On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[GaretHax]

That's kind of arguable. All three had interesting, unique concepts in character design, despite various quirks screwing things up. I certainly enjoy Brawl Fox over PM Fox, for instance. Same with Wolf.

Yea, everything is subjective and we are definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this matter. To me Fox felt incoherent and just terrible, and wolf felt worse than fox, throw in the janky chaingrab and projectile spam falco and you have a lackluster group of poorly designed characters IMO at least. I just don't think they fit well in Brawl or would fit well in melee, they seemed like total outliers to me. I have nothing against Brawl and played it for a while, had some good times, but ultimately i just don't like the slower, more defensive playstyle and have yet to meet a brawl player who doesn't prefer PM. You and the rest of the PMBR have really done a fantastic job thusly, in my opinion creating something better than either game, and I am more than willing to trust your judgement even when it comes down to some of my favorite characters. Ya'l know what you are doing and i have alot of respect for those who would take the time to actually do it. Of course it helps when the result is something as awesome as PM.

Also Brawl Wolf's Upsmash is so great lol, "RAUELL!"

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fox had unparalleled ground speed and mobility, powerful individual attacks, and the ability to make people come to him (via lasers) while having poor priority overall, meaning that he HAD to use his superior ground mobility to do work, and he still managed to be an above-average character.

Wolf was an ideal character in a lot of respects--Excellent range, priority, power, mobility, pokes, grab game, juggle game, aerials, and a decent-enough recovery. In concept, there's nothing he can't do and he would be an excellent character if not for the fact that if there's something the average person would label "a game-changing exploit," you can bet that he's affected negatively by it. Many different chaingrabs and combos that work on a few characters, and he would always be on that list.

Falco has poor horizontal aerial mobility and is generally a slow character, movement-wise but had commanding hitboxes and great frame advantage in a variety of situations. He could frame trap you with all sorts of stuff, had legitimately dangerous strings and combos, and was also really good at camping by virtue of his special moves, something that he excelled at. His strengths were quite pronounced and happened to work well within the confines of Brawl physics.

Also of note is the fact that these characters play nothing like each other, which is also refreshing, as compared to homogenized shuffled aerial -> Shine, being able to hardcore laser spam to great effect, and having superior power throughout most of their best options. I'm not saying that their similarities are a bad thing, but there's appeal in having three successful characters that don't feel like weird clones of each other.

 

[SpiderMad]

Half the characters in P:M are gay

 

[Oro?!]

They are all so happy that they are balanced.

 

[Bryonato]

Fox had unparalleled ground speed and mobility, powerful individual attacks, and the ability to make people come to him (via lasers) while having poor priority overall, meaning that he HAD to use his superior ground mobility to do work, and he still managed to be an above-average character.

Wolf was an ideal character in a lot of respects--Excellent range, priority, power, mobility, pokes, grab game, juggle game, aerials, and a decent-enough recovery. In concept, there's nothing he can't do and he would be an excellent character if not for the fact that if there's something the average person would label "a game-changing exploit," you can bet that he's affected negatively by it. Many different chaingrabs and combos that work on a few characters, and he would always be on that list.

Falco has poor horizontal aerial mobility and is generally a slow character, movement-wise but had commanding hitboxes and great frame advantage in a variety of situations. He could frame trap you with all sorts of stuff, had legitimately dangerous strings and combos, and was also really good at camping by virtue of his special moves, something that he excelled at. His strengths were quite pronounced and happened to work well within the confines of Brawl physics.

Also of note is the fact that these characters play nothing like each other, which is also refreshing, as compared to homogenized shuffled aerial -> Shine, being able to hardcore laser spam to great effect, and having superior power throughout most of their best options. I'm not saying that their similarities are a bad thing, but there's appeal in having three successful characters that don't feel like weird clones of each other.

That was definitely something I always appreciated about Brawl. I was quite young when Melee was released (9 or 10 I believe) and at the time didn't really appreciate that Falco was pretty much a clone of Fox (although I obviously now recognize their differences) and that thought always kind of stayed with me. In Brawl all 3 of the spacies really stood out from each other and actually felt like they had a unique identity. I really appreciate that.


