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Honestly, the best way I'm aware of is DAir and then combo Luma off the stage. The last hit of DAir always puts Luma into tumble animation, and a very easy "combo" into Fair will knock Luma off the edge.
Mind dropping some pacman knowledge?
The only issue I take with that is that the Rosa player would see this go in for punishes which Dair puts you in a state for since it doesn't autocancel and fairs I believe take Luma out of tumble putting him back in control of the Luma player. But I will check first. The only reason I say chip is because most of Pacs moves don't launch Luma outright and the ones that do are unsafe, that's why I go for chip and just treat fighting Rosa as fighting 2 people, discount Ice climbers with one being bigger and the other having simple dependent AI. Plus it builds awareness.
Let me tell you something. Apart from upair to upair and possibly backair to backair Pac-Man doesn't have anything special against fastfallers that he can't do against nonfast fallers. His BnB combos are as follows:
You use Hydrant as a mixup option, meaning don't use it a lot really. Find other ways to fall back on stage.
Don't launch it. Chances are they will be compelled to launch it and you can punish it with a key or something like that. Don't try that against Ness or Lucas though because their main way of launching it is also a reflector.
I would wait until Bayonetta players start to know what they're doing before coming to that conclusion cause she's hard to use at first. Corrin is also weird to fight cause of that side B.
No it's not but I use it and get it pretty consistently. It's a good mixup against characters who don't have quick "get away" moves.
and main. The reason why I'm here for is that I was looking for some insights on how and do against ? My friend mains Pac-Man and I can't help to think that Pac-Man goes even with both Cloud and Sonic. I would like to hear both of you guys opinion on the match-upsGo cloud all the way. It will Probably be a free win for you. Cloud is Pacman's worst match-upHello fellow Pac-Man mains. I'm not a Pac-Man main. I'm a
Cloud is Pac's hardest matchup for these reasons:Hello fellow Pac-Man mains. I'm not a Pac-Man main. I'm a
Cloud vs Pac-Man should be un-winnable for Pac. it's 25-75
Idk man, I'm starting to reconsider this after watching Shinji repeatedly beat Clouds lately.
IT'S NOT A FLAN IT'S A BELL.hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for
I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.
Sinji
I'm watching you vs Zero and I want to give some input, and this can go for you too
M
med470
since you just asked about cloud.
Game 1:
@1:26 - sleeves are ugly
@1:51 - I don't know how the stage striking went, but I would not take Cloud to SV G1. I'd prefer battlefield or dreamland, and you'll see why later. If you got stuck with SV, that's alright I guess.
@ 1:57 - stage control > fruit. Did you know Zero was going to charge at you? Are you going for cherry infinites? I understand if either of those were the case, but otherwise i think you're better off trying to get some stage control when the match starts. LEss than two seconds in, Zero has you at the ledge basically.
@2:04 - this is why I think SV, FD, and DH are bad. Your trampoline is unsafe on hit. Again, I understand if you got stuck with SV, but this is why I'd avoid it.
@2:07 - normally I'd say mash trampoline here, but you just got punished on hit so I understand your apprehension.
@2:09 - you double jump to fruit charge instead of getting back to the ground, opening yourself up for further pressure from cloud aerials. Zero waits for your hydrant, blocks it, and then hits you because he knows you're super limited and can't hit him in that situation, and if you airdodge he'll recover before you and still hit you. Don't DJ -> Fruit charge, and if you're going to insist on it, master BF cancel -> phantom fruit so you don't always hydrant out of it.
@2:12 - I like that you tried to apply pressure, but the Fair was bad in that case because it set your hydrant to be launched at you. @2:20 - If you don't have to go airborne against cloud, don't. Nice tech right after though. But think about this situation. You had a red trampoline in front, so Zero isn't going to run at you, and if he really wanted to get limit, he would've ran farther away. Jumping didn't accomplish much except put you in a position to get Dair'd.
@2:30 - sigh, that trampoline nerf alone knocked pac down two tiers. It infuriates me to this day, but this is why you need stationary platforms if you can get them.
@2:35 - ledge ump fair is super smart, good job not getting destroyed at the ledge for the most part.
@2:37 - if you were throwing this galaxian to counter launch, it was too early of course. If you were throwing it to prime the hydrant, it wasn't the best idea because zero has been super aggressive towards your hydrant so far. @2:02 he Ftilted it, then jab launched it immediately. @2:12 he ftilted it the moment after you hit it. @2:37 he goes for a Fsmash lol. With the way you threw the galaxian, i'm leaning towards you were trying to prime it, and my response is to watch how your opponent handles your hydrant closely. Again, Zero has been aggressive towards it (dash attacks it right after), so you trying to prime => it's ocming back in your face.
