Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Froggy]

I still think Sonic beats us 60:40 if he plays the MU properly, IE pays attention to your fruits and completely ignores the hydrant. If he does those things, you're going to have trouble consistently creating space since he's fast and only trampoline disrupts his ground game. That being said, outside of spin dash combos and his Bair, Sonic's damage per hit isn't that great. Pac-Man is good at avoiding spin dash in general + his bair is slightly faster than Sonic's (don't try to go for trades though). Outside of use trampoline a lot and harass him when you can when he comes from the air, I'm not sure what else to say.

i agree with this. Worse than the laggy grab i think the great misjustice done to Pacman is at some characters can run through the hydrant. We depend on that thing to keep characters out. Its really not fair

 

[Sinji]

Here's Grand Finals between me and John Numbers. I realized that in the match up, we lose in the aerial game. WFT aerials has little to no cool down (especially after deep breathing). We can work best on the ground.

 

[BSP]

Here's Grand Finals between me and John Numbers. I realized that in the match up, we lose in the aerial game. WFT aerials has little to no cool down (especially after deep breathing). We can work best on the ground.

Why'd you keep sitting back even though Wii Fit can heal? John #s didn't really take advantage of that.

 

[Froggy]

What exactly does deep breathing do? I have never quite understood it.

 

[verbatim]

if you press b with the right timing (which gets harder and takes more time the more you use it) you get an increase in damage to all of your moves and some hp back (more use less reward).

 

[Sinji]

Why'd you keep sitting back even though Wii Fit can heal? John #s didn't really take advantage of that.

It's very risky at times when approaching WFT. Iv'e gotten punished heavily in the past by John Numbers. For example, If I get shield grabbed and thrown off stage, John Numbers has three ways of spiking me. Dair, bottom foot of fair and Volley Ball Spike. I'll do some more labing this week though. He'll be at the next Nebulous this Sunday so I'll try out the aggressive strategy. Aggressive is not bad but it's very risky especially against John Numbers as a defensive player and WFT commonly played defensively.

 

[Froggy]

I have some videos coming out where iirc I make good use of the side b as an edge guard tool. Its something we should all incorporate. Should be posted later today or tomorrow.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I have some videos coming out where iirc I make good use of the side b as an edge guard tool. Its something we should all incorporate. Should be posted later today or tomorrow.

link?

 

[Froggy]

link?

Its still not out yet. It should be by the end of the work day today. Then again the administrator appears to be MIA as of yesterday so who knows.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Just put the link here when it is out!!! I will see it!

 

[Froggy]

Ok will do. In fact I'm about to finally watch those videos you posted for me

 

[Sinji]

what do you do to punish mario when he reverse upsmash the hydrant? anyone with good knowledge on fighting mario?

 

[verbatim]

Are they upsmashing as you drop it on them, or just running up and doing that on a stationary hydrant?

I'm a big fan of using the orange to punish people that tunnel vision on hitting the hydrant. It's not much damage, but it resets the situation and gives you enough time to powershield the hydrant coming at you.

 

[Froggy]

what do you do to punish mario when he reverse upsmash the hydrant? anyone with good knowledge on fighting mario?

Key throw or dash attack. Orange works too.

 

[Sinji]

Are they upsmashing as you drop it on them, or just running up and doing that on a stationary hydrant?

I'm a big fan of using the orange to punish people that tunnel vision on hitting the hydrant. It's not much damage, but it resets the situation and gives you enough time to powershield the hydrant coming at you.

They do it when its stationary. Thanks I'll use the orange more seeing how its hard to go in since the hydrant bounces so low after the upsmash.

Edit: Zage How do you fight Wario?

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=OHzFOGOVeQxIFmXRTnMFZg the mario boards are discussing pacman and would love your input.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar sub-forum is discussing the PAC-MAN match-up. Any input is appreciated.

 

[W.A.C.]

Does Pacman go even or beat any character that is potentially top ten? Some of the top tier matchups look dreadful.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

Does Pacman go even or beat any character that is potentially top ten? Some of the top tier matchups look dreadful.

