Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
i gots paper to write. /johns
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Operation: Improve Solid Snake (DDD)
- Thread starter Elyssa Xey Hexen
- Start date
Berserker.
:^)
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- Jun 8, 2009
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- 18,990
It's too long--ish right?
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
its just not formatted, the way it is now its a wall of text so its hard to read. Look up some of *sniff* Susa's guides, she formats them well so that its comprehensive and pleasing to the eyes.
Berserker.
:^)
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- Jun 8, 2009
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Good point if only Susa was here uhh....
Dang it I'm making myself sad cause of the loss of Susa
Dang it I'm making myself sad cause of the loss of Susa
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
Too lazy to read and comment on the whole wall of text but as I was skimming by I noticed two things at the end of it
Irrelevant, challenging Marth off stage = horrible idea, and usually you can only edge hog if he DI'd badly and/or recovered incorrectly. Marth's recovery is not a weakness Snake is able to exploit. Best option is to let him have the ledge and try to play the ledge trap well.
Not true at all, Marth can also get KO attacks off of juggles and other things.
Irrelevant, challenging Marth off stage = horrible idea, and usually you can only edge hog if he DI'd badly and/or recovered incorrectly. Marth's recovery is not a weakness Snake is able to exploit. Best option is to let him have the ledge and try to play the ledge trap well.
Berserker.
:^)
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
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Man if only Susa was still here, she would take care of this in just a matter of 3 pages
professor mgw
Smash Champion
SH B-reversal, so when marth goes 4 the fair(which of course he will) bam, the granade is faced towards him and you are shielding.
One time I got bored so I'd moon walkand wait 4 marth to come fair, put out a nade then I'd perfect shield, then follow up with a grab, snap his neck like twice, throw em forward then throw the granade quickly.
When recovering from the air I'll drop that nikita rocket quickly and stay on the side so even if I do get hit I gotta better chance of recovering, or I'd B-reversal in the air, throow the nade up, jump up z catch then airdodge(of course marth is gonna go for a hit so when I airdodge he will blow up).
One time I got bored so I'd moon walkand wait 4 marth to come fair, put out a nade then I'd perfect shield, then follow up with a grab, snap his neck like twice, throw em forward then throw the granade quickly.
When recovering from the air I'll drop that nikita rocket quickly and stay on the side so even if I do get hit I gotta better chance of recovering, or I'd B-reversal in the air, throow the nade up, jump up z catch then airdodge(of course marth is gonna go for a hit so when I airdodge he will blow up).
xLeafybug =D
Smash Master
Come on guys... You can't only rely on one person to help you improve. Yes, SuSa did an incredible amount for the Snake boards. Hell, he taught me a lot, and is pretty much the reason I kept going with Snake.
But that doesn't change the fact that he's left. He's moved on. It's up to the remainder of the Snake boards to step it up now, and to continue to improve Snake.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245025
if you ctrl f frame data you will find a section on it, but its pretty incomplete. Not too sure on how correct it is either.
From my experience, you can't punish a properly spaced f-ftilt on shield, but you can punish it if you powershield, I usually ftilt, you can prob dtilt/utilt too.
dawall250
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2007
- Messages
- 215
i have my doubts about utilting a ddd after powershielding his ftilt at max range. ddd's ftilt has more range than snake's utilt, no matter how ******** utilt's hitbox is.
anyhow, yume, don't hype me up haha, fatal's beaten me more often than i've beaten him, though i generally do lots better nowadays. and that was one game against bizkit, not even a set haha.
so yume wanted me to talk about what i can do to snakes after you get cged off stage. so most of the time, cg's will end with fthrows to do more damage. from there we can wall with bairs and fairs, and probably get at least a hit or two considering your recovery. these extra hits generally work best at mid percents. at low percent you can get back to the stage real quick using an airdodge/nade/aerial to protect yourself (though if you do so it invites opportunity to get grabbed again) and at high percent, it kinda sends you far out so then we have to air tech chase, and try to predict where you're gonna come down from your cypher. (i'll talk about what i can do when you're up in the air in a bit)
now the other option is to dthrow you off stage, or grab release (but i've never really seen/done grab release cept for lulz). this is where lotsa mindgamey things can happen. what are your options here?
