Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Splebel]

Don't approach, literally don't approach. If Robin wants to play the charge game your projectiles are better than his at dealing damage AND at killing AND are significantly harder to avoid. You do have to watch out for his powerful aerials and combo's but the truth of the matter is that so long as you don't get careless you can negate any projectile he has by jumping and dropping stuff on him.

Also if you're feeling cheeky hydrant water WILL kill him if he doesn't sweet spot the ledge.

Thanks I was thinking it was something like that.

 

[link7]

I posted a vid. that showcased an online tourney. Here's an offline one.

 

[fromundaman]

So quick question:

How do we get the Fair>Key confirm to be consistent? I seem to get it like 40% of the time, but it feels like near the ground a tech can catch the key, and otherwise I am having trouble judging when I need to double jump key or just throw key right away. Is this truly guaranteed and I am doing it wrong, or is this dependent on whether the opponent DIs up or down?

 

[BSP]

I posted a vid. that showcased an online tourney. Here's an offline one.

That could've been even worse if the Link player realized that he could neutralize 90% of Pac-Man's pressure by just looking at him.

 

[Nu~]

That could've been even worse if the Link player realized that he could neutralize 90% of Pac-Man's pressure by just looking at him.

Even better if the pacman player realized that 100% of link's pressure loses to side B and hydrant¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Link can only block cherry, strawberry, Apple, and melon with his shield. Galaxian, orange, and key keep going while bell flies over it. And all of the aforementioned fruit that link can block can be sh tossed to go over the shield. Link can't relive pressure by standing still unless that pacman player is just throwing fruit like a mindless tool.

 

[Froggy]

I defeated the number 1 link player in New England comfortably enough that he switched off him after the first match. I don't think its a bad matchup for Pacman.

 

[fromundaman]

I don't think Link is all that bad. Yes he can nullify projectiles by looking at them, but he can't nullify our normals by doing this, meaning that shielding aerial approaches is still better, otherwise he leaves himself open to 50/50s heavily in our favor. If he wants to camp us out by sitting still, all he's doing is giving us time to set up.

Link does have some annoying tools, but I don't think the shield is one of them. TBH his jabs, Ftilt, Utilt and the windbox on his boomerangs, as well as bombs in general, are more problematic IMO.

I posted a vid. that showcased an online tourney. Here's an offline one.

Been a while since I've done a critique; let's go!

Here are a few major things I noticed throughout the matches (I am assuming you are the Pacman player, but if you're not, pass this on to him/her):

-The ONLY defensive option you did in 2 matches combined was airdodge, and even then barely ever. I like being aggressive, maybe even to a fault, but you can't completely neglect your defense like that, especially against a character like Link who is punishable on a lot of his normals.

-You fish WAAAAAY too hard for setups. Setups are really good and integral to Pacman, but you need to get used to using them and make them a natural part of your gameplay. You can't ignore everything else to get a setup or you will die. You have to learn the situations in which our variety of setups work then utilize them at those times. Trying to force the setups is a good way to have them backfire (Which you saw a lot).

-Fruit usage: Every single time you charged a fruit below bell, you almost instantly threw it. Every time you had bell, you waited to be behind the hydrant and throw it through or around the hydrant. This made your fruit tosses super predictable. You also never used Galaga or Key for some reason.
I also want to add that there is no point in charging to bell when the opponent is at 0% as the stun is too short at that point to get anything off of it. It is the worst fruit at low percents despite being the best one at mid/high percents.

