Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[verbatim]

Does Pacman go even or beat any character that is potentially top ten? Some of the top tier matchups look dreadful.

Personal preference + experience, I'm sticking to characters that are undeniably considered top tier in the international metagame, with certain region specific characters added on. I don't like matchup ratios but I'll provide them since it's a good way to get peoples' attention.

The tl;dr is that none of the matchups are horrible except for Mario and ZSS, and that Pacman beats Diddy Kong, Pikachu, and Sonic.


Diddy Kong: Diddy Kong's kit is predominantly stage control based. Hydrant/Trampoline/general Pacman shenanigans deny Diddy Kong his usual position as king of the hill. Speaking of which, Diddy Kong's really easy to gimp.

Diddy Kong: (55:45)

Sheik: The machup's bad, but not bad in the sense that Sheik 0-70's us or walls us out. Pacman struggles because of how effective her toolkit is, rather than specifically losing to any one part of it. When I fight Sheik I try to rely on my safe pressure options (Hydrant and fair fishing) and abuse Pacman's amazing ability to reset to neutral from disadvantage to stay alive past the point where she can kill out of down throw. After that Sheik surprisingly get's easier, since the only thing you have to worry about is bouncing fish and up smash/air until you get to 180 and start having to worry about ftilt and fair. Again, Sheik's favor, but for all of her damage dealing prowess she'll struggle to finish Pacman off.

Sheik: (45:55)


ZSS: Have not fought in tournament. I would make the argument that characters with a great punish game and air mobility do very well against Pacman, though I think that's partially dependent on how much of the time I spend off the ground. Either way, she starts killing you a 45%, and you start killing her at 120% bar bell setups.

ZSS: (40:60)


Mario: Cape is dumb, I'm picking up a secondary.

Mario: (35:65)


Sonic: Spent a lot of time preparing for this matchup since I got put in bracket with the region's best Sonic, then he ditched day of. IIRC Pepespain thinks this is a good matchup for Pacman, and I tend to agree. Trampoline effectively neuters spindash.

Sonic: (55:45)


Rosa: Not as bad as people make it out to be, which is to say it's almost even. Unlike projectile dependent characters, like Ness who loses out on his recovery, and Villager who loses out on his primary spacing tool, Pacman can afford to play conservatively with his fruit, only using them on tech chases and out of fair confirms. If you're risky you can even use gravitational pull to set up some easy z-drop shenanigans. Hydrant's interesting in that if Rosalina gravitational pulls it, neither character really gains a positional advantage.

Rosalina: (50:50) slight advantage Rosa


Fox: I usually switch off for this fight, but that's preference based rather than matchup based. Fruits have long lasting hitboxes and are great tools for hitting Fox out of his side b. Reflect is nowhere NEAR as deadly as Mario's since it takes significantly longer to come out, but it's something to keep in the back of your mind. Fox kills you way early, but he's easy to edge guard.

Fox: (45:55)


Addendum, regional specific characters

Ness: He kills you a lot earlier than you kill him, but you can Trampoline out of PK Fire and Hydrant provides you with a safe means of edgeguarding him that doesn't get you killed if you mess up.

Ness: (50:50)


Pikachu: This one's kind of a weird matchup, since Pikachu is traditionally viewed as a zonebreaker. Pacman's great ability to reset to neutral combined with Pikachu's lack of bread and butter kill setups make it hard for Pikachu to kill you. This extends to the offstage game as well. While Pikachu is considered the king of the edgeguarding game, unlike characters like Ganondorf and Captain falcon he does this mainly by taking jumps. Thanks to Pacman's incredible recovery combination of side and up b, he can make it back from situations where nearly no one else could.

Pikachu: (55:45)


Villager: This matchup is one of my favorites for Pacman, since it effectively boils down to a lunchroom food fight. Both characters occupy similar niches, zoning characters with great OOS options and recoveries. I think Villager wins this matchup, but on the basis of him being the better zoner rather than Pocket. Speaking of which, Pocket doesn't really hinder Pacman as much as you'd originally think since you can regenerate fruit the instant the fruit goes back into their Pocket.

Villager: (45:55)

 

[Nu~]

I still don't believe Mario is bad at all. It's even, but you have to play much differently.

Trampoline is your lord and savior, while hydrant should never be launched in any direction other than upwards. Mario's cape forces us to play smarter, but it doesn't invalidate any of our zoning options. By launching hydrants with utilt or dair, you create a wall that Mario can't reflect without opening himself up to an air punish. Trampoline is excellent for keeping him out because Mario has no safe landings; a very bad air to ground game overall.