you can jump straight to ledge. this is my favorite, cuz i can react to that, grab the ledge and you drop. if you don't see that coming, you're pretty much gimped/take a good bit of damage cuz you drop down and i can either grab your cypher or try to stage spike you, or screw with your c4 recovery.
you can jump and airdodge back onto the stage. this works relatively well, but do not get predictable with this. if i predict it, and its not hard to see coming, i can grab and chaingrab you again, or utilt if you're at death percents.
you can jump and nair/fair/bair. now this is not exactly the smartest thing to do unless i've got low shield. its pretty easy to see coming, and you'll land with lag.
you can jump back and cypher. probably the safest thing to do, though you'll need to c4 yourself to make it back, and with really good ddd's they can footstool the c4 (i'ma gonna work on that eventually)
so that's the most common scenarios i see when i get snake's offstage with the cg, you can ask about other things that you could try if you want.
now, the other big scenario, which often happens after a cg anyways. you're way up in the air, dropping from a cypher, and i'm down on the ground. what's gonna happen?
you try to drop down, and use a nade to protect you from aerials. this can include all kinda crazy gernade bouncing stuff. my main choices here are to either try to grab you on landing (which can be difficult with the bouncing stuff.) if you nadebounce too low, i can utilt you. also, don't think nades will keep me from aerialing you. i know the spacing well enough that i can bair you without exploding the nade.
you drop down and try to use an airdodge to get avoid whatever i have in store for you. works sometimes, but not often you gotta time that stuff craaazy well. you airdodge too early? bair can last till the end of the incinbility frames. you airdodge too late? i can bair you again before you can do anything. worst is, you trying to airdodge into me when i'm on the ground? if you're in kill percents, utilt will kill you. if you're not i can pivot grab that.
you can drop down and aerial. this is pretty effective when used sparingly, because your aerials don't really compete with bair, but it can be quite the surprise. (bair can be timed so it'll hit in between nair if you're just throwing nair out to protect yourself. snake's bair i think clashes with ddd's, so its not a bad option.) if i just stay on the ground you can get shieldgrabbed. utilt will also beat aerials.
again this is what i see the most often, if there are other things to do, then tell me, and i'll tell you what i think could go down.
anyhow, yume, don't hype me up haha, fatal's beaten me more often than i've beaten him, though i generally do lots better nowadays. and that was one game against bizkit, not even a set haha.
so yume wanted me to talk about what i can do to snakes after you get cged off stage. so most of the time, cg's will end with fthrows to do more damage. from there we can wall with bairs and fairs, and probably get at least a hit or two considering your recovery. these extra hits generally work best at mid percents. at low percent you can get back to the stage real quick using an airdodge/nade/aerial to protect yourself (though if you do so it invites opportunity to get grabbed again) and at high percent, it kinda sends you far out so then we have to air tech chase, and try to predict where you're gonna come down from your cypher. (i'll talk about what i can do when you're up in the air in a bit)
now the other option is to dthrow you off stage, or grab release (but i've never really seen/done grab release cept for lulz). this is where lotsa mindgamey things can happen. what are your options here?
you can jump straight to ledge. this is my favorite, cuz i can react to that, grab the ledge and you drop. if you don't see that coming, you're pretty much gimped/take a good bit of damage cuz you drop down and i can either grab your cypher or try to stage spike you, or screw with your c4 recovery.
you can jump and airdodge back onto the stage. this works relatively well, but do not get predictable with this. if i predict it, and its not hard to see coming, i can grab and chaingrab you again, or utilt if you're at death percents.
you can jump and nair/fair/bair. now this is not exactly the smartest thing to do unless i've got low shield. its pretty easy to see coming, and you'll land with lag.
you can jump back and cypher. probably the safest thing to do, though you'll need to c4 yourself to make it back, and with really good ddd's they can footstool the c4 (i'ma gonna work on that eventually)
so that's the most common scenarios i see when i get snake's offstage with the cg, you can ask about other things that you could try if you want.
now, the other big scenario, which often happens after a cg anyways. you're way up in the air, dropping from a cypher, and i'm down on the ground. what's gonna happen?