EDIT: APPRECIATE

 

[SpiderMad]

You're all playing with an inferior air dodge too, that's a much harder to conquer bias than any of the other "Because Melee" things because even Brawl had it: well they had both hard press shield and air dodge which is a double whammy of stupid uncomfort for no reason. I super mega hope that if they do develop a replay working hard press air dodge, that they somehow implement a light press air dodge option for a single player slot to turn off or on.

 

[Mithost]

"Fox would have been nerfed"

"Not saying Fox should be nerfed"

what exactly are you saying here? Fox has traits that would be nerfed, but has immunity because melee?

This is more or less exactly what I am saying. The top tier melee vets seem to be written in stone (no matter how strong they are), while the new top tiers seem to be some grave danger to the balance of the game, and get nerfed too much. I think the PMBR took too much away from these characters than what made them an issue. This includes Lucario's nice dash attack and down B and Ike's good knockback on moves that rival (not pass) Fox's Upsmash.

 

[Shadic]

...Ike's KB wasn't really decreased though. His hilt attacks are generally stronger than his moves in 2.1.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

...Ike's KB wasn't really decreased though. His hilt attacks are generally stronger than his moves in 2.1.

So wait.... doesn't that make him like Roy?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hilt puts you at risk, though. People weren't hitting with the hilt much in 2.1, because the hilt requires more thoughtful spacing.

 

[tripwire]

Just have Fox and Falco switch Laser guns would fix all complaints....

And Ike and Roy are so different. Ike is still strong with out his sweetspot hilts.

Roy never felt weaker after playing Marth all day.

 

[GaretHax]

Fox was a ground based character with poor priority in a game dominated by high-priority air-based characters.
Though he did really well in Japan for a while, love me some YUI and all those other crazy Foxes. (Shame most quit or switched mains.)

Wolf, while a generally good and interesting character, literally got bodied by 3/4 of the chaingrabs or silly things in Brawl (including many simply successful playstyles)

Falco ended up mid tier imo because he fit both, the best with his high priority airgame and ability to actually link moves together/trap people into really bad situations, and the least because that laser was unholy. Thank god for the easier powershielding.

I liked how they tried to differentiate between the space animals however, its just that uniqueness wears off fast and you get left with the fact that two of the three just can't compete in Brawl's environment. To me that is poor design.

 

[Magus420]

An average +1 damage with hilt and -1 to middle of the sword is not comparable to Roy's 3/5 damage&growth and 1/2 or less base knockback on tips... The closest would be something like Ganon/CF's u-airs which do 1-2 more damage towards the inside.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fox was a ground based character with poor priority in a game dominated by high-priority air-based characters.
Though he did really well in Japan for a while, love me some YUI and all those other crazy Foxes. (Shame most quit or switched mains.)

Wolf, while a generally good and interesting character, literally got bodied by 3/4 of the chaingrabs or silly things in Brawl (including many simply successful playstyles)

Falco ended up mid tier imo because he fit both, the best with his high priority airgame and ability to actually link moves together/trap people into really bad situations, and the least because that laser was unholy. Thank god for the easier powershielding.

I liked how they tried to differentiate between the space animals however, its just that uniqueness wears off fast and you get left with the fact that two of the three just can't compete in Brawl's environment. To me that is poor design.

The current metagame is run by Meta Knight, Ice Climbers and Olimar, three of the strongest characters on the ground. Sounds to me like you don't understand the metagame, which is fine in general, but you shouldn't be making assumptions of a character design you don't understand.

You can't help some of those issues, just like Fox and Falco can't help being zero-to-death'd by most of the cast in high-level play. We do the best we can, as do Wolf players.

Falco is one of the best characters in the game, and all three characters can reasonably compete in competitive play in Brawl.

If characters need to all play very similarly in order to be competitively viable, it's not hard to argue that it's a poor game engine, rather than poor character design, that gets them there.

