Official Patch 3.0.0 - Persona Edition: Discussion Thread

[NGW]

*sees completely bs and unnecessary changes to R.O.B. and Duck Hunt*

Go to Hell Nintendo!

 

[godogod]

Mewtwo got a buff in weight. Can anyone check how many units more? I reckon only 1-2 units. From 77 to 79...

 

[link2702]

Man I really expected nintendo to do more with character buffs this game. I doubted(and hoped) they wouldn't go crazy with the nerf hammer in patches, and so far it seems they haven't TOO much(all tiny nerfs at most, many universal), But damn some characters could really use some buffs and Nintendo seems scared to do so.

 

[KakuCP9]

Man I really expected nintendo to do more with character buffs this game. I doubted(and hoped) they wouldn't go crazy with the nerf hammer in patches, and so far it seems they haven't TOO much(all tiny nerfs at most, many universal), But damn some characters could really use some buffs and Nintendo seems scared to do so.

Consider the following

I don't understand why everyone went into this patch (or every patch for that matter) thinking it would clear their skin and water their crops. Even after a few months, they're not going just suddenly bring huge chunks of the cast up to scratch due to the sheer fact that they have to test a metric ton of stuff with a giant cast in order to make proper changes, unless you want more down throw confirm fixes like the previous game (also, consider DBZF where it took nearly a year for characters like Nappa, Beerus (and a lesser extent) Android 17 to become genuinely functional and that game wasn't nearly as big as this one in terms of cast size so it puts it into perspective how long it can take for character changing buffs to roll out.).
Hell, I imagine the universal projectile changes took priority of character specific stuff since while not meta dominant, they exposed a hole in ultimate's design where parrying them felt non-rewarding compared to the timing required (something the CCI talked about a while ago) and due to the weaker shields, can be frustrating to deal with (especially if the character has bad mobility). I don't know how it will play out, but I am intrigued by these changes.
The only thing I'm legitimately disappointed about is the lack of rock-crocking fix for Ganon and Falcon (but they fixed Pichu stupid hurtbox and Donkey Kong's giant punch so good on them for that).

It's not fear that's holding them back, its logistics. They aren't going to magically buff up characters in a single patch due to the sheer size of the game and it will take a quite a few patches before a decent chunk (much less everyone) gets the buffs they need.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I'll be happy when I can simply download this and play the **** I paid money for.

Real fantastic company, Nintendo, millions (billions?) of dollars to run your services with and you can't even have them work consistently.

 

[NGW]

I'll be happy when I can simply download this and play the **** I paid money for.

Real fantastic company, Nintendo, millions (billions?) of dollars to run your services with and you can't even have them work consistently.

Can you believe people actually though the shift to paid online was actually to make things better rather than simple greed and money grabbing?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Not sure what they mean specifically about power against shields, but just to be safe I will collect block stats for those moves. Okay here's the patch 2.02 values for some of these changes. All damage values given are base damage. When comparing, make sure there are 2 CPUs in Training Mode. And when I say "total frames" I do mean the duration of the move. In other words, FAF minus 1.

Spoiler: Pre-patch values

Global change: Endlag on Perfect shield. Just going to take note of some examples

• When perfect shielding Samus' full charged shot (28.0% damage), Mario was stuck for 27 total frames before he could move. 19 of those frames appear to be the Perfect shield's version of "shieldlag" since Mario is not moving
• When perfect shielding Link's uncharged arrow (4.0% damage), Mario was stuck for 9 total frames before he could move. 7 of those frames appear to be the perfect shield's version of "shieldlag" since mario is not moving

Bayonetta

• Neutral Special uncharged deals 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. Charged version deals 7 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Bowser Jr

• Jab 2 delivers 10 frames of hitstun on Mario at 0% with the closer hitbox, and 8 frames of hitstun with the farther hitbox

Cloud

• Neutral B deals 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun up close, 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun far away. Air version deals 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun up close, 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun far away

Corrin

• U-Smash hitbox is active on frames 13-15
• Side Special has a 15 frame waiting period (counting the frame the pin touches the ground) before Corrin can perform any of the four options.
• Up Special is invulnerable to attacks on frame 10-17
• Neutral Special uncharged projectile lasts from frame 17-62 and travels about 40-45% the length of battlefield

Dark Pit

• Neutral B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge

Diddy Kong

• F-Tilt is active on frames 10-13
• U-Air deals 6.0% damage
• Dash Attack hits on frames 9, 18, and 24. Move is 42 total frames.

Dr. Mario

• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. This does not change with the projectile's late hit.

Duck Hunt

• Neutral B delivers 9 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun. Minus 1 shieldlag if you only count the explosion and not the can making contact
• Side B delivers 9 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. On activation the multiple shots deliver 7 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun, and the final shot deliver 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Greninja

• Partial Charged Neutral B delivers 5-8 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on level of charge
  • Full charge delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on its multihits, 11 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on its final hit.

Isabelle

• F-air's 7.0% hitbox delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 4.0% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 2.5% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun
• B-air's 9,0% hitbocs delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 5.0% hitbox is 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 3.0% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Ivysaur

• Side B's 8.0% hitbox delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 6.0% hitbox delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 4.0% hitbox delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

King Dedede

• Gordos deliver 8-12 shieldlag and 4-5 shieldlag depending on how long they've been active.

King K Rool

• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun when going out. When returning it delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Down B is 67 total frames when you fail. When successful, it is 46 total frames on the counterattack (not counting counter freeze frames), and 47 total frames on the reflect. Though depending on what you count as part of the animation, both are 47 total frames.
• U-Air is 81 total frames. 13 landing lag

Kirby

• Usmash late hit (which is a 13.0% / 12.0% hitbox depending on proximity) begins on frame 14, when the move is hitting directly above Kirby. Check if a target on a platform above him is still receiving those damage values.
• Dthrow deals 0.8 damage on the first nine hits. The tenth deals 1.0. The eleventh deals 2.0. Total damage is 10.2%
• Up B grabs ledges beginning on frame 36 in front of him. He won't grab ledges behind him.
• N-air is 62 total frames
  • N-air's autocancels on frames 1-4 and 56 onward

Link

• Side B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shiedlstun depending on tilt or smash input and whether it's a late hit
  • When the boomerang is returning it delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Lucario

• Neutral B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shieldstun at 0% aura depending on charge
  • At max aura, it delivers 8-15 shieldlag and 4-8 shieldstun depending on charge

Luigi

• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun regardless of early or late hit.