you try to drop down, and use a nade to protect you from aerials. this can include all kinda crazy gernade bouncing stuff. my main choices here are to either try to grab you on landing (which can be difficult with the bouncing stuff.) if you nadebounce too low, i can utilt you. also, don't think nades will keep me from aerialing you. i know the spacing well enough that i can bair you without exploding the nade.
you drop down and try to use an airdodge to get avoid whatever i have in store for you. works sometimes, but not often you gotta time that stuff craaazy well. you airdodge too early? bair can last till the end of the incinbility frames. you airdodge too late? i can bair you again before you can do anything. worst is, you trying to airdodge into me when i'm on the ground? if you're in kill percents, utilt will kill you. if you're not i can pivot grab that.
you can drop down and aerial. this is pretty effective when used sparingly, because your aerials don't really compete with bair, but it can be quite the surprise. (bair can be timed so it'll hit in between nair if you're just throwing nair out to protect yourself. snake's bair i think clashes with ddd's, so its not a bad option.) if i just stay on the ground you can get shieldgrabbed. utilt will also beat aerials.
again this is what i see the most often, if there are other things to do, then tell me, and i'll tell you what i think could go down.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
good read, Ima gather my thoughts on the best thing we can do against your methods, expect a long post tommorow or tuesday.
But since we're recovering and he's on the stage, DDD's always gonna have the advantage in that situation. But there are things we can do to minimize the damage.
But since we're recovering and he's on the stage, DDD's always gonna have the advantage in that situation. But there are things we can do to minimize the damage.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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Just to go off on a tangent, I really feel that DDD should end with a grab release or Dthrow most often. Fthrow allows Snake to DI it up gaining extra height. That extra height adds to his ability to recover on high. And I feel that's pretty bad compared to what you get with grab releases. Snake does worse below the stage hands down. Your more likely to edgeguard him when Snake is recovering from down there than Snake recovering from above. At lower percents, yeah, Fthrow doesn't give much DI.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
He fthrows me cuz hes nice like that and sandbags against me so I don't get 3 stocked everytime, hes that good lol.
/Dawall hype
/Dawall hype
Berserker.
:^)
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Done with the sypnosis of Math:
Marth can juggle Snake easily and Snake might eat 30-50% or more if you get caught. He can also edgeguard Snake well and he can easily punish Snake with a well-spaced F-air or D-tilt. Marth's D-tilt can easily poke Snake's shield so it can be problematic for Snake. Snake can't really do Oos against Marth since he's attacks are too fast so it's hard to punish. Due to Snake's fairly big size, fall weight and overall poor air games, Snake will have a definitely hard time against Marth. Though it's not completely hopeless though, Marth doesn't have a projectile so you should camp him HARD with nades.
Mix up everything! Your tactics, landing, recovery and use mindgames. The key to winning the match-up is mindgames, camping, mix ups. Marth's recovery however is easily punished and predicted and due to the long ending lag, Marth will be punished. Marth can combo Snake well and punish Snake easily. Don't use u-air in this, you will be punished badly. Basicly in this match up, you should NEVER approach and stay defensive and camp hard.
If Marth gets any closer to you he'll probably combo or juggle you. You need to keep Marth away from you even if it's impossible (<-- I doubt it). If you try getting back on the stage especially with cypher, Marth will probably d-air you which can be most likely sweetspotted or f-air you. Though we can mix it up with B-reversals, C4s etc. Marth seriously can space well especially with D-tilt or SH f-air and there's not much we can do about it.
Marth beats Snake at options so this is the part where you have to concentrate and be patient. Camp hard and avoid getting in juggles AT ALL COSTS. You have to find at LEAST an open spot to punish asides from punishing DS. A Marth doesn't really take nades as a big deal though but you can make that not true by camping hard. The things to do in this match up is:
- Avoid Marth
- Camp hard
- Mix up
If possible, the best way to win is camp hard, mix up and mindgames
Marth can juggle Snake easily and Snake might eat 30-50% or more if you get caught. He can also edgeguard Snake well and he can easily punish Snake with a well-spaced F-air or D-tilt. Marth's D-tilt can easily poke Snake's shield so it can be problematic for Snake. Snake can't really do Oos against Marth since he's attacks are too fast so it's hard to punish. Due to Snake's fairly big size, fall weight and overall poor air games, Snake will have a definitely hard time against Marth. Though it's not completely hopeless though, Marth doesn't have a projectile so you should camp him HARD with nades.