I feel like ZSS, Luigi and maybe Falcon are a few of the top tiers we can take on.

Perhaps it comes down to me not having any good experience in these MU's but I can safely say I've won more often than I have lost when it comes to them. Everyone else seems to beat Pac-Man which is quite annoying.

ZSS seems to have a tough time approaching whenever I play them, keeping them out with Fruit and Hydrant usually works well for me.

Luigi was a bit weird for me, I can't pinpoint how or why but I've got an extremely good record against 1 of 2 notable Luigi mains in the region and yet to verse the other. If I remember anything i'll hit you up.

Falcon is probably me just facing pretty average players. I feel like he should be able to get in easily and keep pressure up to beat us. His poor recovery can be gimped with Fair offstage allowing for some early kills.

 

[W.A.C.]

I don't view Luigi or Captain Falcon as top ten characters. They're high tier IMO. As for ZSS, I can't see how on earth that would be a good matchup for Pacman. He seems to lose to pretty much every top tier. :/

 

[Splebel]

I don't view Luigi or Captain Falcon as top ten characters. They're high tier IMO. As for ZSS, I can't see how on earth that would be a good matchup for Pacman. He seems to lose to pretty much every top tier. :/

Pac-Man loses hard to ZSS if he jumps around because she beats him in the air but Pac-Man stays on the ground she has trouble getting in on Pac-Man. It's not a good matchup for Pac-Man but it isn't a bad one either. Look at the Matchup discussion thread for more info on this. Pac-Man Vs. : Matchup Discussion Thread- R.O.B. (Pac-MAN V.S Machine)

Pac-Man also doesn't do bad against Diddy and Rosalina. I personally don't find Sheik that bad but I never fought a really good one.

 

[Froggy]

I personally don't find Sheik that bad but I never fought a really good one.

Go play spiral on Anthers ladder and let me know how that works out for you.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

I can see Pac-man going even against Diddy and Rosa. I haven't versed many of them.

Shiek kills us though. I occasionally struggle to beat bad Shiek players.

 

[Splebel]

Go play spiral on Anthers ladder and let me know how that works out for you.

Say what you want but whenever I lose to a Sheik I feel like I lost to the player rather than to the character. Unlike Mario and Villager where I tend to lose to the character.

 

[Sinji]

Jtails actually goes Shiek against me instead of Diddy because Diddy suffers to Pac-Man. The peanuts have no affect on the hydrant and it's easy to gimp him.

Sheik will always be a bad match up for us.

 

[Zage]

They do it when its stationary. Thanks I'll use the orange more seeing how its hard to go in since the hydrant bounces so low after the upsmash.

Edit: Zage How do you fight Wario?

IMO the key to winning this MU is conditioning him to use Bite, it covers alot of our approach options and eats everything but leaves him open to be punished if he whiffs it. Retreating F-air > Fruit for example is a good option. Once he starts expecting the fruit you can bait the bite and punish with something good, (PP Smashes, Delayed key etc etc).

I'd probably opt for a really passive ground based game. Lots of Warios like to use the bike to approach us through our hydrant/trampoline gauntlet, but every fruit(Except Cherry?) beats it. He also out aerials us, but we have better anti-air tools for when he tries to approach us over the hydrant, namely b-air and bell.

Edit: SH Fair > Hydrant and OOS trampolines are super unsafe vs him and can lead to death sometimes. Honestly, I'd probably just time him out if possible.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

Honestly, I'd probably just time him out if possible.

I feel like I might a horrible enemy of all the Wario mains in my area if I do that. I love it.

 

[Froggy]

Splebel do you attend tournaments.

 

[Splebel]

Splebel do you attend tournaments.

Yeah I went to one on Saturday.

 

[Froggy]

Yeah I went to one on Saturday.

Was that your first tournament? How did you do?