@2:39 - I recommend trying to Fair your hydrant if it's launched at you like that. Zero did trap you nicely there.
@2:57 - again want to point out how aggressive he is towards your hydrant
@3:03 - that galaxian combo was nice, you did 30% in less than a second. However, I don't understand your choice right after. Instead of looking to keep pressure on zero, you put a hydrant and let him land + give up the stage control you just obtained. Cloud's landing isn't the best if he's facing you and can't autocancel Dair, so i'd recommend trying to stay closer when you have him in the air.
@3:13 - good job not trying to punish that, and even better job for not getting spooked by limit and jumping.
@3:!6 - here is the decision making that pac man players do that i have a problem with. You just landed a jab combo and have cloud in the air after hitting him, but instead of chasing him and pressuring his landing, you charge to a bell which promptly gets blocked after you let zero land. IMO you should be chasing after him once you land hits. If you would've been looking to continue pressure, you would've been free to move and possibly punish zero from the side when he DJ -> Dair'd after realizing what an awful spot he was in.
@3:23 - misjudged the disappearing time?
@3:30 - if you go for the trampoline, either don't commmit to a direction at all and wait for the second bounce, or fully commit to a direction after bounce 1 or you end up easily punished.
@ 3:39 - I would've been hesitant to prime the hydrant right here given zero's track record with it, but you get away with it.
@ 3:43 - again let me commend your ledge play. Most people would be getting destroyed by zero at the ledge.
@3:56 - I don't know if you threw that bell in anticipation of zero Filting the hydrant. If you did, excellent play because you capitalized on his habit of responding to it.
@3:59 - why didn't you get the galaxian? You have easy 0-40% conversions on cloud.
@4:03 - good job staying tricky, but idk if you should actually put yourself on the ledge. Luckily zero opted to charge limit, but that could've turned out bad.
@4:05 - I think you could've turned around after the DA, hit zero with full hop revrse Uair, and had time to combo into Nair. You have a good bit more frame advantage with reverse nair, so try to land it when you can.
@4:06 - if you would've stayed at galaxian when you had the chance to charge, you could've gotten it in your hand here, and subsequently be able to threaten with huge punish potential.
@4:11 - nice guts
@4:16 - let me bring up decision making once again. You just hit zero with your launched hydrant, but you choose to remain on the far right of the stage and charge your fruit instead of taking stage control. Get stage control first. If you would've ran to center stage, but 4:17 you possibly could've had zero scared on a platform, but instead you let him take control back by not moving until zero can mount an offense back.
@4:26 - you got baited here. Consider falling without hydrant sometimes, or going straight to the ledge from the get go.
Game 2 - I don't know what zero banned, but FD is the last place i'd take him. I'd go back to SV before going to FD.
@4:59 - you did it again. The first thing zero did G1 was rush you and take stage control, and you let him do it again. BF is a commitment, even if it is small. Get stage control first.
@5:02 - I think you're picking up on zero's aggresion to your hydrant. Good.
@ 5:50 - reverse SH uair may have hit here
@5:06 - double jump to fruit charge, relinquishing all stage control you just gained and putting yourself in a juggle situation along with expending your hydrant.
@5:13 - good idea going to the ledge, since Sakurai wanted pac-man to be punished on hit for some reason.
@5:15 - don't do Nair getting up because you are committed for so long. Fair was working fine imo.
@5:16 - why did you double jump before doing that hydrant? You limited yourself quite a bit and didn't have much of an option to avoid zzero's nair.
@5:18 - Nair is your combo breaker bro. If i sound like i'm being picky, it's because the little things matter. n a matter of a few seconds, you went from being in the lead to down 24%.
@5:24 - if cloud is falling at you like that, i'd block. Also definitely don't run because that leaves you liable to getting hit out of your initial dash.
@5:27 - you double jump to fruit charge again. Even if it is small, BF is not a commitment you should be making while you are in disadvantage.
@5:33 - that was not the time to charge fruit. You were at the ledge under a lot of pressure. It got you grabbed. If you were trying to throw that fruit, do the double tap throw so you throw it 4 frames faster.
@5:36 - if that was a counter launch attempt, good try. Zero is still hitting your hydrant a lot.
@5:38 - why did you run forward? You know zero has been aggro on your hydrant and will most likely launch it at you. You would have been fine if you ducked, waited for the tilt, and then tried to deal with him.
@5:44 - that's what you need to do when you hit cloud, chase him, take stage control + apply pressure. Right after you read zero's jump , so good work.
@5:52 - idk about using i frames to charge fruit. That's free time to pressure cloud while you're invincible.
@5:57 - you stop chasing him to charge to the bell. I know the bell is valuable, but i still think you're better off trying to pressure the landing harder than just charging a distance away.
