Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Tonetta]

I said I would get the video of myself vs flashy up but honestly I cannot remember what stream we played on. Sorry.

 

[Nu~]

So what matchups do you guys struggle in the most?

This may be a better question than just handing out matchup list opinions. By talking together about who we feel are our personal worst matchups, we can help each other develop our matchup knowledge and possibly change minds.

While I don't feel that we lose anything harder than 40:60, I personally struggle the most against ryu. It's probably because I'm not very experienced in the matchup, and am not used to having to play that defensive.

You have to play even more defensive against him than luigi and it pains me. I think that @fromundaman also had the same problem.

 

[BSP]

It's Peach for me right now. When I fight against her, it's like I'm fighting Luigi...except I can't keep her out reliably. Trampoline does next to nothing to hinder her game, and most of her moveset will smack hydrant right back in our face very quickly. This leaves us very little time to charge anything before she's right back in our face.

Contesting her in air combat is dangerous because although we have a slight startup advantage, she has a large power advantage (her fair is beyond dumb...). Our SH game is not quick enough to apply continuous that she feels she needs to respect. I'm not sure of what to do. I'm seriously considering pulling out my 2 week old Luigi next time I run into Peach in tournament because he performed significantly better than my Pac-Man did in the MU. The last time Abadango faced Umeki in tournament, he did much better with his significantly younger MK than Pac-Man too.

I know Zage thinks we win, but I'm not seeing it.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I'm having problems with Mario & Link. I don't know how to play against those characters

 

[Nu~]

I'm having problems with Mario & Link. I don't know how to play against those characters

Mario:

I disagree with the last part because it is the perfect counter to what you said about how Mario wants to play and his CQC.

If you spam trampoline and force Mario to approach from the air, two things happen

1) His grounded CQC and grab game become null and void. This is important because grabs are how he usually begins his silliness. If you so choose, Mario will rarely grab you in this MU because he's not fast enough to punish full retreating trampolines, assuming he's on the other side of the trampoline when you start it. You might eat a fireball, but no ridiculous combo.

Shutting down his ground game is important too because his frame 2 jab, Dsmash, Usmash, and whatnot are all very annoying to deal with. You don't have to deal with these if you keep him in the air though.

2) If Mario wants to approach us, which is in his best interest, with a trampoline out, he's coming from the air. I firmly believe we have the advantage when he's approaching from the air. Mario has very poor range along with poor approach options when he's facing you. If he's facing you when he jumps in, poke him with Fair and continue doing that until he tries something else. When he jumps in with his back to you, we can contest with our own Bair, winning trades, Uair or Usmash if he doesn't short hop, or stay grounded and contest him with Utilt, pivot Fsmash, up angled Ftilt, Usmash OoS, Trampoline OoS his landing, Nair OoS, Dtilt his landing, Bell if we have one, etc. His best and only decent method to avoid getting screwed over by us OoS is to space Bair well, and if you're behind your trampoline, you can roll into to hit him, space Fsmash, or shield and punish him when he bounces.

When he's approaching from the air, he can't block obviously, which is most people's response when they feel threatened by Pac-Man.

Important to note: Mario falling into you while Dair'ing is NOT SAFE. Get good at punishing it or you'll be eating a lot of % unnecessarily.

If Mario doesn't chase you down, feel free set up whatever you want. For Fruit, you need to be smart because cape isn't much of a commitment and reflected fruits hurt. TBH, I prioritize poking Mario on his approach attempts instead of charging fruit / setting up in this MU because cape is such a good tool to get out of most setups. If you have the chance to go for fruit, I would mainly use Key to snipe him out of his jumps and cut through fireballs ; Bell as an anti air and trapper ; mix in the other ones as you see fit, but keep in mind that all of our non-piercing fruits are easily stopped by fireballs.

At high %, retreating to the ledge is very good against Mario. That way, you won't get KO'd by landing into a Usmash. For the getup situation, unless he hard reads whatever option you choose, that's enough time to set up a trampoline safely and be back at neutral.

When you are recovering, I suggest not using air time to charge fruit. If Mario catches you off guard, he can FLUDD you past the blastzone for an easy KO. Instead, drift toward the stage and take your time to recover low. Be ready to tech stage spikes as usual.

Hydrant: I strongly caution against launching hydrant at him with laggy moves because cape isn't that much of a commitment. Mario can't run through hydrants, so I would suggest leaving it as a distraction while you set up another trampoline or charge. Also be careful when dropping them defensively, as his cape will send them back up at you. Definitely abuse Hydrant traps when he is recovering though.

Mario's fireballs: at range, Mario will most likely be spamming these. If you can do so without losing steam, pellet them and heal. Otherwise, poweshield / focus on trying to punish him for throwing the fireballs. They are quite laggy.

Now when Mario gets in, things do go downhill pretty quickly. He has free combos on most of the cast, us included. Anytime you get grabbed or get hit by some stray aerial, you could be taking 20% or worse depending on what he hit you with.

Patience is key in this MU. Do not falter and begin trying to directly contest Mario in CQC. Not only are his moves faster and have less lag than ours in general, but the reward for him landing a hit or grab tends to be much greater than ours for doing the same. Your OoS game needs to be spot on, and don't be ashamed to let the games go to time. Do not play Mario's game.

Don't let wifi discourage you from this MU either. It's much harder to deal with Mario's low cooldown moves when he's got some latency backing him up.



