On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[CORY]

If nobody can beat something by trying new strategies or improving their mechanics, then sure nerf it. But when people haven't exhausted their options and really aren't that good at the game, there is no reason at all to listen to them when they say something should be nerfed.

hello 2.1 ike/lucario.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

And yet. if you cant exploit fox's many flaws and beat him, why is it fair to nerf him? At the top level, fox is really good, but he isn't polarizing or even that dominant. The only thing nerfing him will accomplish is make noobs feel better when they play against fox players while completely removing the character as a competitive staple.

If you want ideas on how to beat fox with any character, I would be more than happy to help you.


Oh yeah, the sonic changes topic: completely unrelated. There is changing something because it is overpowered, and there is changing something because the design is "boring". Another good example is sheik's dthrow. It wasn't really overpowered, it was just "boring".


@ELI-mination, I don't know who has traumatized you in the past, but dont take it out on me. My knowledge of competitive games is not limited to melee, I have a lot of experience in games that had patches. If you want to discuss WC3 patch ~1.20 where Spirit walkers got buffed in order to counter NEs mass cyclone strategy, even though certain top orc players (notably grubby) could still beat the best NE players in the world, I can explain to you why that was important to the metagame. If you want to discuss why phantom lancer is borderline broken in DotA2 and what things can be done to fix it, I'm game. But don't sit here and call me names like you know anything about me, my experience, whatever.

Also, you seem to be really offended by "noob". Hit too close to home? lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, at high-level play in Melee, you can only realistically play a rather specific subset of characters. Given that the ideal for Project M (a game that is currently in development) is to make every character realistically viable, there are a lot of different strengths that must be considered when it comes to a reasonable form of balance.

As an example, I pose this question to you, Sveet--How do I not get completely molested by a Fox player who is making the most of his mobility and generally safe options when I'm playing as Ivysaur? I honestly don't think that Ivysaur can ever, ever, ever win against a Fox player playing to his strengths. Whether that is a problem with Ivysaur or a problem with Fox is certainly something to consider, but the fact that Fox has been around longer doesn't make his design any better for the game as a whole than Ivysaur's, or, say, King Dedede's (another character who struggles in the matchup).

 

[ELI-mination]

@sveet: I'm not offended by anything you say personally, I'm offended by elitism in general. Especially when it comes from a 'because melee' point of view.
Your first paragraph about Fox there in your last reply shows the ignorance I've been referring to; Fox is NOT some kind of well-designed marvel that deserves praise. The only reason that view is held or put forth is because of melee. It has nothing to do with an objective approach to his design.

 

[Vashimus]

I'm not offended by anything you say personally, I'm offended by elitism in general.

Aren't we all, Eli? Aren't we all.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

To be fair, at high-level play in Melee, you can only realistically play a rather specific subset of characters. Given that the ideal for Project M (a game that is currently in development) is to make every character realistically viable, there are a lot of different strengths that must be considered when it comes to a reasonable form of balance.

As an example, I pose this question to you, Sveet--How do I not get completely molested by a Fox player who is making the most of his mobility and generally safe options when I'm playing as Ivysaur? I honestly don't think that Ivysaur can ever, ever, ever win against a Fox player playing to his strengths. Whether that is a problem with Ivysaur or a problem with Fox is certainly something to consider, but the fact that Fox has been around longer doesn't make his design any better for the game as a whole than Ivysaur's, or, say, King Dedede's (another character who struggles in the matchup).

Well im melee there are around 10 "very viable" characters and another 5-10 that only a few people had done very well with.


As for the Ivysaur vs Fox Match-up, I agree fox dominates it. I think the problem is inherently ivysuars, since he also struggles in most other match-ups. I could probably do a whole write up about how I think Ivy should be buffed so that he is viable, at the moment I consider him bottom tier. I havent played as or against any DDD so no comment there.


@ELI-mination: I really dont understand why you're so mad. Like, I never called you a noob or anything, I just said I didn't want random noobs begging for nerfs on the boards and they should better spend their time playing the game and getting better.

And fox is a pretty good well rounded character. There is no point nerfing him when he has noticeable flaws and developers have already stated they want to bring the low tiers and brawl character up to fox's level and not the reverse. Again, if you need help figuring out how to beat fox, I would be more than happy to help you.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

The people that complain about fox just need to get better. The character shouldn't be nerfed because (relative) noobs havent learned the matchup well enough.