I wall Mario's aerial apporoaches out with my Bair and contest his buttons in the ground with my tilts. He combos us well when he gets in, but we can keep him out pretty well. Z dropped fruits are more important than ever in this matchup. I z drop galaxians on his head to force him into sheild. Since it bounces twice, the galaxian opens up a 50/50 situation for us. He can drop sheild and get punished by an attack of ours (I love to go for dash attack her since it picks up the galaxian again for more combos) or stay in sheild and risk a grab or more sheild pressure.

 

[BSP]

is a solid 40:60 for imo. He has a good answer for everything we've got. Cape forces us to be mindful when we do anything regarding projectiles, FLUDD can outright KO us when going to set trampolines, and he has a better boxing game than us.
Again, citing my matches with Ally as experience. I couldn't take a single game as , but I had him on the ropes the one game I did a ditto. Still lost X( . Oh, I play Mario too, so I'm pretty aware of what he can do to exploit Pac-Man. He doesn't stomp him, but I feel like he's got the advantage.

Either way, Mario's attacks on average are faster than Pac-Man's, recover faster, and they have more reward on hit to boot. Any stray hit or grab from Mario is liable to turn into a 20%+ combo, while Pac-Man has to settle for 12%, 7%, and 5% from spaced Bair, trampoline, and Fair respectively. We can somewhat zone him out with our range advantage, but things go downhill quickly once he gets in even once.

 

[Nu~]

is a solid 40:60 for imo. He has a good answer for everything we've got. Cape forces us to be mindful when we do anything regarding projectiles, FLUDD can outright KO us when going to set trampolines, and he has a better boxing game than us.
Again, citing my matches with Ally as experience. I couldn't take a single game as , but I had him on the ropes the one game I did a ditto. Still lost X(

Either way, Mario's attacks on average are faster than Pac-Man's, recover faster, and they have more reward on hit to boot. Any stray hit or grab from Mario is liable to turn into a 20%+ combo, while Pac-Man has to settle for 12%, 7%, and 5% from spaced Bair, trampoline, and Fair respectively. We can somewhat zone him out with our range advantage, but things go downhill quickly once he gets in even once.

He wins the boxing game, but we win footsies with our better ftilt and longer range dtilt.

I think you may be playing too defensively. Mario is built to break down the normal pacman game. I've thought about it, and trampoline really may not be as useful for us against fast rush down in nuetral. We already know that we can't launch hydrants at Mario linearly, so I would always launch then upwards. Trying to reflect an airborne hydrant is a commitment easily punished. He doesn't have much of an answer to z drop combos either since cape doesn't have a hitbox right above his head. You can even see how Koolaid fought Ntarps. Fsmash spaces Mario out and we have the better aerial spacing game to keep Mario on his toes.

You are also misrepresenting out combo game with normals a table bit. An FF uair can lead to a bair/uair chain/bell/or fair-> Nair at higher percentages. Fair can lead to Nair or Uair depending on the percentage. Bair can chain into another bair at certain percent ranges. Nair -> ftilt, Fair -> ftilt, all of the mileage we get out of DA...there is a lot to abuse. I'm not saying we are a brawler like Mario, but we do have a pretty good melee game. And you already know that we get stupid reward of of z drop fruit.

My advice is to abandon the normal pac game plan. Unfortunately, many of us have adopted a game of "keep away" as a primary focus in nuetral. This isn't shouldn't be our go to game plan imo. Pacman isn't even a real zoner considering fruit and hydrants aren't built for keeping people out. This is probably why they have the type of drawbacks that they do.
Trampoline is a great tool for zoning, but even that isn't truly effective at defeating rush down...

imo it's best used for forcing rush down characters into disadvantage. Something we should take advantage of with a combo of our own. I strongly feel that every time the opponent bounces on the trampoline, we should have a combo waiting for them on the other side.

Don't even know how to describe PacMan's optimal playstyle. It isn't zoning, it isn't rush down, it isn't bait and punish or hit and run...I think he's an aggressive trap character. He forces you into trap situations that allow him to unleash his heavy pressure.


But back to the topic at hand, I think we go even with Mario because we can get more mileage than him when we go in, but he can convert to advantage more often since we have to set up first to unleash the other half of our strength. Luckily, abusing walls and hydrant water makes this easier. Space Mario out until you set up, then out-do him at his own game.