Yeah, I've made this mistake too many times. Get good at trampoline OoS guys, or Mario will get away with dairs for free.




Turnaround fireball is an easy way to get Mario's back turned to you when he's recovering. If he goes low and has his back to us, I don't see us gimping him much. However, he exposes himself to ledge traps when he does this.

You are correct in that if we hit him out of his double jump, he should be dead.

Edit: Never gave a ratio. 50:50; The walls of text discussing what Pac-Man has to do in this MU vs. the 3 lines mentioning how bad things get when Mario gets in should give an idea of how the MU goes. Mario's gameplan is simple: get in a combo Pac-Man or KO him. Pac-Man needs to work on keeping Mario out of his comfort zone.

Link:
His projectile pressure is eliminated as soon as you throw a hydrant down. It can't be broken in one hit by arrows, bombs, or boomerangs and this severely hurts his keep away. You can also pellet shield his projectiles, but it's a little harder to time. This allows us to beat him in long range every time.

Out frame data is also superior and we can easily get in and combo him with galaxian. Trampoline just makes it easier to wall him out in a whim.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Look this, and tell me what I did wrong:

I will appreciate the feedback

 

[link7]

Link:
His projectile pressure is eliminated as soon as you throw a hydrant down. It can't be broken in one hit by arrows, bombs, or boomerangs and this severely hurts his keep away. You can also pellet shield his projectiles, but it's a little harder to time. This allows us to beat him in long range every time.

Out frame data is also superior and we can easily get in and combo him with galaxian. Trampoline just makes it easier to wall him out in a whim.

 

[BSP]

Look this, and tell me what I did wrong:

I will appreciate the feedback

I can't say much about Link, but I do know you need to run away from Mario for the entire match. Mario wants to get in and overwhelm you with his quick frame data and grab combos. You can neutralize this by spamming trampoline and hiding behind your hydrant the entire match, and I do mean the entire match. Mario's overall mobility is pretty average, and he does not have the tools to contest you in a constant mid-long range battle. He's going to try to get close. If you play a 95% keep away game, he struggles to catch you with his best setups and lethal moves. Mario can't really KO people when he's in the air, and he's not fast enough to punish whiffed trampoline with lethal moves consistently. Your only downfall with a keep away game is if Mario is smart enough to use FLUDD to shoot you past ledges for trampolining to them. Very few Mario players think to do this, so you should be fine.

If I were you, I'd go into every match with Mario with the intention of always having a trampoline and hydrant out. The primary win condition isn't to KO Mario: it's to make sure Mario doesn't perform his stupid stuff on you and tack on chip damage in the process when it is safe. Pac-Man is more than capable of stopping him from executing his preferred game plan, and it's our best way to handle the MU IMO.

When you plant your hydrant in the MU, I wouldn't plan on launching it unless Mario primes it for you, AND you're safe from a quick cape attempt. Use it primarily as a distraction, not an offensive tool. Jump / trampoline around and keep whatever fruit is best for the situation stocked. I guarantee you that when Mario is dealing with maneuvering around your stuff, he will leave openings for you to punish. You can contest jump ins over your trampoline / hydrant with Fair, Bair, Usmash, Uair, Fsmash, and Dtilt. When Mario is jumping in, he's going to try to land on top of you. Up B him out of shield and rinse, repeat. When he starts spacing to avoid this (only feasible with Bair), start challenging him with Blinky.

If he launches your hydrants constantly, keep orange / key stocked and punish him for it. If he rolls past them, trampoline him out of it and retreat to the other side. If he runs up to your hydrant and capes, get ready to Fsmash him for it. If he doesn't, the water will cover you.

Nutshell: when you are trampoline and hydrant heavy in the MU, you effectively force Mario to play from the air and significantly disrupt his grounded game. He can't grab you in the air, nor can he KO you well with aerials. Unless he hard calls your trampolines, he shouldn't be punishing your trampoline whiffs with anything lethal either. In the last game, you died because you rolled back and Mario ran up and Usmashed you. Had you trampolined instead, Mario would've had to waste time crossing it (eliminating the run up option entirely btw), and would probably, at best, be able to grab you. With your stage positioning and %, dthrow wouldn't be a great setup nor would Bthrow KO you. You may get thrown offstage, but at high %, a grab from Mario isn't that dangerous unless his back is to the ledge and you're close to it. Honestly, any roll in the match would probably be better off as a trampoline.

Let me do a play by play, because you had portions of the match where your strategy was extremely effective and portions where it wasn't so effective.

Spoiler: Play by Play of the Mario match

At the start of the match, I would run forward and either trampoline or hydrant. It'll help keep Mario off of you, and at worst you'll eat a fireball.

:27 - you have to be careful with your fruit throws. If you would've been behind a hydrant or trampoline, you could wait for Mario to do something, and then punish his action with the item toss. In that situation in particular, had there been a trampoline, you could sit in shield and wait for the cape: Mario wouldn't be able to grab you because of the trampoline.

Your second stock is where you start playing how I would approach the MU.

:59 - you drop the hydrant and fall AWAY from Mario. He immediately smashes it with the wrong smash, but had that been an Fsmash you could probably could've thrown the galaxian to punish him. If he would've Usmashed it, that would give you time to set a trampoline safely.

Right after that, you throw the galaxian preemptively IMO. That Mario seemed bent on launching your hydrant every time. I would've waited for his launch and then punished him. Still, knowing that the galaxian would launch right then is good shield pressure, so i respect the option.

