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On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

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I'm not sure the "get better" argument is a function of the author's personal skill. That said, I think the statement is faulty, but I don't even think the source should legitimize it as you're suggesting.

That said, I don't see why your assumption should necessarily lead to personal attacks on sveet. I think it's healthy for you guys to butt heads to some extent, but both of your are taking it personally which you could probably both drop and be better off. You've both brought some decent points to the table to work with if all of those points were addressed.
 

Mr.Pickle

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Umbreon has a good point, no need to get your jimmies rustled because of this guys. Just calm down and say goosfraba a couple of times, and lets just continue with the topic at hand.
 

Warhawk

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Why are we still arguing who's better than who rather than what few valid points were actually generated, such as: Does Fox who doesn't seem to dominate the tournament scene of either game really need to be nerfed? People used to complain about Jigglypuff being broken because she also had a dramatic effect on the way matchups vs her had to be played due to her polarizing attributes as well. Is this the same thing here and if so how much of a problem is this? On the other side does Fox put you in such a bind when designing characters that he stagnates the design of the rest of the cast and makes the rest of the cast play pretty much the same? Are there some characters that if kept to their general style and design are never going to be able to beat Fox as he is right now? I think as it is right now the nerfs that have occurred have been too quick and too dramatic. I do think that Ike and Lucario maybe needed some tweaks but especially in Lucario's case it seems like things went overboard when maybe only smaller adjustments were needed. Any tweaks should be small to start since there's going to be more than one more opportunity as needed to make further adjustments to characters.


Also when playtesters/designers make comments about how bad melee is (despite the game borrowing a lot of stuff from melee oddly) and how things should unquestionably be a certain way it puts a bad taste in the mouth of those of us who want to play this game or make the switch but haven't fully jumped over yet. It just seems in bad taste, and not that there shouldn't be changes but it sometimes kinda makes it seem like the game is going to be fitted to the small group of people helping to design a game and how they want it to be. I'm sure this isn't how it is but this probably scares some people off from this game when one of the objectives right now is to get people to try it out.
 

JOE!

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To summarize, I have no problems with Fox as-is except for how he has (comparatively) easy to land POWER moves on top of all the other things he can do. Having a smash attack that kills around 100% is cool and all, but when it is as set-up-able as Usmash, or as useful as Uair then it is just like.. meh.

Falco on the other hand I just find obnoxious in how the majority of his playstyle revolves around screwing you over with lazers or Dair until you are at X %, then go for a kill. But at the same time I hate any character that seems to be over-reliant on a handful of moves that make them awesome (See: Jigglypuff, etc). He just seems to be able to get away with crap other characters don't have the luxury of using.
 

BTmoney

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To summarize, I have no problems with Fox as-is except for how he has (comparatively) easy to land POWER moves on top of all the other things he can do. Having a smash attack that kills around 100% is cool and all, but when it is as set-up-able as Usmash, or as useful as Uair then it is just like.. meh.
So basically your problem with Fox is everything about him lol.

Why are we still arguing who's better than who rather than what few valid points were actually brought up? Does Fox who doesn't seem to dominate the tournament scene of either game really need to be nerfed? People used to complain about Jigglypuff being broken because she also had a dramatic effect on the way matchups vs her had to be played due to her polarizing attributes as well. Is this the same thing here and if so how much of a problem is this? On the other side does Fox put you in such a bind when designing characters that he stagnates the design of the rest of the cast and makes the rest of the cast play pretty much the same? Are there some characters that if kept to their general style and design are never going to be able to beat Fox as he is right now? I think as it is right now the nerfs that have occurred have been too quick and too dramatic. I do think that Ike and Lucario maybe needed some tweaks but especially in Lucario's case it seems like things went overboard when maybe only smaller adjustments were needed. Any tweaks should be small to start since there's going to be more than one more opportunity as needed to make further adjustments to characters.


