On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[Oro?!]

It wouldn't. It would just make them kill slightly slower, and force them to be slightly more precise in regards to Falco.

 

[JOE!]

I'll explain my views a bit better when I get a moment, been busy and forced to just use blurbs from mobile.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If Fox and Falco were nerfed into their PAL selves, how would that change the matchups that they possess? Would it make them drop significantly in the rankings compared to the characters that are considered slightly below Fox/Falco on the speculated tier list?

Why does it matter? The spacies are strong, for sure, but they aren't broken. They are beatable. I would rather go through the rest of the cast and think about buffs that would allow them to have a fair chance at the match-up instead of nerfing the moves of spacies in general.

 

[Scythe]

aside from many of the old melee low tiers just being trash in general, sheik's downthrow was one of the biggest reasons you would never play them in tourney. You'd just get chainthrown every stock to death. Besides no one in PM is as bad as some of the characters in melee were.

 

[Deleted member]

aside from many of the old melee low tiers just being trash in general, sheik's downthrow was one of the biggest reasons you would never play them in tourney. You'd just get chainthrown every stock to death.

This is absolutely false. While Sheik's CG was disproportionately powerful against many low tiers, the low tiers were never kept out of tournaments because of it. I've never heard of a single case where a potent low tier player was chaingrabbed out of a bracket in my modest 10 years here and having been one of those players for 4 different low tier characters.

 

[Oro?!]

Characters being beatable is a broken argument from a balance perspective. Old Sagat in SSFII Turbo is considered beatable for all of the better characters, but due to the amount of diversity removing him from the metagame brings, Japan soft bans Old Sagat. A similar argument could be made for Melee Sheik. She is beatable and not the best character in the game, much like Old Sagat, but she causes a lot of degenerative gameplay with no counterplay available among the lower half of the tier list.

Fox and Falco don't suffer from the same argumentative structure. There isn't a singular op tactic that spacies could divulge into that would break matchups, it's more of a they have counterplay to every possible tactic outside of chaingrabs and enough options to deal with any matchup offensively or defensively.

Making characters strong enough to deal with such characters as Fox and Falco is very fragile. In order to be given options to compete, a lot of polarizing and bad mechanics are created. Examples of these would be 2.1 Ike, 2.1 Lucario, and Sonic on the whole. If it remains impossible to create a balance system where such anti-fun mechanics are continuously created in order to fight fun characters like spacies (not necessarily balanced), then I personally would stop remaining neutral on this topic.

Until every character in PM is announced, released, and subjectively balanced, there will be no telling what argument is stronger between change and no change for spacies. From a game design perspective, there is nothing objectively wrong with spacies design, since they do not possess degenerative tactics (except maybe Fox running away on Temple, but that's why we are able to control stages), it could be said that they just have well above average options in every situation in comparison to the entire cast. There is not a single move you could nitpick from Fox that would change this, shine included. It is a combination of Fox's entire being that makes him as good as he is, from his run speed/gravity/weight/jump squat/moveset and any other intangible thing. Some aspects of Fox could be considered beatable or abusable in matchups, and that is usually how characters have a chance of beating Fox. The fact that Fox has the weight and gravity that he possesses, gives characters in general counterplay to his character in the form of chaingrabs and comboability. The fact that Fox has relatively small hitboxes since he is a small character, allows characters to trade easily or beat out Fox's moves which can lead Fox's comboability faults.

Fox and Falco aren't perfect, they are just better than every other character. Get better is never a winnable argument when it comes to a game design perspective.

Tl:dr There is no right side of the argument. There are "right" arguments to be made for nerfing and not nerfing spacies from both a design perspective and from project goals.

This topic should be locked and is unproductive.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Why does it matter? The spacies are strong, for sure, but they aren't broken. They are beatable. I would rather go through the rest of the cast and think about buffs that would allow them to have a fair chance at the match-up instead of nerfing the moves of spacies in general.

I wasn't trying to make a point actually, I was seriously asking what effect it would have on the game if they were like that. I've never played the PAL version, so I don't know first hand.