Edit: Oh! A better analogy.
Pac-Man is like an Aggro/stun deck (my favorite type!) for those of you that have played yugioh. Using stun as a means to limit all of your opponent's options as you relentlessly beat them down.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

what is the best follow-up after dash attack? I normally lead into an aerial, but i get punished for this, or i shield, hell i once lead into a trampoline....

 

[Nu~]

what is the best follow-up after dash attack? I normally lead into an aerial, but i get punished for this, or i shield, hell i once lead into a trampoline....

http://youtu.be/1cLKjsYMAEc

 

[Splebel]

I still get grabbed after my dash attack when I try to trampoline. I thought it was impossible for that to happen or am I misremembering it?

 

[Nu~]

I still get grabbed after my dash attack when I try to trampoline. I thought it was impossible for that to happen or am I misremembering it?

Depends on the character. Frame 6 grabs are fast enough. Frame 7 grabs are fast enough until the last hit which is unpunishable
Anything slower can't grab us.

 

[Splebel]

Depends on the character. Frame 6 grabs are fast enough. Frame 7 grabs are fast enough until the last hit which is unpunishable
Anything slower can't grab us.

Oh OK I thought the last hit was always unpunishable.

 

[BSP]

Depends on the character. Frame 6 grabs are fast enough. Frame 7 grabs are fast enough until the last hit which is unpunishable
Anything slower can't grab us.

Are you sure about F7 being too slow to punish last hit? I tested this with friend multiple times and Falcon could grab me for the last hit every time.

Edit: remotely decent Roy players have been giving my Pac-Man trouble on FG, but I think FD only is a large reason for this. Roy can mix up double jump aerial landings on us all day with no platforms, but he loses that option once platforms are in the mix. Gah, I like screwing around on FG, but the FD only is really a problem.

 

[Froggy]

So do you know how you can cancel a projectile hitbox by throwing out another projectile?(I know that work against our fruits). I was wondering if that works against Rob's projectiles? His Gyro and laser. How does bair, nair and uair interact with those?

 

[BSP]

So do you know how you can cancel a projectile hitbox by throwing out another projectile?(I know that work against our fruits). I was wondering if that works against Rob's projectiles? His Gyro and laser. How does bair, nair and uair interact with those?

If I had to guess, ROB's laser is most likely transcendent. Dodging or blocking are your only options.

With the gyro, I don't think it's every completely cancelled until it stops spinning or you do something to make it disappear immediately. I need to experiment with it more.

 

[Froggy]

If I had to guess, ROB's laser is most likely transcendent. Dodging or blocking are your only options.

With the gyro, I don't think it's every completely cancelled until it stops spinning or you do something to make it disappear immediately. I need to experiment with it more.

Does transcendence exist in the game? Even the key and hydrant which goes through people can be cancelled with a hitbox.

 

[Nu~]

Does transcendence exist in the game? Even the key and hydrant which does through people can be cancelled with a hitbox.

Yes. Just look at needles

 

[Froggy]

Yes. Just look at needles

Needles aren't transcendent. They don't go through the hydrant for example.

 

[BSP]

Does transcendence exist in the game? Even the key and hydrant which does through people can be cancelled with a hitbox.

Needles aren't transcendent. They don't go through the hydrant for example.

Yes it does. I don't think we have an unofficial name for the property that our key and hydrant have. I call it piercing since that's what they do, simply put. Piercing =/= transcendent. Transcendent moves don't interact with other hitboxes at all, they never clash; they only respond when they touch hurtboxes.

Examples of transcendence: Fox and Falco's lasers, Mario Fsmash sweetspot, Mario's cape
Examples of what I call piercing: Pac-Man's key, bell,galaxian, and hydrant. I think Olimar's purple pikmin pierce too.

If our Key was transcendent, people wouldn't be able to cancel it out by attacking. That'd be an amazing buff, but I doubt we'll get it.

 

[Froggy]

Yes it does. I don't think we have an unofficial name for the property that our key and hydrant have. I call it piercing since that's what they do, simply put. Piercing =/= transcendent. Transcendent moves don't interact with other hitboxes at all, they never clash; they only respond when they touch hurtboxes.

Examples of transcendence: Fox and Falco's lasers, Mario Fsmash sweetspot, Mario's cape
Examples of what I call piercing: Pac-Man's key, bell,galaxian, and hydrant. I think Olimar's purple pikmin pierce too.

If our Key was transcendent, people wouldn't be able to cancel it out by attacking. That'd be an amazing buff, but I doubt we'll get it.

