds and separate them as much as possible from each other in a logical way. For example, if Alphicans and KillLock both get 1st seeds, I'd start by putting the two of them in opposite sides of the bracket, since they are the clear-cut top 2 from Alberta. If a third AB player gets a 1st seed, I'd randomly (assuming there's no better way to do so) assign him to the same half as one of them, but in a separate quarter, so they couldn't meet until Winner's Semis. Given that there are 4 regions, this should give a pretty well-defined starting point, from which I can use the bit of wiggle left over to deal with any other lower-priority issues that may come along. (for example, the 2nd seed in Alphicans' pool might be in the same quarter of the bracket as him, so I might swap Alphicans and KillLock in that case to avoid them having to play again if that 2nd seed upsets his 1st seed)
There are going to be judgement calls no matter what, but if we seed too tightly, (i.e. two rounds of pools) we lose the flexibility we need to do things like separate people from the same region. And if it helps, I use coin flips to make decisions whenever I come across a placement that can't be decided strictly by pool placement, pool rankings, or by region/carpool/housing/whatever.
There are going to be judgement calls no matter what, but if we seed too tightly, (i.e. two rounds of pools) we lose the flexibility we need to do things like separate people from the same region. And if it helps, I use coin flips to make decisions whenever I come across a placement that can't be decided strictly by pool placement, pool rankings, or by region/carpool/housing/whatever.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Blue yoshi makes a really good point, and I think if possible, 2 rounds of pools would be ideal.
breez
Smash Ace
So is everyone cool with everything regarding housing with me? I urge anyone with any questions to contact me on FB or via PM on here.
Otherwise, super duper hype. I haven't been this excited for a long time for a smash tourny!
Otherwise, super duper hype. I haven't been this excited for a long time for a smash tourny!
~Firefly~
Smash Hero
I got kinda ninja'd here. I do think this is a very solid point, but I also see it as kind of a trade-off; more accurate seeding vs. better regional separation. Seeing how most of the hype is going to be from region vs. region, and the regional skill disparity isn't dramatic. (WA is the best, but BC and AB are pretty even and there are only 1-2 WA players that really outclass Canada anyway, even though we have no idea where Tin Man will stand) I think a bracket focused on regional separation would be better suited to this tournament, and because of the structure of the competing regional groups, I believe the bracket would likely be fairly balanced anyway. And of course, there is the time issue on top of all that.
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
Well, having four 1st seeds will still allow you to have some freedom in separating the regions (i.e. if there are two 1st seeds from the same region, separate them). Sure you may have less freedom, but I think even brackets should be your major concern, followed by separating region.
And another concern that I just remembered (from you saying hype matchups being region vs region). I believe I missed your post about it, but SKidd told me a while ago you said you were going to make pools as hype as possible. As nice as having hype matchups at a tournament would be, I think you should focus more on making sure all the pools and brackets are even. I haven't seen your pools yet (you haven't released them), so I have no idea what you did. From my understanding of SKidd's description, you are "forcing" (can't think of the right word) in hype matchups. However, if you have, say, me, Alphicans and Ben all in the same pool (Me and Ben have somewhat of a history, me and Alphi is obvious, and Ben and Alphi have somewhat of a history iirc), then the other three people in our pool might as well book their ticket into the amateur bracket since there are three very high level players in their pool (I am not saying we are the top 3, I was using us as an example). Also, having one very hype matchup of two very good people may cause another pool to be much easier.
So... basically, what I think you should do (I don't know how you did pools, but according to SKidd's description, I am going to say this anyways just in case) is separate who you think are the top 8 attendees and put them in pools. Then separate the next 8 and put them in pools (separated by region). Then separate the next 8. Then the next 8, and so on and so fourth. That way, each pool will be somewhat even, and the lower three seeds won't get completely destroyed by an overpowered pool.
If you did it well already, then ignore this. I haven't seen the pools, so I don't know how you separated people.
I forgot what I posted (I wrote this out about 30 minutes ago since someone MSN messaged me and I got distracted, and I'm too lazy to re-read what I posted), so... yeah, warning, I may have left stuff in I would normally remove after re-reading.
