Operation: Improve Solid Snake (DDD)

[Berserker.]

If marth is spacing correctly his fair will outrange your ftilt. the thing is, at higher percentages you react by shielding, because spotdodging will get you killed. And your forgetting that he can charge the SB so he can hit you out of a spot dodge.

I meant when the hit frames of SB start, you spotdodge. It's easy to see it coming actually. Spotdodge then punish.

I'd like to see the snake vs. diddy matchup discussion.

I'd like to discuss the Snake vs. Diddy Kong Matchup.

We're disucssing Marth. You can discuss Diddy when Xeylo changes the character

btw: Yume what's the new icon? Is it the same girl...

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Edit: Changed my avy again lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Your all getting off track a bit. Diddy hasn't even come up yet. Input appreciated for next consideration.

I think Shield Breaker is well and done. You have a multitude of ways to combat it. PS it. Spot Dodge/roll on reaction. Of them rolling is more than likely the best solution to avoid both uncharged and charging. However, you roll which ever way will get you to avoid the attack the best. If you are close to marth and roll behind will put you out of way of the hitbox do so. If rolling will put you in line of the hitbox, do not roll in that direction.

I'll be getting some Marth persons in some way to get out here to help us see things we haven't already looked at.

 

[Berserker.]

We weren't discussing Diddy.

^ That's what I was saying. Good idea getting Marth mains.

About SB: Roll forward or backward you'll get punished:

Shield breaker hit frames: 19-22 -- Spot dodging invincibility frames: 2-22 (Duration 34)
Shield breaker ending lag: 23-53 (30)--- B-Roll invincibility frames: 7-21 (36 duration)
F-Roll invincibility frames: 9-19 (34 duration)

Moves used to punish shield breaker:
Jab hit frames: 3-4 (It is 27 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also use after jab the other 2 jabs or a followed up f-tilt
F-tilt 1 hit frames: 4-5 (It is 25 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also add the 2nd hit of f-tilt
D-tilt hit frames: 6-8 (It is 22 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)
U-tilt hit frames: 6-13 (It is 17 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)<- This should be used if Marth is at 100% above

Marth's moves that can punish rolls:
-Additional notes that Marth runs fast
Dash attack: (Unknown frames but it can punish well)
Fair hit frames: 4-8 (34 duration) *Additional SHFF advantage: -4
About f-air marth can dash--> SH Fair--> Fastfall

That's all what I can say about shield breaker

While throwing nades offstage does have some benefits, it prevents you from recovering high. That would make it harder to recover more horizontally to the stage. Also, offstage nades have limited control, since you can't strip them in the air. Use discretion.

Throwing nades off-stage is dependant. If you are near falling to death, throw one nade but if you far throw 2. If Marth tries using f-air to edgeguard, grenades will block him so he'll probably hit the nade then it will explode on him. If he tries jumping over the nades to attack you, who cares -_- you can fastfall then cypher

 

[Shaya]

Marth v Snake:

I dislike Battlefield.
I LOATHE Yoshi's Island.
Smashville all day, gives us better options to hit you off stage. It's hardly a landing option when Marth -should- be able to pressure you into another hit/juggle once you're on it.

The strategy:
1. Full hop rising well spaced (tippered) fair (often retreating) on shield.
----Snake can potentially not even punish this with a perfect shield reliably. Can't ftilt it, can't utilt it, can't grab it. Options?
2. Depending on Snake's movements, destroy his next action with aerial mobility.
With either: Fast fall nair/fair/uair/land-> grab/bait action ds (lol)/shieldbreaker.
As Snake can't cover behind him too well, Marth abuses this.

Short hopping fair/w-e is alright, but you need space to do that in the first place (i.e. get past the nades and tilts first).

 

[Berserker.]