Mario

• Neutral B delivers 6 shiedlag and 3 shieldstun on early hit. 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on late hit.

Mega Man

• Down B hits every 11 frames whether it's still on Mega Man or has been thrown.
• Down B's initial use is 34 total frames. The throw is 53 total frames
• Buster shots deliver 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. But the cannon delivers 4 shieldstun and 3 shieldlag when on the ground
• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun.

Mewtwo

• Ledge dodge is invulnerable on frames 1-23
• Neutral B delivers 5-14 shieldlag and 2-7 shieldstun depending on charge.
• F-Tilt deals 10.0, 9.0 and 8.0 damage depending on how close you are.
• U-Air deals 11.0, 10.0, and 9.0 damage depending on how close you are.
• U-Tilt deals 6.0, 5.0, 4.5, 4.0, and 3,0 damage depending on how close you are and whether it's an early or late hit.
• Jab 1 is 6 startup with 22 total frames. The multijab is 5 startup and hits every three frames. The finisher is 6 startup with 40 total frames.

Mii Gunner

• Down B 2 (Bomb Drop) deals 17 shieldlag counting both the contact and explosion hitboxes(they are a blockstring, but four of those frames are technically shieldstun), and 4 shieldstun on the explosion
• Neutral B 1 deals 8-17 shieldlag and 2-8 shiedlstun depending on level of charge
• Neutral B 3's multihit delivers 4 shieldlag. The final hit delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Side B 1 delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun and doesn't erupt on shields.
• Side B 3 homing missile delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
  • Super missile delivers 10 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun

Mii Swordfighter

• Neutral B 1 delivers 9 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun on 13.0% hitbox. 8 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on the 11.0 and 10.0 hitboxes
• Neutral B 2 delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the 2.0% hitbox, 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the 3.5% hitbox. 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the 5.0 and 6.5 hitnoxxes
• Side B 3 delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the strong throw
  • The weak throw delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun and bounces off shields rather than continuing to hit the target.

Ness

• DSmash charging hold is frame 12, same frame where the charging hitbox appears. That hitbox will hit the same target once every 4 frames until Ness releases the move.
• USmash charging hold is frame 10, same frame where the charging hitbox appears. That hitbox will hit the same target once every 4 frames until Ness releases the move.

Olimar

• Side B Pikmin do not cause damage or shieldlag/stun to a blocking target unless it's a purple. However, when the other types of pikmin do have 5 shieldlag before they bounce off.
  • Side B Purple Pikmin delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• F-Smash is...look just use my chart, I'm not writing all of that out.
  • It's true that Fsmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed.
• It's true that Dsmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed
• It's true that Usmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed.

Pac-Man

• Down B delivers 7 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on the initial spawn.
  • the Hydrant delivers 9 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun when launched by an attack
• Neutral B delivers the amount of shieldlag and shieldstun I have written out in the chart

Palutena

• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on each shot.
• Side B delivers 4 shieldlag on the multihit and unknown shieldstun because it's a blockstring. Final hit delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Peach/Daisy

• Vegetables deliver 7-15 shieldlag and 3-8 shieldstun depending on Veggie type and how it is thrown and current item velocity.
  • When Z-Dropped, it delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun assuming it has picked up no velocity.\

Pichu

• Neutral B delivers 12 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on a direct hit. An arcing hit will deliver 10-9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun depending on how far it has traveled.

Pikachu

• Neutral B delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on a direct hit and on early arcing hit. On the latest arcing hit (4.0% damage) it delivers 8 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Pit

• Neutral B delivers 5-7 shieldlag and 2-3 shieldstun depending on charge.

R.O.B.

• Down B delivers 5-8 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on level of charge and whether the gyro is just spinning in place on the ground.
• Neutral B projectile delivers 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun at partial charge. At full charge it delivers 13 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun

Ridley

• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun at any level of charge

Robin

• Side B deals 6 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the initial hit
  • Pillar multihit is 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. Final hit is 11 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun
• Thunder deals 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Elthunder deals 13 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun
• Archtunder is a blockstring until the final hit which is 11 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Rosalina & Luma

• Neutral B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge.
• Side B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on each hit.

Roy

• Ledge attack delivers 12 frames of hitlag and 8 frames of shieldlag

Ryu/Ken

• Ledge attack delivers 15 frames of hitlag and 12 frames of shieldlag

Samus/Dark Samus

• Neutral special delivers 9-17 shieldlag and 3-8 shieldstun depending on charge

Sheik

• Rapid Jab finisher is 41 total frames
• Neutral B takes 101 frames to reach full charge.

Simon/Richter

• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the tilt input. A smash input delivers the same amount.
  • A returning hit delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun regardless of strength of the throw

Snake

• Usmash is 50 total frames
• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun when touching a shield
  • Explosion delivers 8 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun

Toon Link

• Side B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shieldstun depending on smash/tilt input and whether it's a late hit
  • A returning hit delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Villager

• F-air delivers 7/5/5 shieldlag and 3/3/2 shieldstun depending on a 7.0/4.0/2.5 damage hit.
• B-air delivers 7/6/5 shieldlag and 4/3/2 shieldstun depending on a 9.0/5.0/3.0 damage hit.
• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on an early hit. A late hit is 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Wario

• Neutral B eats projectiles as early as frame 9 (weird since it grabs as early as frame 8)
  • But he eats his bike as early as frame 2.
  • The eat animation for projectiles is 35 total frames. But when eating his bike it's 55 total frames

Wii Fit Trainer

• Neutral B delivers 6-13 shieldlag and 3-6 shieldstun depending on charge.
• Side B projectile delivers 8 sheildlag and 4 shieldstun
• Down B effect lasts for just under ten seconds when fresh

Wolf

• Neutral B projectile delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Yoshi

• Up B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Young Link

• Neutral B delivers 5-9 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on charge
• Side B delivers 7-9 shieldlag and 3-5 shielstun depending on tilt/smash input and whether it's a late hit
  • The returning hit delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Zelda

• Down B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge.

 

[DelugeFGC]

still can't even download the update. LOL

 

[NGW]

still can't even download the update. LOL

Same.

Nintendo sure is competent with online stuff eh?

 

[Shaya]

Ummm so clearly some things need help testing:

What exactly is the reduction of power against shields?
Is it static (like let's say, 20% less shield stun than before?), or individual to each move (i.e. 5%, 10%, 50%?)

People with the capability to side by side this stuff would be incredibly helpful!