 

[The_NZA]

Here's my question: If the logic is "Fox's amazing 6 frame usmash that can be done out of most movement options, can be comboed into with a jab or a shine, and is outrageously powerful considering its versatility in its speed, range, cooldown, and location (its equally good no matter where on the stage you do it) is balanced because Fox can be comboed to death out of a grab by most of the cast," then what about Wolf, who doesn't have an abusive smash, aerial or even shine, but is heavier than his spacie brothers. Won't he then inevitably fall to the lowest rung of project m? Does he need to have some sort of abusive silly mechanic to make him viable?

If so, I vote his uair having the horizontal knock back of link's up b or something equally as silly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wolf's D-Smash is pretty abusive, and his U-Smash has range that isn't paralleled between the other space animals, as well as crazy runjump potential. He's doing pretty well for himself overall.

 

[The_NZA]

His Dsmash is in no way comparable to Fox's usmash, and while his usmash has range over space animals, it isn't unusual in its power. If he's doing well for himself and he's only more comboable than fox, then why is there reason to believe lowering fox's usmash power would make him weak or bad? It would only make him fair.

 

[Deleted member]

Half the characters in P:M are gay

maybe if half the characters you play against are sonic.

at least in a raw comparison to sonic everything else is much more tolerable.

 

[GaretHax]

The current metagame is run by Meta Knight, Ice Climbers and Olimar, three of the strongest characters on the ground. Sounds to me like you don't understand the metagame, which is fine in general, but you shouldn't be making assumptions of a character design you don't understand.

You can't help some of those issues, just like Fox and Falco can't help being zero-to-death'd by most of the cast in high-level play. We do the best we can, as do Wolf players.

Falco is one of the best characters in the game, and all three characters can reasonably compete in competitive play in Brawl.

If characters need to all play very similarly in order to be competitively viable, it's not hard to argue that it's a poor game engine, rather than poor character design, that gets them there.

Erm if you are referring to melee space animals I would be interested in learning why you feel they play very similarly. As far as Brawl goes, it is true I dropped out and stopped paying any real attention to the scene about 2 years ago, but last I checked Metaknight dominates ground or otherwise. Olimar I can't comfortably say very much about, but ice climbers are still ice climbers I imagine. I also feel like I have been misinterpreted again, I really need to work on clarifying what actually matters, back when I still kept up with Brawl (to a degree) alot of the most important exchanges, approaches, and spacing elements took place when airborne. When I say air-based I'm attempting to describe characters who have excellent ground to air (and vice versa) options, commanding airials that may or may not be disjointed (all three characters you listed have both iirc), etc. Anyway I just always felt Fox and Wolf had a very hard time approaching or controlling space because of how easily their arials and, to a lesser extent, ground based advances get stuffed. Falco's laser saves him from a similar fate (plus his priority and ability to pseudo-approach). And the 0-Deaths are... discouraging to say the least, in melee it makes more sense since the spacies are so overwhelming, but in Brawl it just felt undeserved. Anyway I really can't speak too much into the current brawl meta (especially since the reality of the matter is that you know far more about it than i do lol) but I did use to enjoy space animal combo videos and it was nice that Fox had a semi-decent mu against meta-knight for a while, so I can't say I hated how they were designed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Erm if you are referring to melee space animals I would be interested in learning why you feel they play very similarly. As far as Brawl goes, it is true I dropped out and stopped paying any real attention to the scene about 2 years ago, but last I checked Metaknight dominates ground or otherwise. Olimar I can't comfortably say very much about, but ice climbers are still ice climbers I imagine. I also feel like I have been misinterpreted again, I really need to work on clarifying what actually matters, back when I still kept up with Brawl (to a degree) alot of the most important exchanges, approaches, and spacing elements took place when airborne. When I say air-based I'm attempting to describe characters who have excellent ground to air (and vice versa) options, commanding airials that may or may not be disjointed (all three characters you listed have both iirc), etc. Anyway I just always felt Fox and Wolf had a very hard time approaching or controlling space because of how easily their arials and, to a lesser extent, ground based advances get stuffed. Falco's laser saves him from a similar fate (plus his priority and ability to pseudo-approach). And the 0-Deaths are... discouraging to say the least, in melee it makes more sense since the spacies are so overwhelming, but in Brawl it just felt undeserved. Anyway I really can't speak too much into the current brawl meta, but I did use to enjoy space animal combo videos and it was nice that Fox had a semi-decent mu against meta-knight for a while.

