Operation: Improve Solid Snake (DDD)

[Berserker.]

We should go in-depth with Marth's F-air

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Quality of the conversation depends upon the effort of the postie. I want a quality discussion as well Breezy. And I encourage you to pitch in quickly if you feel the conversation is failing. Also, some generalization is often times needed to summarize a larger discussion. Read a couple of my posts earlier and I point out when nades appear to be most effective vs when they aren't. I dont agree with simply using more nades. Needs explanition of when.

 

[Berserker.]

Hey Xeylo, why don't we discuss each of Marth's moves and how to deal with it?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

pointless to look at all of them. all but grabbing, spaced dtilt fair and nair are countered by sheilding. hit by dash attack, ftilt or jab just drop shield and punish with snakes ftilt or dash attack. we have the advantage. we do not on get advantages on marths dtilt fair and nair. they are safe on block... for now

 

[Berserker.]

How about u-air and B-air?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

breez, the reason we're lacking quality discussion is because we're lacking top Snakes being active and posting here, if most of the discussion is between me, Xeylode, and Berserker then this is prob the best we can do. So until top Snakes such as Ally and Razer start contributing we prob wont get very far. =/

 

[Berserker.]

Well I can't be stupid to do this but you guys keep discussing, I'll try PMing Ally or you do it Yume

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

bair doesnt auto cancel, but on sh has enough lag to punish. fh not sure. uair not sure i have never playeda marth crazy to try it. either way fair is just better to use. its the main problem. i do have an idea that could have the choices to punish everything.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Marth can use fast falling upair to set up Snake for combos at low damage, it has great range and it hits you at the right angle for follow-ups, I think uair is a great move for Marth to use vs. Snake.

 

[Berserker.]

U-air is good juggler but yeah f-air is everything.

This requires very dead timing of nade countering.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

my idea is face marth backwards using with a nade pulled not shield dropped yet. in theory this method has access to options that can avoid and puinsh anything marth does

 

[Berserker.]

That's a good idea. Back throwing nades on Marth's attacks. If he catches it, we can trip it, if he hits the nade, the nade will blow up on it. Marth's f-throw-->f-smash is deadly, dealing with punishment nades and mines are everything in this match up. Edgeguaring Marth is VERY EFFECTIVE though it requires patience. Best way to push Marth off stage (Not gonna blow up yet) is maybe an F-tilt or SH B-air (The sweetspot is on the head of Snake) then edgeguard Marth with nades or nikitas

 

[Zajice]

The sweetspot for bair is when it first comes out. Not his head. The hitbox just extends up to his head.


And remember that Marth's recovery is pretty predictable. He'll always come up from that same spot to grab the ledge, or land right above it to avoid getting ledge hogged. Just put an explosive right by the edge and then grab the ledge right before he up-b's.

If he can't get on stage, good. If he lands on the stage, then he goes boom.

 

[Berserker.]

Shield breaker hit frames: 19-22 -- Spot dodging invincibility frames: 2-22 (Duration 34)
Shield breaker ending lag: 23-53 (30)--- B-Roll invincibility frames: 7-21 (36 duration)
F-Roll invincibility frames: 9-19 (34 duration)

Moves used to punish shield breaker:
Jab hit frames: 3-4 (It is 27 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also use after jab the other 2 jabs or a followed up f-tilt
F-tilt 1 hit frames: 4-5 (It is 25 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also add the 2nd hit of f-tilt
D-tilt hit frames: 6-8 (It is 22 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)
U-tilt hit frames: 6-13 (It is 17 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)<- This should be used if Marth is at 100% above

Marth's moves that can punish rolls:
-Additional notes that Marth runs fast
Dash attack: (Unknown frames but it can punish well)
Fair hit frames: 4-8 (34 duration) *Additional SHFF advantage: -4
About f-air marth can dash--> SH Fair--> Fastfall

He can actually punish Marth's U-smash, even though he's on a platform. It's easy to see it coming so you can shield it, seriously. Camping Marth is the best bet here and mixing up is good too. If you wanna approach Marth you can shield drop a nade then get it approach Marth SH throw it downwards pull out a nade shield then BOOM.

Again....

Problem: Juggles
Marth's juggling ability is tremendous so Snake must be careful of Marth. When you are in a middle of a juggling phase, you must quickly pullout a nade and soft throw, shift to the direction to Snake's back then soft throw the nade. Marth's air attacks might hit the grenade causing the grenade to explode on him but maybe it has some chances of hitting you but if Marth manages to catch it. Quickly fastfall then pull out a nade then shield drop, it will strip then explode on Marth. While doing the strip on Marth you can additionally throw the dropped grenade to Marth to extend the hitbox.

What to do in the match up?
Nade camping is your best bet. Do not approach Marth! You'll just get yourself juggled. To build a heavy defense you must put 2 mines infront of you then behind your mines start camping so when the opponent goes near your mines, activate the first mine causing the 2 mines to explode due to the remore mine being beside the C4. You shouldn't use the same tactic all over again. You have to mix up your tactics to confuse your opponent and mindgames.

And again...