A message to those people: Get off these boards, stop petitioning for nerfs, pick up your controller and practice. Go to tournaments. Stay off here until you can beat good players. Then we will care about your opinion.

This is most likely the reason, I mean we all get where you're coming from man, but I think you need to be careful on how you present yourself. When you say stuff like this, it honestly kinda makes you look like a d bag.

 

[Strong Badam]

also kind of implies that you're better at the game than everyone you're discussing things with, which is probably fine w/ randoms but I'd put hundreds of dollars down on either of Reflex or Eli kicking your ass in tournament Sveet. that kind of logic also turns into a pissing contest where the only person that has any say on character design or balance is Mango, and it's really not how things work out at all.

you imply there's some level of skill where Fox/Falco suddenly become well-balanced/designed and their absurdities are no longer relevant, yet here we are sitting at a level far exceeding your own and this still isn't true. sorry Sveet, but you're probably going to have to come at this discussion from another angle if you want to continue. your attempted elitism only works as far as your own skill goes, and is approximately contentless in argumentation.

 

[Vashimus]

Basically what Mr. Pickle and Strong Bad said and what I was afraid of saying.

In Smash, I can't really call anyone out on being a douche since, I'll be real, when compared to Eli or Reflex, I'm essentially a nobody, so I just stayed quiet. :x

 

[Bryonato]

@ELI-mination: I really dont understand why you're so mad. Like, I never called you a noob or anything

Also, you seem to be really offended by "noob". Hit too close to home? lol

>.>

Basically what Mr. Pickle and Strong Bad said and what I was afraid of saying.

In Smash, I can't really call anyone out on being a douche since, I'll be real, when compared to Eli or Reflex, I'm essentially a nobody, so I just stayed quiet. :x

Just because someone is better than you at Smash doesn't make you a nobody. If someone is being a prick don't be afraid to say so just because they're better than you at Smash. Sveet, stop being a prick.

 

[Deleted member]

i think both points of view are bad. saying "just get better" is equally extremist as "nerf everything". have some sense of moderation.

agree @ reflex

i'd be okay with a pal-esque alteration of fox/falco since it worked so well for sheik.

edit: fox is anything but a well-rounded character. fox is horribly polarizing and it's very obvious how many characters and their attributes were designed around him. that doesn't mean that he needs to be changed but come on.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd put hundreds of dollars down on either of Reflex or Eli kicking your *** in tournament Sveet.

I'd be happy to take your money any time Strong Baddy


But in all seriousness, the point of this project was always to bring the bad character up to the top tier's level, not nerf them. Fox in particular lacks direct range and priority. Fox also falls fast which means he is more susceptible to combos and tech chases than other characters. In melee, there wasn't many characters that could directly challenge his nair/bair and win, and for those that could, fox was forced to use his mobility advantage to win. In P:M, more characters can directly challenge his nair/bair, not to mention characters that are more mobile than him, have better pojectiles, better recoveries, etc. Fox is much less of a problem in P:M than he was in melee.

So, yes, I do think if you honestly think fox is overpowered and deserves a nerf, you need to get better and just learn how to beat him.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah okay, you got anything else? perhaps something relevant to the rest of my post, which kind of destroys your "get better" argument? which also actually doesn't say anything about the merits of either character's design, and we've heard 800 times already.

"get better" works very well as a competitors mindset, but very poorly as a game designer's mindset. it leads to a very narrow view of solutions, and if we applied it to everything we'd never ever change a character negatively even if they clearly deserve it. furthermore I could see the "get better" argument if you applied it to your opponents characters, but I almost never see SSBM players do it. you see people choosing melee top tiers in this game and then john when they lose to a new character, what kind of bull**** hypocrisy is that? rose-tinted melee goggles have no place here, and only serve to perpetuate the toxicity of SSBM somewhere it doesn't belong. sorry Sveet, but the point of this game is to create a sequel to SSBM, not SSBM 1.1. if you're looking to use your SSBM inputs in a new game and perform well without anymore effort, try SD Remix. that sounds more along the lines of what you're looking for.

 

[Deleted member]

if you think fox needs range or priority, you're playing him straight wrong.

 

[Oro?!]

Think you both need to chill...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah okay, you got anything else? perhaps something relevant to the rest of my post, which kind of destroys your "get better" argument?