-Hydrant: Your hydrant usage may be the biggest problem you have atm. Your hydrant worked against you more than it did for you a vast majority of the time. Important things to keep in mind:
*Not every hydrant needs to be launched. It is more than just a projectile; it can also be used to extend hitboxes, as a wall, as a bait, to change hitboxes, to extend invulnerability frames for reasons I don't completely understand, to cover landings, and of course as a projectile. Utilize all of it's uses instead of limiting yourself to just one.
*If you DO launch the hydrant, you don't need to always launch it the same way. Delayed launches are incredible, as are slow launches. Faster launches are good, but serve no purpose if they fly past your opponent. You need to force your opponent to react in some way to your hydrants.
*Be aware of roughly how much damage moves do so that you don't end up getting your hydrant knocked back at you. There are multiple occasions where you hit the hydrant with a strong move like a Bair, then run back towards it as a boomerang, bomb or arrow is on the verge of launching it.
*Be aware of when you do and don't have Hydrant available. You tried WAAAAAY too many times to drop hydrant at times when it was not back yet, leaving you open for punishes.
*The SideB hydrant launch trick is neat, but it is also REALLY easy to counter. I would not use that more than once a set, if even that often. Definitely don't rely on it. It can be a decent mixup, but that's about it.

-Never use SideB in the neutral unless you have absolute confidence in the hardest read of your smash career.


With this stuff in mind, rewatch your match. Catch all of the things you did wrong, and work on fixing them for next time. Also work on catching this stuff mid-match so that you can adapt to it and stop getting hit by the same things over and over.


Hope that helps!

Also @dragontamer maybe move this to the video thread?

 

[link7]

I don't think Link is all that bad. Yes he can nullify projectiles by looking at them, but he can't nullify our normals by doing this, meaning that shielding aerial approaches is still better, otherwise he leaves himself open to 50/50s heavily in our favor. If he wants to camp us out by sitting still, all he's doing is giving us time to set up.

Link does have some annoying tools, but I don't think the shield is one of them. TBH his jabs, Ftilt, Utilt and the windbox on his boomerangs, as well as bombs in general, are more problematic IMO.




Been a while since I've done a critique; let's go!

Here are a few major things I noticed throughout the matches (I am assuming you are the Pacman player, but if you're not, pass this on to him/her):

-The ONLY defensive option you did in 2 matches combined was airdodge, and even then barely ever. I like being aggressive, maybe even to a fault, but you can't completely neglect your defense like that, especially against a character like Link who is punishable on a lot of his normals.

-You fish WAAAAAY too hard for setups. Setups are really good and integral to Pacman, but you need to get used to using them and make them a natural part of your gameplay. You can't ignore everything else to get a setup or you will die. You have to learn the situations in which our variety of setups work then utilize them at those times. Trying to force the setups is a good way to have them backfire (Which you saw a lot).

-Fruit usage: Every single time you charged a fruit below bell, you almost instantly threw it. Every time you had bell, you waited to be behind the hydrant and throw it through or around the hydrant. This made your fruit tosses super predictable. You also never used Galaga or Key for some reason.
I also want to add that there is no point in charging to bell when the opponent is at 0% as the stun is too short at that point to get anything off of it. It is the worst fruit at low percents despite being the best one at mid/high percents.

-Hydrant: Your hydrant usage may be the biggest problem you have atm. Your hydrant worked against you more than it did for you a vast majority of the time. Important things to keep in mind:
*Not every hydrant needs to be launched. It is more than just a projectile; it can also be used to extend hitboxes, as a wall, as a bait, to change hitboxes, to extend invulnerability frames for reasons I don't completely understand, to cover landings, and of course as a projectile. Utilize all of it's uses instead of limiting yourself to just one.
*If you DO launch the hydrant, you don't need to always launch it the same way. Delayed launches are incredible, as are slow launches. Faster launches are good, but serve no purpose if they fly past your opponent. You need to force your opponent to react in some way to your hydrants.
*Be aware of roughly how much damage moves do so that you don't end up getting your hydrant knocked back at you. There are multiple occasions where you hit the hydrant with a strong move like a Bair, then run back towards it as a boomerang, bomb or arrow is on the verge of launching it.
*Be aware of when you do and don't have Hydrant available. You tried WAAAAAY too many times to drop hydrant at times when it was not back yet, leaving you open for punishes.
*The SideB hydrant launch trick is neat, but it is also REALLY easy to counter. I would not use that more than once a set, if even that often. Definitely don't rely on it. It can be a decent mixup, but that's about it.