Meta Knight has really poor horizontal aerial speed outside of special moves, limiting air dominance outside of in edgeguarding and specific matchups. Olimar is pretty vulnerable and controls a crazy amount of space on the ground. Ice Climbers have strong pokes to prevent people from wanting to go into the air, but kill you on a good grab in the ground. Most exchanges are managed from shields or spotdodges, and most other good characters also focus on ground play a lot (Falco, Snake).

Fox isn't so great at approaching or controlling space in Brawl because he has few safe options on the ground and must confound the opponent into getting grabbed or clipped by a shorthop B-Air, etc., but the issue is greatly mitigated through lasers not being easily dealt with from him. Wolf outranges a majority of the cast in shorthop aerials, jabs, Smashes, or his laser. He's one of the best characters at space control, hands-down. If you're having trouble with that as Wolf, you just don't understand the potential of his pokes or general mobility in Brawl. :x

 

[GaretHax]

Fox isn't so great at approaching or controlling space in Brawl because he has few safe options on the ground and must confound the opponent into getting grabbed or clipped by a shorthop B-Air, etc., but the issue is greatly mitigated through lasers not being easily dealt with from him. Wolf outranges a majority of the cast in shorthop aerials, jabs, Smashes, or his laser. He's one of the best characters at space control, hands-down. If you're having trouble with that as Wolf, you just don't understand the potential of his pokes or general mobility in Brawl. :x

Fair enough lol, I probably don't >=p

 

[The_NZA]

I still don't see any justifications for why Fox needs the usmash that he does.

Its well agreed that he is the best character in smash because of some design elements that are uncharacteristically strong in him
It is agreed on that he is a fun "best" character because most of the cast has amazing combos on him providing for a high technical tug of war where one mistake can cost you dearly

Where role does the amazing usmash that leads to cast death at 90% play into this picture?

I bet it could be nerfed, and he would still be considered by everyone to be amazing with amazing tools. I don't have an issue with crazy shines and a technical ceiling through the roof. Its the simple **** that rewards you unusually that i have issues with, like usmash or Ike's 2.1 braindead smashes.

Fox's Usmash is only more brain dead.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fox's U-smash is not universally good at everything and is fed mainly off his other, actually good attributes, like his dash dance, vertical mixups, and nair. Take away U-smash and Fox has to be dumb for 30 more percent. Take away Fox's dumb stuff and he can't be dumb and you're left with a mediocre character with a fast kill move.

 

[The_NZA]

What you perceive as "dumb" i perceive as exciting and technical. Hard to master, good at the conquer. Its true that most of the cast has good tools against him. It's also true that when played optimally, fox has maybe more tools than anyone else. But I'm a big believer in risk/reward balance and if you try and get technical with fox and you mess up and get grabbed-- your gonna get stomped .

But usmash is fricken easy to track with, move with, and as you pointed out kink, lead into. There's no other smash as versatile that does as much damage, already tacked onto a crazy good character.

 

[Deleted member]

honestly it seems like the best tempo control characters in this game like sheik and peach are better than fox anyway even before risk/reward assessment, i don't see what all the ******** is about.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm probably the 100th guy asking this again, but what's making Peach and Sheik good/better than Melee or what have you?

And how do your opinion of things switch so fast lol? Like your views on Sheik's grabs.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm probably the 100th guy asking this again, but what's making Peach and Sheik good/better than Melee or what have you?

And how do your opinion of things switch so fast lol? Like your views on Sheik's grabs.

small neutrals, more normalized movement speed (the slow characters are faster), much improved recoveries, and those 2 characters in particular are much more fluid to play in this game than in melee.

i change my opinions because i spend a lot of time testing things and learning.

i actually like sheik's downthrow now more than i like melee downthrow because the speed is a fair trade for the reliability and it makes sheik a better teams character. win/win IMO

that and my sheik is absurd lol.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Not being an ass and leaving your opinion to change is a great trait to have as a human being.

I still think Fox's design is fine if silly and shouldn't be changed though.