Differentiating between whether this is a shield stun or shield hitlag change, etc etc.
Whether it appies to shield stun values (which has a base of 2) or to the damage value (so a 10% projectile now has the same impact as a 5% one).

Well, when we can, I doubt the 4 people and the cat with the patch thus far have a spare switch to test. BUT MAYBE there are some people with the patch available now, and people who do not who are willing to collaborate ??

Let it be known if you have the patch and are willing to do some frame counts for some of these characters!

(EDIT: ZAPP TO THE RESCUE, I didnt see it! LOL)

 

[Untouch]

Gunla
In regards to WFT in 3.0.0.
The ball spawn position in side b was not changed, there was a glitch called "ball passing" that let you clip the ball into the stage and hit it through the stage, this has been fixed.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Bayonetta didn't get buffed is the problem here.

Her Meta is at it's peak, her competitive scene dropped her, her recovery frames are up to 50, her landing lag is too high, she cant kill, her startup is still below average, frame 9 jab, lowered smash multiplier, lowered smash multiplier in witch time, hitboxes are smaller than you think, kill throw is terrible, bullet arts useless, no approach, no throw pressure, no shield pressure, frame 8 counter-

Must I continue? Her own Up tilt doesn't even work at times because hitboxes won't connect! The Bayocord was kinda hyped for this and they fixed nothing and hit us with a petty Nerf.

Don't you tell anyone to push the meta. She's a horrible bottom 10 character, and now she's a meme at this point.

Your reaction is a clear example of outrage culture though.

This update wasn't very substantial when it came to balancing, doing only small buffs and nerfs alongside universal changes. But this is only the second balance patch they've released so far and the game is only 5 months old; it is still too early too expect big balance changes. There are four more balance patches guaranteed to come until february 2020, with perhaps even a couple more in between. Characters like Bayonetta who need buffs still have hope for them.

"Don't you tell anyone to push the meta"

This is product of a mediocre mindset. When your first reaction to this update is to quit and tell others that there is no point in pushing the meta, you are part of the problem as a player, because you've given up on growing. You are basically just waiting for the devs to rain that magical Kool Aid down from the heavens and fix all of your life problems rather than see what you can do better as a player.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ummm so clearly some things need help testing:

What exactly is the reduction of power against shields?
Is it static (like let's say, 20% less shield stun than before?), or individual to each move (i.e. 5%, 10%, 50%?)

People with the capability to side by side this stuff would be incredibly helpful!

Differentiating between whether this is a shield stun or shield hitlag change, etc etc.
Whether it appies to shield stun values (which has a base of 2) or to the damage value (so a 10% projectile now has the same impact as a 5% one).

Well, when we can, I doubt the 4 people and the cat with the patch thus far have a spare switch to test. BUT MAYBE there are some people with the patch available now, and people who do not who are willing to collaborate ??

Let it be known if you have the patch and are willing to do some frame counts for some of these characters!

Here's a visual example:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

"Don't you tell anyone to push the meta"

This is product of a mediocre mindset. When your first reaction to this update is to quit and tell others that there is no point in pushing the meta, you are part of the problem as a player, because you've given up on growing. You are basically just waiting for the devs to rain that magical Kool Aid down from the heaves and fix all of your life problems rather than see what you can do better as a player.

There is no objective point in keep using Bayonetta and keep pushing her meta.
She's a bad character and there is no hope that it will change in the future since it's the third time her flaws have been ignored.
If you're serious about competing you either set your bar very low and settle with whatever little results you can get with your bad character, or change to a good one.
And she's not the only character suffering from this.

 

[Shaya]

By the looks of things on that image, it seems like it's going to be a damage multiplier, similar to how short hop aerials/etc have them?

Or, hilariously, what if the shield damage is less but the shield stun is the same?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Or, hilariously, what if the shield damage is less but the shield stun is the same?

That's how I read it.
That'd be interesting because it means projectiles didn't lose their camping capability, just their shield pressure.
And even more since Projectiles and Powershields have different dynamics now.
Meta might be wildly different (but swords will be equally as dominant as always).

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Your reaction is a clear example of outrage culture though.

You mean Patch culture. Outrage culture is something completely different, like being outraged that x character is too sexy and demand it to change.

I know the game is still somewhat young, but I think it is old enough to take bigger patches, especially when there are a good amount of results now. At least look at Mac boi.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

It is way too early to see how these changes will affect the meta, because we don’t even understand exactly what these changes mean! In addition, I’m sure most of us aren’t even able to download 3.0.0 at this moment.

On character nerfs/buffs: this was definitely NOT a major one and it seems they’re trying to fix/change the major things before moving on to more specific fine-tunings with characters. Of course some characters got some lover and others got left in the dust but I’m guessing that’s what smaller updates will be used for in the future.

All in all, I approve of the lack of major buffs/nerfs again as the game is still very young and I feel it’s pretty well-balanced as is. Except Olimar... he can suck it.

 

[Methacrylate]

Shaya shrooby

The Corrincord has been labbing the changes and have made a document on our findings thus far. Note that the numbers here are achieved through frame counting in training mode going frame by frame. We had three people (CowDefenestrator, Doctordonut, and Promaelia) all test each move for agreement on the frame numbers in the document. As we find more we will be updating this document, but we are mostly complete so I figured I would tag you both with the information currently.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M0Jk7gwAQIE2kRUELZvIvLEq2zwVn2hpTWypPyPdldI/edit

Thanks to CowDefenestrator for compiling this document. If you have any questions let me know.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Make him be able to recover using Side+B as many times as he wants. Who thought it was a good idea to nullify his only good recovery after getting hit out of it?

I think I won't even ask for killthrows or anything. Just fix what wasn't broken to begin with.

 

[webbedspace]

I find it a little silly that people expected huge shakeups and sweeping buffs when this update had not just a new character, but a whole new game mode in it and new social media features. Obviously working on all that means less dev time left over to tweak characters. Let's keep some perspective here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Honestly these bayo players are being ridiculous. Your character isn't a broken PoS now and all y'all do is cry. Well guess what we don't give a damn. I hope they continue to nerf this character and I hope you guys continue to cry and moan. Or quit either way I enjoy your plight. Eat a .

Also I think the Diddy buffs are really good and the m2 buffs. I still don't think its going to be enough for m2 though probably more QoL changes than anything.

 

[LGameTales]

I tested Marth's dash grab reach before and after the update by making him stand a certain distance away from Lucina, having Lucina crouch, and then releasing the crouch while on the same frame inputting dash as Marth, and then grab on the next frame. (Lucina transitions from crouching to standing at the same time Marth does an instant dash grab.)