Also when playtesters/designers make comments about how bad melee is (despite the game borrowing a lot of stuff from melee oddly) and how things should unquestionably be a certain way it puts a bad taste in the mouth of those of us who want to play this game or make the switch but haven't fully jumped over yet. It just seems in bad taste, and not that there shouldn't be changes but it sometimes kinda makes it seem like the game is going to be fitted to the small group of people helping to design a game and how they want it to be. I'm sure this isn't how it is but this probably scares some people off from this game when one of the objectives right now is to get people to try it out.

This is a top tier post.


@Sveet you brought up some good points. I don't exactly agree with you as a whole but I like some of your views.

I don't think this thread is going to go anywhere though. Fox doesn't even have that strong of PM results and he's not bodying any and everyone. When he does then suggestions should be taken.
 

JOE!

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So, that said: when are the bowser nerfs coming? :troll:

But yeah, its really those two moves that bug me, and if "that is everything about him" then is that not concerning?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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If you compare any of fox's smashes to other characters, there isn't much of a difference. Is fox's fsmash better than wolf's? or mario's? or lucas's? His usmash isn't much different from sheik's or pikachu's and I don't think its the fastest KOing in the game. I don't think any of fox's smashes or moves are overpowered, but none of them are underpowered/useless. That is something the design team should aspire for every character.
 

Spiffykins

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If you compare any of fox's smashes to other characters, there isn't much of a difference. Is fox's fsmash better than wolf's? or mario's? or lucas's? His usmash isn't much different from sheik's or pikachu's and I don't think its the fastest KOing in the game. I don't think any of fox's smashes or moves are overpowered, but none of them are underpowered/useless. That is something the design team should aspire for every character.
Those comparisons are bunk. Wolf's fsmash often doesn't link into the second hit properly, so you can't use it reliably when the opponent is right on top of you. Mario has only two especially good kill moves: fsmash and fair. Lucas' has pretty poor range. Sheik's usmash is trickier to sweetspot, and Pika's is easily punishable even at high percents if you don't hit with the strong hit, something that cannot be said of Fox's.

Let's also bear in mind that Fox's usmash combos from a "frame 1 full coverage hitbox with invincibility that can be jump canceled on frame 4" on a large portion of the cast, regardless of percent.
 
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^Exactly. We're not talking about the move being too good compared to other moves in a vacuum. On its own the move may not be overpowered, but it may be overpowered on Fox.

Why does Fox need his Usmash to be as powerful as it is considering all of his other strong attributes.
 

Warhawk

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I don't know why we keep going back to Fox's upsmash. I don't think giving him a PAL upsmash is going to really affect Fox too much at all.


If we do experiment with any kind of nerf I think it should be nerfing his and Falco's recovery honestly. Give them some lag when they land or something. I don't think he needs a nerf yet, but I think if we want to test anything that's where it should start in my opinion.
 

Mr.Pickle

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I agree with the giving him some lag on his recovery, and PAL upsmash not affecting him too much is the point. If fox gets any nerfs, they need to keep his playstyle intact. Its not too big of a nerf to drop him down considerably on the eventual tier list, but just enough to relieve some pressure on the lower end of the cast. Pretty much the sheik treatment.
 

1MachGO

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Any character that is having difficulty with the Fox MU would be helped more by recieving buffs before Fox got any PAL-like nerfs.

Consider Captain Falcon. Falcon has the most resistance to upward KOs in the entire cast, do you think Fox having a weaker usmash would make the MU even? No, because that wasn't even his problem to begin with. Falcon will still get combo'd and gimped mercilessly because his recovery is balls and he his follow ups become severely reduced against non-floaties.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Those comparisons are bunk. Wolf's fsmash often doesn't link into the second hit properly, so you can't use it reliably when the opponent is right on top of you.
I havent noticed the second hit thing, I dont often use his fsmash. Is this due to SDI? Fox's uair is very susceptible to SDI in melee, for what its worth.

