Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Nu~]

Bad airspeed?
Now you're pulling things out of your ass

 

[Depth_]

Bad airspeed?
Now you're pulling things out of your ***

Lol. You're funny. At least you're contributing something to this thread, albeit childish.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-aerial-speed-list-horizontal-fall-and-fastfall.382495/

I guess being .4 times faster horizontally matters?

 

[Nu~]

I want to know how being 22nd in horizontal airspeed is bad. Also, with bonus fruit charging/canceling for extra mobility and hydrant drops to stall horizontal movement...how can we have bad air mobility.

Sounds like you just think our character is garbage so you're justifying it by hyperbolizing data.

 

[Zage]

Last time I checked Pacman was too floaty, has bad air speed, an average roll at best, and average run speed. He also has no way to close gaps quickly and easily while applying non-projectile based pressure that isn't dash attack, so he's kind of telegraphed. I would have already recovered by the time you're attempting to punish my cooldown if that's what you're talking about.

Pac-man is tied with Zelda at having the 24th fastest air speed, which is above average when compared to the rest of the cast. He has a faster fall/run/ and air speed than Samus,not when she has to get around his B moves. None of what you are saying are absolutes against Pac-man, side-bing her entire projectile game are. Having the ability to invalidate her entire kit is so strong and you're overlooking it, you're just offering maybe if they hit kill options.

The majority of Samu's moveset also launch the hydrant at really weird angles that won't hit pac-man, have you played against one? Just go into training mode and see for yourself. Not that many moves launch it in an angle that is actually threatening to pac-man.

Lol. You're funny. At least you're contributing something to this thread, albeit childish.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-aerial-speed-list-horizontal-fall-and-fastfall.382495/

I guess being .4 times faster horizontally matters?

Yes it matters when she has to get around the hydrant and its windboxes and the trampoline.

 

[Tonetta]

What's the likelihood you've fought a seasoned samus who also knew the matchup?

 

[Depth_]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do think Pacman is garbage, but we're discussing the Pacman and Samus matchup, so that's besides the point. I've made several comparisons between the two characters and defended Samus on my end in a serious manner, void of my bias of Pacman's viability. I compared Pacman to Samus and Samus only.

Being 22nd in air speed is bad. Look at every character you tie with, lmfao. Lucario? He's a posterboy for floaties.

Also, are you going to Smash The Record? Money match me if you are.

 

[Zage]

What's the likelihood you've fought a seasoned samus who also knew the matchup?

I played a few Samus mains in bracket that were pretty good, in my opinion but I'm fairly certain only one of them know anything about the match-up but it was still fairly one sided. I've played a few on Anther's ladder but I honestly wouldn't count wifi.

Being 22nd in air speed is bad.

That doesn't matter when your air speed is worse than ours and we have tools to keep you out. All that matters is that we're faster.

Also, are you going to Smash The Record? Money match me if you are.

The Big House is the last major that I'm going to for awhile probably, if we're ever at the same tourney I'll gladly MM you.

 

[Tonetta]

I'll be at BH5

 

[BSP]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do think Pacman is garbage, but we're discussing the Pacman and Samus matchup, so that's besides the point. I've made several comparisons between the two characters and defended Samus on my end in a serious manner, void of my bias of Pacman's viability. I compared Pacman to Samus and Samus only.

Being 22nd in air speed is bad. Look at every character you tie with, lmfao. Lucario? He's a posterboy for floaties.

Also, are you going to Smash The Record? Money match me if you are.

I should be there unless something happens with school. No promises yet.

Since none of us have been name dropping notable Pac-man/Samus players we 've played, our opinions aren't worth that much.

I will say that the closest this match has come to happening was Esam vs abadango at eco. If the match is heavily in Samus' favor, I think we would've seen Esam's Samus.

 

[Tonetta]

yo I don't care if you have an opinion but at least get your quotes right.

 

[Pacack]

All you Pac-Man guys; I'm disappointed.

I know that you can be more rational than this because I know you all fairly well. You're not rude. But, somehow, you let this argument delve into petty squabbling.