It whiffs at 2.45 units away and grabs at 2.40 units away in both versions. The dash grab buff was not a buff to forward reach. (If it was, it's insignificant.)

 

[Big O]

From what I'm getting, it looks like parrying projectiles leaves you at +1 compared to blocking them normally. Was previously -2 compared to blocking. Also, for w/e reason I think Samus charge shot has more shieldhitlag than before ( 9-24 vs 9-17). Sheldstun unchanged, but damage to shields is much lower.

 

[godogod]

According to Smash Wiki, Mewtwo's weight was changed from 77 to 79.

 

[Nysyr]

Didn't think they'd nerf Lucario again, but here we are.

Nice to see Sheik getting love, but this is only a start and not really fixes in the right places for Sheik - still need ways to kill.

 

[1FC0]

I do believe olimar had a tether only recovery in brawl as well and did pretty good for himself.

Joker looks pretty sick and will probably be a hit and run character he seems like he's going to be really hard to hit. Should be fun playing him.

And tethers have been buffed immensely since SSBB where tethers could be edgehogged so I really do not think they are that much of a problem per se.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

From what I'm getting, it looks like parrying projectiles leaves you at +1 compared to blocking them normally. Was previously -2 compared to blocking. Also, for w/e reason I think Samus charge shot has more shieldhitlag than before ( 9-24 vs 9-17). Sheldstun unchanged, but damage to shields is much lower.

I'm actually looking at all the projectiles right now and I'm at a loss as to why Samus/Dark Samus and Mii Gunner's Charge Shots have significantly more hitlag.

Haven't found any differences yet with other projectiles, the shieldstun and shieldlag seem the same as before, there's just a clear difference in damage dealt to shields.

 

[DelugeFGC]

First of impression of Joker leaves.. real mid-tierish vibes. But it's too soon to really say.

I really don't like that all of his kill power comes from having Rebellion filled, because the only real way to fill the gauge is by taking hits or risking your ass via countering hits. So that leaves a character with fairly OKAY combo game (from what I've found labbing anyway) out of throws and tilts, some zoning / space control stuff and a safer neutral than most.. but he doesn't build damage fast or have ANY kill power until Rebellion is full. That's really gonna hurt him, imo. At least he has Cloud's DTilt.

He feels like a bizarre mish-mash of several other character's moves on top of his own unique gimmicky comeback mechanic thing.. and some zoning. I'm really not the biggest fan, but I don't think he felt straight unviable. You could do some work with him.

My main, Olimar, feels even more powerful now. He's lost some of his shield pressure, yes, but so has the entire roster pretty much and the fact charging his Smash Attacks WORKS now has left me in a position where he just feels.. better. Mostly the same, but overall, better off. The Space Cowboy is still definitely top tier boys.

 

[Masonomace]

Ver. 3.0.0

UAir: FAF from 82 → 72

Gut Check:
Stance endlag: FAF from 68 → 63
Counterattack endlag: FAF from 48 → 43
Reverse counterattack endlag: FAF from 54 → 49

EDIT: Sorry if K Rool findings were already put down.

 

[LGameTales]

I'm not sure if this needed confirmation, but Mewtwo's weight is now 79 from 77.
Lucina's DTilt sends him into tumble at 77%. It would be 76% if the weight was 78.
Marth's tipper DTilt sends him into tumble at 51%. It would be 52% if the weight was 80.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Not sure what they mean specifically about power against shields, but just to be safe I will collect block stats for those moves. Okay here's the patch 2.02 values for some of these changes. All damage values given are base damage. When comparing, make sure there are 2 CPUs in Training Mode. And when I say "total frames" I do mean the duration of the move. In other words, FAF minus 1.

Spoiler: Pre-patch values

Global change: Endlag on Perfect shield. Just going to take note of some examples

• When perfect shielding Samus' full charged shot (28.0% damage), Mario was stuck for 27 total frames before he could move. 19 of those frames appear to be the Perfect shield's version of "shieldlag" since Mario is not moving
• When perfect shielding Link's uncharged arrow (4.0% damage), Mario was stuck for 9 total frames before he could move. 7 of those frames appear to be the perfect shield's version of "shieldlag" since mario is not moving

Bayonetta

• Neutral Special uncharged deals 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. Charged version deals 7 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Bowser Jr

• Jab 2 delivers 10 frames of hitstun on Mario at 0% with the closer hitbox, and 8 frames of hitstun with the farther hitbox

Cloud

• Neutral B deals 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun up close, 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun far away. Air version deals 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun up close, 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun far away

Corrin

• U-Smash hitbox is active on frames 13-15
• Side Special has a 15 frame waiting period (counting the frame the pin touches the ground) before Corrin can perform any of the four options.
• Up Special is invulnerable to attacks on frame 10-17
• Neutral Special uncharged projectile lasts from frame 17-62 and travels about 40-45% the length of battlefield

Dark Pit

• Neutral B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge

Diddy Kong

• F-Tilt is active on frames 10-13
• U-Air deals 6.0% damage
• Dash Attack hits on frames 9, 18, and 24. Move is 42 total frames.

Dr. Mario

• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. This does not change with the projectile's late hit.

Duck Hunt

• Neutral B delivers 9 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun. Minus 1 shieldlag if you only count the explosion and not the can making contact
• Side B delivers 9 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. On activation the multiple shots deliver 7 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun, and the final shot deliver 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Greninja

• Partial Charged Neutral B delivers 5-8 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on level of charge
  • Full charge delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on its multihits, 11 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on its final hit.

Isabelle

• F-air's 7.0% hitbox delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 4.0% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 2.5% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun
• B-air's 9,0% hitbocs delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 5.0% hitbox is 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 3.0% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Ivysaur

• Side B's 8.0% hitbox delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 6.0% hitbox delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 4.0% hitbox delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

King Dedede

• Gordos deliver 8-12 shieldlag and 4-5 shieldlag depending on how long they've been active.