 

[Sarix]

After reading your post Oro I very much agree with what you have to say. Considering how infantile the metagame of P:M is I personally find arguments for pro/anti spacies nerfing to be incredibly trite already since despite Fox and Falco being restored to their Melee incarnations, few other Melee veterans are the same and have gained new traits to deal with the MU and exploit the space animals' flaws. Instead of arguing over what has been in the past it would be more productive to see what the new and improved characters in P:M can do in their overall MUs before jumping to rather aimless discussions on things such as the space animals being the P:M equivalent to Brawl's MK when the dev team is clearly going to try and avoid that and will balance character's where they feel it is necessary. Unlike Sakurai previously, they are working with a diverse metagame in mind based on the Melee template. By keeping the majority of high and top tiers how they were they can focus on the problems with the lower tier characters and make them actually viable and hopefully reduce the ridiculous number of tiers down to S-C hopefully.

Most of this discussion seems to do nothing but go around in circles and would be better off locked so it doesn't get the chance to degenerate into a full on flame war thread.

 

[JOE!]

Know what, it'd probably be best to lock this until the "balance phase" in all honesty. Not only will these threads for other characters be common place, but we'd have the whole cast out to look at vs "problem" characters.

As for my reasoning before:

I find any character that is overly reliant on a handful of "great" moves to win utterly obnoxious. This includes Jigglypuff and Falco, as even the great players seem to still default to the same few moves (Dairs, Utilts, Fair/Bair, Rest, etc) that will work for them when other characters (including fox) use their entire set to full effect. The former seems a tad shallow to me in that they can get away with being great by holding on to a few moves, like could Falco be as successful if he had a clone of Fox's Dair, but not his physics/etc?

While subjective yes, I find many may share the view for why they get frustrated by such characters. It feels like you are fighting a move than a character at times which is what makes them "dumb". The slightly less subjective portion of said frustration comes from when matchups are skewed thanks to said moves. Characters that can't deal with WoP (less of a problem now) or Lasers / Pillaring for example, would unfortunately require changing the core feel of the characters that use those tactics.

As for the balance statement: If you buff Ganon to fight Fox better, and he ends up destroying Ike now due to the same buffs, he would also probably destroy characters -like- Ike in similar vein to how Fox messes with characters -like- Ganon. To summarize, it'd be like a slippery slope of buffing (power creep) in order to continually keep everybody up to par. Instead, would it not be simpler to address the route and bring the base character that affects a huge array of matchups (everybody wants to know / needs to win the spacy matchup) in line?

 

[1MachGO]

This thread has gone quite off topic anyway. It was supposed to be "why is there a sudden surge of fox and falco hate?". Now its become the nerf fox's usmash camp vs the don't nerf fox's usmash camp.

 

[Oro?!]

Fun is subjective and I enjoy spacies even though they have pretty ridiculous qualities. It's a challenge to fight against them, as well as being fun playing very strong characters where you feel the sky is the limit as long as your fingers and mind can keep up.

 

[Mithost]

This thread has gone quite off topic anyway. It was supposed to be "why is there a sudden surge of fox and falco hate?". Now its become the nerf fox's usmash camp vs the don't nerf fox's usmash camp.

Well that's because most of the hate on fox is his Up Smash. It's on topic enough.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

This thread has gone quite off topic anyway. It was supposed to be "why is there a sudden surge of fox and falco hate?". Now its become the nerf fox's usmash camp vs the don't nerf fox's usmash camp.

Well this isn't really a sudden thing lol fox and falco have been the bad guys of melee for a long time, its just with this game some people are being introduced to them for the first time so I guess you just see a fresh wave of it.

That being said, I like to play the space animals every now and again, its fun sometimes to just blink and shoot lasers all over the place.

 

[JOE!]

It's also an opportunity for them to be altered, seeing as even Sheik was, which leads to these kinds of discussions. While not ideal, it's certainly healthier to at least talk about it than suck it up.

 

[NightShadow6]

The thing about the match ups with nearly any character the spacies go against, is that getting bodied is a 2-way street for the most part.

Anyway, we've been playing spacies for so many years I don't see a reason to change them.

(Nvm)

 

[Scythe]

The wavedash about the match ups with nearly any wavedash the spacies go against, is that getting bodied is a 2-way street for the most part.

Anyway, we've been playing spacies for so many years I don't see a reason to change them.

(Nvm)

wavedash? what?

 

[standardtoaster]

apri l fools stuff for smashboards just started, scythe, haha

 

[CyberZixx]

wavedash? what?