 

[The_NZA]

I guess the reason why the usmash is being brought up by me (even if fox IMO is not breaking the game and may not be top dog) is because its uncharactristically powerful considering melee and PM characters. I strongly believe if Fox had come out tomorrow in PM and wasn't a melee vet, it would be changed. Therefore, it ought to be changed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Like it or not, though, there's a large priority in keeping the Melee veterans intact.

Still, it's not as simple as that. Sheik's D-Throw was changed primarily because it made for really degenerate gameplay, but it's important to figure out the difference between "really powerful" and "overcentralizing and dumb."

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So these are all the changes to fox in the PAL version. (found on smash wika, so take it with a grain of salt)

• Fox's up smash weakened, damage dropped from 18% in NTSC to 17% in PAL, knockback dramatically weakened, for example, in PAL-version Peach would die to Fox's Usmash at as high of a % as 83%, whereas in the NTSC version Peach only needs to be at 71% to be Star KO'd at Final Destination uncharged. A fully charged fully stale upsmash could kill Peach at 55% on Final Destination.
• Fox's down and forward smashes are less powerful.
• Fox was made lighter.
• Fox's forward aerial has more range on its hitbox.
• Fox can tech out of Falco's down throw in PAL.

The only change falco received is that his dair only spikes the first half of the move, the second half sends them slightly up.
So what does everyone think about the PAL nerfs? Personally everything except the up smash and the fair range buff seems excessive, and even the up smash nerf seems a little too hard.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The people that complain about fox just need to get better. The character shouldn't be nerfed because (relative) noobs havent learned the matchup well enough.

A message to those people: Get off these boards, stop petitioning for nerfs, pick up your controller and practice. Go to tournaments. Stay off here until you can beat good players. Then we will care about your opinion.

 

[JOE!]

I think that is a healthy viewpoint when looking through the "melee lens".

Fox I've always been fine with sans a few moves here and there, namely Usmash and Uair (it being able to combo as well as kill).


Falco however, that dude seems to be able to just do crap for free cus of lasers and blooping (c) neko.

 

[ELI-mination]

The people that complain about fox just need to get better. The character shouldn't be nerfed because (relative) noobs havent learned the matchup well enough.

A message to those people: Get off these boards, stop petitioning for nerfs, pick up your controller and practice. Go to tournaments. Stay off here until you can beat good players. Then we will care about your opinion.

This is an unbelievably elitist viewpoint and a very brainwashed, foolish post.

The whole "just get better" argument is fine but seriously, when a game is being designed the design decisions matter. P:M is a creation in-progress, it's not a completed game. So discussion about the game's design choices are relevant. Not like melee, which is a finished game, which cannot be altered so everything in the game just has to be dealt with.

Also, the hilariously stupid assertion that anyone who suggests tweaks/nerfs/buffs/changes to a game's design is simply not good at the game should really be eradicated from all discussion. I'm a perfect example of a player who is way better than the vast majority of smashers, especially those who post here, and I don't use that as any means to further my point of view and say that my skill must = my opinion matters more. Get your head out of your ass before you ignorantly speak about who can or cannot post on the boards based on absolutely nothing other than they disagree with your brainwashed point of view and must therefore be whining.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You play Project M, Sveet?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes I do.

This is an unbelievably elitist viewpoint and a very brainwashed, foolish post.

The whole "just get better" argument is fine but seriously, when a game is being designed the design decisions matter. P:M is a creation in-progress, it's not a completed game. So discussion about the game's design choices are relevant. Not like melee, which is a finished game, which cannot be altered so everything in the game just has to be dealt with.

Also, the hilariously stupid assertion that anyone who suggests tweaks/nerfs/buffs/changes to a game's design is simply not good at the game should really be eradicated from all discussion. I'm a perfect example of a player who is way better than the vast majority of smashers, especially those who post here, and I don't use that as any means to further my point of view and say that my skill must = my opinion matters more. Get your head out of your *** before you ignorantly speak about who can or cannot post on the boards based on absolutely nothing other than they disagree with your brainwashed point of view and must therefore be whining.