King K Rool

• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun when going out. When returning it delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Down B is 67 total frames when you fail. When successful, it is 46 total frames on the counterattack (not counting counter freeze frames), and 47 total frames on the reflect. Though depending on what you count as part of the animation, both are 47 total frames.
• U-Air is 81 total frames. 13 landing lag

Kirby

• Usmash late hit (which is a 13.0% / 12.0% hitbox depending on proximity) begins on frame 14, when the move is hitting directly above Kirby. Check if a target on a platform above him is still receiving those damage values.
• Dthrow deals 0.8 damage on the first nine hits. The tenth deals 1.0. The eleventh deals 2.0. Total damage is 10.2%
• Up B grabs ledges beginning on frame 36 in front of him. He won't grab ledges behind him.
• N-air is 62 total frames
  • N-air's autocancels on frames 1-4 and 56 onward

Link

• Side B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shiedlstun depending on tilt or smash input and whether it's a late hit
  • When the boomerang is returning it delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Lucario

• Neutral B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shieldstun at 0% aura depending on charge
  • At max aura, it delivers 8-15 shieldlag and 4-8 shieldstun depending on charge

Luigi

• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun regardless of early or late hit.

Mario

• Neutral B delivers 6 shiedlag and 3 shieldstun on early hit. 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on late hit.

Mega Man

• Down B hits every 11 frames whether it's still on Mega Man or has been thrown.
• Down B's initial use is 34 total frames. The throw is 53 total frames
• Buster shots deliver 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. But the cannon delivers 4 shieldstun and 3 shieldlag when on the ground
• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun.

Mewtwo

• Ledge dodge is invulnerable on frames 1-23
• Neutral B delivers 5-14 shieldlag and 2-7 shieldstun depending on charge.
• F-Tilt deals 10.0, 9.0 and 8.0 damage depending on how close you are.
• U-Air deals 11.0, 10.0, and 9.0 damage depending on how close you are.
• U-Tilt deals 6.0, 5.0, 4.5, 4.0, and 3,0 damage depending on how close you are and whether it's an early or late hit.
• Jab 1 is 6 startup with 22 total frames. The multijab is 5 startup and hits every three frames. The finisher is 6 startup with 40 total frames.

Mii Gunner

• Down B 2 (Bomb Drop) deals 17 shieldlag counting both the contact and explosion hitboxes(they are a blockstring, but four of those frames are technically shieldstun), and 4 shieldstun on the explosion
• Neutral B 1 deals 8-17 shieldlag and 2-8 shiedlstun depending on level of charge
• Neutral B 3's multihit delivers 4 shieldlag. The final hit delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Side B 1 delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun and doesn't erupt on shields.
• Side B 3 homing missile delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
  • Super missile delivers 10 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun

Mii Swordfighter

• Neutral B 1 delivers 9 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun on 13.0% hitbox. 8 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on the 11.0 and 10.0 hitboxes
• Neutral B 2 delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the 2.0% hitbox, 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the 3.5% hitbox. 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the 5.0 and 6.5 hitnoxxes
• Side B 3 delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the strong throw
  • The weak throw delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun and bounces off shields rather than continuing to hit the target.

Ness

• DSmash charging hold is frame 12, same frame where the charging hitbox appears. That hitbox will hit the same target once every 4 frames until Ness releases the move.
• USmash charging hold is frame 10, same frame where the charging hitbox appears. That hitbox will hit the same target once every 4 frames until Ness releases the move.

Olimar

• Side B Pikmin do not cause damage or shieldlag/stun to a blocking target unless it's a purple. However, when the other types of pikmin do have 5 shieldlag before they bounce off.
  • Side B Purple Pikmin delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• F-Smash is...look just use my chart, I'm not writing all of that out.
  • It's true that Fsmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed.
• It's true that Dsmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed
• It's true that Usmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed.

Pac-Man

• Down B delivers 7 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on the initial spawn.
  • the Hydrant delivers 9 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun when launched by an attack
• Neutral B delivers the amount of shieldlag and shieldstun I have written out in the chart

Palutena

• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on each shot.
• Side B delivers 4 shieldlag on the multihit and unknown shieldstun because it's a blockstring. Final hit delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Peach/Daisy

• Vegetables deliver 7-15 shieldlag and 3-8 shieldstun depending on Veggie type and how it is thrown and current item velocity.
  • When Z-Dropped, it delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun assuming it has picked up no velocity.\

Pichu

• Neutral B delivers 12 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on a direct hit. An arcing hit will deliver 10-9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun depending on how far it has traveled.

Pikachu

• Neutral B delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on a direct hit and on early arcing hit. On the latest arcing hit (4.0% damage) it delivers 8 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Pit

• Neutral B delivers 5-7 shieldlag and 2-3 shieldstun depending on charge.

R.O.B.

• Down B delivers 5-8 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on level of charge and whether the gyro is just spinning in place on the ground.
• Neutral B projectile delivers 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun at partial charge. At full charge it delivers 13 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun

Ridley

• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun at any level of charge

Robin

• Side B deals 6 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the initial hit
  • Pillar multihit is 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. Final hit is 11 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun
• Thunder deals 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Elthunder deals 13 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun
• Archtunder is a blockstring until the final hit which is 11 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Rosalina & Luma

• Neutral B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge.
• Side B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on each hit.

Roy

• Ledge attack delivers 12 frames of hitlag and 8 frames of shieldlag

Ryu/Ken

• Ledge attack delivers 15 frames of hitlag and 12 frames of shieldlag

Samus/Dark Samus

• Neutral special delivers 9-17 shieldlag and 3-8 shieldstun depending on charge

Sheik

• Rapid Jab finisher is 41 total frames
• Neutral B takes 101 frames to reach full charge.

Simon/Richter

• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the tilt input. A smash input delivers the same amount.
  • A returning hit delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun regardless of strength of the throw

Snake

• Usmash is 50 total frames
• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun when touching a shield
  • Explosion delivers 8 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun

Toon Link

• Side B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shieldstun depending on smash/tilt input and whether it's a late hit
  • A returning hit delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Villager

• F-air delivers 7/5/5 shieldlag and 3/3/2 shieldstun depending on a 7.0/4.0/2.5 damage hit.
• B-air delivers 7/6/5 shieldlag and 4/3/2 shieldstun depending on a 9.0/5.0/3.0 damage hit.
• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on an early hit. A late hit is 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Wario

• Neutral B eats projectiles as early as frame 9 (weird since it grabs as early as frame 8)
  • But he eats his bike as early as frame 2.
  • The eat animation for projectiles is 35 total frames. But when eating his bike it's 55 total frames

Wii Fit Trainer

• Neutral B delivers 6-13 shieldlag and 3-6 shieldstun depending on charge.
• Side B projectile delivers 8 sheildlag and 4 shieldstun

Wolf

• Neutral B projectile delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Yoshi

• Up B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Young Link

• Neutral B delivers 5-9 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on charge
• Side B delivers 7-9 shieldlag and 3-5 shielstun depending on tilt/smash input and whether it's a late hit
  • The returning hit delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Zelda

• Down B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge.