Edit:
My main point in the second half of the post iirc is don't try too hard to force in hype matchups. If one so happens to happen, then so be it. If not, then new ones will form. I would personally prefer to have my hype matchups wait until mid-late bracket rather than in the first round of pools. Otherwise, I will go all-out since it's a matchup I want to win, but now I'm mentally exhausted and won't play my other matches well enough (or will need to take a break before my next matchup). Obviously I will have hard matchups in my pool (e.g. I might have Tin Man or something), but... yeah. What I just said. I'd also rather play people I haven't faced before in pools if possible rather than someone I played before.
I don't know what people's opinions are on this, but if you want to have hype matchups, they will happen in the brackets anyways, so no need to force them in earlier. As I said, I would prefer to have people I haven't faced before in my bracket (e.g. USA, most of Alberta, EC Canada, some mainly lower seed BC).
Edit edit: Jake, from what you are saying, it sounds like your main priority is to have regions face each other, and have known hype matchups happen. As nice as both of these sound, I think you should make sure the brackets are balanced more than the others. Separating by region can be done easily even with 4 pools, it's not that hard (I may have worked with a smaller attendance, but it's still easy to do). And as far as hype matchups... don't rig the brackets so they happen, just let them happen. For example, don't make me and Alphicans face each other in the first round of the bracket, otherwise one of us will be sent into the loser's bracket way too early. Just make a bracket balanced and region-separated and don't force in hype matchups. If they end up happening, then yay. If not, then new rivalries will form and more hype matchups will happen at the next tournament. If you force them in, you will have unbalanced brackets, and you will have one or more people complain that they were eliminated earlier than they should have been because the bracket wasn't made properly.
I've seen too many tournaments with unbalanced pools, so that is why I am saying this.
And another concern that I just remembered (from you saying hype matchups being region vs region). I believe I missed your post about it, but SKidd told me a while ago you said you were going to make pools as hype as possible. As nice as having hype matchups at a tournament would be, I think you should focus more on making sure all the pools and brackets are even. I haven't seen your pools yet (you haven't released them), so I have no idea what you did. From my understanding of SKidd's description, you are "forcing" (can't think of the right word) in hype matchups. However, if you have, say, me, Alphicans and Ben all in the same pool (Me and Ben have somewhat of a history, me and Alphi is obvious, and Ben and Alphi have somewhat of a history iirc), then the other three people in our pool might as well book their ticket into the amateur bracket since there are three very high level players in their pool (I am not saying we are the top 3, I was using us as an example). Also, having one very hype matchup of two very good people may cause another pool to be much easier.
So... basically, what I think you should do (I don't know how you did pools, but according to SKidd's description, I am going to say this anyways just in case) is separate who you think are the top 8 attendees and put them in pools. Then separate the next 8 and put them in pools (separated by region). Then separate the next 8. Then the next 8, and so on and so fourth. That way, each pool will be somewhat even, and the lower three seeds won't get completely destroyed by an overpowered pool.
If you did it well already, then ignore this. I haven't seen the pools, so I don't know how you separated people.
I forgot what I posted (I wrote this out about 30 minutes ago since someone MSN messaged me and I got distracted, and I'm too lazy to re-read what I posted), so... yeah, warning, I may have left stuff in I would normally remove after re-reading.
Edit:
My main point in the second half of the post iirc is don't try too hard to force in hype matchups. If one so happens to happen, then so be it. If not, then new ones will form. I would personally prefer to have my hype matchups wait until mid-late bracket rather than in the first round of pools. Otherwise, I will go all-out since it's a matchup I want to win, but now I'm mentally exhausted and won't play my other matches well enough (or will need to take a break before my next matchup). Obviously I will have hard matchups in my pool (e.g. I might have Tin Man or something), but... yeah. What I just said. I'd also rather play people I haven't faced before in pools if possible rather than someone I played before.
I don't know what people's opinions are on this, but if you want to have hype matchups, they will happen in the brackets anyways, so no need to force them in earlier. As I said, I would prefer to have people I haven't faced before in my bracket (e.g. USA, most of Alberta, EC Canada, some mainly lower seed BC).