-Never use SideB in the neutral unless you have absolute confidence in the hardest read of your smash career.


With this stuff in mind, rewatch your match. Catch all of the things you did wrong, and work on fixing them for next time. Also work on catching this stuff mid-match so that you can adapt to it and stop getting hit by the same things over and over.


Hope that helps!

Also @dragontamer maybe move this to the video thread?

Neither of those players are me.

 

[fromundaman]

Neither of those players are me.

Oh damn... Any way to get that critique to the guy? I don't want to have typed all of that out for nothing XD

 

[link7]

Speak to the Link player Dumbfire. He might know.

 

[Splebel]

fromundaman I would disagree on both your bell and side B usage comments because while the stun from is terrible at a low percent, bell is good at covering air approaches at any percentages as well as being a good mix-up for recovery since it goes through the stage. Also it can be an interesting ledge guard. Side B in neutral I would only recommend if you do it and end offstage to not get punished but otherwise yeah don't do that. However this guy didn't do any of that so meh.

 

[Norkas]

Has anyone advice for the greninja matchup. I think greninja is a one of our harder matchups, onstage I think we are in a rather acceptable position, because greninja has few options to approach when our trampoline is out. Recovering is a pain though if I am in a bad position to side b sweetspot the ledge. Trampoline needs to be used under the stage to avoid beeing down-air stunlocked and forced to freefall to death. Recovering high usually requires my second jump otherwise it's too easy to punish side b or up b. All of this seems to require a safe playstyle, but playing safe sometimes requires to give up stagecontrol and I end up closer to the ledge. I really could use some advice to play this matchup more consistently.

 

[Splebel]

Has anyone advice for the greninja matchup. I think greninja is a one of our harder matchups, onstage I think we are in a rather acceptable position, because greninja has few options to approach when our trampoline is out. Recovering is a pain though if I am in a bad position to side b sweetspot the ledge. Trampoline needs to be used under the stage to avoid beeing down-air stunlocked and forced to freefall to death. Recovering high usually requires my second jump otherwise it's too easy to punish side b or up b. All of this seems to require a safe playstyle, but playing safe sometimes requires to give up stagecontrol and I end up closer to the ledge. I really could use some advice to play this matchup more consistently.

Onstage: orange if he decides to shadow sneak real far and you can punish. Hydrant will block shurikens except for the big ones.

Offstage: I would airdodge his down air if possible. If he tries it while you can still recover I would air dodge it. Be careful recovering high because greninja can hydro pump you away if you aren't careful.

Other notes: His counter can go in any direction and it goes extremely far. I lost to a Greninja because I dropped a hydrant or something and he countered up and killed me. So be prepared to shield / airdodge anywhere you are. I also would shield when he disappears for shadow sneak because the range is deceptive. Greninja can also wall cling then jump up with an upair to get a large distance. I would not try to challenge that unless you find a way but I tend to lose to it.

Edit: Also this works better with slower characters but going real far in one direction and then turning around in the air while trampolining tends to throw opponents off it you change directions closer to the ground.

 

[Nu~]

Has anyone advice for the greninja matchup. I think greninja is a one of our harder matchups, onstage I think we are in a rather acceptable position, because greninja has few options to approach when our trampoline is out. Recovering is a pain though if I am in a bad position to side b sweetspot the ledge. Trampoline needs to be used under the stage to avoid beeing down-air stunlocked and forced to freefall to death. Recovering high usually requires my second jump otherwise it's too easy to punish side b or up b. All of this seems to require a safe playstyle, but playing safe sometimes requires to give up stagecontrol and I end up closer to the ledge. I really could use some advice to play this matchup more consistently.

Offstage, you can always use bonus fruit charging to extend your jump while the fruit blocks greninja's dair for you.

Onstage, Greninja has a little bit of an upper hand since he has the speed to get in, but our zoning tools are still useful and we can challenge him with bair whenever he approaches from the air due to his slower frame data.

Sinji what do you do against ninjalink?