Throwing nades off-stage is dependant. If you are near falling to death, throw one nade but if you far throw 2. If Marth tries using f-air to edgeguard, grenades will block him so he'll probably hit the nade then it will explode on him. If he tries jumping over the nades to attack you, who cares -_- you can fastfall then cypher

.. and also b-reversals are good mix ups

Marth's tilts.... powersield then punish except D-tilt but you can pull out a nade then let Marth hit you then nade will drop from you then you jump away throw annother nade. It's not that simple to get past nades you know. About Marth's tilts again, when you hear the sword sound quickly shield then punish this is where ears are important at. F-tilt has some start-up so you can shield then punish as for U-tilt, it's more difficult though it can be powershielded once you hear the sword swipe sound, shield quickly then punish. D-tilt was clarified already. His air games, soft-throw maybe 1 or 2 times depending on the situation or how far are you from Marth then Jump away. DB, I don't know how to deal with that but all I know is to DI it.

Not falling on the platform Nic and yeah SV is good too

So the changes are this:
- No throwing grenades off-stage
- SV is good against Marth
- Pressure can be dealed by hard camping
- Camp hard
- Mind games
- Spam nades
- Take advantage of Marth having no projectiels
- Don't approach
- SB can be spot dodged actually but it requires precise timing
- Punishing in the right time is strictly needed
- Mix up and variety is important here

Many Marth mains in general are not really worried about the things [nades] anymore.
Your head is always exposed (not protected by a nade), and our aerials are made to hit tall things on their noggins. It's lucky Snake is reasonably slender, so aiming for his head wouldn't be a liability like against Dedede.

Running with Nades backwards can still be reasonably safe with fair (but harder), I would generally start landing with tippered nairs in this case, and dancing blade any of your next movements (i.e. you can only roll, or shield and pivot grab). Include the shield decay of two hits of nair and you're suddenly in easy shield poke territory.

When recovering against Marth you should try to get as high as possible, I say use your C4 wisely and never leave it on the stage when your cyphering offstage, thats just asking for death. If you get hit off stage blow it up IMMEDIATELY. A good strategy to do is that if your hit off horizontally, C4 yourself immediately so that you will be above marth and in a better position, also becareful when using cypher, aim it so that your sure that marth can't hit you in the startup lag. If your hit up one of the best things to do is to cypher as high as you can and drop a nikita, then fall with the nikita so that youll have a hitbox protecting you.

When trying to land, watch Marth to see if he will wait for you to land or go up and attack you. If hes trying to attack you try to fast fall through his aerials or nade counter, but if he spaces well he can hit you w/o hitting the nade or even avoid the explosion. If he's trying to catch you on landing, judge your horizontal position relative to his and either keep moving forward if hes behind you or C4 -reversal if hes in front. On landing, Snake basically have 3 options, nade/nade-reversal, airdodge, bair. You want your back to be facing him because a sweet spot bair is actually safe on shield because of the shield stun. But if you miss you will be punished. I say bair is your best move but use it wisely, nade pull is good too but he can just grab you, so yeah, marth has way more options than Snake on this one.

With CQC Marth dominates Snake, so make sure to always have nades near you, dont be predictable in camping, as he can manuver through your nades, but always mix it up.

I said this earlier but, to temporarily shut down SH Spaced Fairs.....simply Close Throw a Nade. This give Snake some time to move away from Marth and set something up....or just "take a breather".
Anti juggles- Well Snake has a a lot of this.....people think they can simply juggle Snake has lots of ways to get around this.
Air dodging-The easiest way to Anti-juggle. That probably is not the best Anti juggle option.
C4- On the way down from Cypher use your C4 defensively. Simply just let it drop it and....stay close to it on the rest of the way down.
Grenades- Grenades are a great way to Anti-juggle. Let me explain, all of us know how to S.D.I. (excluding beginners) we'll aim for either top left or top right corners of the stage...so this way we have a lot of time to throw grenades. There's a couple different ways to do this....(I mean throw grenades).
-You can just throw them out normally and recover immediately after....this way when you decide to let go of your Cypher the grenades will explode leaving the area you want to land on "open".
-The next way is...to pull a grenade after you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed........pull a grenade and just hold it and when you get to about ground level throw it, this will (obviously) cook the grenade and if anyone tries to appraoch the Nade will stop them by blowing-up in there face.
- After you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed....let yourslef fall and as soon ther approach... Cypher and go to the top of the screen (where you start to get damage) let go of your Cypher, then quickly Close throw a Nade or 2 on the way down.....let them fall and on the way down "follow them" down. This will create a wall very close to where you want to land....making very hard to approach Snake. And if you do approach the Nade will stop almost all juggles.
- This one is very simple..... after you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed....pull a grenade and just hold it till you reach the ground....and also if you land w/ a grenade in you hand Snake's shield comes out 2 Frames faster. This will obviously stop juggles cause if they try hit you the grenade will blow up as soon as Snake gets hit.
-Then there the mixture of 2- For this drop a C4 in one direction and when you get close to your opponent quickly Reversal B a grenade. This will give Snake Momentum on the opposite direction he was falling.
-Then there's landing/grabing the edge using Aerials.
N-air- this is as simple as it sound use Nair (be sure to space it correctly) on your way down. They get hit by one of the hits of Nair and there you have it. There's also Space Nair to where all hits come out and it stop by the edge so Snake automatically grabs the edge after he finishes Nair.
Bair- Probably the easiest of all anti juggle Techniques and the one beginner Snakes luv to use. When you get close the opponent, who's trying to Juggle you, just use Bair or Bair Fast fall.