Shaya, ehhh up there: (How many times do I have to do this):

Shield breaker hit frames: 19-22 -- Spot dodging invincibility frames: 2-22 (Duration 34)
Shield breaker ending lag: 23-53 (30)--- B-Roll invincibility frames: 7-21 (36 duration)
F-Roll invincibility frames: 9-19 (34 duration)

Moves used to punish shield breaker:
Jab hit frames: 3-4 (It is 27 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also use after jab the other 2 jabs or a followed up f-tilt
F-tilt 1 hit frames: 4-5 (It is 25 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also add the 2nd hit of f-tilt
D-tilt hit frames: 6-8 (It is 22 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)
U-tilt hit frames: 6-13 (It is 17 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)<- This should be used if Marth is at 100% above

Marth's moves that can punish rolls:
-Additional notes that Marth runs fast
Dash attack: (Unknown frames but it can punish well)
Fair hit frames: 4-8 (34 duration) *Additional SHFF advantage: -4
About f-air marth can dash--> SH Fair--> Fastfall

He can actually punish Marth's U-smash, even though he's on a platform. It's easy to see it coming so you can shield it, seriously. Camping Marth is the best bet here and mixing up is good too. If you wanna approach Marth you can shield drop a nade then get it approach Marth SH throw it downwards pull out a nade shield then BOOM.

Again....

Problem #1: Juggles
Marth's juggling ability is tremendous so Snake must be careful of Marth. When you are in a middle of a juggling phase, you must quickly pullout a nade and soft throw, shift to the direction to Snake's back then soft throw the nade. Marth's air attacks might hit the grenade causing the grenade to explode on him but maybe it has some chances of hitting you but if Marth manages to catch it. Quickly fastfall then pull out a nade then shield drop, it will strip then explode on Marth. While doing the strip on Marth you can additionally throw the dropped grenade to Marth to extend the hitbox.

Problem #2: Edgeguarding capabilities
Marth's edgeguarding is incredibly superior. F-air can easily off-stage Snake especially when Snake is using cypher. D-air is very troublesome for Snake also if he's on cypher. To solve this problem, you should throw 2 grenades normally or 2 B-reversals then use cypher. It will make Marth have a more difficult time because he might hit the grenades or the grenades might land on the stage so he'll have to run away from it.

What to do in the match up?
Nade camping is your best bet. Do not approach Marth! You'll just get yourself juggled. To build a heavy defense you must put 2 mines infront of you then behind your mines start camping so when the opponent goes near your mines, activate the first mine causing the 2 mines to explode due to the remore mine being beside the C4. You shouldn't use the same tactic all over again. You have to mix up your tactics to confuse your opponent and mindgames.

And again...

Throwing nades off-stage is dependant. If you are near falling to death, throw one nade but if you far throw 2. If Marth tries using f-air to edgeguard, grenades will block him so he'll probably hit the nade then it will explode on him. If he tries jumping over the nades to attack you, who cares -_- you can fastfall then cypher

.. and also b-reversals are good mix ups

Marth's tilts.... powersield then punish except D-tilt but you can pull out a nade then let Marth hit you then nade will drop from you then you jump away throw annother nade. It's not that simple to get past nades you know. About Marth's tilts again, when you hear the sword sound quickly shield then punish this is where ears are important at. F-tilt has some start-up so you can shield then punish as for U-tilt, it's more difficult though it can be powershielded once you hear the sword swipe sound, shield quickly then punish. D-tilt was clarified already. His air games, soft-throw maybe 1 or 2 times depending on the situation or how far are you from Marth then Jump away. DB, I don't know how to deal with that but all I know is to DI it.

 

[Nic64]

To solve this problem, you should throw 2 grenades normally or 2 B-reversals then use cypher

Throwing grenades before using cypher is actually a really, really stupid idea in this matchup. You really can't waste any time getting vertical after you've been knocked off stage or you will get *****, all you're doing is putting yourself parallel to Marth or below him, grenades aren't going to stop you from getting ***** off stage.

Your frame analysis of shield breaker doesn't take into account the fact that it isn't a linear attack, the player chooses when to release it. You can't just see it coming and spot dodge, that's asking to get *****. Likewise punishing someone below you while you're on a moving platform is not going to give you a frame theory perfect response, you might be carried out of range before you can drop shield and fall off it. Besides this, what situation are you theorizing here? If Snake is falling onto the platform, he can be caught in landing lag, and if he's just on it, he can be pressured in a lot of ways and usmash wouldn't seem a likely choice.

And Shaya is right about SV, it should be very high on your strike list if not first priority. BF oddly enough being a good Marth stage and not that great of Snake stage in general, is actually one of my favorites for this from Snake's perspective. The platforms give you a lot more landing options and you can restrict his aerial mobility here pretty well. Stages that emphasize your camping like FD or PS1 are ok, but be warned about FD that you have basically no landing options, walk > shield grab beats anything you do that isn't telegraphed for like 5 seconds if there are no platforms.

 

[Berserker.]