Not really. I mean, you don't really say anything except you think you're better than me. I don't know how to respond to that other than saying I have a winning record against you and I don't think that will change. I mean, I guess I can take it as a compliment that you can't beat my fox therefore you need to nerf him in order to win.

"get better" works very well as a competitors mindset, but very poorly as a game designer's mindset.

Which is why there is a conflict of interest when a player suggests design changes. Honestly, it is one of the most dangerous things about the "designers" of this project also being fierce competitors.

 

[JOE!]

>Clearly sweats fox
>Butthurt when discussion about possible changes occurs

You even said yourself above that his Nair/Bair could roll over people in melee, and if that didn't work he could always out-maneuver them: where does he lose out? Why wouldn't somebody pick fox?

Even better, say Fox came out tomorrow in a new update, a never seen-before character. What would you think of him without the 12 years of meta behind him? Even with said 12 years, are you saying there is -nothing- you would change if you could?

 

[Scythe]

oh my what's going on over here

 

[Oracle]

Sveet your point of 'get better' only works when you look only at the side of the person playing against space animals. Whether or not its possible to beat a space animal is completely irrelevant, since it obviously is possible. The problem is not so much about why people lose to spacie players; its more about why they win. The vast majority of spacie players, even including some at the top level, have absolutely garbage fundamentals. They don't read their opponent, they don't always have impeccable spacing, they don't adapt to character differences or playsyle choices, all because their character's pressure and/or defenseive strategy is so powerful that they actually don't need anything but to improve the speed at which they can do nair shines or pillar on shield. That is the DEFINITION of a broken character. Not because its unbeatable, but because its so good you virtually don't have to know anything else about the game to win.

MattDotZeb is a good example of this. He does incredibly well in the Midwest PM scene, which is pretty stacked, and he doesn't even own a wii. His gameplan and strategy barely change between facing characters and different players, he's just really really good at doing falco stuff. I'm not dissing MDZ or any of the other melee players who do this in project m, since abusing these tactics this way is probably the best way to succeed in melee, and they're definitely really good at melee, but the fact that this is even possible in project m is disgusting.

Interaction is what makes competition so deep and rewarding; in a good game, I don't just have to execute a set strategy better than my opponent can execute his, I have to completely outsmart him, adapt to what he's doing, prevent him from adapting to what I'm doing, and so much more. The level of power that these techniques provide takes much of the interaction out, which denies the players of that incredible facet of the game.

 

[BTmoney]

Here is an example I like to reference. Ganon has a 0-death CG/combo on Fox and Falco that he can abuse left, right and sideways (performing the regrab repeatedly is fairly difficult so that's why people don't often opt for it). It even works on small stages.

Now because Ganon can abuse Fox's fall speed and fragile qualities does that mean that Fox somehow is not broken and his fall speed and flaws balance him or at worst Ganon can hang with Fox in the MU? No. Fox never has to give Ganon a grab, ever. Fox and Falco run trains on Ganon all day and there is nothing he can actually do about it if the opponent doesn't let him. If Ganon (or in this case the rest of melee cast) does not have the tools to exploit Fox's weaknesses does it actually matter if he has any? No.

Even if that is completely untrue, here is the concept I am getting at. If Fox can (not does, can) win neutral 100% of the time and force approaches and proceed to punish approaches by taking away the opposition's options then it doesn't matter that he is a fast faller and light because you don't ever get to abuse that. Of course Fox players make mistakes but Fox clearly is broken in melee.

Basically, citing Fox's flaws when Fox doesn't have to give you an opening (unlike most if not all other characters) is not a reason why he is balanced. He clearly isn't balanced.

I am not pro-nerf though. It'd be more fun, at least, if other characters got slightly better.

I am against all these ad hoc and impromptu nerf suggestions as a whole. I wouldn't care if Fox got a PAL usmash. Go ahead and do that.

It is way, way too early to want to nerf anything unless something is blatantly offensive.

 

[Deleted member]

That is the DEFINITION of a broken character. Not because its unbeatable, but because its so good you virtually don't have to know anything else about the game to win.

A broken character is just a character that "breaks" standard game play by playing to a different set of rules that the rest of the cast does not adhere to. These characters are not necessarily too good, it's just that the polarization of the defining "broken" attributes make them the most likely means to define the character in a competitive sense.

For example, Melee Fox is a broken character; his ability to choose when to attack is a defining aspect to his character. That does not necessarily make him too good, but he's certainly polarized around that attribute in every way. You could make the claim that shine is the same way, but towards the progression to higher level play it just becomes a very powerful tactic that can be interacted with and around.