Ohhh....one more thing.
Always and I mean always MIX UP how you land/Anti-Juggle

Punishing Marth's recovery:
Marth's recovery is very predictable. You can punish it easily especially with F-smash

my idea is face marth backwards using with a nade pulled not shield dropped yet. in theory this method has access to options that can avoid and puinsh anything marth does

Marth's f-throw-->f-smash is deadly, dealing with punishment nades and mines are everything in this match up. Edgeguaring Marth is VERY EFFECTIVE though it requires patience. Best way to push Marth off stage (Not gonna blow up yet) is maybe an F-tilt or SH B-air (The sweetspot is on the head of Snake initiating) then edgeguard Marth with nades or nikitas

Problems:
Speed- Marth is a fast runner + the fastest walker in Brawl, I'm thinking to just walk instead of running with Snake. Why? So we can let Marth pressure us and we can time punishment. I say grenade countering is best IMO

Air games- Ignore Marth's air games, just stay on ground and don't let him SH U-air or U-tilt you. Learn to powershield then punish

Advantages:
KOs- Marth relies only on edgeguard KOs. You can KO him with a fresh U-tilt when he's at around 90-100%.

Poor recovery- Marth's recovery isn't good. You can even punish it with F-smash.

Final D - Marth can struggle a bit handling some 'camp' (mostly dash atttack/dacus stuff, but it isn't too bad). Juggles reasonably well. Can't vary landings himself though.
Battlefield - Can be -really- annoying against Snake lopping grenades and using dash attacks properly. Really, really really annoying.
Yoshi's Island - Marth gets ***** (ive said this)
Smashville - Pretty good =)
Pkmn Stadium - Not bad for Snake, when Marth bans halberd, this or Frigate is probably one of their best CPs.
Lylat - I've had good experiences against Snake on this stage, but honestly haven't played a Snake on it in a long long time (I havent played it since I thought Snake ***** Marth `-`)

Camp against it:
For certain parts if Marth's fair will hit the grenade, the grenade will explode on him but if Marth catches the grenade with f-air you can strip the grenade. You can try insta-throwing grenades against Marth.

Grenades:
You should pull out a nade then go towards Marth then shield, mix up your movement while going to Marth like go forward, backward then so on until you reach Marth. You can pull out a nade then throw it behind Marth then strong throw the second nade then pick up the second nade then go to Marth then shield

He outranges everything you can do except for dash attack, which is extremely punishable.
His shieldbreaker owns Snake, as Snakes like to shield/shield drop nades, so be very careful of shieldbreakers, it is not safe to shield against Marth.
The only way to beat Marth is to camp him, cook your nades, and keep them close to you, he will get hit by them as he has to get close to attack you.
Marth is extremely good at juggling, if he hits you up, make it your 1st priority to land. Make sure to always mix up how you land, as marth is really good at hitting you back up again, I fail in this situation, so I cant really help all that much. I'm suggisting that at higher up try to fastfall airdodge through his aerieals, as you can land before he does, closer to the ground try to grenade/grenade reversal and move towards marth so that he also gets hit by the nade.
When recovering, keep your distance from marth/the stage, marth can just steal your C4 by letting you sticky him if your too close (maybe you can footstool in that situation?).do extra C4 jumps if neccesary, if you C4 recovery at the bottom, DI away from the stage because he will try to go for the footstool.

Ally's grenade work is vastly superior in the first one compared to the second one. He also refuses to try CQC as much. Prefering to always be on the defence by spacing away, and staying in the shield. With grenades no less. He will mix it up too.

Utilt, Ftilt, Jab, all are not used often at all. In a way, he nade spams, but smartly. That sort of solves the spacing issue by always make sure Marth tries to follow you where you can punish mistakes.

You should avoid using the same tactics you do because it starts getting predictable. This match up requires lots of dangerous mindgames and wise mix-ups/variety. You have to know all the possible tactics of Marth such as the moves he use in different phases such as staying defensive, land chasing, offensive etc.

Dealing w/ juggling is very difficult. No, do not take Marth to Smashville...this stage is in his favor....the moving platform is enough for him to get around Nades and almost any other form of spacing w/ explosives. When recovering we want to cook and throw grenades when we're very high up. other wise just throw grenades for pressure. On the way down we have C4 to help protect us....and Reversal-b is a great way to shut down almost all forms of Marth trying to juggle us. There is also simple things like Bair and spacing Nair to get all hits out just so you can land safely or safely grab the edge.

In this MU.......VARY nade....or a simple dash grab, pivot grab, Fair, or sometime even a DB.....will cut right through our spacing.

The stage and it's geography have ALOT....and I mean ALOT...to do w/ Snake v. Marth. I do no some things from watching MikeHAZE v. Ally @ both Activegamers and EVO. First and foremost, cook and keep grenades close at all timz, Obviously. The SH spaced Fair approaches can be temporarily shut down by pullin a grenade and close throwing it and just backing up a few steps.

And lastly MIX UP

 

[Zajice]

A note about being juggled. Sometimes wavebouncing C4 is better than wavebouncing nades. A nade gives the opponent more time to hit you. You can air dodge a lot sooner with a C4.

Sometimes if the opponent is greedy while trying to juggle, wavebouncing a C4 might lead to a free aerial, while wavebouncing a nade would just let you get away.

Also, the falling C4 will make them hesitate to chase after you on the way down.


And yes, you should camp a lot in this matchup. Marth doesn't have a projectile after all. But he does have reliable approach methods. Limit those methods the best you can, and if you can grab him, do so. Marth is pretty easy to tech chase, I think.