Alright now we're set to document precise patch changes. Shaya

Spoiler: Patch changes

Bowser Jr

• Jab 2 close hitbox delivers 13 frames of hitstun to Mario at 0% from 10. Far Hitbox is 11 frames of hitstun from 8.

Corrin

• Usmash active hit frames now 13-17 from 13-15
• Side B: When you pin the ground, the waiting period before you can choose one of the four options is now 13 frames from 15.
• Up B is now invulnerable on frames 7-17 from 10-17
• Neutral B: Uncharged shot lasts an additional ten frames (now disappears on frame 72) and has improved range as a result.

Diddy Kong

• F-tilt active hit frames now 10-14 from 10-13
• U-Air now deals 7.0 damage from 6,0
• Dash Attack startup now 8/16/22 from 9/18/24.
  • Total frames now 40 from 42.

King K Rool

• Down B total frames now 62 from 67
  • Counterattack now 42 frames from 47 (not counting freeze frames)
• U-Air total frames now 71 from 81

Kirby

• Usmash early hit damage now extends to frame 14. Late hit damage begins on 15, allowing Kirby to get the strong hit on targets above him instead of just in front.
• Dthrow hits 1-9 damage now 1.0 from 0.8. Total damage now 12.0 from 10.2
• Up B ledge snap in front of Kirby now begins on frame 33 from 36.
• N-Air total frames now 54 from 62.
  • Autocancels on frame 51 onward from 56. Still autocancels on frames 1-4.

Mega Man

• Down B: Leaf Shield creation startup now 9 from 7. Total frames now 35 from 34.
  • Leaf Shield throw total frames now 55 from 53

Mewtwo

• Ledge dodge invulnerable on frames 1-27 from 1-23
• F-Tilt damage now 11.0/10.0/9.0 from 10.0/9.0/8.0
• U-tilt damage now 7.0/6.0/5.5/5.0/4.0 from 6.0/5.0/4.5/4.0/3,0
• U-Air damage now 12.0/11.0/10.0 from 11.0/10.0/9.0
• Jab 1 startup now 5 from 6. Total frames now 21 from 22.

Mii Gunner

• Unlisted Change: Neutral B shieldlag now 8-23 from 8-17

Ness

• Dsmash charging hitbox hits every 6 frames instead of 4. This should help avoiding getting two framed by it if you have a hitbox recovery.
• Usmash charging hitbox also hits every 6 frames instead of 4.

Olimar

• All of Olimar's Smash attacks now correctly have their damage increased with charge.

Roy

• Ledge attack now deals 11 hitlag from 12. Shieldlag is unchanged at 8.

Ryu/Ken

• Ledge attack now deals 13 hitlag from 15. Shieldlag now 9 from 12

Samus/Dark Samus

• Unlisted Change: Neutral B shieldlag now 9-24 from 9-17

Sheik

• Rapid Jab finisher total frames now 35 from 41.
• Neutral B: Reaching full charge with Needles takes 86 frames from 101.

Snake

• Usmash total frames now 54 from 50

Wario

• Neutral B: Animation for Eating a projectile takes 25 frames from 35. Animation for eating a bike unchanged.

 

[Strong Badam]

I tested Marth's dash grab reach before and after the update by making him stand a certain distance away from Lucina, having Lucina crouch, and then releasing the crouch while on the same frame inputting dash as Marth, and then grab on the next frame. (Lucina transitions from crouching to standing at the same time Marth does an instant dash grab.)

It whiffs at 2.45 units away and grabs at 2.40 units away in both versions. The dash grab buff was not a buff to forward reach. (If it was, it's insignificant.)

This lines up with my observations as well. I think the grab change was mostly a z-axis thing, to address weird interactions with ROB. Chrom's patch notes had the same note and also had a similar interaction with ROB.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

It's a long set of patch notes but it's got 59 instances of "Reduced the power against shields.", all of them projectiles.

And they removed Daisy's one major difference.
Why tho? Is this like when Valve killed the Righteous Bison?

Minor notes: Sheik got range buff to forward air but I need to see how it plays out and Piranha Plant has got buff to neutral special. Think the opposite of what DDD's Gordos got in the last patch.

 

[1FC0]

You mean Patch culture. Outrage culture is something completely different, like being outraged that x character is too sexy and demand it to change.

What a weird example. Well I guess female WFT can be a bit distracting. In addition if she gets banned then people can still use male WFT so this would solve the sexiness problem without removing WFT.

Though personally I think that people should just learn to control themselves and focus on the fight at hand even if they face female WFT.

 

[LGameTales]

Although not listed in the patch notes, it seems Isabelle's Fishing Rod had some sort of tweak:

https://twitter.com/kyle_roath/status/1118825273422532608?s=21

 

[Lacrimosa]

Alright now we're set to document precise patch changes. Shaya

Spoiler: Patch changes

Bowser Jr

• Jab 2 close hitbox delivers 13 frames of hitstun to Mario at 0% from 10. Far Hitbox is 11 frames of hitstun from 8.

Corrin

• Usmash active hit frames now 13-17 from 13-15
• Side B: When you pin the ground, the waiting period before you can choose one of the four options is now 13 frames from 15.
• Up B is now invulnerable on frames 7-17 from 10-17
• Neutral B: Uncharged shot lasts an additional ten frames (now disappears on frame 72) and has improved range as a result.

Diddy Kong

• F-tilt active hit frames now 10-14 from 10-13
• U-Air now deals 7.0 damage from 6,0
• Dash Attack startup now 8/16/22 from 9/18/24.
  • Total frames now 40 from 42.

King K Rool

• Down B total frames now 62 from 67
  • Counterattack now 42 frames from 47 (not counting freeze frames)
• U-Air total frames now 71 from 81

Kirby

• Usmash early hit damage now extends to frame 14. Late hit damage begins on 15, allowing Kirby to get the strong hit on targets above him instead of just in front.
• Dthrow hits 1-9 damage now 1.0 from 0.8. Total damage now 12.0 from 10.2
• Up B ledge snap in front of Kirby now begins on frame 33 from 36.
• N-Air total frames now 54 from 62.
  • Autocancels on frame 51 onward from 56. Still autocancels on frames 1-4.