Fix your attitudes, please. I know that you're passionate supporters of our character, but you need to look at the evidence being presented objectively. Listen to what these Samus mains are saying, because they are telling us valuable information. Don't attack them for their stance on this.

Love,
Pacack

Also, this should probably all go in the matchup thread.

 

[Nu~]

All you Pac-Man guys; I'm disappointed.

I know that you can be more rational than this because I know you all fairly well. You're not rude. But, somehow, you let this argument delve into petty squabbling.

Fix your attitudes, please. I know that you're passionate supporters of our character, but you need to look at the evidence being presented objectively. Listen to what these Samus mains are saying, because they are telling us valuable information. Don't attack them for their stance on this.

Love,
Pacack

Also, this should probably all go in the matchup thread.

I don't like the "White Knight" attitude of this post.

None of us are attacking them, what are you talking about. If being a bit abrasive by pointing out what we see as incorrect is being rude and irrational...then ok

 

[Zage]

I'll be at BH5

I'll be there if you want to play, I'm no Dee though. I'll even offer to play friendlies first if you're looking for a MM, so you're not completely blind sided by how efficient Pacman performs in the MU.

 

[Tonetta]

In any case since I didn't actually yet claim any mu spreads, I think it's a relatively even mu, 55-45 in one way or the other at most. Literally the only character I've gone to time with as samus, and that's boring as hell.

 

[Tonetta]

http://smashboards.com/members/zatchiel.150004/#profile-post-922475

is this guy a recognized pac? if yes, I'll use this as credentials.

 

[Pacack]

I don't like the "White Knight" attitude of this post.

None of us are attacking them, what are you talking about. If being a bit abrasive by pointing out what we see as incorrect is being rude and irrational...then ok

Sounds like you just think our character is garbage so you're justifying it by hyperbolizing data.

Now you're pulling things out of your ***

Ad hominem?

 

[Nu~]

http://smashboards.com/members/zatchiel.150004/#profile-post-922475

is this guy a recognized pac? if yes, I'll use this as credentials.

Never heard of him

 

[Pacack]

http://smashboards.com/members/zatchiel.150004/#profile-post-922475

is this guy a recognized pac? if yes, I'll use this as credentials.

I am not personally familiar with a Zatchiel, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

[Tonetta]

He was good enough that he used the SWD (or whatever the hell you guys are calling it) right out the gate... and ate an upsmash immediately for it. Off-topic a bit but how long do you think you guys can use that glitch before people catch on? In regards to the abadango vs esam comment, I highly doubt that esam has any clue on how that mu would work because (which leads to my next point) there are no notable pacs in the US. There's some deece ones sure, but notable? nah. I don't mean any disrespect, there aren't any notable Samus players either outside esam (although there are some up and comers). I think we could agree that maybe that the full mu has yet to be explored properly by the best on either side, and we should return to civilized discussion rather than whatever the **** it has been.

 

[Nu~]

Ad hominem?

http://www.literarydevices.com/ad-hominem/

It's not a fallacy if I'm pointing out his bias

 

[Zage]

Honestly, every post has been up until this point has been pretty tame. I don't think disagreeing with someone qualifies a post to be uncivil but I digress.

Going off notables, Esam is the only relevant Samus right now and probably will be the only one for awhile, I doubt we'll see the match played by two people who know what they're doing anytime soon.

 

[Depth_]

Welp, guess it's time to grind harder. I'm sorry if I came off as disrespectful or condescending, but I tried to be objective as possible about the mu. I've seen you play, Zage, but I still have my doubts about the character. You're good, though. I doubt I have footage as good as yours, but it's there.

 

[Afro Smash]

I've played against Pepespains Pac Man twice, once in tournament and once on FG. Both times I was able to force him to Villager where he performed better. Obviously not saying this is necessarily representative of the MU, but that's my point of reference for the MU.

I'd say Pac Man's typical Hydrant pressure doesn't work very well vs Samus since we have ways to damage it from a distance, so Pac Man's typical Hydrant > Z drop > Aerial can be interrupted with a missile to turn the Hydrant in to our hitbox, and whenever we do make the Hydrant ours, we're free to close the gap and give chase. If you go in the air our Up Air and Up B can break through your Hydrant drop, on the ground we have safe pokes such as Zair or the ability to start big combos with Dash Attack and Grab.