Not falling on the platform Nic and yeah SV is good too

So the changes are this:
- No throwing grenades off-stage
- SV is good against Marth
- Pressure can be dealed by hard camping
- Camp hard
- Mind games
- Spam nades
- Take advantage of Marth having no projectiels
- Don't approach
- SB can be spot dodged actually but it requires precise timing
- Punishing in the right time is strictly needed
- Mix up and variety is important here

That's it in summary right and don't blame me about the SB thing, I always succeed in spot dodging SB and plus if they do it w/o charge, it's still predictable so you can roll backwards (I was wrong about the B-roll but F-roll is punishable) to evade it.

About off-stage: Can he even recover back to the stage then?

 

[Nic64]

SV is horrible vs Marth, it's easily the worst neutral to face him on as Snake IMO

 

[Berserker.]

whhooppsss misconception of reading >.< sorry

So here's the REAL REAL in[ut: (Credit goes to Nic64 too):

Shield breaker hit frames: 19-22 -- Spot dodging invincibility frames: 2-22 (Duration 34)
Shield breaker ending lag: 23-53 (30)--- B-Roll invincibility frames: 7-21 (36 duration)
F-Roll invincibility frames: 9-19 (34 duration)

Moves used to punish shield breaker:
Jab hit frames: 3-4 (It is 27 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also use after jab the other 2 jabs or a followed up f-tilt
F-tilt 1 hit frames: 4-5 (It is 25 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also add the 2nd hit of f-tilt
D-tilt hit frames: 6-8 (It is 22 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)
U-tilt hit frames: 6-13 (It is 17 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)<- This should be used if Marth is at 100% above

Marth's moves that can punish rolls:
-Additional notes that Marth runs fast
Dash attack: (Unknown frames but it can punish well)
Fair hit frames: 4-8 (34 duration) *Additional SHFF advantage: -4
About f-air marth can dash--> SH Fair--> Fastfall

He can actually punish Marth's U-smash, even though he's on a platform. It's easy to see it coming so you can shield it, seriously. Camping Marth is the best bet here and mixing up is good too. If you wanna approach Marth you can shield drop a nade then get it approach Marth SH throw it downwards pull out a nade shield then BOOM.

Again....

Problem: Juggles
Marth's juggling ability is tremendous so Snake must be careful of Marth. When you are in a middle of a juggling phase, you must quickly pullout a nade and soft throw, shift to the direction to Snake's back then soft throw the nade. Marth's air attacks might hit the grenade causing the grenade to explode on him but maybe it has some chances of hitting you but if Marth manages to catch it. Quickly fastfall then pull out a nade then shield drop, it will strip then explode on Marth. While doing the strip on Marth you can additionally throw the dropped grenade to Marth to extend the hitbox.

What to do in the match up?
Nade camping is your best bet. Do not approach Marth! You'll just get yourself juggled. To build a heavy defense you must put 2 mines infront of you then behind your mines start camping so when the opponent goes near your mines, activate the first mine causing the 2 mines to explode due to the remore mine being beside the C4. You shouldn't use the same tactic all over again. You have to mix up your tactics to confuse your opponent and mindgames.

And again...

Throwing nades off-stage is dependant. If you are near falling to death, throw one nade but if you far throw 2. If Marth tries using f-air to edgeguard, grenades will block him so he'll probably hit the nade then it will explode on him. If he tries jumping over the nades to attack you, who cares -_- you can fastfall then cypher

.. and also b-reversals are good mix ups

Marth's tilts.... powersield then punish except D-tilt but you can pull out a nade then let Marth hit you then nade will drop from you then you jump away throw annother nade. It's not that simple to get past nades you know. About Marth's tilts again, when you hear the sword sound quickly shield then punish this is where ears are important at. F-tilt has some start-up so you can shield then punish as for U-tilt, it's more difficult though it can be powershielded once you hear the sword swipe sound, shield quickly then punish. D-tilt was clarified already. His air games, soft-throw maybe 1 or 2 times depending on the situation or how far are you from Marth then Jump away. DB, I don't know how to deal with that but all I know is to DI it.

Not falling on the platform Nic and yeah SV is good too

So the changes are this:
- No throwing grenades off-stage
- SV is good against Marth
- Pressure can be dealed by hard camping
- Camp hard
- Mind games
- Spam nades
- Take advantage of Marth having no projectiels
- Don't approach
- SB can be spot dodged actually but it requires precise timing
- Punishing in the right time is strictly needed
- Mix up and variety is important here

That's it in summary right and don't blame me about the SB thing, I always succeed in spot dodging SB and plus if they do it w/o charge, it's still predictable so you can roll backwards (I was wrong about the B-roll but F-roll is punishable) to evade it.