I see

But going by that definition isn't the laser piercing and not transcendent since it goes through the hydrant?

 

[BSP]

I see

But going by that definition isn't the laser piercing and not transcendent since it goes through the hydrant?

It'd be both.

 

[Zage]

Anyone have advice for the Mario MU? Sinji ? BSP ? Ending up losing in grand finals to Dunnobro's Mario 0-2. For now I'm thinking it's heavily in Mario's favor. We get out buttoned in every situation, and trying to wall him out isn't a viable option since he will catch you with a stray hit and convert it into 30%+ or death. More over our one get off option, UP-B, gives him a grab punish until highish percents.

 

[BSP]

Anyone have advice for the Mario MU? Sinji ? BSP ? Ending up losing in grand finals to Dunnobro's Mario 0-2. For now I'm thinking it's heavily in Mario's favor. We get out buttoned in every situation, and trying to wall him out isn't a viable option since he will catch you with a stray hit and convert it into 30%+ or death. More over our one get off option, UP-B, gives him a grab punish until highish percents.

That's the same conclusion I reached.

is a solid 40:60 for imo. He has a good answer for everything we've got. Cape forces us to be mindful when we do anything regarding projectiles, FLUDD can outright KO us when going to set trampolines, and he has a better boxing game than us.
Again, citing my matches with Ally as experience. I couldn't take a single game as , but I had him on the ropes the one game I did a ditto. Still lost X( . Oh, I play Mario too, so I'm pretty aware of what he can do to exploit Pac-Man. He doesn't stomp him, but I feel like he's got the advantage.

Either way, Mario's attacks on average are faster than Pac-Man's, recover faster, and they have more reward on hit to boot. Any stray hit or grab from Mario is liable to turn into a 20%+ combo, while Pac-Man has to settle for 12%, 7%, and 5% from spaced Bair, trampoline, and Fair respectively. We can somewhat zone him out with our range advantage, but things go downhill quickly once he gets in even once.

We can't run, but we can't straight up fight him either. I'm thinking our best bet is to constantly try to aggressively zone him with Fair/Bair and set up trampoline when it's safe, but I'm thinking it's solidly in Mario's favor.

 

[Sinji]

Mario has a fairly simple but overwhelming flow chart. This is how I fight Mario.

Never Hydrant above him. Always hydrant while grounded. up b out of shield when mario jumps over the hydrant and try's to dair or nair or when he tries to roll in. If he knocks the hydrant with fsmash, punish with dash attack. If he knocks the hydrant with upsmash/reverse upsmash, throw an orange. You always want to have the key and the orange. Fade away fair into fruit charge is good against him.The main thing to do is frustrate him with hydrants. He's going to want to knock them away in order to get to you for grab opportunities. that's when you rack up damage. When he gets to high percent, the Mario will want to stay back, play defensive and use fireballs. That's when you use the key to kill him.

Don't forget to go for DITCIT Melon like the video PePeSpain demonstrated. That's like the anti reflector strategy

 

[Splebel]

How do you deal with ZSS's neutral air? That thing seems ridiculous. Also I found out that she can go through the hydrant while grabbing so hydrant is useless.

 

[Sinji]

Check out this 30% to death combo I came up with on Cloud.

 

[Splebel]

Check out this 30% to death combo I came up with on Cloud.

Does Pac's percentage matter in that?

 

[Sinji]

Does Pac's percentage matter in that?

Yes it does. 50% is level one rage. and that's needed for the side b to kill and position cloud for the galaxion after the dash attack

 

[Sinji]

How do you fight Lucario?

 

[Splebel]

I don't know specifically but he isn't a threat at low percentages and at higher percentages I would steer clear of close range combat cause that command grab of his can kill early at Max Rage. Lucario is hard to comeback from so staying in the lead is good for Pac cause he then has the option of timing out Lucario. As far as I know Pac-Man doesn't have any special tool against Lucario's B reversed Aura Sphere charge. Force Palm tends to be my weakness along with him countering the hydrant water and trampoline bounce. Also I've heard on the 3DS Lucario doesn't like Prism Tower so Delfino on the Wii U might be a good stage because of the similar design; can go through the floor. Halberd for that matter.

Basically don't fall behind. However I never really fought like a real good Lucario. This just my experience with some advice I've heard thrown in.

 

[(M)]

Neat.A thread named after meh

 

[Froggy]

How do you fight Lucario?