Marth's tilts.... powersield then punish except D-tilt but you can pull out a nade then let Marth hit you then nade will drop from you then you jump away throw annother nade. It's not that simple to get past nades you know. About Marth's tilts again, when you hear the sword sound quickly shield then punish this is where ears are important at. F-tilt has some start-up so you can shield then punish as for U-tilt, it's more difficult though it can be powershielded once you hear the sword swipe sound, shield quickly then punish. D-tilt was clarified already. His air games, soft-throw maybe 1 or 2 times depending on the situation or how far are you from Marth then Jump away. DB, I don't know how to deal with that but all I know is to DI it.

As for Marth's tilts, they're hard to punish if spaced correctly. Don't assume you get a free hit just by blocking a tilt.

Punishing Marth's recovery:
Marth's recovery is very predictable. You can punish it easily especially with F-smash

You shouldn't rely on F-smash to punish Marth's recovery. If they up-b at a weird time, like above the stage or at just the right distance where they still have to DI forward to grab the ledge, go for it, but you have better options than f-smash to punish up-b with.

Speed- Marth is a fast runner + the fastest walker in Brawl, I'm thinking to just walk instead of running with Snake. Why? So we can let Marth pressure us and we can time punishment. I say grenade countering is best IMO

If you're playing Snake, you should be walking the majority of the time in every match, not just Marth. Walking allows for a lot more options than dashing.

Advantages:
KOs- Marth relies only on edgeguard KOs. You can KO him with a fresh U-tilt when he's at around 90-100%.

Marth doesn't just rely on edgeguard KOs. A simple tipper f-smash can kill Snake pretty early considering how long he lives normally.

And Marth doesn't die that early from up tilt, assuming they can DI at all.

 

[Berserker.]

Should we start the write up yet Xeylo?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

i cannot type anythingyet psp has text limit.let me better explain what imeant. by facing away from marth with nade held marth can no longer easily space us. he might hit the nade thus taking damage. he does nothing we have a cook nade ready to throw at him. grabbing us? spot dodge or roll. dtilt on shield? i THINK OoS bair has enough range to hit marth on his dtilt. fh fair could be followed from this i think. still there are a lot of problems with this erratic method. its just an theory i am trying out.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm agreeing with you on D-tilt because it's flat and Snake's body is over Mart's D-tilt so Snake will kick Marth's face

 

[Nic64]

by facing away from marth with nade held marth can no longer easily space us.

I don't think it changes that much, whacking you in the face or stabbing your ankles still works, and just walking up behind you for that matter, can't nade grab or anything.

he does nothing we have a cook nade ready to throw at him.

If the Marth can count to 3 this has limited affect on the game if you're only going to use one grenade at a time. Facing the wrong direction this also limits you, it doesn't take much to see that Snake needs to shield drop the nade in order to throw it from this position, Marth can just wait for him.

dtilt on shield? i THINK OoS bair has enough range to hit marth on his dtilt.

The range doesn't really matter, the attack puts Snake in a frame trap where his bair shouldn't be a workable response. In fact aside from shield grabbing it when badly spaced Snake shouldn't be able to punish dtilt OOS at all from what I can see(well if you have a nade in your hand you can toss it, IIRC throwing items OOS is like 3 frames, but that's not really punishing since you'll take damage too).

still there are a lot of problems with this erratic method. its just an theory i am trying out.

I think it's a good mixup but it's not a solid form of defense that you should rely on exclusively or even close to it, it has holes that can be exploited and ultimately limits your options tremendously.

In general I would say don't expect to punish Marth OOS a ton as Snake, he has a lot of safe attacks where upon shielding you're actually better off just running away. Whiffed attacks > dash attack is generally more reliable for you IMO

 

[Berserker.]

What nic said up there, Yes he's right. Marth's attacks are too fast especially if f-air, n-air, u-air, b-air and d-air is short hopped so it has minimal lag. So mix up punishment and nades

 

[Yumewomiteru]

marth doesnt have to autocancel his aerials for them to be effective, he can land with uair,fair, and nair and sometimes bair and it will still work very well because of the no/small lag on landing.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm saying SH makes it have more minimal lag (-4 advantage)

 

[Yumewomiteru]

it does, but landing aerials makes them hit better, as the hitboxes are lower.

 

[Berserker.]

So to solve that, nade camping or just run away right like what xeylo said?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

yes nade camp is our best strat.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Having a computer again is nice

I don't think it changes that much, whacking you in the face or stabbing your ankles still works, and just walking up behind you for that matter, can't nade grab or anything.

In the Marth can count to 3 this has limited affect on the game if you're only going to use one grenade at a time. Facing the wrong direction this also limits you, it doesn't take much to see that Snake needs to shield drop the nade in order to throw it from this position, Marth can just wait for him.

The range doesn't really matter, the attack puts Snake in a frame trap where his bair shouldn't be a workable response. In fact aside from shield grabbing it when badly spaced Snake shouldn't be able to punish dtilt OOS at all from what I can see(well if you have a nade in your hand you can toss it, IIRC throwing items OOS is like 3 frames, but that's not really punishing since you'll take damage too).

I think it's a good mixup but it's not a solid form of defense that you should rely on exclusively or even close to it, it has holes that can be exploited and ultimately limits your options tremendously.