SV, it should be very high on your strike list if not first priority. BF oddly enough being a good Marth stage and not that great of Snake stage in general, is actually one of my favorites for this from Snake's perspective. The platforms give you a lot more landing options and you can restrict his aerial mobility here pretty well. Stages that emphasize your camping like FD or PS1 are ok, but be warned about FD that you have basically no landing options, walk > shield grab beats anything you do that isn't telegraphed for like 5 seconds if there are no platforms.

 

[Shaya]

Operation: Improve Solid Snake in the Marth match up requires some countering of strategies. Shieldbreaker is not a reliable strategy. Dash attack (Marths) is not a reliable strategy on Snake's rolls/techs/etc. Somehow make nades better maybe?

Many Marth mains in general are not really worried about the things [nades] anymore.
Your head is always exposed (not protected by a nade), and our aerials are made to hit tall things on their noggins. It's lucky Snake is reasonably slender, so aiming for his head wouldn't be a liability like against Dedede.

Running with Nades backwards can still be reasonably safe with fair (but harder), I would generally start landing with tippered nairs in this case, and dancing blade any of your next movements (i.e. you can only roll, or shield and pivot grab). Include the shield decay of two hits of nair and you're suddenly in easy shield poke territory.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I found it interesting that BF would be more beneficial for snake than marth. I wasn't sure if platform tricks > being utilted or poked into the air through platforms. But yea, I guess the many landing options do make this stage easier to land on.

Also, what's with the head? I thought tippered was just the sweetspot of the hitbox.

 

[Shaya]

I mean aiming for Snake's head with the sword at the most horizontal displacement of the hit.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

When recovering against Marth you should try to get as high as possible, I say use your C4 wisely and never leave it on the stage when your cyphering offstage, thats just asking for death. If you get hit off stage blow it up IMMEDIATELY. A good strategy to do is that if your hit off horizontally, C4 yourself immediately so that you will be above marth and in a better position, also becareful when using cypher, aim it so that your sure that marth can't hit you in the startup lag. If your hit up one of the best things to do is to cypher as high as you can and drop a nikita, then fall with the nikita so that youll have a hitbox protecting you.

When trying to land, watch Marth to see if he will wait for you to land or go up and attack you. If hes trying to attack you try to fast fall through his aerials or nade counter, but if he spaces well he can hit you w/o hitting the nade or even avoid the explosion. If he's trying to catch you on landing, judge your horizontal position relative to his and either keep moving forward if hes behind you or C4 -reversal if hes in front. On landing, Snake basically have 3 options, nade/nade-reversal, airdodge, bair. You want your back to be facing him because a sweet spot bair is actually safe on shield because of the shield stun. But if you miss you will be punished. I say bair is your best move but use it wisely, nade pull is good too but he can just grab you, so yeah, marth has way more options than Snake on this one.

With CQC Marth dominates Snake, so make sure to always have nades near you, dont be predictable in camping, as he can manuver through your nades, but always mix it up.

I'm not that experienced in this matchup so I cant really give any solid advices, but hopefully that helps.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Snake's a pain in the butt for marth. WE (or atleast my marth buds) FEAR that ftilt. His second ftilt outranges something...I forget what.

But basically, Snake has a problem with three things.

1. Above Marth
If marth doesnt follow you fast enough try b reversing a grenade. It works pretty consistently, I've never found the C4 too effective but it can work to.

2.On the edge vs. Marth
Really just mix it up. Don't get knocked off really, Snakes have no reason to be knocked off honestly. With his grenades, C4, Nikita, Mines, and his ridunkolous tilts. AND HIS WEIGHT, Snake's weight gives him a big advantage. If you can get Marth to get his smashes stale you are garunteed to live past 170 unless they get a tipper at the edge

3. Off the edge vs. Marth
You have no reason to get knocked off early....Mix it up, make sure you have stage control

High rise is always best....dont get close to edge. Try to avoid Marth when comes after pretty much...

 

[napZzz]

I'll write up something on anti juggles and how to camp marth later. Keep up the work guys, even if its not right thats what this is here for. Its a discussion we can all partake in and correct either when we make mistakes to help improve snake to his fullest

 

[Berserker.]