Rely on bell a lot for early kills. (I haven been following my own advice lately, but after 90% or so its probably in your best interest to stop using other fruits apart from bell) At later percents they like to camp shield a lot so run into them and trampoline. Its also good to keep a trampoline in front of you and intercept them when they try to go over it. Also if they counter the hydrant don't forget to punish them for it, key throw/reverse key throw is good for this.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I haven't talked here in forever.

I have trouble with the Wii Fit matchup, even HER BEING MY MAIN.

I mainly have trouble getting out of her nair...

 

[verbatim]

Sinji has played John Numbers, who's probably the best WFT in the world on a number of occasions, so you could probably watch their matches.

One thing to note though, John Numbers plays WFT in his own, patience oriented way. It might be better to play a more aggressive, waveguider style WFT in this matchup, but I don't know of any videos of that against Pacman.

 

[Nu~]

Where did everyone go?

 

[verbatim]

Where did everyone go?

http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-man-discord-community.426513/

For what it's worth I'm going to be trying to move a lot of content back to the Pac board where it will be saved for future players use, but rn school's keeping me occupied.

 

[Nu~]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-man-discord-community.426513/

For what it's worth I'm going to be trying to move a lot of content back to the Pac board where it will be saved for future players use, but rn school's keeping me occupied.

Zage has me blocked after a nasty argument so I doubt I'm getting in there.

 

[verbatim]

Zage has me blocked after a nasty argument so I doubt I'm getting in there.

was it a long time ago/a settled issue? If so I could pass a message.

 

[Nu~]

was it a long time ago/a settled issue? If so I could pass a message.

It was about 4 months ago. If you could pass a message that would be great

 

[fromundaman]

I no longer have as much time as I used to, but a stronger drive to win than ever.

That combined with the fact that I seem to find more stuff on my own than I learn digging through the forums means that I spend most of my free time in the lab or at tournaments rather than on here. This seems to be paying off as both my Pac and Cloud are improving quickly.

In a silly move that is probably going to split my attention, I've been starting to get into PM as well.

 

[TomaHawk_Hoax]

You guys feeling offensive or defensive Pac more? Obviously it's going to be best to use both, but which do you prefer?

I'm more of a defensive(/reactionary) Pac myself.

I'm more a mix of both offense and Defense. My playstyle, though incomplete, is equivalent to a moving box of sorts. Meant to keep my opponent at arms length while I move closer to them and pressure them against a wall with a wall.

 

[TomaHawk_Hoax]

Galaga, Bell and Key are more useful vs Rosalina, since these "fruit" go through Luma.

Nonetheless, the standard fruit are essential to stopping Luma if Rosalina ever decides to neutral b.

I discovered recently (not sure if it's already been discovered by the Pacs as a whole) that if you're fighting luma close to the ledge and Rosa is far, you can ftilt spam to do chip damage on Luma (8 ftilts and luma goes flying with the next attack of any sort killing Luma outright) if you're not facing the ledge, and if you are and close, ftilt x2 -> dtilt will send Luma off.

Finding ways to Kill Luma while Rosa is a ways away using tilts and doing chip seems to be an at least evening strat as it forces the Rosa player to call back Luma and if they try to challenge you with Dash or grab the low endlag after said move and awareness that Rosa is on her way makes it so that you can react accordingly. Either buffer an Ftilt behind you to clank or damage Rosa herself. Be wary though, you aren't completely unpunshable using F/dtilt/utilt/jab 1&2.

Rosa herself is a not as big of a deal because she's light and tall so she can be combo food for us, and normal setups and being janky and always moving much like Rosa has to can be a way around her DownB

As for avoiding the juggle and resetting neutral a mixture of moving while falling and hydrants will help get back on stage as Rosa herself cannot stop a falling hydrant (great news to avoid getting juggled) you have to force her too use Down-B to either avoid getting hit or to distract her but be smart about it.

These are my two cents. I have more but I need to think of them/lab to make sure.

 

[TomaHawk_Hoax]

If characters with counters are giving you the times, try throwing a bit more. PacMan's throw isn't as balls as people are making it out to be. (i.e it's great for a quick punish). Spamming fruit from long range also helps to, especially when dealing with disjointed hitboxes. As long as the PacMan player play the defensive game, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Ikr I catch a lot of people off guard when I land my grabs (esp. Pivot grabs, those always seem to make people go "wut?") And a lot of my chip damage can come from grabs as well. Sure follow ups are limited but every now and then I Fthrow to Orange and all of a sudden they are very far off stage.