It should also be noted that good Samus mains are proficient at Short Hop Airdodge since we can rarely roll safely, so we can avoid the Shield pressure should you be getting the Hydrant at us consistently, and we can scoop your items out of the air. If we do manage to get your Fruit out of the air... I don't really know what you can do to us honestly. You have literally 0 pressure on us outside of Hydrant which without your Fruit will be even harder for you to send at us, and if you try to apply pressure up close then we have Up B OoS to negate Fair > Nair pressure and things like that, and your grab might even be worse than ours (though impossible to spotodge, wtf are the active frames on this move) so we can shield up pretty safely, And of course at any point we can use the fruit, possibly even to combo in to CS.

As for trampoline camping, as Tonetta said obviously middle of the stage would get punished with CS, behind a Hydrant allows us to break Hydrant with Missile or Smashes and close the gap or potentially hit you, OoS is viable but we can still just follow and land on the same side of the trampoline that you're on, even if it doesn't lead to an immediate punish. We can also FH > FF Zair over the trampoline.

As for the Side B, if there's no Hydrant between us then Samus has no reason to Missile pressure so we'll just close the gap, if there is a Hydrant then you can't use the side B to block the Missiles, if there's a trampoline between us somehow then assumedly you're not standing around doing nothing, you're probably Charging Fruit, which means to Side B and block our missiles you will need to Shield cancel first, which gives us time to get over the Trampoline with a SH, which we can CS from to dodge the pellet and hit your head. If you're not Charging Fruit you're setting up a Hydrant which goes to back to the 2nd scenario.

I'd probably say the MU is 60:40 for Samus simply because of the advantage we have when we grab a Fruit, Pac Man can apply great pressure don't get me wrong and his Nair + Up B OoS are great at relieving pressure, but overall we both have the ability to negate the others long range pressure, and when we're left with the Normals I think Samus has the advantage.

Also I don't think ESAM is a notable Samus main (no offense to him), He's a notable Pikachu main who also plays Samus, people like JonnyWestside and Depth are notable Samus mains since they actually use Samus in tournaments.

 

[Thinktron]

What have a started!

I would change my original post but i cant see it in any other way than Pac-man winning. But that's besides the point, to all the pacmen and samus mains on here, i request this debate moves somewhere like Pacman9 said this thread shouldn't exist, it would be best not to promote it.

 

[Thinktron]

What have a started!

I would change my original post but i cant see it in any other way than Pac-man winning. But that's besides the point, to all the pacmen and samus mains on here, i request this debate moves somewhere like Pacman9 said this thread shouldn't exist, it would be best not to promote it.

Thank you for anyone so far that gave Inputs on Best match ups

 

[Zage]

Welp, guess it's time to grind harder. I'm sorry if I came off as disrespectful or condescending, but I tried to be objective as possible about the mu. I've seen you play, Zage, but I still have my doubts about the character. You're good, though. I doubt I have footage as good as yours, but it's there.

Lol it's ok, I didn't think you were.

I haven't seen you play until now, but I didn't have any doubts that you were good. Maybe we'll meet in bracket and I'll change your mind.

 

[fromundaman]

No offense to anyone here, but from what I am reading it kind of sounds like few, if any, of the Pacman players here have played competent Samus players and vice versa. There is a ton of theoryfighting going on in here.

IDK, we have 3 tournament Samus players in my state (WHY ARE THERE 3?!), the most notable of which is H-man, and so far very little of what has been said actually applies to my matches with them.

I want to preface this by saying I think this MU is very even.

-Pellet Blocking is a big deal, but Samus does have ways around it. Homing missile + Zair is actually pretty legit mid range pressure if we don't have key charged as we are forced to block (Trying to pellet shield makes us eat a Zair). Key will break this though.

-Both characters combo each other well. I would say Pacman may have a slight advantage in this since he has combos that work at more % ranges than Samus, but Samus does have an easier time starting combos, especially since she can start them off of her grab.