In general I would say don't expect to punish Marth OOS a ton as Snake, he has a lot of safe attacks where upon shielding you're actually better off just running away. Whiffed attacks > dash attack is generally more reliable for you IMO

Yeah, after I gave this idea some thought on the way home today I pretty much came to the same conclusions you did.

Pretty much the reason I suggested this was first as a solution to FH Fair. It's been mentioned way too often Snake cannot do anything against it. OoS Bair I originally thought would have excellent range to hit Marth on FH Retreating Fair. Marth gets a -25 frame advantage from doing that and snake's Bair hits on Frame 7 and given that jumping gets rid of shield dropping frames. This means it hits well within that period to punish Marth.

However, I have not tested this due to being unable to have someone not FH Fair retreating on my shield -_- But, the other reason was due to a number of problems. Why the heck would be facing Marth backwards to begin with. Then I added on the idea that Snake could possibly stay that whole way during the match with grenades held. As I said before, any other normal attack would cause it to explode. Dtilt I thought was punished by OoS SH Bair. Grabbing by spot dodging.

Now for the problems mentioned. It's incrediably hard to react to are predict if Marth does not have to worry about getting hit. And OoS Bair actually hits on frame 14 instead of frame 7. I forgot that jumping adds 7 frames. Dtilt beats out this option entirely. Don't need anything else.

Darn Fair and Dtilt for being so safe.

Really, I cannot come up with any other thoughts to this apart from wall with your nades to keep marth at bay. You start getting Dtilt poked at the edge of the stage you have pretty much no options left ;_;

Alright, I'm going to start the write-up. I'll post it, you guys give me a bit of feedback if you find it deviates from the discussion. 8 page discussion lol

 

[Berserker.]

Okay so what do you think will be next?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

D dd

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Short short verison. The only areas we discussed for sure gave snake problems were juggling/edgeguarding and spacing with two moves in particular: Fair, Dtilt.

All other things discussed were mostly disproven through the use of reasoning, inadequate information to back it (do stages really help make a difference in recovery?), or frame data. It's surprising how much of Marths' ground game is punishable. Shielding with spot dodge reaction to Ftilt or Dash attack helps avoid nearly all of Marth's approaches and punish them. That leaves only Dtilt and Fair the most reliable. Of which we had no viable solutions to directly punish.

So, the write-up is on OP. Yeah, I'm going with either DDD or Olimar next. Doing the whole hat picking thing to decide since I cannot.

 

[Berserker.]

I think DDD is harder so DDD next.

I'll try reading the match up guide of DDD boards

 

[Zajice]

Both matchups consist of the "don't get grabbed" strategy.

 

[Berserker.]

Actually there is a way to make this match-up even though you guys will say "This doesn't make sense" but it does wanna know it?

This is about Marth or DDD

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Alright, we are stuck with King DDD this time.

The most obvious thing is that King DDD has a made defensive game. If he can bait you into trying to attack his shield or grab him when he spot dodges you get grabbed -> CG -> edgeguarded. GG CP?

To deal with edgeguarding your stuck in an awful position. In the short run trying to get on stage is priority and doing so with a variety of mix-ups is really the only solution. CG is impossible to escape, however, you can escape with nades if you grab the higher port priority. But, since pulling a nade can be predicted, shield/roll immediately when you see them not grab you.

Avoiding getting grabbed I see being easily solved through the usage of simply not trying to attack him first. Camp, let him make the first move, punish.

 

[Berserker.]

Ehhh, I'll take that as a no -_-

Well I won't be with you on this since I don't have much experience. I'll just try reading DDD match -up and help a bit

 

[o-Serin-o]

Lol camp.

Just camp.

Hard.

Like til you see a bair and leave the forest.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

My friend and practice partner mains DDD so I know this matchup well. I say we should focus on things we can do when recovering after he d-throws/f-throws us off the stage, what to do when he chaingrab us, and how to avoid getting grabbed.

Just because of how good DDD's grab is, it is impossible to not get grabbed by him, my friend (DaWall) has gotten grabs consistently off top Snakes in my area (Fatal and Bizkit) and have beaten them. So "dont get grabbed" doesnt work that well here.

I can ask him to drop by and say some stuff about the matchup, and when I finish my paper I can go indepth into the matchup.

One thing I want to say is that this matchup is really gay, I get owned by his Dedede and its def not 45-55.

EDIT: 1st someone write up a complete synopsis of our discussion on Marth, gogogogogo

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Question. Anyone got the location of DDD frame data? I want to see what it is on Ftilt? I outranges us for sure, but I want to say that on shield we can drop shield and punish with Ftilt or if not that Dash attack.

 

[Berserker.]

Here it is... full of copy pastes -_-' :

Pretty much the reason I suggested this was first as a solution to FH Fair. It's been mentioned way too often Snake cannot do anything against it. OoS Bair I originally thought would have excellent range to hit Marth on FH Retreating Fair. Marth gets a -25 frame advantage from doing that and snake's Bair hits on Frame 7 and given that jumping gets rid of shield dropping frames. This means it hits well within that period to punish Marth.

n the Marth can count to 3 this has limited affect on the game if you're only going to use one grenade at a time. Facing the wrong direction this also limits you, it doesn't take much to see that Snake needs to shield drop the nade in order to throw it from this position, Marth can just wait for him.

The range doesn't really matter, the attack puts Snake in a frame trap where his bair shouldn't be a workable response. In fact aside from shield grabbing it when badly spaced Snake shouldn't be able to punish dtilt OOS at all from what I can see(well if you have a nade in your hand you can toss it, IIRC throwing items OOS is like 3 frames, but that's not really punishing since you'll take damage too).