@6:02 - Again, consider decision making right here. You just knocked Cloud into the air without a double jump, and instead of going to pressure his landing yourself, you go for a hydrant launch trap, which Zero jumps right over. Stop letting people land.
@6:11 - i believe cloud is safe in that sitation if he autocancels dair, so good job not throwing your bell.
@6:25 - misinput?
@6:28 - again, decision making. Was the fruit charge supposed to be a bait? You were better off not doing it imo.
@6:31 - I like the idea. Inky can beat cloud's dair if you time it correctly. Alternatively, run to cloud's landing spot, block, and FH Nair when he lands.
@6:33 - DJ fruit charge, putting yourself in a juggle situation yet again.
@6:35 - notice zero going ham on your hydrant. At this point i would've considered walking to the hydrant and Fsmashing it.
@6:39 - you messed up BIG right here IMO. You have Zero falling into you without a jump with a bell in your hand. You should thrown the bell to either force zero to airdodge in order to avoid the stun or perform an aerial to cancel it, and then punish him for whatever option he picked. If he didn't outright die from your punish, he would've at least burned limit. Alternatively since he's coming down without a jump, you could've thrown the bell down at the ledge and forced him to burn limit in order to recover.
However, instead you try to go for a trampoline trap when you don't have the time to do so, ultimately letting zero grab the ledge for free. Instead of zero dying or at least not having limit, he ends up back over the stage, with a jump and limit. He does a Dair which would negate your bell, does a quick confirm, then kills you with finishing touch after reading your airdodge. You've got to know when to press your advantages + do traditional edgeguards and not go for traps, because that key decision right there really cost you a lot.
Game 3
@7:19 - PAC MAN PLAYER DECISION MAKING. Your first move should be to get on the ground, not charge fruit. Sigh, we've got to get better about this. For the third time in a row, zero rushes straight at you and you let him take control.
@7:34 - that chage was fine, but i would've been looking for zero's aggressive hydrant launch option.
@8:02 - do a reverse FH Uair, and then you should have enough time to combo into Nair
@8:10 - you insist on charging in the air. At least get the cancel down please. That side B after the hydrant was super dangerous, because Zero could've attempted to 2 frame your trampoline jump after.
@8:12 - that was zero's first trump attempt. Good job not falling for it.
@8:14 - your best bet is to fall into the ground and tech, and then hope cloud does not read your tech option.
@8:24 - I have to say this was a poor decision. Instead of pressuring zero on the platform after your hit, you stayed on the right side and then put yourself offstage in order to charge fruit. You need to take stage control when you can.
@8:54 - if that charge was a bait, good job because it worked.
@9:10 - IMO you should've thrown the galaxian the moment you hit it, and then set a trampoline under a platform. Instead you put yourself offstage as zzero ran right up to you.
@9:23 - Utilt out of DA is smart, good thinking.
@9:32 - take the trampoline hit right there
@9:41 - is there a reason you didn't jump up with an Uair?
@ 9:46 - again, look into reverse Uair out of DA
@9:49 - smart move right there, cross up with Fair then hydrant the jump
@9:50 - but then you ruin the ride by burning your DJ and putting yourself offstage to charge fruit. Please stop doing this.
@9:59 - good job trying to have the water cover you
@10:11 - im sorry if these are baits and i'm not picking up on them, but i recommend you stop going for fruit charges unless you know it'll be safe for a bit.
@10:13 - you shouldn't have double jumped after that hydrant. You should've fell down with nair because you had a legitimate chance to gimp zero right there.
@10:23 - please, please, please stop burning your jump offstage to charge
@10:28 - that's the power of BF right there. Pac's best stage imo.
@10:31 - i know you don't want to let him charge limit, but jumping at cloud is a bad idea. Also, is there a reason you went for Key? Bell -> smash would do a lot of work at the % he's at
@10:37 - it's stupid how fast cloud is on the ground
@10:45 - you do run up SH Fair a lot. I'd mix it up with run up trampoline, or stop running early and wait for a response.
@10:49 - you didn't put yourself at too much risk, but DJ lower because you were dangerously close to the ledge.
That's all I've got for now. You made the MU look winnable, but there's more you could've done. Keep at it.
All you can really do about Cloud Fair instant launch is launch it first yourself with Key or a Smash, of if you're close try to hit Cloud first.
I got double eliminated by to a cloud today and placed 5th. They were off stream. I went all mario and lost in game 3 of winners. In losers I started with Mario and lost game one. Game 2 I went Pac-Man and beat him on Duck Hunt. Game 3 he took me to battlfield ( Should have banned ) and lost with Pacman. I guess I have to work on my power shielding. I'm not getting the punishes I want on cloud because his moves are safe on hit if not powershielded.