Mix up everything! Your tactics, landing, recovery and use mindgames. The key to winning the match-up is mindgames, camping, mix ups. Marth's recovery however is easily punished and predicted and due to the long ending lag, Marth will be punished. Marth can combo Snake well and punish Snake easily. Don't use u-air in this, you will be punished badly. Basicly in this match up, you should NEVER approach and stay defensive and camp hard.
If Marth gets any closer to you he'll probably combo or juggle you. You need to keep Marth away from you even if it's impossible (<-- I doubt it). If you try getting back on the stage especially with cypher, Marth will probably d-air you which can be most likely sweetspotted or f-air you. Though we can mix it up with B-reversals, C4s etc. Marth seriously can space well especially with D-tilt or SH f-air and there's not much we can do about it.
Marth beats Snake at options so this is the part where you have to concentrate and be patient. Camp hard and avoid getting in juggles AT ALL COSTS. You have to find at LEAST an open spot to punish asides from punishing DS. A Marth doesn't really take nades as a big deal though but you can make that not true by camping hard. The things to do in this match up is:
- Avoid Marth
- Camp hard
- Mix up
If possible, the best way to win is camp hard, mix up and mindgames
professor mgw
Smash Champion
I think that sums it up pretty well. 
dawall250
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2007
- Messages
- 215
as for the fthrow vs. dthrow, it really depends. with dthrow, if i predict wrong then you will end up with far less damage dealt to you than if i predicted wrong with an fthrow, cuz with fthrow, i will usually get extra hits in regardless, but with a dthrow you can make it back to the stage safely without another hit if i mess up. often i fthrow earlier on to see what snakes like to do to recover, and i dthrow at later percents. if i'm greedy i'll dthrow early to see if i can pull off the gimp.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
why shouldnt we uair Marth? his weakness is below him because of the lag of the dair, plus uair kills very well.
Also you shouldn't just say mix up and expect ppl to do it right, we should go a little more indepth about stuff we can actually do and when it will likely work. Of course if you always do the same thing you will be punished but some stuff works better than others pending on the situation.
For example,
- If you get knocked off stage pretty much horizontally because of bad DI and w/o your 2nd jump the best thing to do is C4 yourself 1st to gain some height. But dont DI towards the stage or Marth can hit/footstool you.
- When you get hit high up close to the upperblast zone up b to go as high as you can and drop your nikita and be safe from Marth punishing your lag, then stay close to the nikita as there will a constant falling hitbox close to you.
- When your trying to land and moving away from marth with your back facing him bair on landing, he cant shield fast enough if he just started a dash or is expecting you do airdodge/ b-reversal. And a sweetspot bair has enough hit stun to make it safe on shield, of course dont always do it or he will predict it and punish.
stuff like that.
Also you failed to mention that Marth's range > Snake's range in CQC, which is the most important part and what make this matchup bad, plus his sword is more disjointed that our feet is. So trying to jab or tilting would not work at all if he knows how to space. The only move we have on him is dash attack which is really punishible.
Snake isn't actually big, he's the same size as marth actually, its his tallness and slenderness that makes it bad because marth can aim for your head and be safe because of Snake's lack of horizontal size (If he tried the same strat against DDD he's gonna get shieldgrabbed).
You prob should make a note about shieldbreakers too because it works better against Snake than other chars because of how much Snake shields, esp when shield dropping nades.
I know I sound really mean right now, but I'm doing it cuz I love you. Im pointing out ways for you to improve the guides your writing because it seems like you really like writing them. =)
edit: at Dawall: wow thats so smart! No wonder your so good at this game, Atmosk got nothing on you!
/mad hype
Also you shouldn't just say mix up and expect ppl to do it right, we should go a little more indepth about stuff we can actually do and when it will likely work. Of course if you always do the same thing you will be punished but some stuff works better than others pending on the situation.
For example,
- If you get knocked off stage pretty much horizontally because of bad DI and w/o your 2nd jump the best thing to do is C4 yourself 1st to gain some height. But dont DI towards the stage or Marth can hit/footstool you.
- When you get hit high up close to the upperblast zone up b to go as high as you can and drop your nikita and be safe from Marth punishing your lag, then stay close to the nikita as there will a constant falling hitbox close to you.