I think it's a good mixup but it's not a solid form of defense that you should rely on exclusively or even close to it, it has holes that can be exploited and ultimately limits your options tremendously.

In general I would say don't expect to punish Marth OOS a ton as Snake, he has a lot of safe attacks where upon shielding you're actually better off just running away. Whiffed attacks > dash attack is generally more reliable for you IMO

For certain parts if Marth's fair will hit the grenade, the grenade will explode on him but if Marth catches the grenade with f-air you can strip the grenade. You can try insta-throwing grenades against Marth.

He outranges everything you can do except for dash attack, which is extremely punishable.
His shieldbreaker owns Snake, as Snakes like to shield/shield drop nades, so be very careful of shieldbreakers, it is not safe to shield against Marth.
The only way to beat Marth is to camp him, cook your nades, and keep them close to you, he will get hit by them as he has to get close to attack you.
Marth is extremely good at juggling, if he hits you up, make it your 1st priority to land. Make sure to always mix up how you land, as marth is really good at hitting you back up again, I fail in this situation, so I cant really help all that much. I'm suggisting that at higher up try to fastfall airdodge through his aerieals, as you can land before he does, closer to the ground try to grenade/grenade reversal and move towards marth so that he also gets hit by the nade.
When recovering, keep your distance from marth/the stage, marth can just steal your C4 by letting you sticky him if your too close (maybe you can footstool in that situation?).do extra C4 jumps if neccesary, if you C4 recovery at the bottom, DI away from the stage because he will try to go for the footstool.

Ally's grenade work is vastly superior in the first one compared to the second one. He also refuses to try CQC as much. Prefering to always be on the defence by spacing away, and staying in the shield. With grenades no less. He will mix it up too.

Utilt, Ftilt, Jab, all are not used often at all. In a way, he nade spams, but smartly. That sort of solves the spacing issue by always make sure Marth tries to follow you where you can punish mistakes.

Juggling... I cannot see how we can change anything. Mix-up our recovery is the best thing I can think of (as we do against anyone xD). To help solve that problem though, I think that picking the right stage could make a huge difference. Stages with moving stages such as smashville allow us options to many things. More so than FD. Taking that example, I think Rainbow Cruise would work just as well.

You should avoid using the same tactics you do because it starts getting predictable. This match up requires lots of dangerous mindgames and wise mix-ups/variety. You have to know all the possible tactics of Marth such as the moves he use in different phases such as staying defensive, land chasing, offensive etc.

Dealing w/ juggling is very difficult. No, do not take Marth to Smashville...this stage is in his favor....the moving platform is enough for him to get around Nades and almost any other form of spacing w/ explosives. When recovering we want to cook and throw grenades when we're very high up. other wise just throw grenades for pressure. On the way down we have C4 to help protect us....and Reversal-b is a great way to shut down almost all forms of Marth trying to juggle us. There is also simple things like Bair and spacing Nair to get all hits out just so you can land safely or safely grab the edge.

In this MU.......VARY nade....or a simple dash grab, pivot grab, Fair, or sometime even a DB.....will cut right through our spacing.

The stage and it's geography have ALOT....and I mean ALOT...to do w/ Snake v. Marth. I do no some things from watching MikeHAZE v. Ally @ both Activegamers and EVO. First and foremost, cook and keep grenades close at all timz, Obviously. The SH spaced Fair approaches can be temporarily shut down by pullin a grenade and close throwing it and just backing up a few steps.

Backward Nade camp works well, pull a nade and walk to him backwards, then roll away, you can shield too but you could get shield broken.

Marth's juggling ability is tremendous so Snake must be careful of Marth. When you are in a middle of a juggling phase, you must quickly pullout a nade and soft throw, shift to the direction to Snake's back then soft throw the nade. Marth's air attacks might hit the grenade causing the grenade to explode on him but maybe it has some chances of hitting you but if Marth manages to catch it. Quickly fastfall then pull out a nade then shield drop, it will strip then explode on Marth. While doing the strip on Marth you can additionally throw the dropped grenade to Marth to extend the hitbox.

U-air is brutal for snake. A good marth will be able to bait the air dodge and punish. Again, mix it up with 1, 2 b-reversals and ff-airdodge. Don't become predictable. Recover high to avoid dair spiking.

Like yume said, camp and camp hard. Marth has no projectiles so. also, be wary of your moves. If it's powershielded, be wary of DS punisher. Also, be don't use nair cause Marth can DS in between the second and third kicks I believe. SDI his DB the best you can. Expect a lot of pressure from that. Again, as yume said, be wary of shield breaker.

Also, if Marth charges shield breaker to recover, punish the hell out of it. Predict where he'll go. Usually never happens though. But yea, Nades are essential.

Running with Nades backwards can still be reasonably safe with fair (but harder), I would generally start landing with tippered nairs in this case, and dancing blade any of your next movements (i.e. you can only roll, or shield and pivot grab). Include the shield decay of two hits of nair and you're suddenly in easy shield poke territory.