In the same way, PM Sonic is a broken character; his speed is immensely polarizing to the point where the entire game becomes warped around Sonic rather than standard smash interaction. That does not mean that Sonic is too good, but it is likely that Sonic is amazingly good simply by how polarized he is as a character.

Polarized, or "broken" attributes are typically resolved by normalizing them- that is, to remove the polarized aspect to them. That said, I think up smash is a powerful move that is fine on its own. If you really feel that Fox is broken, you should make a motion to have his ability to choose when to attack diminished to some degree. And then everyone will hate you for ruining the strategic beauty of the character.

I don't agree with most of your post, but frankly any one person's opinions are not as important as spreading blatant misinformation is.

 

[Oracle]

Thats exactly what I said lol. damn mow even when you agree with people you cant agree with the

 

[Deleted member]

Fox's U-smash just seems like overkill considering all of his other attributes. Look at it this way - you could make Fox's D-smash kill a bit earlier and it likely wouldn't affect how he performs all that much...but why the hell would you want to do that? He certainly doesn't need it. Same logic applies to his U-smash imo. The extreme power just makes him even better in areas he doesn't need to be better in. Having it KO a little bit later seems like a fair change to me.

 

[BTmoney]

Fox's U-smash just seems like overkill considering all of his other attributes. Look at it this way - you could make Fox's D-smash kill a bit earlier and it likely wouldn't affect how he performs all that much...but why the hell would you want to do that? He certainly doesn't need it. Same logic applies to his U-smash imo. The extreme power just makes him even better in areas he doesn't need to be better in. Having it KO a little bit later seems like a fair change to me.

No that's making a best character better which is entirely nonsensical. We/I just want to leave him alone and give other characters better options.

 

[JOE!]

Such as anti spacy technology which leads to characters with anti anti spacy technology being awesome.

 

[Deleted member]

No that's making a best character better which is entirely nonsensical.

That was kinda my point. He'd still be the (arguable) best if his Usmash killed a little bit later. The extreme power of the move is like adding more icing to an already heavily-iced cake.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

>Clearly sweats fox
>Butthurt when discussion about possible changes occurs

You even said yourself above that his Nair/Bair could roll over people in melee, and if that didn't work he could always out-maneuver them: where does he lose out? Why wouldn't somebody pick fox?

Even better, say Fox came out tomorrow in a new update, a never seen-before character. What would you think of him without the 12 years of meta behind him? Even with said 12 years, are you saying there is -nothing- you would change if you could?

I actually don't play a whole lot of fox. He was the character I had the most tournament success with in Melee. I have also spent a lot of tournament time with Marth, Falco and Sheik, and I play the entire cast in friendlies (including bottom tiers, sans kirby just cuz). My avatar is only fox because my group of friends that I play DotA with are mostly smashers and we formed a smash themed team called "1v1 Fox Only, No Items, Final Destination". This is our team logo. In P:M I mostly play Toon Link though I i've played most chars at least a little bit.

Firstly, Fox doesn't win every trade. His nair and bair are both punishable by CCing at lower percents. They also aren't truly safe on shield. Check out this thread for specifics on Fox's aerials vs shields. (edit: here is another good thread) He falls fast and is therefore easy to force into tech chases. Grab combos do wonders on him too.

If Fox came out tomorrow, nobody would think he was broken. You have had the current form of most of the characters in P:M for around 6 months while fox in his current form has been around for more than 10 years. The knowledge of the character we know as Fox is well beyond the knowledge we have of every new character put together. People are already completely confident in executing his block string mixups, shine spiking, uthrow->uair, waveshine, etc. You think if those techniques had never been seen before, people would think they are OP instantly? Nobody would even care if fox could uthrow->uair, EVERYONE ELSE HAS A THROW->KO MOVE. People would think its cute that he can follow his low damage blink move with a wavedash. They would think it is awesome. Shine spikes would be hot **** (YOU HIT THEM OUT OF THEIR RECOVERY WITH THAT SMALL THING?).

People should be spending as much time as they can trying to beat spacies with every character. The faster they learn how to out space on that precise of a level, how to act out of their shield with their fastest attacks, their chain grabs and reaction tech chases, and everything else that is required to beat spacies, the better.