1:18 - you go defensive and confirm a quick 20% off a hydrant drop. Good, because Mario will be trying to chase you a lot.

In the following scuffle, had you mashed trampoline, you would've gotten out of the situation and disrupted whatever Mario was planning. If that wasn't enough, you had the water covering you.

1:23 - you roll. had that been a trampoline toward the left ledge, Mario would've been in the air falling towards you, but he wouldn't be able to get to you quickly enough to hit you. Even if you don't get direct damage, you disrupt his game.

1:28 - look how safe that was. You whiffed completely and didn't get touched. With the trampoline out, you are also completely safe from Mario's ground game.

1:31 - had you been looking for him to bounce into the trampoline, you probably could've fair'd him for it. Regardless, you know what's not happening in this situation? You taking damage, and Mario is above you.

1:34 - 1:39 ; you realize what having the trampoline does for you. It narrows what you have to consider down significantly. You knew for sure that Mario would be coming at you from the air, so you could wait comfortably and react. What would've been even better is if you took that time to plant a hydrant, then hide behind it. Then you have all the cover you need to charge a Key.

1:43 - look at how safe that is. You took a fireball, as opposed to getting grabbed for 20%+ and being above Mario. You see where Mario landed right after this happened? Perfect spacing for Blinky, and he will flat out lose then exchange coming from the air.

1:47 - soooo safe. If you would've been throwing down hydrants during this, you'd be set.

1:57 - when you play smart keep away, opportunities like this will present themselves. Mario can't constantly look out for your key. He's more focused on catching you than you yourself.

2:00 - I would've set a trampoline and charged key behind it. How much damage have you taken in the last 30 seconds? The style is working.

2:08 - look at how Mario fell onto you. When he is doing this, and he will, shield. He can't beat your shield from the air, and you can trampoline OoS for free damage because you KNOW Mario has to be on top of you to pose a significant threat.

2:22 - Once again, he's so focused on catching you that he can't tunnel vision your keys.

After the Key that didn't KO Mario, you start playing less passively and begin looking for the KO. Here's where it starts to go downhill. ~2:50

2:55 - instead of setting a camp and comfortably getting your key, which has been working beautifully so far, you go for a setup. It wasn't bad, but it didn't work out. Now you've got no fruit and no cover.

3:08 - you might be thinking at this, "BSP, he's going to punish these trampolines eventually", and I will agree. The key thing is: What is he going to punish them with? Even if Mario punished you for the whiff right there, the best he could get is Nair (8%). You could tech the fair on hit and punish him. If he grabbed you, you're at 69% with Mario's back away from the ledge. A throw isn't that scary.

3:12 - what you should've done here was throw a hydrant down. The water would cover you on the ground, making it even less likely that Mario will land something significant on you.

3:14 - that wasn't a bad apple, but since your game is less keep away right now, Mario is more focused on you rather than catching you . As such, it's going to be harder to nail him with fruit.

3:16 - do hydrant -> fair to regain aerial control quicker. Then you can Bair the hydrant if it gets instant launched at you.

You end up losing the match. I'm sure you'll also notice that your style shifted from comfortable passiveness when you wanted the KO, and you ended up in a lot more danger because of it. From ~:59 - 2:50, the portion of time where I'd say you were playing the MU well, you dealt 135%, took 58%, and didn't get grabbed a single time. The 58% you took all came from stray hits as well, no big combos. During all of that, you weren't focused on planting hydrants for distractions. You had Mario in the palm of your hand, but you started getting thirsty for that KO.

I might do game 2 in a bit.

 

[Nu~]

Abadango played that matchup so non optimally that it was hilarious.

Like, he did nothing to punish the obvious dair on the hydrant.

Look this, and tell me what I did wrong:

I will appreciate the feedback

You just played a little too recklessly. It seems like your nerves got to you. I saw many mistakes like SH fairs that weren't retreated on shield, charging fruit in his face, placing the hydrant right next to him...

You also seem to have trouble with projectiles in general. I saw too many cases where you held your shield for a substantial amount of time rather than simply power shielding and continuing your game plan.

You should have focused on out-zoning him. Only go in when you have the opening (and preferably with a fruit in hand)

 

[dragontamer]

The only thing that video proves is that online play is hilariously laggy.

Both players are making awful mistakes and have terrible reaction times. If that really is Abadango, the only explanation is lag.

Like, he did nothing to punish the obvious dair on the hydrant.

Abadango is using OOS Nair to punish Link's Dairs, which is horribly suboptimal. Unshield->jab->jab->jab will clear stale moves and actually will do comparable damage. Link's Dair has some wtf landing lag if it doesn't get autocanceled, I'm thinking that the lag in that game was horrid.

 

[link7]

Wasn't trying to prove anything boys. People asked for MU advice on the Link boards, I hunted down the only tourney vid. I knew of between a PacMan and a Link for you guys to watch and take notes on.

 

[Neutricity]

I know a lot about the Pac-Man vs Mega Man match up because I play it with ScAtt. It is not in our favor.
Side-B is your friend. Use it to stop pellets, Forward Smash, and crash bomb but he can through those out to rack up damage like crazy. Mega Man's back-air is also way better then our Pac-air.

You should be fine if your Mega Man doesn't have really really good fundamentals. Getting legde trumped and back-aired just to die at 86% isn't fun.