When recovering against Marth you should try to get as high as possible, I say use your C4 wisely and never leave it on the stage when your cyphering offstage, thats just asking for death. If you get hit off stage blow it up IMMEDIATELY. A good strategy to do is that if your hit off horizontally, C4 yourself immediately so that you will be above marth and in a better position, also becareful when using cypher, aim it so that your sure that marth can't hit you in the startup lag. If your hit up one of the best things to do is to cypher as high as you can and drop a nikita, then fall with the nikita so that youll have a hitbox protecting you.

When trying to land, watch Marth to see if he will wait for you to land or go up and attack you. If hes trying to attack you try to fast fall through his aerials or nade counter, but if he spaces well he can hit you w/o hitting the nade or even avoid the explosion. If he's trying to catch you on landing, judge your horizontal position relative to his and either keep moving forward if hes behind you or C4 -reversal if hes in front. On landing, Snake basically have 3 options, nade/nade-reversal, airdodge, bair. You want your back to be facing him because a sweet spot bair is actually safe on shield because of the shield stun. But if you miss you will be punished. I say bair is your best move but use it wisely, nade pull is good too but he can just grab you, so yeah, marth has way more options than Snake on this one.

With CQC Marth dominates Snake, so make sure to always have nades near you, dont be predictable in camping, as he can manuver through your nades, but always mix it up.

I said this earlier but, to temporarily shut down SH Spaced Fairs.....simply Close Throw a Nade. This give Snake some time to move away from Marth and set something up....or just "take a breather".
Anti juggles- Well Snake has a a lot of this.....people think they can simply juggle Snake has lots of ways to get around this.
Air dodging-The easiest way to Anti-juggle. That probably is not the best Anti juggle option.
C4- On the way down from Cypher use your C4 defensively. Simply just let it drop it and....stay close to it on the rest of the way down.
Grenades- Grenades are a great way to Anti-juggle. Let me explain, all of us know how to S.D.I. (excluding beginners) we'll aim for either top left or top right corners of the stage...so this way we have a lot of time to throw grenades. There's a couple different ways to do this....(I mean throw grenades).
-You can just throw them out normally and recover immediately after....this way when you decide to let go of your Cypher the grenades will explode leaving the area you want to land on "open".
-The next way is...to pull a grenade after you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed........pull a grenade and just hold it and when you get to about ground level throw it, this will (obviously) cook the grenade and if anyone tries to appraoch the Nade will stop them by blowing-up in there face.
- After you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed....let yourslef fall and as soon ther approach... Cypher and go to the top of the screen (where you start to get damage) let go of your Cypher, then quickly Close throw a Nade or 2 on the way down.....let them fall and on the way down "follow them" down. This will create a wall very close to where you want to land....making very hard to approach Snake. And if you do approach the Nade will stop almost all juggles.
- This one is very simple..... after you've S.D.I.ed the attack into the top left or top right corners, then D.I.ed....pull a grenade and just hold it till you reach the ground....and also if you land w/ a grenade in you hand Snake's shield comes out 2 Frames faster. This will obviously stop juggles cause if they try hit you the grenade will blow up as soon as Snake gets hit.
-Then there the mixture of 2- For this drop a C4 in one direction and when you get close to your opponent quickly Reversal B a grenade. This will give Snake Momentum on the opposite direction he was falling.
-Then there's landing/grabing the edge using Aerials.
N-air- this is as simple as it sound use Nair (be sure to space it correctly) on your way down. They get hit by one of the hits of Nair and there you have it. There's also Space Nair to where all hits come out and it stop by the edge so Snake automatically grabs the edge after he finishes Nair.
Bair- Probably the easiest of all anti juggle Techniques and the one beginner Snakes luv to use. When you get close the opponent, who's trying to Juggle you, just use Bair or Bair Fast fall.

Ohhh....one more thing.
Always and I mean always MIX UP how you land/Anti-Juggle

One important thing you didn't mention is using the nikita on recovery, when your hit up, close to the top blast zone, jump+cypher or cypher up as far as possible, then fire a nikita and drop it ASAP, this way you will be too high up to be punished for the ending lag. The thing that makes nikita more superior to grenade or C4 is that it is a constant falling hitbox that you can follow.

Grenades only explode if it is hit by a hitbox or after 3 seconds, a good Marth will know the timing enough to avoid the nades and still juggle you. If your going to try to land with a nade, make sure you pull the nade when your close to the ground, or you will get hit, he can hit you and avoid the explosion if he tippers a fair. Be careful when you b-reverse, top players can see it coming and punish you for doing it, dont b-reverse unless you need it (your moving towards marth horizontally, dont do it if your moving away).
I like using C4 for the wavebouncing momentum shift, you can shift your momentum and/or directing your facing w/o having to pull a grenade. The thing about C4 is that Marth can react to you blowing it up by airdodging because of the lag it takes to explode it first.

Airdodging is good if your falling and hes on the way up, this way you can fast fall air dodge through his attacks and get under him, giving you a chance to punish. if your both falling marth can hit you in the ending lag of your airdodge.

Bair is a good move if your back is facing him, but know that he can hit you if your not directly horizontal with him and avoid your attack.

I would really avoid using Nair against Marth, Marth can upb after you kick him twice. As for recovering, Nair lasts a while and has landing lag, learn the distance so that you can autocancel a nair and a fastfalling nair. But having said that, your still exposed under you when you nair, so it wont protect you at all if marth can get under you, plus he can react to you using it because of how long nair lasts.