So asides from juggles, SH airs, air games, pressures etc. what area other stuff about Marth?

The real solution more than camping is mixing up IMO. It was said a lot anyway:

Mix-up our recovery

mix up how you land

mix up your recovery as much as you possible can

mix up your tactics

mix it up with 1, 2 b-reversals and ff-airdodge

he can manuver through your nades, but always mix it up.

Really just mix it up

Mix it up, make sure you have stage control

 

[6Mizu]

I'd like to see the snake vs. diddy matchup discussion.

Can anyone message me how to get the snake head graffic on the bottom of my mini-profile when i post too? You kno the character avatar that lets people know what character you main...

i would just fight marth with well cooked grenades, short lobbed grenades, and full hopped nairs. ftilt to punish.

I'd like to discuss the Snake vs. Diddy Kong Matchup.

How to use bananas to our advantage with mindgames (throw them up on platforms, and leave a C4 by them/grenade). Throw nana behind us so they have to come thru us to get it. Throw it in the air and use usmash. Throw it down, spot dodge with light movement back so we have just enough space to punish them with ftilt if they come get it.

anyone kno any good setups for getting them to trip on the bannana, and then using fsmash?
also, i think the way a match starts against diddy is important. I usually take diddy to BF, and to start off, i get under the platform and DACUS to diddys side, cuz i think the first thing they do is to try and get the banana out. Lately, i've been in training mode, as soon as the game starts i pluck a grenade, do a jump and toss it, and then DACUS over. I notice the hopped grenade lands about where his banana would land on the platform. And if i dont do those two, i take that opportunity to plant a mine on the platform i start on before chasing the diddy.

WTF!?!? that's a Triple Post Rchau, that's against the rules...don't do that.

Operation: Improve Solid Snake in the Marth match up requires some countering of strategies. Shieldbreaker is not a reliable strategy. Dash attack (Marths) is not a reliable strategy on Snake's rolls/techs/etc. Somehow make nades better maybe?

Many Marth mains in general are not really worried about the things [nades] anymore.
Your head is always exposed (not protected by a nade), and our aerials are made to hit tall things on their noggins. It's lucky Snake is reasonably slender, so aiming for his head wouldn't be a liability like against Dedede.

Running with Nades backwards can still be reasonably safe with fair (but harder), I would generally start landing with tippered nairs in this case, and dancing blade any of your next movements (i.e. you can only roll, or shield and pivot grab). Include the shield decay of two hits of nair and you're suddenly in easy shield poke territory.

I disagree about our head being always being open. Just saying. But snake can Close Throw and just wait....... this cover us.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said this earlier but, to temporarily shut down SH Spaced Fairs.....simply Close Throw a Nade. This give Snake some time to move away from Marth and set something up....or just "take a breather".
Anti juggles- Well Snake has a a lot of this.....people think they can simply juggle Snake has lots of ways to get around this.
Air dodging-The easiest way to Anti-juggle. That probably is not the best Anti juggle option.
C4- On the way down from Cypher use your C4 defensively. Simply just let it drop it and....stay close to it on the rest of the way down.
Grenades- Grenades are a great way to Anti-juggle. Let me explain, all of us know how to S.D.I. (excluding beginners) we'll aim for either top left or top right corners of the stage...so this way we have a lot of time to throw grenades. There's a couple different ways to do this....(I mean throw grenades).
-You can just throw them out normally and recover immediately after....this way when you decide to let go of your Cypher the grenades will explode leaving the area you want to land on "open".
-The next way is...to pull a grenade after you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed........pull a grenade and just hold it and when you get to about ground level throw it, this will (obviously) cook the grenade and if anyone tries to appraoch the Nade will stop them by blowing-up in there face.
- After you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed....let yourslef fall and as soon ther approach... Cypher and go to the top of the screen (where you start to get damage) let go of your Cypher, then quickly Close throw a Nade or 2 on the way down.....let them fall and on the way down "follow them" down. This will create a wall very close to where you want to land....making very hard to approach Snake. And if you do approach the Nade will stop almost all juggles.
- This one is very simple..... after you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed....pull a grenade and just hold it till you reach the ground....and also if you land w/ a grenade in you hand Snake's shield comes out 2 Frames faster. This will obviously stop juggles cause if they try hit you the grenade will blow up as soon as Snake gets hit.
-Then there the mixture of 2- For this drop a C4 in one direction and when you get close to your opponent quickly Reversal B a grenade. This will give Snake Momentum on the opposite direction he was falling.
-Then there's landing/grabing the edge using Aerials.
N-air- this is as simple as it sound use Nair (be sure to space it correctly) on your way down. They get hit by one of the hits of Nair and there you have it. There's also Space Nair to where all hits come out and it stop by the edge so Snake automatically grabs the edge after he finishes Nair.
Bair- Probably the easiest of all anti juggle Techniques and the one beginner Snakes luv to use. When you get close the opponent, who's trying to Juggle you, just use Bair or Bair Fast fall.