 

[Nu~]

Meanwhile Sinji plays it with ninjalink and believes we win the matchup, and I play it with Zucco. If you are consistently dying to ledge trumps then you need to learn how to buffer getups. Mega man loses nuetral because our projectiles > his and we can wall him out really well.

No one fights mega man with his back turned for a reason. Combo him face first and he will struggle to return to nuetral because of his poor disadvantage state.

 

[Sinji]

Yea, we can wall out Megaman's projectiles. Ninjalink uses Greninja more in tournament nowadays.

 

[dragontamer]

Wasn't trying to prove anything boys. People asked for MU advice on the Link boards, I hunted down the only tourney vid. I knew of between a PacMan and a Link for you guys to watch and take notes on.

Nothing against your work link7. But I felt it was necessary to comment on the lag issue in that video.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

BSP
Nu~

Thanks for your comments, I'll try to improve my game!

 

[Sinji]

How do you fight Captain Falcon in neutral? I can never find a formula to fight him. His pressure is too good and I can't set up.

 

[Nu~]

How do you fight Captain Falcon in neutral? I can never find a formula to fight him. His pressure is too good and I can't set up.

Same way you fight Mario and luigi tbh. Trampoline camp until you have an opportunity to set up. Galaxian ruins captain falcon's life so make sure that you use it frequently.

After a while, you can actually start to read captain falcon's linear approach options and capitalize on them. Dash grab is stuffed by dtilt, ftilt, and trampoline while ff uair loses to our utilt disjoint. Don't contest his bair though, that disjoint is dumb.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I main Megaman and secondary Kirby, how does Pac-Man deal with Yoshi and Mario?

 

[dragontamer]

I main Megaman and secondary Kirby, how does Pac-Man deal with Yoshi and Mario?

Carefully. I don't think these are matchups in our favor.

Yoshi egg spam either ties fruit spam or is slightly superior. I feel like Pac Man is forced on the offensive. Yoshi's attacks and aerials are quicker than ours in general, but we have a slight range advantage on the ground. Dash Attack is safer against Yoshi's shield, but Yoshi's own dash attack stuffs ours. Power-shielding Yoshi's eggs is key in this battle.

Watch out for Yoshi's smash attack, because Yoshi has built-in dodge frames. PacMan's jab outranges Yoshi's jab. PacMan's tilts outrange Yoshi's tilts. But Yoshi's FSmash can be timed to avoid our FSmash, and counter-hit us afterwards. I think PacMan still has a range advantage, but those few frames of dodge are serious.

Have a strong ground game, but don't be afraid to take things to the air either. PacMan's UAir seems to strike from the most favorable angle vs Yoshi. PacMan's Fair is faster than Yoshi's Fair and outranges Yoshi's Nair. It is the mad range on Yoshi's BAir that gives me pause against aerial attacks. Keep in mind which way Yoshi is facing. IMO, its still a disadvantage to take the fight to the air due to Yoshi's superior air speed... but PacMan can put up a reasonable fight... and staying grounded is too predictable in this game.

Just favor the grounded fight. PacMan's UTilt and USmash have range that stuffs a lot of Yoshi's aerials. I've even stuffed Yoshi's butt-bomb with a carefully timed UTilt or USmash before. Master UTilt, it is an excellent anti-air against the Yoshi matchup although it is high-risk. If you mess up, Yoshi's aerials really put you into bad positions. Still, I find that UTilt seems to beat out all of Yoshi's aerials (except for spaced Fairs) with perfect timing.

Yoshi's Fair is a good spacing tool and a powerful KOing attack and a powerful spike. But it is very telegraphed. You shouldn't be getting hit by any naked Fairs (Yoshi has a lot of Fair setups though, don't feel bad about Egg -> Fair for example)

If Yoshi keeps to the air, UTilt and Bell are your best neutral options. Yoshi is very light, aim for Apple KOs especially in this matchup. Most Yoshis aggressively juggle and pursue me to the air. Apple

-----

Mario is very quick, but has almost no range. Stay outside of his range and wall him out. Fruit Spam against the cape is a bad idea, but cherry, strawberry and key are quick enough to catch him off guard a lot.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Carefully. I don't think these are matchups in our favor.

Yoshi egg spam either ties fruit spam or is slightly superior. I feel like Pac Man is forced on the offensive. Yoshi's attacks and aerials are quicker than ours in general, but we have a slight range advantage on the ground. Dash Attack is safer against Yoshi's shield, but Yoshi's own dash attack stuffs ours. Power-shielding Yoshi's eggs is key in this battle.

Watch out for Yoshi's smash attack, because Yoshi has built-in dodge frames. PacMan's jab outranges Yoshi's jab. PacMan's tilts outrange Yoshi's tilts. But Yoshi's FSmash can be timed to avoid our FSmash, and counter-hit us afterwards. I think PacMan still has a range advantage, but those few frames of dodge are serious.

Have a strong ground game, but don't be afraid to take things to the air either. PacMan's UAir seems to strike from the most favorable angle vs Yoshi. PacMan's Fair is faster than Yoshi's Fair and outranges Yoshi's Nair. It is the mad range on Yoshi's BAir that gives me pause against aerial attacks. Keep in mind which way Yoshi is facing. IMO, its still a disadvantage to take the fight to the air due to Yoshi's superior air speed... but PacMan can put up a reasonable fight... and staying grounded is too predictable in this game.