Sveet your point of 'get better' only works when you look only at the side of the person playing against space animals. Whether or not its possible to beat a space animal is completely irrelevant, since it obviously is possible. The problem is not so much about why people lose to spacie players; its more about why they win. The vast majority of spacie players, even including some at the top level, have absolutely garbage fundamentals. They don't read their opponent, they don't always have impeccable spacing, they don't adapt to character differences or playsyle choices, all because their character's pressure and/or defenseive strategy is so powerful that they actually don't need anything but to improve the speed at which they can do nair shines or pillar on shield. That is the DEFINITION of a broken character. Not because its unbeatable, but because its so good you virtually don't have to know anything else about the game to win.

MattDotZeb is a good example of this. He does incredibly well in the Midwest PM scene, which is pretty stacked, and he doesn't even own a wii. His gameplan and strategy barely change between facing characters and different players, he's just really really good at doing falco stuff. I'm not dissing MDZ or any of the other melee players who do this in project m, since abusing these tactics this way is probably the best way to succeed in melee, and they're definitely really good at melee, but the fact that this is even possible in project m is disgusting.

I don't know where to start here. When you say "they don't read their opponent, ... adapt to character or play style choices" I have to wonder if you even know what these terms mean.
You also post as if the character has no limitations only the player's fingers. "they actually don't need anything but to improve the speed at which they can do nair shines or pillar on shield". Those techniques are quite easy to beat by any competent player, especially if they are doing them as mindlessly as you claim. Even if fox did frame perfect nair shines on a shield, he has at least 8 simultaneous frames of lag, which is more than enough time to a) grab him, b) nair out of shield (depends on character) c) shine out of shield d) wavedash e) any other fast move.

And MattDotZeb actually has quite good fundamentals. He is very patient and is quite aware of stage control with all of his actions.

Oh yeah, and you don't know what broken is. Broken is when "get better" is no longer a valid solution for the player. When improving your spacing, timing, observation and decision skills still doesn't allow you to win.

Interaction is what makes competition so deep and rewarding; in a good game, I don't just have to execute a set strategy better than my opponent can execute his, I have to completely outsmart him, adapt to what he's doing, prevent him from adapting to what I'm doing, and so much more. The level of power that these techniques provide takes much of the interaction out, which denies the players of that incredible facet of the game.

I agree that interaction is a good thing, but having your strategy planned out ahead of time is not a fault. If you know the match-up well enough, you will know your strategies ahead of time. You won't jump into the game and go, "Oh **** i've never seen mario use fireball before, let me figure out new things on the spot to beat it", you already know how to respond to that strategy. At that point mario must either execute his strategy better, or change it. When both players know (or think they know) the most effective strategies, both will simply attempt to execute them better. This is a sign of maturity, not a bad thing.

Here is an example I like to reference. Ganon has a 0-death CG/combo on Fox and Falco that he can abuse left, right and sideways (performing the regrab repeatedly is fairly difficult so that's why people don't often opt for it). It even works on small stages.

In melee at least, it was technically 14%-200%+, and it is impossible to regrab on reaction until like 50% where it becomes only extremely difficult.

Now because Ganon can abuse Fox's fall speed and fragile qualities does that mean that Fox somehow is not broken and his fall speed and flaws balance him or at worst Ganon can hang with Fox in the MU? No. Fox never has to give Ganon a grab, ever. Fox and Falco run trains on Ganon all day and there is nothing he can actually do about it if the opponent doesn't let him. If Ganon (or in this case the rest of melee cast) does not have the tools to exploit Fox's weaknesses does it actually matter if he has any? No.

Even if that is completely untrue, here is the concept I am getting at. If Fox can (not does, can) win neutral 100% of the time and force approaches and proceed to punish approaches by taking away the opposition's options then it doesn't matter that he is a fast faller and light because you don't ever get to abuse that. Of course Fox players make mistakes but Fox clearly is broken in melee.

A cool trick Linguini used for a long time, he would shield SDI the aerial so that his grab would outspace the shine. This landed him many shield grabs vs spacies and because of his experience vs southern spacie players like Colbol, Shiz and Lambchops, Linguini held that ganon's match-ups with spacies were relatively even. Heres a combo video of his, you can see him beat up a lot of characters (including spacies)

Basically, citing Fox's flaws when Fox doesn't have to give you an opening (unlike most if not all other characters) is not a reason why he is balanced. He clearly isn't balanced.