 

[Sinji]

Offstage, you can always use bonus fruit charging to extend your jump while the fruit blocks greninja's dair for you.

Onstage, Greninja has a little bit of an upper hand since he has the speed to get in, but our zoning tools are still useful and we can challenge him with bair whenever he approaches from the air due to his slower frame data.

Sinji what do you do against ninjalink?

Short hop air dodge into nair works well against Greninja the player neutral b too much. Dash attack into up b is safe against him. Don't be afraid to shield and wait for Greninja to make a move. Greninja has a slow grab. Fair is faster then his nair approach. When you place a hydrant, The Greninja likes to go for dair repeatedly until the hydrant is flying. When he hits it once, throw the galaxion and he will get hit by both the hydrant and the galaxion. Greninja can edge guard us well. Recovering below is the best way to get back. Cherry edge guard works on greninja. If they recover high, read their landing and upsmash. nair out of shield against his nair. go for the key in this match up mostly. If he knocks the hydrant with fair, throw the key to punish him.

 

[meleebrawler]

Short hop air dodge into nair works well against Greninja the player neutral b too much. Dash attack into up b is safe against him. Don't be afraid to shield and wait for Greninja to make a move. Greninja has a slow grab. Fair is faster then his nair approach. When you place a hydrant, The Greninja likes to go for dair repeatedly until the hydrant is flying. When he hits it once, throw the galaxion and he will get hit by both the hydrant and the galaxion. Greninja can edge guard us well. Recovering below is the best way to get back. Cherry edge guard works on greninja. If they recover high, read their landing and upsmash. nair out of shield against his nair. go for the key in this match up mostly. If he knocks the hydrant with fair, throw the key to punish him.

Greninja dash grab isn't slow at all, so don't just shield. Slow standing grab means you can hit his shield with a bit of confidence, if they don't just use their mobility to dodge.

 

[Sinji]

Greninja dash grab isn't slow at all, so don't just shield. Slow standing grab means you can hit his shield with a bit of confidence, if they don't just use their mobility to dodge.

A Frame 9 grab compared to other grabs is pretty slow in my book

 

[Sinji]

Just got home from Wes place. Played a lot of friendlies against his Samus Sonic and Megaman (Especially Samus). He's going to send me the replays and I'll upload them. I'll give my overview on the Samus match up.

 

[Froggy]

So idk if this is common knowledge but after down throw dash attack is a true combo on some characters at certain percents(it works better on fast fallers) often times the floatier characters will just jumpout of it but I realized today can totally just uair them when they do this. Its not a free escape at all.

I meant to post this in the advance techniques thread but oh well

 

[verbatim]

Just got home from Wes place. Played a lot of friendlies against his Samus Sonic and Megaman (Especially Samus). He's going to send me the replays and I'll upload them. I'll give my overview on the Samus match up.

Could you or someone else talk about the Sonic one if you get the chance. All I really know is "use trampoline a lot" and don't get back aired.

 

[Froggy]

Could you or someone else talk about the Sonic one if you get the chance. All I really know is "use trampoline a lot" and don't get back aired.

Its a matchup where I keep going back on fourth on. The last 4 times I've had Sonic in tourney I've alternated between cleanly beating them and getting cleanly beat. Its a super tricky, very kinetic matchup.

edit: I recently had a friendly where I beat who I'm pretty sure is 6WX. I'll upload it when I find the time.

 

[Sinji]

So today Jtails decided to go shiek against me and timed me out on FD. I got camped on Town and City as well. I'm starting to think I should play on BattleField or Dreamland. What are your opinion Shiek camping in general? Do you play on small stages or do you play on big ones?

 

[Nu~]

So today Jtails decided to go shiek against me and timed me out on FD. I got camped on Town and City as well. I'm starting to think I should play on BattleField or Dreamland. What are your opinion Shiek camping in general? Do you play on small stages or do you play on big ones?