As for fighting marth, it is very important for snake to close throw nades, shield drop nades, just make sure you have nades nearby. But know that pulling a nade and lobbing it have tons of lag, a skilled marth player can rush you and hit you in the laf, and with marth having quick attack with thinner hitboxes (nair, dtilt, utilt, shield breaker) he can hit you w/o hitting the nade. I'd say at the top level, Marth def has the advantage over Snake. But nade camping is still our best bet.

Final D - Marth can struggle a bit handling some 'camp' (mostly dash atttack/dacus stuff, but it isn't too bad). Juggles reasonably well. Can't vary landings himself though.
Battlefield - Can be -really- annoying against Snake lopping grenades and using dash attacks properly. Really, really really annoying.
Yoshi's Island - Marth gets ***** (ive said this)
Smashville - Pretty good =)
Pkmn Stadium - Not bad for Snake, when Marth bans halberd, this or Frigate is probably one of their best CPs.
Lylat - I've had good experiences against Snake on this stage, but honestly haven't played a Snake on it in a long long time (I havent played it since I thought Snake ***** Marth `-`)

Moves used to punish shield breaker:
Jab hit frames: 3-4 (It is 27 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also use after jab the other 2 jabs or a followed up f-tilt
F-tilt 1 hit frames: 4-5 (It is 25 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB) You can also add the 2nd hit of f-tilt
D-tilt hit frames: 6-8 (It is 22 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)
U-tilt hit frames: 6-13 (It is 17 frames ahead of the end of the ending lag of SB)<- This should be used if Marth is at 100% above

Marth's moves that can punish rolls:
-Additional notes that Marth runs fast
Dash attack: (Unknown frames but it can punish well)
Fair hit frames: 4-8 (34 duration) *Additional SHFF advantage: -4
About f-air marth can dash--> SH Fair--> Fastfall

He can actually punish Marth's U-smash, even though he's on a platform. It's easy to see it coming so you can shield it, seriously. Camping Marth is the best bet here and mixing up is good too. If you wanna approach Marth you can shield drop a nade then get it approach Marth SH throw it downwards pull out a nade shield then BOOM.

Again....

Problem: Juggles
Marth's juggling ability is tremendous so Snake must be careful of Marth. When you are in a middle of a juggling phase, you must quickly pullout a nade and soft throw, shift to the direction to Snake's back then soft throw the nade. Marth's air attacks might hit the grenade causing the grenade to explode on him but maybe it has some chances of hitting you but if Marth manages to catch it. Quickly fastfall then pull out a nade then shield drop, it will strip then explode on Marth. While doing the strip on Marth you can additionally throw the dropped grenade to Marth to extend the hitbox.

What to do in the match up?
Nade camping is your best bet. Do not approach Marth! You'll just get yourself juggled. To build a heavy defense you must put 2 mines infront of you then behind your mines start camping so when the opponent goes near your mines, activate the first mine causing the 2 mines to explode due to the remore mine being beside the C4. You shouldn't use the same tactic all over again. You have to mix up your tactics to confuse your opponent and mindgames.

And again...

Throwing nades off-stage is dependant. If you are near falling to death, throw one nade but if you far throw 2. If Marth tries using f-air to edgeguard, grenades will block him so he'll probably hit the nade then it will explode on him. If he tries jumping over the nades to attack you, who cares -_- you can fastfall then cypher

.. and also b-reversals are good mix ups

Marth's tilts.... powersield then punish except D-tilt but you can pull out a nade then let Marth hit you then nade will drop from you then you jump away throw annother nade. It's not that simple to get past nades you know. About Marth's tilts again, when you hear the sword sound quickly shield then punish this is where ears are important at. F-tilt has some start-up so you can shield then punish as for U-tilt, it's more difficult though it can be powershielded once you hear the sword swipe sound, shield quickly then punish. D-tilt was clarified already. His air games, soft-throw maybe 1 or 2 times depending on the situation or how far are you from Marth then Jump away. DB, I don't know how to deal with that but all I know is to DI it.

Not falling on the platform Nic and yeah SV is good too

So the changes are this:
- No throwing grenades off-stage
- SV is good against Marth
- Pressure can be dealed by hard camping
- Camp hard
- Mind games
- Spam nades
- Take advantage of Marth having no projectiels
- Don't approach
- SB can be spot dodged actually but it requires precise timing
- Punishing in the right time is strictly needed
- Mix up and variety is important here

Marth's f-throw-->f-smash is deadly, dealing with punishment nades and mines are everything in this match up. Edgeguaring Marth is VERY EFFECTIVE though it requires patience. Best way to push Marth off stage (Not gonna blow up yet) is maybe an F-tilt or SH B-air (The sweetspot is on the head of Snake initiating) then edgeguard Marth with nades or nikitas

Problems:
Speed- Marth is a fast runner + the fastest walker in Brawl, I'm thinking to just walk instead of running with Snake. Why? So we can let Marth pressure us and we can time punishment. I say grenade countering is best IMO

Air games- Ignore Marth's air games, just stay on ground and don't let him SH U-air or U-tilt you. Learn to powershield then punish

Advantages:
KOs- Marth relies only on edgeguard KOs. You can KO him with a fresh U-tilt when he's at around 90-100%.

Poor recovery- Marth's recovery isn't good.

Credit:
Shaya
Xeylo
Nic64
Yume
Berk
Supersright
Darkshadow

 

[Yumewomiteru]

yea.... lets make that more appealing so its not a wall of text =/

 

[Berserker.]

So I compiled all of it, all you (Yume) need to do is summarize it