You make it sound like its not a two player game. Like fox can just run around and the opponent has no choice but to stand in shield and hope fox misses a lcancel. Fox doesn't "win neutral 100% of the time", to say he does is just a hyperbole. If you want tips on how to beat Fox in the neutral, I can help you. A lot of it has to do with controlling your dash dance and a lot to do with controlling his. Depending on the match-up, you will have moves and "zones" that you will win trades with. Many characters can straight up grab fox through his nair. The most important thing is probably knowing how to maximize your punishes. It doesn't matter how many firsthits you get in a game if you can't tech chase him consistently or edgeguard him.

I am not pro-nerf though. It'd be more fun, at least, if other characters got slightly better.

I am against all these ad hoc and impromptu nerf suggestions as a whole. I wouldn't care if Fox got a PAL usmash. Go ahead and do that.

It is way, way too early to want to nerf anything unless something is blatantly offensive.

Im with you on that man. Thats really my #1 argument for not nerfing anything: this game in its current form is REALLY REALLY NEW. There are so many things to be learned, nerfing things will simply have a negative impact on the health of the game.

Fox's U-smash just seems like overkill considering all of his other attributes. Look at it this way - you could make Fox's D-smash kill a bit earlier and it likely wouldn't affect how he performs all that much...but why the hell would you want to do that? He certainly doesn't need it. Same logic applies to his U-smash imo. The extreme power just makes him even better in areas he doesn't need to be better in. Having it KO a little bit later seems like a fair change to me.

He has smash attacks that KO? OMG IMBA NO OTHER CHARACTER HAS KOING SMASH ATTACKS BAN HIM NAAOOW

But honestly, is this really a big deal. I mean, PAL usmash isn't awful or anything, KOing 10-20% later isn't that big of a deal. As long as it keeps its generally useful combo potential and can be used as a KO move at a reasonable percent...

 

[JOE!]

I actually don't play a whole lot of fox. He was the character I had the most tournament success with in Melee. I have also spent a lot of tournament time with Marth, Falco and Sheik, and I play the entire cast in friendlies (including bottom tiers, sans kirby just cuz). My avatar is only fox because my group of friends that I play DotA with are mostly smashers and we formed a smash themed team called "1v1 Fox Only, No Items, Final Destination". This is our team logo. In P:M I mostly play Toon Link though I i've played most chars at least a little bit.

You just came in here defending him hard, with a fox avatar and 2/3 of your char icons as fox

Firstly, Fox doesn't win every trade. His nair and bair are both punishable by CCing at lower percents. They also aren't truly safe on shield. Check out this thread for specifics on Fox's aerials vs shields. (edit: here is another good thread) He falls fast and is therefore easy to force into tech chases. Grab combos do wonders on him too.

At low % he has other means of getting you up to managable % (laser, etc), and vs Shield he has a plethora of options. As others have said (even you) if he finds a situation unfavorable he can just outmaneuver all (but like Sonic) opponents to get back into a favorable one, thus mitigating his weaknesses.

If Fox came out tomorrow, nobody would think he was broken. You have had the current form of most of the characters in P:M for around 6 months while fox in his current form has been around for more than 10 years.

Uhm, did you say nobody would think he's broken because he has been around for 10+ years? The idea was that fox was brand spanking new and people were discovering things such as Up smash, ect for the first time in a situaton where it could be subject to change.

The knowledge of the character we know as Fox is well beyond the knowledge we have of every new character put together. People are already completely confident in executing his block string mixups, shine spiking, uthrow->uair, waveshine, etc. You think if those techniques had never been seen before, people would think they are OP instantly? Nobody would even care if fox could uthrow->uair, EVERYONE ELSE HAS A THROW->KO MOVE. People would think its cute that he can follow his low damage blink move with a wavedash. They would think it is awesome. Shine spikes would be hot **** (YOU HIT THEM OUT OF THEIR RECOVERY WITH THAT SMALL THING?).

You are right with the second half of this: many characters have near auto-combo throw > KO move tactics. Shine tricks would be cute, etc. But a new character that could do allll this stuff while having amazing maneuverability and KO power I'm sure would cause a little uproar if he just came out of nowhere. People are used to him due to years of exposure yes, but that shouldn't be a free ticket from scrutiny.

People should be spending as much time as they can trying to beat spacies with every character. The faster they learn how to out space on that precise of a level, how to act out of their shield with their fastest attacks, their chain grabs and reaction tech chases, and everything else that is required to beat spacies, the better.