Just favor the grounded fight. PacMan's UTilt and USmash have range that stuffs a lot of Yoshi's aerials. I've even stuffed Yoshi's butt-bomb with a carefully timed UTilt or USmash before. Master UTilt, it is an excellent anti-air against the Yoshi matchup although it is high-risk. If you mess up, Yoshi's aerials really put you into bad positions. Still, I find that UTilt seems to beat out all of Yoshi's aerials (except for spaced Fairs) with perfect timing.

Yoshi's Fair is a good spacing tool and a powerful KOing attack and a powerful spike. But it is very telegraphed. You shouldn't be getting hit by any naked Fairs (Yoshi has a lot of Fair setups though, don't feel bad about Egg -> Fair for example)

If Yoshi keeps to the air, UTilt and Bell are your best neutral options. Yoshi is very light, aim for Apple KOs especially in this matchup. Most Yoshis aggressively juggle and pursue me to the air. Apple

-----

Mario is very quick, but has almost no range. Stay outside of his range and wall him out. Fruit Spam against the cape is a bad idea, but cherry, strawberry and key are quick enough to catch him off guard a lot.

Um Yoshi is not light by any means, just saying

 

[Nu~]

Egg spam is awful D dragontamer
Very linear and easily power shielded.

Full analysis of why I disagree with your assessment will be written later today

When I finally have time lol

 

[dragontamer]

Um Yoshi is not light by any means, just saying

Hmm, I haven't looked up the stats, but I feel like I get sky-KOs vs Yoshi a lot. Maybe I focus on Apple specifically vs Yoshi, or maybe because a lot of Yoshi players are in the air and are closer to the sky. But in any case, I've gotten a good amount of KOs from Yoshi with a well-timed Apple. Its one of the more reliable killing attacks in this matchup.

Do you have a link to weight physics in this game? Its probably a good idea if I reviewed them, lol.

Egg spam is awful D dragontamer
Very linear and easily power shielded.

Full analysis of why I disagree with your assessment will be written later today

When I finally have time lol

NP. Obviously "Spam" is easy to deal with, but I definitely feel like Yoshi's eggs are unpredictable. Good Yoshi players seem like they're able to place that Egg anywhere they want. Yes, I can power-shield a lot of them, but I am afraid of any aerial approach vs Yoshi.

With only Air Dodge to get around egg tosses, I think Pac Man is severely disadvantaged with any aerial approach vs Yoshi. I guess Side-B is an option but the Egg's explosion radius seems to mess up the Side-B strategy.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

But..are those matchups even or against Pac-Man?

 

[Nu~]

But..are those matchups even or against Pac-Man?

I would say even if you use the trampoline properly against Mario. He has no safe way over the trampoline and we wall him out really well. The problem is that he wrecks us if he gets in too many times.

With Yoshi, I personally feel that he is even. Egg toss can be punished on landing with BF and we can disrespect his shield. Neither of us have easy kill confirms so no one has the KO advantage (although, we do have more setups)

Everything else that dragontamer said was correct.
Maybe Sinji and BSP have some insight?

 

[xzx]

I have most trouble with Sheik (surprise surprise) because I feel like everything I do Sheik can counter very well. I don't know what to do other than camp...

 

[Nu~]

I have most trouble with Sheik (surprise surprise) because I feel like everything I do Sheik can counter very well. I don't know what to do other than camp...

Use the hydrant A LOT. Shiek can't launch your hydrant without committing to a high end lag attack and makes her approach very hard.

Sheik has to play our game but we still go even in nuetral. Her advantage state is excellent, but we have easy combo breakers in trampoline and Nair. I would say that we have a lot more ways out of her shenanigans than most characters. The matchup is even imo

 

[Froggy]

Same way you fight Mario and luigi tbh. Trampoline camp until you have an opportunity to set up. Galaxian ruins captain falcon's life so make sure that you use it frequently.

After a while, you can actually start to read captain falcon's linear approach options and capitalize on them. Dash grab is stuffed by dtilt, ftilt, and trampoline while ff uair loses to our utilt disjoint. Don't contest his bair though, that disjoint is dumb.

I have most trouble with Sheik (surprise surprise) because I feel like everything I do Sheik can counter very well. I don't know what to do other than camp...

Use the hydrant A LOT. Shiek can't launch your hydrant without committing to a high end lag attack and makes her approach very hard.

Sheik has to play our game but we still go even in nuetral. Her advantage state is excellent, but we have easy combo breakers in trampoline and Nair. I would say that we have a lot more ways out of her shenanigans than most characters. The matchup is even imo

I have not found nair to be an effective combo breaker against shiek at all. A good shiek will just fair you right out of it, her fair has more range and seemingly a lot more priority than our nair.

Also no way in hell the match up is even. Stop saying things like that. Spreading misinformation internally is not good for our metagame progression.

 

[Nu~]

I have not found nair to be an effective combo breaker against shiek at all. A good shiek will just fair you right out of it, her fair has more range and seemingly a lot more priority than our nair.

Also no way in hell the match up is even. Stop saying things like that. Spreading misinformation internally is not good for our metagame progression.

I was talking about if sheik gets too close with her fair combos. Even Mario and luigi can break through holes in shiek's combo with their nairs if sheik makes the slightest mistake. Btw, Abadango himself said the matchup is even on stream.

I said imo. Giving my opinion is not "spreading misinformation" in the slightest.

I swear, whenever I say something out of the ordinary some people here lose their mind. At least explain how I'm hurting the meta with my opinion.