Mega Man

• Down B: Leaf Shield creation startup now 9 from 7. Total frames now 35 from 34.
  • Leaf Shield throw total frames now 55 from 53

Mewtwo

• Ledge dodge invulnerable on frames 1-27 from 1-23
• F-Tilt damage now 11.0/10.0/9.0 from 10.0/9.0/8.0
• U-tilt damage now 7.0/6.0/5.5/5.0/4.0 from 6.0/5.0/4.5/4.0/3,0
• U-Air damage now 12.0/11.0/10.0 from 11.0/10.0/9.0
• Jab 1 startup now 5 from 6. Total frames now 21 from 22.

Mii Gunner

• Unlisted Change: Neutral B shieldlag now 8-23 from 8-17

Ness

• Dsmash charging hitbox hits every 6 frames instead of 4. This should help avoiding getting two framed by it if you have a hitbox recovery.
• Usmash charging hitbox also hits every 6 frames instead of 4.

Olimar

• All of Olimar's Smash attacks now correctly have their damage increased with charge.

Roy

• Ledge attack now deals 11 hitlag from 12. Shieldlag is unchanged at 8.

Ryu/Ken

• Ledge attack now deals 13 hitlag from 15. Shieldlag now 9 from 12

Samus/Dark Samus

• Unlisted Change: Neutral B shieldlag now 9-24 from 9-17

Sheik

• Rapid Jab finisher total frames now 35 from 41.
• Neutral B: Reaching full charge with Needles takes 86 frames from 101.

Snake

• Usmash total frames now 54 from 50

Wario

• Neutral B: Animation for Eating a projectile takes 25 frames from 35. Animation for eating a bike unchanged.

I don't know if it's not labbed yet, but what about Zelda's "nerf"?
It really isn't one in a regular match, but it would be nice to see the data.

 

[Wunderwaft]

The patch changes were certainly unexpected, I'm intrigued in how the meta will change with these universal shield changes. Also about Wario's bite change, Samus' charge shot was harder to eat before and the shot hit me half of the time but now I can eat it just fine, It seems that they extended the hitbox for the bite and made the move safer to use.

 

[Coolboy]

what do they mean with ''penalizing'' for dodging to much? cause i use dodge alot..so what's the difference now exactly?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Not sure what they mean specifically about power against shields, but just to be safe I will collect block stats for those moves. Okay here's the patch 2.02 values for some of these changes. All damage values given are base damage. When comparing, make sure there are 2 CPUs in Training Mode. And when I say "total frames" I do mean the duration of the move. In other words, FAF minus 1.

Spoiler: Pre-patch values

Global change: Endlag on Perfect shield. Just going to take note of some examples

• When perfect shielding Samus' full charged shot (28.0% damage), Mario was stuck for 27 total frames before he could move. 19 of those frames appear to be the Perfect shield's version of "shieldlag" since Mario is not moving
• When perfect shielding Link's uncharged arrow (4.0% damage), Mario was stuck for 9 total frames before he could move. 7 of those frames appear to be the perfect shield's version of "shieldlag" since mario is not moving

Bayonetta

• Neutral Special uncharged deals 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. Charged version deals 7 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Bowser Jr

• Jab 2 delivers 10 frames of hitstun on Mario at 0% with the closer hitbox, and 8 frames of hitstun with the farther hitbox

Cloud

• Neutral B deals 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun up close, 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun far away. Air version deals 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun up close, 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun far away

Corrin

• U-Smash hitbox is active on frames 13-15
• Side Special has a 15 frame waiting period (counting the frame the pin touches the ground) before Corrin can perform any of the four options.
• Up Special is invulnerable to attacks on frame 10-17
• Neutral Special uncharged projectile lasts from frame 17-62 and travels about 40-45% the length of battlefield

Dark Pit

• Neutral B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge

Diddy Kong

• F-Tilt is active on frames 10-13
• U-Air deals 6.0% damage
• Dash Attack hits on frames 9, 18, and 24. Move is 42 total frames.

Dr. Mario

• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. This does not change with the projectile's late hit.

Duck Hunt

• Neutral B delivers 9 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun. Minus 1 shieldlag if you only count the explosion and not the can making contact
• Side B delivers 9 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. On activation the multiple shots deliver 7 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun, and the final shot deliver 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Greninja

• Partial Charged Neutral B delivers 5-8 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on level of charge
  • Full charge delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on its multihits, 11 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on its final hit.

Isabelle

• F-air's 7.0% hitbox delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 4.0% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 2.5% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun
• B-air's 9,0% hitbocs delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 5.0% hitbox is 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 3.0% hitbox is 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Ivysaur

• Side B's 8.0% hitbox delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 6.0% hitbox delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun. The 4.0% hitbox delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

King Dedede

• Gordos deliver 8-12 shieldlag and 4-5 shieldlag depending on how long they've been active.

King K Rool

• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun when going out. When returning it delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Down B is 67 total frames when you fail. When successful, it is 46 total frames on the counterattack (not counting counter freeze frames), and 47 total frames on the reflect. Though depending on what you count as part of the animation, both are 47 total frames.
• U-Air is 81 total frames. 13 landing lag

Kirby

• Usmash late hit (which is a 13.0% / 12.0% hitbox depending on proximity) begins on frame 14, when the move is hitting directly above Kirby. Check if a target on a platform above him is still receiving those damage values.
• Dthrow deals 0.8 damage on the first nine hits. The tenth deals 1.0. The eleventh deals 2.0. Total damage is 10.2%
• Up B grabs ledges beginning on frame 36 in front of him. He won't grab ledges behind him.
• N-air is 62 total frames
  • N-air's autocancels on frames 1-4 and 56 onward

Link

• Side B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shiedlstun depending on tilt or smash input and whether it's a late hit
  • When the boomerang is returning it delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Lucario

• Neutral B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shieldstun at 0% aura depending on charge
  • At max aura, it delivers 8-15 shieldlag and 4-8 shieldstun depending on charge

Luigi

• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun regardless of early or late hit.

Mario

• Neutral B delivers 6 shiedlag and 3 shieldstun on early hit. 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on late hit.

Mega Man

• Down B hits every 11 frames whether it's still on Mega Man or has been thrown.
• Down B's initial use is 34 total frames. The throw is 53 total frames
• Buster shots deliver 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. But the cannon delivers 4 shieldstun and 3 shieldlag when on the ground
• Neutral B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun.