Play on dreamland or battlefield. Harder to needle camp you on a small stage with platforms. Get the percent lead and drop a hydrant. She now has to come through the platforms over to you or she gives you free charges and free hydrant launches if she shoots needles.

But then, she may circle camp if she takes your fruit...

 

[Sinji]

Play on dreamland or battlefield. Harder to needle camp you on a small stage with platforms. Get the percent lead and drop a hydrant. She now has to come through the platforms over to you or she gives you free charges and free hydrant launches if she shoots needles.

But then, she may circle camp if she takes your fruit...

Agreed. Battle Field and Dreamland it is. I guess I should do the same against Rosalina since I can get in her space better. I think it's best to play high/mod tier characters that uses projectiles like Wii Fit Trainer or Megaman on FD and top tier characters (except fox) on battlefield/dreamland.

Edit: Since I'm still online, I guess I should talk about the Wii Fit Trainer match up. Wii Fit and Pac-Man like the same stages so me and John Numbers always go to FD. To the spectators, its a boring match up to watch lol because Wii Fit is shooting Sun Salutation while Pac-Man shoots out the key and the hydrant. Reason why we have to stay consistent with the key and the hydrant is because Wii Fit's Animation of Salute the Sun leaves her open for the hydrant hit, it's easy to shield poke since she is a tall character, she can't grab our key since it fly's very fast and has a lot of shield stun and it also beats her Volley Ball. Up B in her space so she can't grab us. Side B the Sun Salutation for 2%. She gets 2% as well from shooting Sun Salutation. Don't get grabbed. Getting grabbed and thrown off stage can give her a Volley Ball spike opportunity or Down Air Spike. Her up air can kill early, (especially with deep breathing) so only go above her when you know you can throw a hydrant down at her. After getting a shield poke or draining her shield with the key + Hydrant and she's at high percent, go for an Apple kill. Her head will be exposed. You can't challenge her up close really. This match up is a rinse and repeat match up that's usually on FD.

 

[Sinji]

Zage What stages do you ban against Luigi?

 

[fromundaman]

Agreed. Battle Field and Dreamland it is. I guess I should do the same against Rosalina since I can get in her space better. I think it's best to play high/mod tier characters that uses projectiles like Wii Fit Trainer or Megaman on FD and top tier characters (except fox) on battlefield/dreamland.

Edit: Since I'm still online, I guess I should talk about the Wii Fit Trainer match up. Wii Fit and Pac-Man like the same stages so me and John Numbers always go to FD. To the spectators, its a boring match up to watch lol because Wii Fit is shooting Sun Salutation while Pac-Man shoots out the key and the hydrant. Reason why we have to stay consistent with the key and the hydrant is because Wii Fit's Animation of Salute the Sun leaves her open for the hydrant hit, it's easy to shield poke since she is a tall character, she can't grab our key since it fly's very fast and has a lot of shield stun and it also beats her Volley Ball. Up B in her space so she can't grab us. Side B the Sun Salutation for 2%. She gets 2% as well from shooting Sun Salutation. Don't get grabbed. Getting grabbed and thrown off stage can give her a Volley Ball spike opportunity or Down Air Spike. Her up air can kill early, (especially with deep breathing) so only go above her when you know you can throw a hydrant down at her. After getting a shield poke or draining her shield with the key + Hydrant and she's at high percent, go for an Apple kill. Her head will be exposed. You can't challenge her up close really. This match up is a rinse and repeat match up that's usually on FD.

Weird... My MU with our local Wii Fit is very different. That said I don't know if that's just a difference in playstyle (Pretty sure Hive and I play differently from you and Numbers) or a difference in skill (Pretty sure you both are better than the two of us as well). In any case that is interesting.

 

[Zage]

Zage What stages do you ban against Luigi?

I'd probably opt for the Lylat/Battlefield ban or any stage with static platforms. They give Luigi alternate routes around the hydrant, and the platforms put it at the perfect SH double aerial height for him. Because of Luigi's low traction/slow air speed, the hydrant alone can keep him out, so stages like FD where he's forced to deal with it are ideal IMO.