-Raw trampoline WILL be punished with CS if you don't have a fruit/pellet/hydrant on stage to eat the shot. That said Trampoline OoS punishes everything.

-Samus does in fact have a lot of ways to kill, but so do we. We have a LOT of gimmicky ways to set up kills, ledge traps you are very susceptible to (I'll get more into this later), Nair and Bair are good kill moves, and Apple/Melon/Bell/Key can all outright kill. Smash attacks can too, but LBH, we shouldn't be landing those against Samus without some sort of hydrant cancel setup.

-Grounded/low to the ground hydrant drop is punishable on reaction by Charge Shot. Be wary of this as it is free damage.
That said if you CS the hydrant and I am not on top of it/right over it, then you just wasted your charge shot and I can shield/AD/sit under the hydrant and charge fruit while you have to recharge CS. This gives me a significant advantage, so be wary of where and when to shoot out hydrant. If hydrant is on the ground in front of me, it's easy to set up trampoline while avoiding the CS launched hydrant.
Missiles will not launch hydrant on their own.

-As Pacman, we should be charging to key a lot in this MU IMO. Key allows us to punish a LOT of reaction (Zair, Missiles, aerials, bomb drops, jabs at some distances, tilts, grab and smash attacks. Pretty much everything she has gets beaten/punished on reaction by key TBH.).
Now be aware that Key and CS do cancel each other out, so be careful of when you send it flying. One fun thing though is if you do launch hydrant with key then have key clash with CS, the hydrant will still punish Samus.

Despite key not killing until somewhat high %s, it is probably going to be a good source of KOs simply due to how much it can punish on reaction.

-While the opportunity doesn't show up super often, when we do get in on Samus, the only "get off me" tool she really has is UpB. If you can avoid being hit by that, it is really hard for her to get us off of her again. This makes rushdown a viable strategy in this MU as long as you don't do JUST that.

-Bomb canceled aerials are legit. Beware of this.

-Samus does have an easier time gimping us than we do her. I won't argue that.

HOWEVER our ledge traps wreck her life. Samus' recovery is reliable, but not the fastest out there, and that gives us time to set up ledge traps anytime you launch her past Zair tether range (By which I mean so that she can't immediately tether back and needs to use either jumps or bomb jumps).

Jab launched hydrant with trampoline on the ledge is really easy to set up against Samus due to how long her recovery takes (Just beware of her sending a charge shot or missiles to mess with you, although the missiles limit her recovery options due to the end lag), and if it gets set up, she, like many others, has 0 options against this.

This should be how you get a vast majority of your kills in this MU since there's not a whole lot Samus can do about it.



I'm sure I'm missing some stuff but I've already written quite a bit.

 

[Nu~]

No offense to anyone here, but from what I am reading it kind of sounds like few, if any, of the Pacman players here have played competent Samus players and vice versa. There is a ton of theoryfighting going on in here.

IDK, we have 3 tournament Samus players in my state (WHY ARE THERE 3?!), the most notable of which is H-man, and so far very little of what has been said actually applies to my matches with them.

I want to preface this by saying I think this MU is very even.

-Pellet Blocking is a big deal, but Samus does have ways around it. Homing missile + Zair is actually pretty legit mid range pressure if we don't have key charged as we are forced to block (Trying to pellet shield makes us eat a Zair). Key will break this though.

-Both characters combo each other well. I would say Pacman may have a slight advantage in this since he has combos that work at more % ranges than Samus, but Samus does have an easier time starting combos, especially since she can start them off of her grab.

-Raw trampoline WILL be punished with CS if you don't have a fruit/pellet/hydrant on stage to eat the shot. That said Trampoline OoS punishes everything.

-Samus does in fact have a lot of ways to kill, but so do we. We have a LOT of gimmicky ways to set up kills, ledge traps you are very susceptible to (I'll get more into this later), Nair and Bair are good kill moves, and Apple/Melon/Bell/Key can all outright kill. Smash attacks can too, but LBH, we shouldn't be landing those against Samus without some sort of hydrant cancel setup.