Edit: Scratch that, maybe it's better for us to just agree to disagree. An argument with you tends to turns hostile fast.

 

[xzx]

I have also a very hard time believing the Sheik matchup is even. It isn't. I would say it is our hardest. Sheik can overcome pretty much anything we have. Hydrant is good, but not to the point Sheik gets shut down by it. Sheik's camp game is also annoying, especially if she holds our Bonus Fruit. Sheik doesn't need to approach either, and her grab is too good. Sheik has literally no lag. But Pacman9, do you have any more tips in dealing with Sheik? I feel like any attempts I do Sheik has an answer to it. It's frustrating.

 

[Nu~]

I have also a very hard time believing the Sheik matchup is even. It isn't. I would say it is our hardest. Sheik can overcome pretty much anything we have. Hydrant is good, but not to the point Sheik gets shut down by it. Sheik's camp game is also annoying, especially if she holds our Bonus Fruit. Sheik doesn't need to approach either, and her grab is too good. Sheik has literally no lag. But Pacman9, do you have any more tips in dealing with Sheik? I feel like any attempts I do Sheik has an answer to it. It's frustrating.

Pacman doesn't care about needle camping with a hydrant out.
http://youtu.be/tTP6-EFNixg
http://youtu.be/5txhFO_nQz4

Since you doubt me, here is what I'm talking about in a more tangible form. Shiek is not the worst of our problems

I guess I can tag Sinji too since he fights dan

 

[Sinji]

Same way you fight Mario and luigi tbh. Trampoline camp until you have an opportunity to set up. Galaxian ruins captain falcon's life so make sure that you use it frequently.

After a while, you can actually start to read captain falcon's linear approach options and capitalize on them. Dash grab is stuffed by dtilt, ftilt, and trampoline while ff uair loses to our utilt disjoint. Don't contest his bair though, that disjoint is dumb.

Thanks. me and Jtails lost to NickC's Captain Falcon yesterday. I'll use this data wisely.

I would say even if you use the trampoline properly against Mario. He has no safe way over the trampoline and we wall him out really well. The problem is that he wrecks us if he gets in too many times.

With Yoshi, I personally feel that he is even. Egg toss can be punished on landing with BF and we can disrespect his shield. Neither of us have easy kill confirms so no one has the KO advantage (although, we do have more setups)

Everything else that dragontamer said was correct.
Maybe Sinji and BSP have some insight?

I train with DireonFire and he uses both characters.

With Mario you can break out of his dair after his up throw at 0% with nair. Just mash A. Villager can do it as well since they both have frame 3 nair. Nair and up b out of shield beats his dair or nair approach. The key beats his fire ball camping. If you space the bell just outside of his cape range, the mario player can miss time the reflect and the bell will drop on him.

Against Yoshi, bair wall is great against him because he can't trade. Don't use fair. Yoshi will simply nair and win the trade. Use the key to punish his egg toss. Upair is a good kill option since he's always in the air. Respect his fair. Don't challenge it. Instead, air dodge while going froward and b reverse your fruit at him.

Pacman doesn't care about needle camping with a hydrant out.
http://youtu.be/tTP6-EFNixg
http://youtu.be/5txhFO_nQz4

Since you doubt me, here is what I'm talking about in a more tangible form. Shiek is not the worst of our problems

I guess I can tag Sinji too since he fights dan

I face Dill and Zorai. Zorai is an aggressive Shiek and Dill is a more reserved Shiek.

Aggressive Shieks is our best matchup out of the two. We can get more nairs out of shield and rack up more damage.

Against reserved Shieks, you want to set a hydrant to avoid needle camping. Get the key ready. When the shiek decides to throw needles, throw the key. The key out prioritize needles. Melon is great for walling out shieks that like to camp and stay in one position. Watch @Zage match vs Zero from Smash Con. Always up b to avoid grabs (since their is no grab armor in this game, thank god lol).

 

[xzx]

Pacman doesn't care about needle camping with a hydrant out.
http://youtu.be/tTP6-EFNixg
http://youtu.be/5txhFO_nQz4

Since you doubt me, here is what I'm talking about in a more tangible form. Shiek is not the worst of our problems

I guess I can tag Sinji too since he fights dan

Yeah, of course we should plant hydrants and stuff, but like I said, it's not the end for Sheik. I feel like Sheik wins in the air, on the ground, offstage, EVERYWHERE and it is annoying. I swear, not even Villager and Mario give me such a hard as Sheik does. I guess I should just battle Sheik more to see what I can figure out... Hate her.

 

[BSP]

Last time I fought Yoshi in tournament was quite a while ago. Maybe around July or June. I feel that the MU is even. In neutral, you're going to want to take control of center stage as quickly as possible so that Yoshi does not feel safe throwing eggs at you. Full screen egg camping is easy to deal with, but if Yoshi mixes in some dynamic movement and follows them, pellet shielding them safely is not an easy matter. Yoshi shouldn't be full screen camping you anyway, because that means fruits in hand for Pac-Man. That being said, once you make egg toss risky by being in mid range, Yoshi don't have that much of a neutral game IMO. He can jump around, throwing aerials out that you can dodge, shield -> punish, or challenge and beat/win trades. You can be pretty shield heavy against him because his grab and command grab are slow, and his reward from throws is quite lackluster. He keeps up through sheer damage per hit and his weight advantage when it comes to KOs. He doesn't have anything too frightening on us edge guard wise if you're always ready to tech stage spikes. On the flip side, we're probably not gimping him until he's at a high enough % to be knocked out of his double jump armor. At that point, it's hardly a gimp. TBH I'd sum up the MU by saying abuse your shield and stay close, but not in Yoshi's face while in neutral. Also, as of 1.1.1, our DA should be completely safe on his shield as long as you trampoline right after.