Mewtwo

• Ledge dodge is invulnerable on frames 1-23
• Neutral B delivers 5-14 shieldlag and 2-7 shieldstun depending on charge.
• F-Tilt deals 10.0, 9.0 and 8.0 damage depending on how close you are.
• U-Air deals 11.0, 10.0, and 9.0 damage depending on how close you are.
• U-Tilt deals 6.0, 5.0, 4.5, 4.0, and 3,0 damage depending on how close you are and whether it's an early or late hit.
• Jab 1 is 6 startup with 22 total frames. The multijab is 5 startup and hits every three frames. The finisher is 6 startup with 40 total frames.

Mii Gunner

• Down B 2 (Bomb Drop) deals 17 shieldlag counting both the contact and explosion hitboxes(they are a blockstring, but four of those frames are technically shieldstun), and 4 shieldstun on the explosion
• Neutral B 1 deals 8-17 shieldlag and 2-8 shiedlstun depending on level of charge
• Neutral B 3's multihit delivers 4 shieldlag. The final hit delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Side B 1 delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun and doesn't erupt on shields.
• Side B 3 homing missile delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
  • Super missile delivers 10 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun

Mii Swordfighter

• Neutral B 1 delivers 9 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun on 13.0% hitbox. 8 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on the 11.0 and 10.0 hitboxes
• Neutral B 2 delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the 2.0% hitbox, 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the 3.5% hitbox. 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the 5.0 and 6.5 hitnoxxes
• Side B 3 delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the strong throw
  • The weak throw delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun and bounces off shields rather than continuing to hit the target.

Ness

• DSmash charging hold is frame 12, same frame where the charging hitbox appears. That hitbox will hit the same target once every 4 frames until Ness releases the move.
• USmash charging hold is frame 10, same frame where the charging hitbox appears. That hitbox will hit the same target once every 4 frames until Ness releases the move.

Olimar

• Side B Pikmin do not cause damage or shieldlag/stun to a blocking target unless it's a purple. However, when the other types of pikmin do have 5 shieldlag before they bounce off.
  • Side B Purple Pikmin delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• F-Smash is...look just use my chart, I'm not writing all of that out.
  • It's true that Fsmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed.
• It's true that Dsmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed
• It's true that Usmash does not increase in damage when charged, so hopefully this is fixed.

Pac-Man

• Down B delivers 7 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on the initial spawn.
  • the Hydrant delivers 9 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun when launched by an attack
• Neutral B delivers the amount of shieldlag and shieldstun I have written out in the chart

Palutena

• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on each shot.
• Side B delivers 4 shieldlag on the multihit and unknown shieldstun because it's a blockstring. Final hit delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Peach/Daisy

• Vegetables deliver 7-15 shieldlag and 3-8 shieldstun depending on Veggie type and how it is thrown and current item velocity.
  • When Z-Dropped, it delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun assuming it has picked up no velocity.\

Pichu

• Neutral B delivers 12 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun on a direct hit. An arcing hit will deliver 10-9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun depending on how far it has traveled.

Pikachu

• Neutral B delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on a direct hit and on early arcing hit. On the latest arcing hit (4.0% damage) it delivers 8 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Pit

• Neutral B delivers 5-7 shieldlag and 2-3 shieldstun depending on charge.

R.O.B.

• Down B delivers 5-8 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on level of charge and whether the gyro is just spinning in place on the ground.
• Neutral B projectile delivers 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun at partial charge. At full charge it delivers 13 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun

Ridley

• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun at any level of charge

Robin

• Side B deals 6 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on the initial hit
  • Pillar multihit is 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun. Final hit is 11 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun
• Thunder deals 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun
• Elthunder deals 13 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun
• Archtunder is a blockstring until the final hit which is 11 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Rosalina & Luma

• Neutral B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge.
• Side B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun on each hit.

Roy

• Ledge attack delivers 12 frames of hitlag and 8 frames of shieldlag

Ryu/Ken

• Ledge attack delivers 15 frames of hitlag and 12 frames of shieldlag

Samus/Dark Samus

• Neutral special delivers 9-17 shieldlag and 3-8 shieldstun depending on charge

Sheik

• Rapid Jab finisher is 41 total frames
• Neutral B takes 101 frames to reach full charge.

Simon/Richter

• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on the tilt input. A smash input delivers the same amount.
  • A returning hit delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun regardless of strength of the throw

Snake

• Usmash is 50 total frames
• Neutral B delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun when touching a shield
  • Explosion delivers 8 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun

Toon Link

• Side B delivers 6-8 shieldlag and 3-4 shieldstun depending on smash/tilt input and whether it's a late hit
  • A returning hit delivers 5 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Villager

• F-air delivers 7/5/5 shieldlag and 3/3/2 shieldstun depending on a 7.0/4.0/2.5 damage hit.
• B-air delivers 7/6/5 shieldlag and 4/3/2 shieldstun depending on a 9.0/5.0/3.0 damage hit.
• Side B delivers 7 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun on an early hit. A late hit is 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Wario

• Neutral B eats projectiles as early as frame 9 (weird since it grabs as early as frame 8)
  • But he eats his bike as early as frame 2.
  • The eat animation for projectiles is 35 total frames. But when eating his bike it's 55 total frames

Wii Fit Trainer

• Neutral B delivers 6-13 shieldlag and 3-6 shieldstun depending on charge.
• Side B projectile delivers 8 sheildlag and 4 shieldstun
• Down B effect lasts for just under ten seconds when fresh

Wolf

• Neutral B projectile delivers 9 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Yoshi

• Up B delivers 6 shieldlag and 3 shieldstun

Young Link

• Neutral B delivers 5-9 shieldlag and 2-4 shieldstun depending on charge
• Side B delivers 7-9 shieldlag and 3-5 shielstun depending on tilt/smash input and whether it's a late hit
  • The returning hit delivers 4 shieldlag and 2 shieldstun

Zelda

• Down B delivers 6-10 shieldlag and 3-5 shieldstun depending on charge.

So these are prepatch projectile values are you looking into the post patch ones? Also I understand what shieldstun is the time your stuck in shield without being able to take any action but what is shieldlag in terms of projectiles?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

What a weird example. Well I guess female WFT can be a bit distracting. In addition if she gets banned then people can still use male WFT so this would solve the sexiness problem without removing WFT.

Though personally I think that people should just learn to control themselves and focus on the fight at hand even if they face female WFT.

Err..... That isn't exactly outrage culture either. It isn't about how player can get distracted by good looking characters, but rather how people are upset about a specific thing in the game that would offend (or potentially offend) people.

It is like that recent Taiwan horror game, Devotion I think it is called, that has something about how someone higher up in china looks like Winnie the Pooh. People got very offended and attacked the game, and the dev had to apologize and remove the game from Steam.