 

[Splebel]

No. It was my third and I lost all but the first set of doubles. I would've won against a Link but I screwed up which percentages were mine and timed out. I then decided to pick Norfair and run around on it cause I got tired. Pac-Man is super exhausting sometimes. Plus I lost to Ganon. I don't know how to deal with Ganon. He can sit back and shield everything and if Pac-Man approaches he's dead.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

No. It was my third and I lost all but the first set of doubles. I would've won against a Link but I screwed up which percentages were mine and timed out. I then decided to pick Norfair and run around on it cause I got tired. Pac-Man is super exhausting sometimes. Plus I lost to Ganon. I don't know how to deal with Ganon. He can sit back and shield everything and if Pac-Man approaches he's dead.

When someone is shielding everything , you are not doing enough trampoline on his face. He will stop shielding....

 

[Froggy]

Splebel I think the more you succeed in tournaments is the more difficult you'll find the shiek matchup

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

So I versed what is probably my countries 2nd best (or best) Little Mac main tonight.

Does anyone else find that you have to play super weirdly in this MU? I thought it was going to be pretty easy (until he chose lylat) but during our games he was able to keep up with me by Powershielding almost all of my projectiles or catching fruit.

I also faced a Lucario main for the first time in awhile. Yeah that MU seems super difficult. Any advice?

 

[Nu~]

So I versed what is probably my countries 2nd best (or best) Little Mac main tonight.

Does anyone else find that you have to play super weirdly in this MU? I thought it was going to be pretty easy (until he chose lylat) but during our games he was able to keep up with me by Powershielding almost all of my projectiles or catching fruit.

I also faced a Lucario main for the first time in awhile. Yeah that MU seems super difficult. Any advice?

Videos would help. For little mac, all you do is set up a trampoline and wait. He literally can not play nuetral with that out due to his awful air game and landing options. If your opponent is power shielding everything, you may be getting too predictable. Try to follow up on your projectiles like ruining behind a Fair launched hydrant.

Against lucario, we win nuetral because he has nothing to really stop us from playing our game and we destroy him in the air. But he is to be feared when he reaches high %s.
You want to aim for early kills by either gimps or bell setups. Fair to key is great too.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

So I versed what is probably my countries 2nd best (or best) Little Mac main tonight.

Does anyone else find that you have to play super weirdly in this MU? I thought it was going to be pretty easy (until he chose lylat) but during our games he was able to keep up with me by Powershielding almost all of my projectiles or catching fruit.

I also faced a Lucario main for the first time in awhile. Yeah that MU seems super difficult. Any advice?

Man, you can choose DUCK HUNT against LM, look this video:

 

[Splebel]

Splebel I think the more you succeed in tournaments is the more difficult you'll find the shiek matchup

I fought Sheik during the tournament. I lost because I threw the key too high by accident and then got stage-spiked, I think.

 

[Sinji]

Anyone has any experience against Meta Knight? What things do you look for the most in the match up and what tools work best against him?

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Anyone has any experience against Meta Knight? What things do you look for the most in the match up and what tools work best against him?

I played a bit against MK at low % he will try to dtilt -> DA -> Uair -> Uair -> Uair -> Uair -> UpB

This is the better punish he can do

 

[BSP]

Does Pacman go even or beat any character that is potentially top ten? Some of the top tier matchups look dreadful.

Diddy at the least. Even top 10 of this game is blurry, so idk other than that. He might go even with Ryu, but that MU needs to happen at top level first.

With MK, I think our best bet is abusing the fact that many of his moves do very little damage. In fact, only Fsmash and Dimensional Cape slash will instant launch the hydrant in a reasonable amount of time. Because of that, you can stand on the hydrant with some confidence as opposed to other MUs. Other than that, plant trampolines when you feel it's safe because MK's neutral game, though limited, is not something you want to deal with. You might have to go for a timeout in this MU tbh, because we just can't keep up with the insane reward that MK can get off of any stray hit. I remember telling fromundaman in the past that i thought the MU was even, but i don't think so if the MK has his Uair strings -> shuttle loop down.

Edit: also, your hydrant water will push MK off of the ledge shielding or not beginning at 38% (Pac-Man @ 38%). This is quite low, so it's a tech that should be fairly viable for this MU.