I feel like vs Mario is even if we run away the entire time. His reward on hits/grabs is insane, and we can't keep up playing the same game as him. We have to utilize our disruption tools and superior range to keep Mario off of his preferred game. Force him to appraoch from the air and outspace/outspeed him Bair/Fair or land camp him with Up B OoS, Blinky, or Dtilt. Do not airdodge into the ground no matter what % you get dthrown at. The only exception is when you get dthrown near a ledge and mario goes for Fair, but you can specifically watch for the fair animation and dodge on reaction (or DI inwards and avoid the situation altogether). Fireball at mid range is punishable by Key, and any fireballs not aggressively followed need to be pellet healed. Shielded capes are punishable by Usmash OoS, jab, trampoline, and Nair OoS.

Vs Sheik, I still feel it's in her favor, but perfectly doable. The key to the MU is treating your hydrant as a temp wall that primarily keeps sheik out. None of her attacks except Fsmash and partially charged U smash will instant launch your hydrant, meaning that you are quite safe behind it + shielding on top of it. When Sheik is focusing on getting past your hydrant, go for Bair trades and punishing her when she tries to get in. Don't lose focus of Sheik when you're doing anything though, because Bouncing fish is fast and will catch you out of animations very easily.

Sinji Falcon becomes a lot more manageable when you camp the ledge with trampoline. You simultaneously shut down his grab, dash grab, jab, dash attack, falcon kick, and raptor boost, plu force him to approach you from the air where your Bair is very effective at stuffing whatever he is trying to do. In addition to that, when he is jumping after you, hitting him with Uair usually leads to 20%+. Honestly, it's really not hard to chain 3 consecutive Uairs vs Falcon and then pressure his landing after you tag him with one while he is jumping around. Nutshell, here's how I'd tell you to play the MU:

____Pac-Man_____Trampoline______Falcon_______________________________________________

If Falcon doesn't pressure you in any way, charge galaxian at non KO % or Key / Bell at high %. Watch Dee's videos and observe how to obtain galaxian in your hand offstage, because the reward from landing it is an easy 30%+ on Falcon.

If he does pressure you, stay alert and be prepared to toss out Bair. Alternatively, you can roll into the trampoline to hit him, but only do this when you're sure it'll be safe on hit. If you think he is going to commit to crossing your trampoline, do SH Uairs to pressure him. Pac-Man can do 2 SH Uairs in one SH, and double jump before he hits the ground after the first one if need be. This is great pressure against Falcon because a stray Uair can lead to big %.

For edgeguards, drop hydrants on Falcon dive. Alternatively, take the hit, tech the stage, and then Nair him for his troubles. Also consider tossing cherry and strawberry while he's recovering: he'll have to attack / catch them or dodge, both of which give you something to capitalize on.

If he's bull rushing you, don't neglect cherry and strawberry. If you start throwing them out randomly, that's an option you can condition him to respect. If he takes either one, congrats to him. He loses his grab, and his best punish on you is now raptor boost or falcon kick? I'll take that over getting dash grabbed any day.


Edit: the answer to your question is "you don't". You make Falcon play your game, not the other way around.

 

[Sinji]

Last time I fought Yoshi in tournament was quite a while ago. Maybe around July or June. I feel that the MU is even. In neutral, you're going to want to take control of center stage as quickly as possible so that Yoshi does not feel safe throwing eggs at you. Full screen egg camping is easy to deal with, but if Yoshi mixes in some dynamic movement and follows them, pellet shielding them safely is not an easy matter. Yoshi shouldn't be full screen camping you anyway, because that means fruits in hand for Pac-Man. That being said, once you make egg toss risky by being in mid range, Yoshi don't have that much of a neutral game IMO. He can jump around, throwing aerials out that you can dodge, shield -> punish, or challenge and beat/win trades. You can be pretty shield heavy against him because his grab and command grab are slow, and his reward from throws is quite lackluster. He keeps up through sheer damage per hit and his weight advantage when it comes to KOs. He doesn't have anything too frightening on us edge guard wise if you're always ready to tech stage spikes. On the flip side, we're probably not gimping him until he's at a high enough % to be knocked out of his double jump armor. At that point, it's hardly a gimp. TBH I'd sum up the MU by saying abuse your shield and stay close, but not in Yoshi's face while in neutral. Also, as of 1.1.1, our DA should be completely safe on his shield as long as you trampoline right after.

I feel like vs Mario is even if we run away the entire time. His reward on hits/grabs is insane, and we can't keep up playing the same game as him. We have to utilize our disruption tools and superior range to keep Mario off of his preferred game. Force him to appraoch from the air and outspace/outspeed him Bair/Fair or land camp him with Up B OoS, Blinky, or Dtilt. Do not airdodge into the ground no matter what % you get dthrown at. The only exception is when you get dthrown near a ledge and mario goes for Fair, but you can specifically watch for the fair animation and dodge on reaction (or DI inwards and avoid the situation altogether). Fireball at mid range is punishable by Key, and any fireballs not aggressively followed need to be pellet healed. Shielded capes are punishable by Usmash OoS, jab, trampoline, and Nair OoS.