Mario has only two especially good kill moves: fsmash and fair.
Fox doesn't have many true KO moves either. Fox doesn't have an aerial that is anything as powerful as mario's fair. If you land a uair on someone on the ground, it doesn't KO until well above 100% (I would estimate around 120% for average characters, in melee ganon could live past 150%). When you uair out of an uthrow, you are hitting them when they are already well into the air so it seems like it has more KO power than it actually does.

Most of fox's strength in terms of killing efficiently lies in him being able to slowly push people off the stage and keep them off. His bair and nair don't really KO but they are relatively safe on hit and have good qualities in their knockback, as well as a shine to get people off him (and pushes them away - often towards the edge).

I don't think its a problem to allow a character to have both methods to edgeguard as well as have true KO options. In most cases, I think a severe lack of one or the other is a bad thing.

Lucas' has pretty poor range.
Lucas' fsmash is weaker than ness', no? I havent landed too many, to be honest, but I really thought it was too weak.

Sheik's usmash is trickier to sweetspot
But she has guaranteed setups and the sourspot is significantly better than it was in melee, and even then it was a useful KO move.

Pika's is easily punishable even at high percents if you don't hit with the strong hit, something that cannot be said of Fox's.
Was this changed from melee? In melee, the sourspot wasn't bad at all. It killed 20% or so later but still combod and landing the sweetspot wasn't anything other than a minor precision barrier. On hit, pikachus sweetspot usmash was the strongest uncharged usmash in the game.

Let's also bear in mind that Fox's usmash combos from a "frame 1 full coverage hitbox with invincibility that can be jump canceled on frame 4" on a large portion of the cast, regardless of percent.
But it doesn't actually come up that often in melee metagame. Drill is susceptible to SDI making it unreliable to combo into shine. Nair can be DI'd into the air which allows the opponent to dodge combos -- landing on the ground after being shined in the air results in no hitlag when you land, or thats how it was in melee (to my knowledge it is the same). Here is an example of PPU getting a free grab off SFAT by abusing this. The shine can also be SDI'd away which makes it hard for fox to a) reach you and b) predict/react to which DI you will do in order to follow up properly (fox's shine has much less hitlag than falcos; it isn't reliable to hit confirm with).



TL;DR, I hold that Fox does have a KO move, and its definitely good/viable, but I don't think it is something that is overpowered or a design flaw; if other characters lack killing power or other traits they should be buffed so that isn't a problem instead of gimping characters so they aren't as versatile.
 

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Difference is that Usmash being a little less powerful (I killed a Link who DI'ed it properly from the middle of PS2 at around 85% yesterday) won't make it less versatile, it'll just make it less dumb lol.

Anywho, enough about Fox, lets talk about Falco: Lasers are dumb :troll:
 

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Difference is that Usmash being a little less powerful (I killed a Link who DI'ed it properly from the middle of PS2 at around 85% yesterday) won't make it less versatile, it'll just make it less dumb lol.
Are you sure about that percent? In melee Link could live until at least 100% on pokemon stadium with proper DI. Are PS2's blastzones smaller or what? Were you on a platform?

I just did this exact test in melee and had link live until at least 107% (i have the frames for a gif, but its 160 frames so im not going to bother uploading)


Anywho, enough about Fox, lets talk about Falco: Lasers are dumb :troll:
Game.

Lasers are relatively weaker in P:M compared to melee since powershielding mechanics have become easier. It is just as hard to reflect the laser, but you can still reduce your shield stun.

I'd rather see a total remake of the character than see him nerfed to a shell of his former self.
 

JOE!

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The % is right, maybe the ceiling is a little smaller than PS1?

Anywho, Falco I just find dumb: his ability to both interrupt and force / freely approach is just annoying, and then when you get to him / get in you stand a chance of being pillared and reset and bleh.

Just obnoxious.
 

Mr.Pickle

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Idk I don't really have that much of a problem with lasers, they're gay but there are reasonable ways to deal with them. The most reasonable nerf to falco imo, would be a slight nerf to his dair. Maybe for a trade off make fair a little better?
 