Edit edit: Jake, from what you are saying, it sounds like your main priority is to have regions face each other, and have known hype matchups happen. As nice as both of these sound, I think you should make sure the brackets are balanced more than the others. Separating by region can be done easily even with 4 pools, it's not that hard (I may have worked with a smaller attendance, but it's still easy to do). And as far as hype matchups... don't rig the brackets so they happen, just let them happen. For example, don't make me and Alphicans face each other in the first round of the bracket, otherwise one of us will be sent into the loser's bracket way too early. Just make a bracket balanced and region-separated and don't force in hype matchups. If they end up happening, then yay. If not, then new rivalries will form and more hype matchups will happen at the next tournament. If you force them in, you will have unbalanced brackets, and you will have one or more people complain that they were eliminated earlier than they should have been because the bracket wasn't made properly.
I've seen too many tournaments with unbalanced pools, so that is why I am saying this.
bundtcake
Smash Ace
lol. <_< jake's not a bad enough tourney organizer that he's literally forcing hype matches despite pool balance, just that there's multiple combinations of properly balanced pools and some of them contain hype matches: those are the pools he's trying to set up, but balance always comes first
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
I am not saying Jake is a bad tourney organizer. He is really good. However, I am just making sure that he is making sure they are balanced before anything. Between what people have told me, and him saying stuff like:
And as I said:
I am just posting that to make sure. I have personally attended tourneys (not all smash) where the organizer makes two people or teams face each other early for the fan's pleasure, essentially killing one team's chances of doing well (some of these organizers are very good). So... yeah, just making sure Jake isn't falling for the same trap (and as I said, I haven't seen the pools, so I don't know if he did that or not, so I was just posting that to be sure).
And as I said:
Crisis
Smash Ace
put fe lix in my pool jake =D
Tin Man
Smash Hero
My Mistake Blue Yoshi, I hear you now. I know in my region we have a PR that we can follow to seed the 8 1st seeders, however, there is no PR for Canada hence your concern
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
Exactly what Tin Man said. It's fine in instances where, like in his region, the relative skill level of the players is fairly well known that seeing 8 1st seeds will usually end up in even brackets anyways. However, we will have 8 1st seeds where we don't know who would rank where (not to mention it's likely a second seed may be a top 5, but was placed with a top 3 player who got 1st in the same pool). Doing a second round of pools simply allows for more accurate seeding.
With no absolute end time for the tournament, we do have time to add another round of pools. Obviously we don't have forever, but adding one more round of pools won't cause too many problems.
With no absolute end time for the tournament, we do have time to add another round of pools. Obviously we don't have forever, but adding one more round of pools won't cause too many problems.
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
Tin Man
Smash Hero
I wouldn't mind 2 rounds of pools personally. More ppl to MM 
But yeah, time would be an issue, but it certainly is possible. It would involve a significantly higher level of strictness.
But yeah, time would be an issue, but it certainly is possible. It would involve a significantly higher level of strictness.
Kantrip
Kantplay
Landon, smashfest at your house tomorrow, right? Could I get information please?
Tin Man
Smash Hero
Yo, someone should bring a camcorder or something. We need to get video recorded interviews : D
Kantrip
Kantplay
What time is the smashfest?
and what city is it in again?
MeSSi
Smash Ace
oshi bringing back JG's tournyfix. sweet
Kantrip
Kantplay
SKidd, you need a controller too?
SinisterB
Smash Champion
I have one, but you need to reset it after like every match atm.
Really wanted to hit up Landon's fest, it sounds maaaaad hype. Other friends are *******s though and i won't be able to make it. i'll
have a fest before the tourney though!
Most annoying thing ever. ****.
Really wanted to hit up Landon's fest, it sounds maaaaad hype. Other friends are *******s though and i won't be able to make it. i'll
maybe
sorry guys I was at church as usual cause that's how I roll.
show up at like 1 or 2, leave by 10 or 11. There will be dinner provided courtesy of Landon's Mom. Also SKidd you'd better show up. Thanks for memorizing my address, it makes me feel safe.
show up at like 1 or 2, leave by 10 or 11. There will be dinner provided courtesy of Landon's Mom. Also SKidd you'd better show up. Thanks for memorizing my address, it makes me feel safe.
Kantrip
Kantplay
Who's going to be there tomorrow? And which town do you live in, again?
Kantrip
Kantplay
Alright, sounds good
I'll be there.
I'll be there.