 

[Sinji]

Weird... My MU with our local Wii Fit is very different. That said I don't know if that's just a difference in playstyle (Pretty sure Hive and I play differently from you and Numbers) or a difference in skill (Pretty sure you both are better than the two of us as well). In any case that is interesting.

Yea, both characters have crazy defensive options that can set up for a kill so its better to approach 50% of the time.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Do you guys have any tips against Ike? One of my good friends plays him and I'm stumped tbh. We can't jump around him his sword is huge, trampoline works but low percentages it's really hard to use properly, Ike's counter autolaunches the hydrant, and what if the Ike is really good against catching items.

What do?

 

[Splebel]

Do you guys have any tips against Ike? One of my good friends plays him and I'm stumped tbh. We can't jump around him his sword is huge, trampoline works but low percentages it's really hard to use properly, Ike's counter autolaunches the hydrant, and what if the Ike is really good against catching items.

What do?

Against a bad Ike, throw fruit because he will just spam side b and will lose. Against a good Ike that catches fruit I would say first off don't throw fruit out unprotected unless you throw it from your hand. I try to punish fruit catches if they like to catch the fruit. (I usually use slower fruit for that.) I would also give Ike space in neutral because he has range and is powerful. Hiding behind trampoline might work. I'm not sure on Ike's aerial frame data. Ike's edgeguarding game doesn't seem to be anything to watch out for as every attack he has you can see coming. My biggest problem against Ike and some other characters is his dash attack. It covers a lot of range, come out quick and speeds him up, I tend to get hit by this the most. Smart use of shield can be good because he can't insta-break your shield except for eruption but you should feel bad if you sit in shield if he's charging that in front of you. and his grab combos don't seem that bad. Shielding and then punishing I would say would be effective against him if you don't overdo it.

 

[Froggy]

Use Galaxian at lower percents coupled with the hydrant(he is combo food) hide behind the trampoline in neutral, your bair will beat his aerials if you are careful. Don’t concede space to him too easy so you’re avoiding being cornered at the ledge. You can run into him and trampoline to get behind him, or drop a hydrant. Run behind the hydrant and he’ll likely launch it with f-tilt, if you’re ready for it that’s punishable by dash attack and fair(it’s also punishable with grab but hardly worth the risk against Ike) but also mix up between dropping off the hydrant and nairing him or trampolining him. Use bell at higher percents to f or u smash so he is not living till 140 all the time.

I know it’s difficult but try not to be intimidated against Ike. All of his super hard hitting moves are telegraphed and he won’t really be using them until he is ready to kill. You’ll find that for most of the match he is racking up damage with grabs and jabs. And that just isn’t so scary when you think about it

 

[Froggy]

So I'm starting to think FD may not be such a terrible stage for us in most matchups. The thing to keep in mind is that the stages forces you to engage instead of running away from your opponent charging your fruit an intercepting the attacker during the case. There isn't much place to run so you kinda have to plant your feet, build a zone, and keep your opponent out of it. Which is something Pacman is entirely capable of. Of course Pacman's zone is always dynamic, moving around as the matchup calls for it.

Smashville is still God awful in most cases though

 

[Splebel]

This will sound pessimistic because it is but I'm going to speculate right now and say Cloud will probably be a tough matchup for Pac-Man (assuming no buffs/nerfs for Pac-Man). He seems like he has the range of Shulk + that energy slash so actually it would be even more and I wouldn't be surprised if it pierced. He looks like he hits pretty hard, his neutral air has huge range and that limit break would make things even harder.

 

[verbatim]

That's a pretty early conclusion to jump to about a character trailer BEFORE a balance patch.

 

[Splebel]

To be fair, I did say I was assuming Pac-Man stays the same. Also Cloud didn't really move in that trailer so for all I know he could be as slow as Ganondorf with terrible frame data and not be as big a threat as I am thinking right now. Also I'm assuming no game engine changes like the shield stun change.