CyberZixx

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Because his name is one letter away from Falcon but he is better? How is that fair? Falcon for top tier!
 

Ace55

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So after Falco I propose we think about ways to nerf Jiggs then Sheik then Marth then Peach all the way down until we are sure we have ruined this game completely.
 

Spiffykins

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Yep, I'm sure our 'PALs' over in Europe are universally convinced that their version of Melee was ruined completely.
 

Mr.Pickle

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So after Falco I propose we think about ways to nerf Jiggs then Sheik then Marth then Peach all the way down until we are sure we have ruined this game completely.
Yeah that sarcasm didn't help anything at all, please try to post something constructive in this thread if you're going to post.
 

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Satire is a legitimate way to express an opinion. Nobody would know the name Mark Twain if that wasn't true.
 

JOE!

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Shiek is fine, without the cg she doesnt have anything dumb about her. ***** is dumb since gameplay boils down to fair, bair and rest... Everything else is groovy.
 

Ace55

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Yeah that sarcasm didn't help anything at all, please try to post something constructive in this thread if you're going to post.
Do I really need to spell it out? The next melee char on the complaint list would/should be Jiggs. She arguably doesn't 'play by the rules' either with a one frame one hit KO move, being near impossible to combo and having the best recovery in the game. Now we don't have a 'on the topic of Jiggs hate' thread yet because between unpopularity and wider distributed 'anti Jiggs technology' she isn't doing very well for herself. However if the 'complain until they get nerfed' tactic starts working I'm sure we will get one. Then after we 'fix' her we can move on to the next suspect.
 

Mr.Pickle

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No you don't have to spell it out, it was obvious what you meant, but you're being completely ridiculous. You could've just as easily civilly disagreed by saying something along the lines of, "falco and fox nerfs are unnecessary because of x reason". Instead you used a sarcastic, "you're nerfing fox and falco?", " WHY DON'T YOU NERF EVERYBODY!" argument. Which doesn't help anything.
 

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The point is that the people arguing for the changes (especially nerfs) have the burden of proof. For example, one argument i've seen more than once is that fox's usmash isn't a deal breaker so why should he be given something that good. The argument works in reverse, if its not a deal breaker why does it need to be removed?

Ace is trying to say, if we nerf fox/falco to "average" levels, the next step for people following this logic would be to find the next "broken" character, probably puff. "Puff's bair is completely unfair... yadayadayada she has a perfectly good fair and nair and half her moves combo into a 1hko move!" By beginning to follow the line of logic to nerf the top characters we are inevitably paving the path to nerfing the next character and the next. Which game would you rather play, the game where every character is ridiculously good or the one where every character is equally bad?
 

1MachGO

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No you don't have to spell it out, it was obvious what you meant, but you're being completely ridiculous. You could've just as easily civilly disagreed by saying something along the lines of, "falco and fox nerfs are unnecessary because of x reason". Instead you used a sarcastic, "you're nerfing fox and falco?", " WHY DON'T YOU NERF EVERYBODY!" argument. Which doesn't help anything.
How about this for a civil disagreement: Fox and Falco nerfs are unnecessary because it would be more helpful to simply make other characters better?

Like I said with my C. Falcon example, simply nerfing something like Fox's usmash or Falco's dair won't alleviate the bad MUs.
 

JOE!

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Who? Beyond her there isn't anyone else who's really dumb.

Also, making somebody better will lead down the same slope. Say ganon gets buffed to help vs fox. The same buffs now let him **** Ike somehow, and the cycle keeps going.
 

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Who? Beyond her there isn't anyone else who's really dumb.

Also, making somebody better will lead down the same slope. Say ganon gets buffed to help vs fox. The same buffs now let him **** Ike somehow, and the cycle keeps going.
Is that bad? There is a predisposed winner in practically every matchup, and that wont change no matter what you do. Do you think its better to have characters that are more versatile (more "good" moves to use) or characters that have fewer useful moves so that they can't take advantage weaknesses? Good players can cover their weaknesses, but they can't take advantage of their opponent's weaknesses if their character doesn't physically have the tools to capitalize on noticed patterns/faults.
 