Ohhh....one more thing.
Always and I mean always MIX UP how you land/Anti-Juggle

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Before posting. I can already tell this write-up is going to be a pain in the *** x.x

And Shaya is right about SV, it should be very high on your strike list if not first priority. BF oddly enough being a good Marth stage and not that great of Snake stage in general, is actually one of my favorites for this from Snake's perspective. The platforms give you a lot more landing options and you can restrict his aerial mobility here pretty well. Stages that emphasize your camping like FD or PS1 are ok, but be warned about FD that you have basically no landing options, walk > shield grab beats anything you do that isn't telegraphed for like 5 seconds if there are no platforms.

SV is horrible vs Marth, it's easily the worst neutral to face him on as Snake IMO

I find it really funny that Marth ***** Snake on pretty much all neutrals. Only two people haven't mentioned are Lylat Cruise (reigional neutral) and Yoshi's Island. Anyone consider what CPs would actually be useful? Apprently the preconcieved notions I had earlier regarding stages doesn't fit with everyone's opinions. I'm starting to think that if all these neutrals arent' really that useful against Marth, then nothing we could CP would really be that useful either. I am starting to think that no matter the stage, nothing will really help much. It will come down to user preference in the end I bet v.v

I still think that RC is a possible CP. Not really sure how to explain it, but it seems to work if Snake plays a keep away game from marth letting Marth do all the approaching on RC. RC truly becomes a long match x.x

Many Marth mains in general are not really worried about the things [nades] anymore.
Your head is always exposed (not protected by a nade), and our aerials are made to hit tall things on their noggins. It's lucky Snake is reasonably slender, so aiming for his head wouldn't be a liability like against Dedede.

Running with Nades backwards can still be reasonably safe with fair (but harder), I would generally start landing with tippered nairs in this case, and dancing blade any of your next movements (i.e. you can only roll, or shield and pivot grab). Include the shield decay of two hits of nair and you're suddenly in easy shield poke territory.

I want to say that grenades are really only effective in the match up if they are used as a wall. If Snake is holding onto them Marth will just outspace us as you said. That is where grenade usage can become a liability if they arent' used properly.

 

[6Mizu]

LOL! Xeylode posted this while I was working on my Anti-Juggle post so it apperared right under mine....w/o me noticing til now.
Any way so those are the best ways to Anti-Juggle. the post is 2nd post above this one.

Tell me waht you guys think.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

ehhh... not a big fan of it actually, but you do have some good ideas. First of all, aiming for the corners are called D.I., S.D.I. is Smash DI, which is smash the control stick and c-stick in a direction to get out of a multihit attack (pikachu's dsmash).

One important thing you didn't mention is using the nikita on recovery, when your hit up, close to the top blast zone, jump+cypher or cypher up as far as possible, then fire a nikita and drop it ASAP, this way you will be too high up to be punished for the ending lag. The thing that makes nikita more superior to grenade or C4 is that it is a constant falling hitbox that you can follow.

Grenades only explode if it is hit by a hitbox or after 3 seconds, a good Marth will know the timing enough to avoid the nades and still juggle you. If your going to try to land with a nade, make sure you pull the nade when your close to the ground, or you will get hit, he can hit you and avoid the explosion if he tippers a fair. Be careful when you b-reverse, top players can see it coming and punish you for doing it, dont b-reverse unless you need it (your moving towards marth horizontally, dont do it if your moving away).
I like using C4 for the wavebouncing momentum shift, you can shift your momentum and/or directing your facing w/o having to pull a grenade. The thing about C4 is that Marth can react to you blowing it up by airdodging because of the lag it takes to explode it first.