The forums have become wonky and words are being replaced with "wavedash"

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Instead of nerfing fox/falco we should seriously look into nerfing wolf. That ***** broke as ****

 

[SpiderMad]

How so?
.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well it was a joke...

 

[SpiderMad]

Your jokes suck, I challenge you to a $2 MM on an HDTV

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ivysaur dittos only?

 

[SpiderMad]

Diddy dittos, Rumble Falls only

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ooooo... I'm game. Love me some diddy.

How bad is P:M wifi? 166ms ping is 10 frames lag, if we had a good connection (~80ping or better) it shouldn't be more than 5 frames lag. I havent played brawl wifi in 5 years so my memory is fuzzy on whether it really works like this. I think I could take playing for funzies on wifi if it wasnt worse than 5 frames or so.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wi-Fi has a forced 6 frames of lag in addition to lag from ping.

 

[SpiderMad]

Here's the HDTV place http://smashboards.com/threads/wave...-2013-oak-park-il.334381/page-3#post-15413259
I won't be there for the next one most likely, but for the one after that possibly.

I think I could take playing for funzies on wifi if it wasnt worse than 5 frames or so.

LOL, it's more along the lines of just playing it and hope it's under 50. I'd probably have the best connection with you to test it out, since my internet is good and I'm in Chicago obv. (I was the guy who asked you questions about your early PMBR'ership where you said snake could go invisible)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh that was you! Oh **** wifi then lets play next weekend at CoD. You going?

 

[Ace55]

I wasn't trying to make a point actually, I was seriously asking what effect it would have on the game if they were like that. I've never played the PAL version, so I don't know first hand.

Very little, they are still considered the best chars. Only PAL top tier matchup that are kinda different are Fox vs Marth (no waveshines and no Ken combos, still considered basically even as far as I know) and Sheik vs Marth (still a ****ty matchup).

They changed a few things about the spacies but they didn't change anything that stops them from 'being spacies' if you know what I mean.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach and puff are/were significantly better in PAL due to them remaining the same while their main counters being nerfed. For example, it has been brought up that PAL sheik has no options against a high damage peach that camps her shield (peach just holds away and theres no serious followups from grab). Because sheik has no reliable way to kill peach, the match-up is considered ~60:40 peach's favor as opposed to about the same magin in sheik's favor in NTSC. Puff may actually be #1 in PAL, but a european verson of hbox/mango never appeared to prove it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Oh that was you! Oh **** wifi then lets play next weekend at CoD. You going?

My work hasn't been giving me any Saturdays off, I'll ask though

 

[Ace55]

Peach and puff are/were significantly better in PAL due to them remaining the same while their main counters being nerfed. For example, it has been brought up that PAL sheik has no options against a high damage peach that camps her shield (peach just holds away and theres no serious followups from grab). Because sheik has no reliable way to kill peach, the match-up is considered ~60:40 peach's favor as opposed to about the same magin in sheik's favor in NTSC. Puff may actually be #1 in PAL, but a european verson of hbox/mango never appeared to prove it.

Yeah this is true forgot about those. And the Sheik - Peach is indeed pretty drastically different. Puff is nonexistent in the top of the euro scene so that's probably why I forgot her.

Point still stands that the spacie matchups are virtually the same.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The same in theory, but not in outcome. This is because the mechanics stayed the same for the most part. Fox dies earlier and kills later, so he does have a relatively harder time in every match-up. Falco's dair doesn't allow for all the same combos, so his damage output is lower and his ability to edgeguard is worse.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

So basically if we made Fox/Falco into their PAL version, then Peach becomes Queen **** of Turd Mountain? For some reason, I don't like that change either. Yeah, the lowers should be buffed before nerfing the spacie duo is seriously considered.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well no not necessarily, there is still the rest of the improved roster to think about, which most of them are significantly better than their melee counterparts. Plus our meta game is going to be different because of who our top players play, which might be a lot different than our neighbors...still possible though lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Honestly, i dont know why people aren't complaining about falcon, he recieved a ****ton of buffs and is definitely top tier atm.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Maybe because Falcon has one of the most predictable and easy to gimp recoveries in the game?

 

[SpiderMad]

Did you try spamming down-b though?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But he doesnt anymore. He can actually sweetspot now and he has a 2nd recovery move (sideb). Not to mention falcon kick was buffed. His recovery is pretty solid.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'll let you keep 4/1'ing