 

[Froggy]

This will sound pessimistic because it is but I'm going to speculate right now and say Cloud will probably be a tough matchup for Pac-Man (assuming no buffs/nerfs for Pac-Man). He seems like he has the range of Shulk + that energy slash so actually it would be even more and I wouldn't be surprised if it pierced. He looks like he hits pretty hard, his neutral air has huge range and that limit break would make things even harder.

He seems like he may be a faster ike with a projectile. Could spell real trouble.

 

[verbatim]

lots of if's


Greninja is faster than Sheik in every single mobility category (not counting rolls), is on the upper end of the midweight category, has a frame 3 jab, and is the ONLY character in the entire game who can get out of MK's ladder combo. His nair has a FAF of 65, aka more than a second, fair is 55. His standing and pivot grabs are bad.

Toon Link has a lot of powerful setups out of bombs, one of the best uptilt's in the game, and the THIRD strongest kill back throw. He has a bad grab.

Kirby has 5 jumps, can true combo most of the cast from 0-30, and fox 0-60, can duck under most projectiles. Has a bad approach game and is light.

G&W has guaranteed throw followups until 130%, an upsmash that makes him invincible on FRAME FOUR, can do jab -> grab. Super armor for the entirety of his up b (aka never gimp). He has a bad dash grab and is light.


Dr Mario is a clone of one of the best characters in the entire game with SIGNIFICANTLY moves all around, especially up b (oos), bair, fair, and down b. His aerial mobility and recovery are subpar.

Averaging moves together, Ganondorf is uncontestidly the strongest character in the game. His up smash ends before Fox's does, and breaks shields in two hits, his weakest A attack does 10 damage, he has true combo's that do 30-40 to certain characters, he has the best command grab in the game, he has the best shieldbreak punish in the game and is one of the best characters at getting shieldbreaks in the game. More than half of his aerial moves beat Ness's PK Thunder 2 hitting himself. He can true combo 20-death Captain Falcon and other fast fallers. He's slow and his grab is bad.

Little Mac has a frame 1 jab, a grounded frame 3 up b combo breaker that kills, super armor on all, of his smash attacks as well as side b and up b, one average he gets one-two near instant kill hit move per match. He runs faster than Sheik and Fox and has better rolls than either of them. He has poor air mobility and recovery.


Everyone one of these characters is either one of or the best in one or multiple categories, and the best of them are mid tier. Even the most minuscule thing can keep otherwise ridiculous characters in line, or bottom tier.

 

[Froggy]

I was plying a Greninja yesterday and it seemed like his shuriken does not affect the hydrant, more than once I baired the hydrant and after it was hit by a shuriken and it did not launch it. I know that some moves like Diddy's peanut does not affect the hydrant, but I am quite positive I have seen a fully charged shuriken break the hydrant. Can anyone explain whats going on?

 

[NimbusSpark]

I was plying a Greninja yesterday and it seemed like his shuriken does not affect the hydrant, more than once I baired the hydrant and after it was hit by a shuriken and it did not launch it. I know that some moves like Diddy's peanut does not affect the hydrant, but I am quite positive I have seen a fully charged shuriken break the hydrant. Can anyone explain whats going on?

I've been encountering a similar problem, but instead it's when I attempt to Jab Launch a hydrant after B-Airing it.
Personally, I'm just not sure if those moves have gone stale enough for it not to work or some of Sakurai's creations haven't been working as they should.

 

[BSP]

Could you or someone else talk about the Sonic one if you get the chance. All I really know is "use trampoline a lot" and don't get back aired.

I still think Sonic beats us 60:40 if he plays the MU properly, IE pays attention to your fruits and completely ignores the hydrant. If he does those things, you're going to have trouble consistently creating space since he's fast and only trampoline disrupts his ground game. That being said, outside of spin dash combos and his Bair, Sonic's damage per hit isn't that great. Pac-Man is good at avoiding spin dash in general + his bair is slightly faster than Sonic's (don't try to go for trades though). Outside of use trampoline a lot and harass him when you can when he comes from the air, I'm not sure what else to say.