- When your trying to land and moving away from marth with your back facing him bair on landing, he cant shield fast enough if he just started a dash or is expecting you do airdodge/ b-reversal. And a sweetspot bair has enough hit stun to make it safe on shield, of course dont always do it or he will predict it and punish.
stuff like that.
Also you failed to mention that Marth's range > Snake's range in CQC, which is the most important part and what make this matchup bad, plus his sword is more disjointed that our feet is. So trying to jab or tilting would not work at all if he knows how to space. The only move we have on him is dash attack which is really punishible.
Snake isn't actually big, he's the same size as marth actually, its his tallness and slenderness that makes it bad because marth can aim for your head and be safe because of Snake's lack of horizontal size (If he tried the same strat against DDD he's gonna get shieldgrabbed).
You prob should make a note about shieldbreakers too because it works better against Snake than other chars because of how much Snake shields, esp when shield dropping nades.
I know I sound really mean right now, but I'm doing it cuz I love you. Im pointing out ways for you to improve the guides your writing because it seems like you really like writing them. =)
edit: at Dawall: wow thats so smart! No wonder your so good at this game, Atmosk got nothing on you!
/mad hype
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
Marth walks faster than Snake moves through the air, he doesn't have to dash to follow you around...also pretty sure that you're wrong about bair being safe on the block, I can't remember ever having issues punishing it and that sounds really, really wrong.
sandwhale
Smash Journeyman
i'd say this is a pretty good example of a marth **** juggling snake (that sucks a bit XD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St4oLGMWOfU
my biggest mistake was paying more attention to what i was doing in the air than him, also should have tried b-reversal and up-b canceling but he really left me very little options and i actually find that going high in th air made it just easier to read me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St4oLGMWOfU
my biggest mistake was paying more attention to what i was doing in the air than him, also should have tried b-reversal and up-b canceling but he really left me very little options and i actually find that going high in th air made it just easier to read me.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
Okay I could be wrong on this one, I remember watching a vid when Ally landed with bair that had enough shield stun and pushed marth back far enough that he can't be punished. But timmy says im wrong so im wrong.
Edit:
But that doesnt mean dont bair, it is still a great landing move esp when moving away from marth. just dont spam it.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
So I just got ***** by Dawall's DDD again, didnt win a single time today. =/
I'm just going to say Snake vs. DDD is hopeless, 100-0 matchup, gg cp?
I'm just going to say Snake vs. DDD is hopeless, 100-0 matchup, gg cp?
i think marth's even.
stay away from the ledge. you should be camping just far enough away from it so that a dtilt wont knock you off it. once youre off the edge, coming back is really hard. but on the stage, snake wins. dash attack punishes any lag despite spacing, nades force an approach, and pivot grab beats everything he does (with the right timing and spacing). just stay on the ground, cause getting back is really difficult. and try not to recover into him O_o
i think d3 is lol.
70:30 imo. cant punish a grab with even a jab. he can shield grab everything you do regardless of spacing. can d3cide out of cg at almost 100% efficiency. proper edgeguarding should mean one grab equals 80% at low percents. or probably death at high percents. hes really stupid. cp ics and pwn his ***.
stay away from the ledge. you should be camping just far enough away from it so that a dtilt wont knock you off it. once youre off the edge, coming back is really hard. but on the stage, snake wins. dash attack punishes any lag despite spacing, nades force an approach, and pivot grab beats everything he does (with the right timing and spacing). just stay on the ground, cause getting back is really difficult. and try not to recover into him O_o
i think d3 is lol.
70:30 imo. cant punish a grab with even a jab. he can shield grab everything you do regardless of spacing. can d3cide out of cg at almost 100% efficiency. proper edgeguarding should mean one grab equals 80% at low percents. or probably death at high percents. hes really stupid. cp ics and pwn his ***.
dawall250
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2007
- Messages
- 215
so i wish ddd had a near 100% efficiency on a dddcide from a chaingrab, but alas, it is not true. also, 70-30 is absolutely preposterous. 60-40 is more like it. i could see 55-45 on a stage that works well for snake. camping hard is rather effective i'll have to say, approaching is a pain. however, ddds can work through that though by walking and powershielding everything. our standing grab range beats everything you got. eventually you will be pressured to the edge. what are you gonna do then? jump over me? with your air game? eh. try to get me away with tilts? get shieldgrabbed. your mortarslide is somewhat reliable i suppose. but i have been getting better at shieldgrabbing that, and besides that i can ftilt/dtilt it too.