-Grounded/low to the ground hydrant drop is punishable on reaction by Charge Shot. Be wary of this as it is free damage.
That said if you CS the hydrant and I am not on top of it/right over it, then you just wasted your charge shot and I can shield/AD/sit under the hydrant and charge fruit while you have to recharge CS. This gives me a significant advantage, so be wary of where and when to shoot out hydrant. If hydrant is on the ground in front of me, it's easy to set up trampoline while avoiding the CS launched hydrant.
Missiles will not launch hydrant on their own.

-As Pacman, we should be charging to key a lot in this MU IMO. Key allows us to punish a LOT of reaction (Zair, Missiles, aerials, bomb drops, jabs at some distances, tilts, grab and smash attacks. Pretty much everything she has gets beaten/punished on reaction by key TBH.).
Now be aware that Key and CS do cancel each other out, so be careful of when you send it flying. One fun thing though is if you do launch hydrant with key then have key clash with CS, the hydrant will still punish Samus.

Despite key not killing until somewhat high %s, it is probably going to be a good source of KOs simply due to how much it can punish on reaction.

-While the opportunity doesn't show up super often, when we do get in on Samus, the only "get off me" tool she really has is UpB. If you can avoid being hit by that, it is really hard for her to get us off of her again. This makes rushdown a viable strategy in this MU as long as you don't do JUST that.

-Bomb canceled aerials are legit. Beware of this.

-Samus does have an easier time gimping us than we do her. I won't argue that.

HOWEVER our ledge traps wreck her life. Samus' recovery is reliable, but not the fastest out there, and that gives us time to set up ledge traps anytime you launch her past Zair tether range (By which I mean so that she can't immediately tether back and needs to use either jumps or bomb jumps).

Jab launched hydrant with trampoline on the ledge is really easy to set up against Samus due to how long her recovery takes (Just beware of her sending a charge shot or missiles to mess with you, although the missiles limit her recovery options due to the end lag), and if it gets set up, she, like many others, has 0 options against this.

This should be how you get a vast majority of your kills in this MU since there's not a whole lot Samus can do about it.



I'm sure I'm missing some stuff but I've already written quite a bit.

Thank you dude. I had a feeling you would have an insightful analysis on the matchup

 

[Pacack]

Honestly, our single best matchup is Little Mac. He cannot do anything against us if we play the game competently, regardless of how he plays. It's almost pitiful. It might be as bad as 80:20.

Duck Hunt doesn't really beat us at anything, so he's worth mentioning.

Other than that, we have a lot of even matchups with a lot of potential maybes.

I've never felt pressured against Charizard, so that's worth mentioning in case others here feel the same way. It may be that I've never met one that knew what they were doing.

I'm hesitant to say Mii Gunner because projectiles against us are really weird, but I think we probably outclass her.

Mii Swordsman? I've never played a good one, so I'm not sure.

Definitely need others to chime in on this. Only one I'm super confident on is the first. The second one I'm relatively confident on, but only relatively.

 

[Tonetta]

No offense to anyone here, but from what I am reading it kind of sounds like few, if any, of the Pacman players here have played competent Samus players and vice versa. There is a ton of theoryfighting going on in here.

IDK, we have 3 tournament Samus players in my state (WHY ARE THERE 3?!), the most notable of which is H-man, and so far very little of what has been said actually applies to my matches with them.

I want to preface this by saying I think this MU is very even.

-Pellet Blocking is a big deal, but Samus does have ways around it. Homing missile + Zair is actually pretty legit mid range pressure if we don't have key charged as we are forced to block (Trying to pellet shield makes us eat a Zair). Key will break this though.

-Both characters combo each other well. I would say Pacman may have a slight advantage in this since he has combos that work at more % ranges than Samus, but Samus does have an easier time starting combos, especially since she can start them off of her grab.

-Raw trampoline WILL be punished with CS if you don't have a fruit/pellet/hydrant on stage to eat the shot. That said Trampoline OoS punishes everything.

-Samus does in fact have a lot of ways to kill, but so do we. We have a LOT of gimmicky ways to set up kills, ledge traps you are very susceptible to (I'll get more into this later), Nair and Bair are good kill moves, and Apple/Melon/Bell/Key can all outright kill. Smash attacks can too, but LBH, we shouldn't be landing those against Samus without some sort of hydrant cancel setup.