Mr.Pickle

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Honestly the game that everyone is bad, because in that scenario everyone has a slew of limitations that can be exploited and a specific strength unique to them. To me personally that makes it way more interesting than everyone having everything. Kinda reminds me of high soul level play on dark souls, which is super boring (If you haven't played that game I can explain it in detail lol).

I'm not sure if anyone really wants to bring fox and falco to an "average" level, just tone down some of their ridiculous options to where its still good, but not completely obnoxious and rage inducing. I mean, I don't see people complaining about the new sheik down throw, and its more or less on the same line of reasoning as fox's up smash.
 

CyberZixx

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I thought Sheik's down throw was changed because of how negatively it affected many other characters. Regardless of how good Fox's upsmash is it's not a dominating move. You won't see someone one go "well i'm doomed against fox due to upsmash". I would not want a game where everyone needed to have all tools to be viable but that is not project M. I feel so far a good job is being done on making all characters solid and unique. I want that kind of design over either extreme. I think characters with good tools are thus more fun.
 

1MachGO

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Who? Beyond her there isn't anyone else who's really dumb.

Also, making somebody better will lead down the same slope. Say ganon gets buffed to help vs fox. The same buffs now let him **** Ike somehow, and the cycle keeps going.
I apologize for sounding harsh, but your points are mostly vague opinions. Many times you just say things are "dumb". Without a specified criteria, the word dumb is simply subjective and isn't constructive. And your counter argument against buffing disadvantaged characters, while intentionally a what if, could afford to give some examples so it actually holds water as an argument.

Honestly the game that everyone is bad, because in that scenario everyone has a slew of limitations that can be exploited and a specific strength unique to them. To me personally that makes it way more interesting than everyone having everything. Kinda reminds me of high soul level play on dark souls, which is super boring (If you haven't played that game I can explain it in detail lol).

I'm not sure if anyone really wants to bring fox and falco to an "average" level, just tone down some of their ridiculous options to where its still good, but not completely obnoxious and rage inducing. I mean, I don't see people complaining about the new sheik down throw, and its more or less on the same line of reasoning as fox's up smash.
Fox's usmash is not comparable to Sheik's dthrow. Sheik's dthrow gave her a huge leg up on tons of characters and its capacity to punish mistakes was responsible (and still is in some cases) for a lot of bad MUs. Fox's usmash is purely a kill move and nerfing it wouldn't help balance the game like Sheik's dthrow. If Fox was going to be truly nerfed, his shine would have to be un-jump cancellable and his speed would have to be reduced. That would most definitely close the gap in bad MUs. However, this would seriously change his playstyle and eliminate some signature things from Melee which made it fun to watch and play to begin with (shout outs to shined blind).

That is why it would be better to give characters more tools to fight Fox/Falco than it would be to nerf the aspects which we find arbitrary. That doesn't mean all characters will be homogenized. Marth, Peach, Puff, and Sheik have had as much if not more large tournament success than Fox and Falco yet they still have a fair share of weaknesses.
 

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If Fox and Falco were nerfed into their PAL selves, how would that change the matchups that they possess? Would it make them drop significantly in the rankings compared to the characters that are considered slightly below Fox/Falco on the speculated tier list?
 

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Destroying his playstlye is not the only way to go about nerfing him. Like you said, it would be detrimental to the project because of how ingrained their playstlyes are in melee, and by association this project, which is based heavily on melee.

While the sheik down throw being similar to fox up smash reference might not have been the best comparison, they still share the similarity in that when changed, it still provided much needed relief to the lower tiers, while still keeping the character's basic design and playstyle intact (though in sheik's case its much more extreme). A middle ground of preserving their design and giving them slight alterations to their more inflated strengths is what I feel is the best solution, but as long as the proposed tools to battling the space animals make since in their design and doesn't ruin said character, I could agree with that....but thats a maybe.
 
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