again. not 70-30, snake has no matchup that bad. i could see it being 60-40 though. snake can make it difficult to pull off the grab though.
again. not 70-30, snake has no matchup that bad. i could see it being 60-40 though. snake can make it difficult to pull off the grab though.
dawall250
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2007
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yeah i've come across a snake who liked to camp on smashville's platform, it is quite the pain to get him off. but what about on other stages? admittedly, if we strike smashville, the game could end up on either yoshi's or lylat's, which makes cging a bit harder. any other neutral you snakes love?
When we had PS1 as our 5th neutral I much preferred that. Terrain really jacked up CGs.
Now I most prefer Lylat against Dedede.The tilting sometimes saves my hide, and all the random nades and mines become harder to see.
I refuse to go on FD.
I usually counterpick Dededes with Pikachu though. Easier to camp/run away, he can't be CG'd, and thunder ***** up-b.
Now I most prefer Lylat against Dedede.The tilting sometimes saves my hide, and all the random nades and mines become harder to see.
I refuse to go on FD.
I usually counterpick Dededes with Pikachu though. Easier to camp/run away, he can't be CG'd, and thunder ***** up-b.
-Ran
Smash Master
Against D3 you need to not fight by stock, but by percent. Pick stages with multiple platforms so that you can constantly avoid the grabs. As dumb as this sounds, you NEED to make D3 believe that your Down throw is better than his down throw chain grab. If you watch any high end videos of Snake vs D3, if the Snake wins it's because he pulled off an incredibly sexy down throw tech chase early on. D3 isn't horribly hard to tech chase either, since you can jab to grab him if he rolls backwards, so then it's only a matter of roll away/get up attack for him.
The easiest solution to this match up is not to get grab. If d3 cannot grab you, he cannot mount damage, or edge guard you. So how do you not get grabbed? Part of it always having a grenade in hand, but the truth is that you need to practice against a d3 enough to learn his grab range BETTER than him. If you can bait the grab, knowing that you are safe, you can punish D3 with a F-tilt, or a throw of your own. This means that in order to truly beat D3, you need to know his grab. If d3 is posturing himself to Pivot Grab, there's nothing on the ground that you can do to out range him.
This match up is HARD. Most Snakes don't have anywhere near the match up experience they need in this fight to succeed because playing against a d3 tends to leave people with a sour taste in their mouth so they don't pursue the match up often.
The only way Snake can win this match up is if D3 is approaching him. If D3 is approaching, he cannot pivot grab. If he cannot pivot grab, you can space your F-Tilt to be safe on the last hit which applies pressure to his shield so that there's a chance you can shield poke him later. We should do everything in our power to find various shenanigans early on that we can do to D3 to create a large enough gap in percentages to where D3 MUST approach.
D3 with the lead = D3 shielding/pivot grabbing everything.
D3 without the lead = D3 walking/running to you.
If you lose the first match against D3, you'll probably lose the set. There are too many counter-picks that he can do better against you on for the third match.
The easiest solution to this match up is not to get grab. If d3 cannot grab you, he cannot mount damage, or edge guard you. So how do you not get grabbed? Part of it always having a grenade in hand, but the truth is that you need to practice against a d3 enough to learn his grab range BETTER than him. If you can bait the grab, knowing that you are safe, you can punish D3 with a F-tilt, or a throw of your own. This means that in order to truly beat D3, you need to know his grab. If d3 is posturing himself to Pivot Grab, there's nothing on the ground that you can do to out range him.
This match up is HARD. Most Snakes don't have anywhere near the match up experience they need in this fight to succeed because playing against a d3 tends to leave people with a sour taste in their mouth so they don't pursue the match up often.
The only way Snake can win this match up is if D3 is approaching him. If D3 is approaching, he cannot pivot grab. If he cannot pivot grab, you can space your F-Tilt to be safe on the last hit which applies pressure to his shield so that there's a chance you can shield poke him later. We should do everything in our power to find various shenanigans early on that we can do to D3 to create a large enough gap in percentages to where D3 MUST approach.