Vs Sheik, I still feel it's in her favor, but perfectly doable. The key to the MU is treating your hydrant as a temp wall that primarily keeps sheik out. None of her attacks except Fsmash and partially charged U smash will instant launch your hydrant, meaning that you are quite safe behind it + shielding on top of it. When Sheik is focusing on getting past your hydrant, go for Bair trades and punishing her when she tries to get in. Don't lose focus of Sheik when you're doing anything though, because Bouncing fish is fast and will catch you out of animations very easily.

Sinji Falcon becomes a lot more manageable when you camp the ledge with trampoline. You simultaneously shut down his grab, dash grab, jab, dash attack, falcon kick, and raptor boost, plu force him to approach you from the air where your Bair is very effective at stuffing whatever he is trying to do. In addition to that, when he is jumping after you, hitting him with Uair usually leads to 20%+. Honestly, it's really not hard to chain 3 consecutive Uairs vs Falcon and then pressure his landing after you tag him with one while he is jumping around. Nutshell, here's how I'd tell you to play the MU:

____Pac-Man_____Trampoline______Falcon_______________________________________________

If Falcon doesn't pressure you in any way, charge galaxian at non KO % or Key / Bell at high %. Watch Dee's videos and observe how to obtain galaxian in your hand offstage, because the reward from landing it is an easy 30%+ on Falcon.

If he does pressure you, stay alert and be prepared to toss out Bair. Alternatively, you can roll into the trampoline to hit him, but only do this when you're sure it'll be safe on hit. If you think he is going to commit to crossing your trampoline, do SH Uairs to pressure him. Pac-Man can do 2 SH Uairs in one SH, and double jump before he hits the ground after the first one if need be. This is great pressure against Falcon because a stray Uair can lead to big %.

For edgeguards, drop hydrants on Falcon dive. Alternatively, take the hit, tech the stage, and then Nair him for his troubles. Also consider tossing cherry and strawberry while he's recovering: he'll have to attack / catch them or dodge, both of which give you something to capitalize on.

If he's bull rushing you, don't neglect cherry and strawberry. If you start throwing them out randomly, that's an option you can condition him to respect. If he takes either one, congrats to him. He loses his grab, and his best punish on you is now raptor boost or falcon kick? I'll take that over getting dash grabbed any day.

Edit: as of the patch, Falcon has no OoS punish on your dash attacking his shield and up B'ing immediately after. Abuse this.

Edit: the answer to your question is "you don't". You make Falcon play your game, not the other way around.

Thanks that helped a lot. This means dash attack into up b works against Greninja as well. I'll use this against NinjaLink if I face him this Sunday.

 

[verbatim]

Sheik's camp game is also annoying, especially if she holds our Bonus Fruit.

Tested this with a comparably good but probably better friend who mains Sheik and Pikachu, we found that if he counterpicked a big stage, got a 40% lead and stole a fruit he could consistently time me out (I could catchup to Pikachu but the match still went to time).

I'm by no means an amazing Pacman but I' dlike to think that I have a solid understanding of hydrant baits and fruit mixups. We need the threat of charging a key/bell/galaxian to force Sheik to approach.

 

[BSP]

Thanks that helped a lot. This means dash attack into up b works against Greninja as well. I'll use this against NinjaLink if I face him this Sunday.

I was mistaken. I tested dash attack into up B with a friend yesterday and Falcon can consistently grab us. I was using Wario's grab, F8, as a reference and Falcon's is F7.

Also, I'm beginning to think we lose to Villager. Trampoline doesn't help much because of slingshot + Lloid, and hydrant is just too dangerous to use frequently. Overall he can zone us better than we can zone him.

 

[Froggy]

I was mistaken. I tested dash attack into up B with a friend yesterday and Falcon can consistently grab us. I was using Wario's grab, F8, as a reference and Falcon's is F7.

Also, I'm beginning to think we lose to Villager. Trampoline doesn't help much because of slingshot + Lloid, and hydrant is just too dangerous to use frequently. Overall he can zone us better than we can zone him.

I 2-0'd two strong villagers at my last tourney and I was beating Magister(former number 1 on 3ds ladder) online when I played him online and I definately don't think we lose the matchup, it's probably in our favor

Trampoline is never too useful agaisnt characters who like to approach from the air so using trampoline neutral is never going to be too terribly useful in this matchup. Our projectiles beat his, namely really key. You shouldn't be using any other fruits in this matchup except for the occasional apple or bell to get a sneaky kill.

The matchup becomes pretty simply once you understand your goal is to constantly charge to the key over and over again and do this outside of fair range. Once villagers gets within fair range run away and charge somemore(don't block, just roll away and then run and char) when you get to the edge of the stag double jump over him and throw a hydrant down(or not if you can tell he is trying to bait it, his uair goes through the hydrant but it has bad range and is very easy to avoid). If he wants to pocket it then let him. Him trying to drop it on you is completely telegraphed, he can't pocket your fruit once its in his pocket and with our key we are very adapt at using it against him(I got key into double hydrant on my opponents)

Also try to avoid stationary platforms in this matchup, our projectiles beat his so keeping it as a straight projectile match is beneficial for us.

 

[xzx]

It goes without saying that we lose badly to Villager.

 

[Froggy]

It goes without saying that we lose badly to Villager.

You're playing the matchup wrong if you think that. Its same misplaced process that makes people think we lose badly to Sonic.