-Grounded/low to the ground hydrant drop is punishable on reaction by Charge Shot. Be wary of this as it is free damage.
That said if you CS the hydrant and I am not on top of it/right over it, then you just wasted your charge shot and I can shield/AD/sit under the hydrant and charge fruit while you have to recharge CS. This gives me a significant advantage, so be wary of where and when to shoot out hydrant. If hydrant is on the ground in front of me, it's easy to set up trampoline while avoiding the CS launched hydrant.
Missiles will not launch hydrant on their own.

-As Pacman, we should be charging to key a lot in this MU IMO. Key allows us to punish a LOT of reaction (Zair, Missiles, aerials, bomb drops, jabs at some distances, tilts, grab and smash attacks. Pretty much everything she has gets beaten/punished on reaction by key TBH.).
Now be aware that Key and CS do cancel each other out, so be careful of when you send it flying. One fun thing though is if you do launch hydrant with key then have key clash with CS, the hydrant will still punish Samus.

Despite key not killing until somewhat high %s, it is probably going to be a good source of KOs simply due to how much it can punish on reaction.

-While the opportunity doesn't show up super often, when we do get in on Samus, the only "get off me" tool she really has is UpB. If you can avoid being hit by that, it is really hard for her to get us off of her again. This makes rushdown a viable strategy in this MU as long as you don't do JUST that.

-Bomb canceled aerials are legit. Beware of this.

-Samus does have an easier time gimping us than we do her. I won't argue that.

HOWEVER our ledge traps wreck her life. Samus' recovery is reliable, but not the fastest out there, and that gives us time to set up ledge traps anytime you launch her past Zair tether range (By which I mean so that she can't immediately tether back and needs to use either jumps or bomb jumps).

Jab launched hydrant with trampoline on the ledge is really easy to set up against Samus due to how long her recovery takes (Just beware of her sending a charge shot or missiles to mess with you, although the missiles limit her recovery options due to the end lag), and if it gets set up, she, like many others, has 0 options against this.

This should be how you get a vast majority of your kills in this MU since there's not a whole lot Samus can do about it.



I'm sure I'm missing some stuff but I've already written quite a bit.

A lot of this is pretty accurate and more or less my take on the mu. Good job putting it into words.

 

[BSP]

Little Mac feels like a near free MU. Trampoline bails you out of 95% of situations and royally screws with his usual game plan for obvious reasons. I wouldn't go so far as 80:20 since Mac can still win if you mess up, but I'd say it's Pac-Man's best MU.

 

[dragontamer]

Nu~ : Tone it down. The majority of your posts are too edgy.

I do not mind a Samus vs PacMan debate. Both of these characters are niche and theory-crafting (although not as useful as full experience) is honestly the best online communication mechanism we can get. Since this thread is discussing Samus vs PacMan pretty hard core, I'm inclined to merge it into the Matchup thread. But for now, I'll leave this thread be.

 

[Nu~]

D dragontamer
That is a sweeping generalization, but fine.

I'll be nice

 

[Tonetta]

I just fought one of your own in an online tourney, losers round 9. Took it 2-0. Good player, game 2 was pretty close. If there's a demand of a video for the set I can put one together later on today.

http://challonge.com/retziemaniaiv

 

[Nu~]

I just fought one of your own in an online tourney, losers round 9. Took it 2-0. Good player, game 2 was pretty close. If there's a demand of a video for the set I can put one together later on today.

http://challonge.com/retziemaniaiv

I would love to see it. Finding a good pacman player is hard, so I have my doubts.

Are you up for a match with me? I'm not the best, but I would love to see what the matchup is like.

 

[Tonetta]

I'm leaving for a local right now, otherwise I would.

 

[flashypirate]

That was me in that match I struggled too much with the lag but oh well.

 

[Thinktron]

Nu~ : Tone it down. The majority of your posts are too edgy.