And this point of view is what will ruin the game. Lets just remove anything from the game that takes skill to beat! Plenty of people can beat fox, but some random noobs on smashboards think hes overpowered, so that must mean he is. The problem is that when the players have a say in the design process there is a conflict of interest. If nobody can beat something by trying new strategies or improving their mechanics, then sure nerf it. But when people haven't exhausted their options and really aren't that good at the game, there is no reason at all to listen to them when they say something should be nerfed. If you can't understand that, I suggest you go back to the WoW boards or something.

 

[ELI-mination]

No, what will "ruin the game" is clinging on to perceptions of "skill" that are rooted in something inherently flawed. Believe it or not, melee has plenty of flaws. There is no good reason to cling on to a traditional belief simply because it existed in the past.
For many people, melee is NOT the best standard to live up to. And calling people who want to precipitate change in the interest of ideal game design "noobs" is contradictory to the definition of progress.
Why not just play brawl minus if you think there isn't a limit and a reasoning process that goes into the game's design?
Open discussion is the ONLY thing that moves things forward. Just because somebody voices their opinion, that doesn't mean it would get implemented. However all, if not most points of view should at least be viewed or considered to some degree or another. The idea that people are "noobs" for not viewing things in your own personal brainwashed perception of what makes a game better is an idea that holds back progress in general.

Perhaps I can be a bit harsh here but I'm seriously just sick and tired of melee elitists who hold to the notion that their game is the ultimate arbiter of what makes smash bros good and that if you have an issue with the game, you should just learn to deal with it rather than put forth any opinion that could potentially improve it. P:M presents that opportunity because it's a mod. I've been in the competitive smash community since 2005 when I first played PC Chris at a convention and he basically whooped me and that's when I learned all about it. But I don't hold to any one smash game as the meaning of what smash bros SHOULD be. That is an example of something that should be up to the community as a whole, not individual points of view depending on player skill, melee specifically as a game, or tech skill in general.

If there was really a problem with 'remove anything that takes skill to beat', then why should Sonic ever be changed for example? Sonic takes a degree of skill to beat, but that has little to do with WHY he was/should be changed. There are many reasons to make alterations to a character or the game mechanics, it's not as simple as "its hard to beat so nerf it". Once you get this idea through your head, perhaps then you can offer a more enlightened contribution to this discussion. Until then, you are spewing nothing but prejudicial judgments on those who weigh in their points of view in hopes of idealistic progress.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sveet, I'd call your initial reaction kind of short-sighted, or, at best, worded poorly.

Some people/characters can beat Sonic, but he's still widely considered to be a very polarizing character. The fact that people can beat him doesn't make his character design good or even acceptable (though I'm not saying it is or isn't; just a simple example).

Also, there are many players who can and do beat Fox players, but still think the game would benefit from his being changed. It's silly to assume that disagreeing with some parts of his design equates to "I can't beat him and he's overpowered; nerf, pls". I understand your sentiment, but it's making sweeping generalizations that aren't an accurate depiction of many of the people campaigning for changes.

I think there are a lot of design choices in Melee and PM that are not conducive to maximizing depth, entertainment, and/or ideal levels of balance, but that in and of itself does not make me a random scrub whose opinion doesn't matter.

 

[ELI-mination]

Sveet, I'd call your initial reaction kind of short-sighted, or, at best, worded poorly.

Some people/characters can beat Sonic, but he's still widely considered to be a very polarizing character. The fact that people can beat him doesn't make his character design good or even acceptable (though I'm not saying it is or isn't; just a simple example).

Also, there are many players who can and do beat Fox players, but still think he needs to be changed. It's silly to assume that disagreeing with some parts of his design equates to "I can't beat him and he's overpowered; nerf, pls". I understand your sentiment, but it's making sweeping generalizations that aren't an accurate depiction of many of the people campaigning for changes.

I think there are a lot of design choices in Melee and PM that are not conducive to maximizing depth and ideal levels of balance, but that in and of itself does not make me a random scrub.

I hope this isn't a response to me, because you just repeated what I said, not disagreeing with it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Nah, it was for Sveet. I edited my initial post. I should've quoted him.