D3 with the lead = D3 shielding/pivot grabbing everything.
D3 without the lead = D3 walking/running to you.
If you lose the first match against D3, you'll probably lose the set. There are too many counter-picks that he can do better against you on for the third match.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
yeah she does ^.^
I need to get my spacing better, I'm getting grabbed wayyy to much. I think the optimal spacing is DDD's ftilt length. Any closer and your gonna get grabbed.
I need to get my spacing better, I'm getting grabbed wayyy to much. I think the optimal spacing is DDD's ftilt length. Any closer and your gonna get grabbed.
correct me if im wrong, but if d3 shields the first hit of ftilt (or even worse, powershields it), then his grab is guaranteed. our favourite spacing tool isnt really safe in this mu. and to mention grab super armour...
@dawall: to sum up your post, d3 approaches slowly, getting hit a few times and whatever, but once he gets to snake, snake will get grabbed. but its only 60:40 or 55:45. i pretty sure basically you said we dont have options but its a fairly even mu. lol.
@dawall: to sum up your post, d3 approaches slowly, getting hit a few times and whatever, but once he gets to snake, snake will get grabbed. but its only 60:40 or 55:45. i pretty sure basically you said we dont have options but its a fairly even mu. lol.
-Ran
Smash Master
I'm a guy.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
Yeah basically ftilt sucks in this matchup. Use it just to punish. And like Ran said, if we get the lead and force DDD to approach then we have a much better shot at beating him.
k
Berserker.
:^)
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 18,990
K? That's all what you say after how many times WE called her I mean him girl (Sorry Ran O_O)
-Ran
Smash Master
Jab is one of the best moves in this match up. With a frame 3 hitbox, if you're ever expecting Grab [not shield grab] you should Jab [not spot dodge]. It's crucial to realize that D3 is one of the few characters in the game that cannot jab [or anything] to grab and so he must utilize either stand alone grabs or shield grab. However, if you hit with a Jab you can set up to throw, F-Tilt, etc.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
actually jab to ftilt or grab isnt that same, because if he DI back you'll wiff the grab and he'll grab you back, same with ftilt just that he can powershield and grab.
-Ran
Smash Master
D3 is fat. If you Jab cancel it, you can do it fine.
not to mention ftilt is 4 frames, grab is 8...
dawall250
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2007
- Messages
- 215
the reason why its not more difficult than a 60-40 matchup is exactly what ran said, snake can make it really difficult for ddd to grab him. as for grabbing ftilt, if i powershield the first hit, i will get the grab. if not, and you hit my shield with the second ftilt, i'm not so sure i can pull off the grab, i'll have to check on it. generally though, if i shield the first hit, i can spotdodge the next one, and then we get our grab.
if we're going over what snake can do to wreck ddd, well dthrow tech chasing is never fun for ddd. its harder for ddd to get out of snake's multihit aerials should he get caught in them. snake can punish ddd's pokes quite well (ftilt and dtilt) with mortar slides and the such. snake forcing the ddd to approach always sucks, even if i say walk toward and powershield everything, it's not as easy to do. you have to use a mix of powershields, waddles, and roll backs and spotdodges to be able to approach while trying to minimizing damage because of the sheer amount of ways snake can throw/cook his nades and placement of c4. and if snake manages to get to the other side anyways, you have to go through that process all over again. also, snake is able to juggle ddd, not as effectively, but you can rack up a good bit of damage by grabbing landing frames and the such.
if we're going over what snake can do to wreck ddd, well dthrow tech chasing is never fun for ddd. its harder for ddd to get out of snake's multihit aerials should he get caught in them. snake can punish ddd's pokes quite well (ftilt and dtilt) with mortar slides and the such. snake forcing the ddd to approach always sucks, even if i say walk toward and powershield everything, it's not as easy to do. you have to use a mix of powershields, waddles, and roll backs and spotdodges to be able to approach while trying to minimizing damage because of the sheer amount of ways snake can throw/cook his nades and placement of c4. and if snake manages to get to the other side anyways, you have to go through that process all over again. also, snake is able to juggle ddd, not as effectively, but you can rack up a good bit of damage by grabbing landing frames and the such.