I do not mind a Samus vs PacMan debate. Both of these characters are niche and theory-crafting (although not as useful as full experience) is honestly the best online communication mechanism we can get. Since this thread is discussing Samus vs PacMan pretty hard core, I'm inclined to merge it into the Matchup thread. But for now, I'll leave this thread be.

I would love it if you did, my original question has been answered, this is pretty much a Samus vs Pacman discussion.

For now I shall change the title of this thread to make it more fitting.




On another note, everyone sees this as even now right?

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I've played against Pepespains Pac Man twice, once in tournament and once on FG. Both times I was able to force him to Villager where he performed better. Obviously not saying this is necessarily representative of the MU, but that's my point of reference for the MU.

I'd say Pac Man's typical Hydrant pressure doesn't work very well vs Samus since we have ways to damage it from a distance, so Pac Man's typical Hydrant > Z drop > Aerial can be interrupted with a missile to turn the Hydrant in to our hitbox, and whenever we do make the Hydrant ours, we're free to close the gap and give chase. If you go in the air our Up Air and Up B can break through your Hydrant drop, on the ground we have safe pokes such as Zair or the ability to start big combos with Dash Attack and Grab.

It should also be noted that good Samus mains are proficient at Short Hop Airdodge since we can rarely roll safely, so we can avoid the Shield pressure should you be getting the Hydrant at us consistently, and we can scoop your items out of the air. If we do manage to get your Fruit out of the air... I don't really know what you can do to us honestly. You have literally 0 pressure on us outside of Hydrant which without your Fruit will be even harder for you to send at us, and if you try to apply pressure up close then we have Up B OoS to negate Fair > Nair pressure and things like that, and your grab might even be worse than ours (though impossible to spotodge, wtf are the active frames on this move) so we can shield up pretty safely, And of course at any point we can use the fruit, possibly even to combo in to CS.

As for trampoline camping, as Tonetta said obviously middle of the stage would get punished with CS, behind a Hydrant allows us to break Hydrant with Missile or Smashes and close the gap or potentially hit you, OoS is viable but we can still just follow and land on the same side of the trampoline that you're on, even if it doesn't lead to an immediate punish. We can also FH > FF Zair over the trampoline.

As for the Side B, if there's no Hydrant between us then Samus has no reason to Missile pressure so we'll just close the gap, if there is a Hydrant then you can't use the side B to block the Missiles, if there's a trampoline between us somehow then assumedly you're not standing around doing nothing, you're probably Charging Fruit, which means to Side B and block our missiles you will need to Shield cancel first, which gives us time to get over the Trampoline with a SH, which we can CS from to dodge the pellet and hit your head. If you're not Charging Fruit you're setting up a Hydrant which goes to back to the 2nd scenario.

I'd probably say the MU is 60:40 for Samus simply because of the advantage we have when we grab a Fruit, Pac Man can apply great pressure don't get me wrong and his Nair + Up B OoS are great at relieving pressure, but overall we both have the ability to negate the others long range pressure, and when we're left with the Normals I think Samus has the advantage.

Also I don't think ESAM is a notable Samus main (no offense to him), He's a notable Pikachu main who also plays Samus, people like JonnyWestside and Depth are notable Samus mains since they actually use Samus in tournaments.

This guy is telling the truth, I lost against him with my pac-man and I won him with villager. I was reckt against his samus ( We played online )

I feel really hard this MU, I liked what you said about key + hydrant I will try the next time.

About LM.... I thought that match was in our favor like you said 80:20 but I played a really good LM on the last tournament that placed 13th in a spanish national and he won me, He was on my pool.... after I saw that guy, I will say 60:40 in our favor , maybe a bit less.

 

[Thinktron]

This guy is telling the truth, I lost against him with my pac-man and I won him with villager. I was reckt against his samus ( We played online )

I feel really hard this MU, I liked what you said about key + hydrant I will try the next time.

About LM.... I thought that match was in our favor like you said 80:20 but I played a really good LM on the last tournament that placed 13th in a spanish national and he won me, He was on my pool.... after I saw that guy, I will say 60:40 in our favor , maybe a bit less.

hmm your first message on this thread you said doc vs pac is even, can you explain why you think that (as im a doc main)