Airdodging is good if your falling and hes on the way up, this way you can fast fall air dodge through his attacks and get under him, giving you a chance to punish. if your both falling marth can hit you in the ending lag of your airdodge.

Bair is a good move if your back is facing him, but know that he can hit you if your not directly horizontal with him and avoid your attack.

I would really avoid using Nair against Marth, Marth can upb after you kick him twice. As for recovering, Nair lasts a while and has landing lag, learn the distance so that you can autocancel a nair and a fastfalling nair. But having said that, your still exposed under you when you nair, so it wont protect you at all if marth can get under you, plus he can react to you using it because of how long nair lasts.


As for fighting marth, it is very important for snake to close throw nades, shield drop nades, just make sure you have nades nearby. But know that pulling a nade and lobbing it have tons of lag, a skilled marth player can rush you and hit you in the laf, and with marth having quick attack with thinner hitboxes (nair, dtilt, utilt, shield breaker) he can hit you w/o hitting the nade. I'd say at the top level, Marth def has the advantage over Snake. But nade camping is still our best bet.

 

[Shaya]

Final D - Marth can struggle a bit handling some 'camp' (mostly dash atttack/dacus stuff, but it isn't too bad). Juggles reasonably well. Can't vary landings himself though.
Battlefield - Can be -really- annoying against Snake lopping grenades and using dash attacks properly. Really, really really annoying.
Yoshi's Island - Marth gets ***** (ive said this)
Smashville - Pretty good =)
Pkmn Stadium - Not bad for Snake, when Marth bans halberd, this or Frigate is probably one of their best CPs.
Lylat - I've had good experiences against Snake on this stage, but honestly haven't played a Snake on it in a long long time (I havent played it since I thought Snake ***** Marth `-`)

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Good stuff, I didnt know about how to CP marth, thanks!

btw, Kurumi is a deceptive ***** lol.

 

[Turazrok]

Final D - Marth can struggle a bit handling some 'camp' (mostly dash atttack/dacus stuff, but it isn't too bad). Juggles reasonably well. Can't vary landings himself though.
Battlefield - Can be -really- annoying against Snake lopping grenades and using dash attacks properly. Really, really really annoying.
Yoshi's Island - Marth gets ***** (ive said this)
Smashville - Pretty good =)
Pkmn Stadium - Not bad for Snake, when Marth bans halberd, this or Frigate is probably one of their best CPs.
Lylat - I've had good experiences against Snake on this stage, but honestly haven't played a Snake on it in a long long time (I havent played it since I thought Snake ***** Marth `-`)

Yeah this guy is awesome. Or you could have just gone to the marth boards, checked their matchup thread, and got their opinion on Snake's best stage.

 

[Berserker.]

Duh he's a Brawl back dude. Good thing he's here and he mains Marth which makes it even better

 

[6Mizu]

Yeah this guy is awesome. Or you could have just gone to the marth boards, checked their matchup thread, and got their opinion on Snake's best stage.

Duh he's a Brawl back dude. Good thing he's here and he mains Marth which makes it even better

ummmmm pretty much what Breserk said.....he's Brawl Back. Also he's like the best Marth in Australia? (i think)
He's also very knowledgeable, I know this because when I use to play Marth.....just by reading his post I could tell he new a lot about Marth.
My point Shaya is awesome!

BTW, I no longer play Marth my list is:
Main: R.O.B.
Secondary: Snake
and that's it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm making a trip down to Madison this weekend, so I'll probably update change characters and make the write-up around saturday evening... sunday-ish.

 

[Berserker.]

So who do you think will be after Marth DDD?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I vote for DDD, its a matchup that I play often but get ***** at, but I'm not satisfied with Marth yet, until someone take everything thats being said and make a neat comprehensive summary I won't be satisfyed.

 

[Berserker.]

If that's the case I'm not saying anything about DDD cause I don't have experience against him and THERE IS NO WAY I CAN SOLVE THAT BY PAYING FOR GOING A BROAD (No way dude)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Give suggestions if you like, but keep discussing marth. Shaya mentioned on how Snake cannot do anything much OoS against FH stuff. Even a post on 'vertical spacing' mentioned this as well.

How should one go about getting around that? OoS Uair, Nair, Bair won't work very well I fear. The attacks are too slow and Marth could alreadly be full on his way to retreating or beating us out with another aerial. My guess would be to ignore Marth in the air for now and try to intercept his landing if at all possible.

This is also where stages like YI, BF, Lylat, etc. could help Snake out. Marth's ability to abuse this on his shield is reduced as he cannot come down as easily in places he likes. He has to FF, land on platforms, or maneveur around them.

 

[J4pu]

fall with your nikita maybe to avoid juggle traps?
it doesn't hurt you, as long as you are close to it marth's wide sword swing will hit it if he hits you = you get hit by [Uair] Marth gets hit by nikita, situation resets > cypher up again so you can repeat if a landing opportunity was not created. I'm not entirely sure but I don't think you would mind trading hit for hit with a marth (during their advantageous positioning).

iono, I don't main snake, just thought I'd throw it out there.

also if marth has you pressured into a corner and then FH's a Fair on your shield I think you could use his height against him by getting out of the pressure situation with a quick DACUS/boostsmash/mortarslide. It's not really a counter to it, but it prevents it from allowing him to abuse it as a pressuring tool. (well he can still pressure your shield I just mean you should be able to get out of corners which gives you a little more freedom)

 

[Berserker.]

There's one thing I do when he Oos, I pull out a nade shield drop and punishing Marth's landing... What would be Snake's best move on Marth's landing, maybe a dash attack or u-tilt and PUNISH HARD Marth's recovery especailly with F-smash (lol seriously) because Marth's recovery is predictable and yeah. You can punish the ending lag anyway.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Yea, fsmash on whiffed DS is too good. I like to reverse DS for that reason, plus it's just a surprise factor or something. I dunno, I don't main marth. If marth is recovering, he should DS to snap to the ledge. If he messes up, punish or gimp/edgehog. Be wary of edgeguarding too close, marth has pretty good edge tactics and can plank you when near. Of course he wont plank the entire match, since we can deal with that.

 

[Superspright]

I'm sorry, but I never ever see any snakes just simply do an underhanded grenade to cypher--Then catch it and attempt to land. That seems to work pretty well for me. PSing grenades or just SHADing with a grenade seems to give me plenty of space--and as soon as it explodes here comes the grab or whatever. Depending on what your opponent does.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I'm sorry, but I never ever see any snakes just simply do an underhanded grenade to cypher--Then catch it and attempt to land. That seems to work pretty well for me. PSing grenades or just SHADing with a grenade seems to give me plenty of space--and as soon as it explodes here comes the grab or whatever. Depending on what your opponent does.

Hmm I like that idea of catching the grenade, if you have success with it maybe it will work as a good way to recover.

 

[Berserker.]

One thing about that thing your talking about ^

Is it useful against Marth?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

i do this at times. it situational. it can be a liability as u r only holding on to it which means it will not explode if u are hit. and if u get hit while holding it, the timer may go before u get out of hitstun. boom u dead at higher percents. i recommend only doing this when u are going for the ledge or u know u will get a free landing. grabing with nair to ledge is good explosion covers the ledge. i typed this on pspnet it sux x.x

 

[Berserker.]

Oh okay O_O

About Marth:

I have problems to submit and solutions:

Problems:
Speed- Marth is a fast runner + the fastest walker in Brawl, I'm thinking to just walk instead of running with Snake. Why? So we can let Marth pressure us and we can time punishment. I say grenade countering is best IMO

Air games- Ignore Marth's air games, just stay on ground and don't let him SH U-air or U-tilt you. Learn to powershield then punish

Advantages:
KOs- Marth relies only on edgeguard KOs. You can KO him with a fresh U-tilt when he's at around 90-100%.

Poor recovery- Marth's recovery isn't good. You can even punish it with F-smash.

 

[breez]

I have been playing snake vs marth in brawl with an equally dedicated player since release.

Sorry for the precursor, but this thread has so far been disappointing. I was hoping to see a deep discussion between snakes who intimately know the marth matchup. Instead, all we have is match up advise regurgitated for a few pages.

While there has been a few obviously knowledgeable posts by obviously experienced players, the advise would better be suited in a matchup thread. The framerate data, however, was interesting!

If anyone would like to discuss very specific positions and options in specific situations, then I would be very much obliged to join in. Telling someone to use a lot of nades, or mix up their landings is definitely beneficial in telling someone who is just learning the matchup, but are any other snake vs marth vets up for discussing some deeper stuff?

edit: Basically what I am saying is that 95% of this information is useless to a snake who is experienced in this matchup. We have died thousands of times to X method, and now want to refine advanced strategy without being redundant.