See, the thing to notice here is "People should all be practicing vs spacies. People should learn their anti-spacy technology. If they don't have anti-spacy stuff they're boned" and all that while currently valid, doesnt phase you with how the spacies are like on a pedastol while every other character scrambles to have anti-them stuff just to compete?

He has smash attacks that KO? OMG IMBA NO OTHER CHARACTER HAS KOING SMASH ATTACKS BAN HIM NAAOOW

But honestly, is this really a big deal. I mean, PAL usmash isn't awful or anything, KOing 10-20% later isn't that big of a deal. As long as it keeps its generally useful combo potential and can be used as a KO move at a reasonable percent...

Yeah, a smash attack that KO's earlier than like DK's smash attacks and is 900 times easier to land and combo into. 80% for a character who can easily and quickly get you well past that marker is just a bit much, don't you think?

I'm fine with Fox except for just Uair and Up Smash. It's the boid I despise lol.

 

[Shadic]

This thread has made me go off and make this. Somebody should use this as an avatar or something.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

At low % he has other means of getting you up to managable % (laser, etc), and vs Shield he has a plethora of options. As others have said (even you) if he finds a situation unfavorable he can just outmaneuver all (but like Sonic) opponents to get back into a favorable one, thus mitigating his weaknesses.

Because he will try to outmaneuver his opponent does not mean he will be successful. None of his things are quite as safe as you appear to think they are. Fox can't reliably laser camp many characters. He can get a round or two off, but then the opponent has traded 5-8% damage for complete stage control. He isn't actually very safe on shield (as stated in my last post), see shield data threads. The shield trade off generally is, if fox is doing the ultra safe options (such as late aerial->shine->wavedash back) then he isn't actually pressuring as hard as you think, and you are free to wavedash out of shield and reposition. If he is being aggressive, it is a guessing game where he is trying to guess when and how you will escape your shield. The key is to use all of your options and not be very predictable.

Uhm, did you say nobody would think he's broken because he has been around for 10+ years? The idea was that fox was brand spanking new and people were discovering things such as Up smash, ect for the first time in a situaton where it could be subject to change.

Yes, and nobody would think he was broken. Nobody would be doing anything remotely similar to what we consider standard/good fox play. The only reason you think there is something wrong is because people were already good with this character before this game was released.

You are right with the second half of this: many characters have near auto-combo throw > KO move tactics. Shine tricks would be cute, etc. But a new character that could do allll this stuff while having amazing maneuverability and KO power I'm sure would cause a little uproar if he just came out of nowhere. People are used to him due to years of exposure yes, but that shouldn't be a free ticket from scrutiny.

Except fox's smashes aren't really that strong. He has a single smash that KOs around 100-120%, which really isn't that special.

See, the thing to notice here is "People should all be practicing vs spacies. People should learn their anti-spacy technology. If they don't have anti-spacy stuff they're boned" and all that while currently valid, doesnt phase you with how the spacies are like on a pedastol while every other character scrambles to have anti-them stuff just to compete?

I don't mean they should learn it because they are boned otherwise, I mean they should learn it because spacies are the characters who have the most advanced metagames. The fastest way to build your personal and character metagames is to play against spacies.

Yeah, a smash attack that KO's earlier than like DK's smash attacks and is 900 times easier to land and combo into. 80% for a character who can easily and quickly get you well past that marker is just a bit much, don't you think?

I'm fine with Fox except for just Uair and Up Smash. It's the boid I despise lol.

Usmash doesn't KO at 80% except on jigglypuff. On FD he can KO some of the light+floaty characters (ex, marth) around 95%. Plus there are lots of new stages with much bigger blastzones. No johns.

 

[Spiffykins]

Here we can see Fox using his superior tech chasing tools against Pikachu.
The poor rat doesn't stand a chance. Pls nerf. :'(

edit: sorry about the size shadic, I tried to shrink it but somehow it didn't work???

 

[JOE!]

Yes, and nobody would think he was broken. Nobody would be doing anything remotely similar to what we consider standard/good fox play. The only reason you think there is something wrong is because people were already good with this character before this game was released.

And the moment they re-discover his stuff?

I don't mean they should learn it because they are boned otherwise, I mean they should learn it because spacies are the characters who have the most advanced metagames. The fastest way to build your personal and character metagames is to play against spacies.

So, to build up your character to be good they have to beat space animals. Why not Marths and Falcons? Why is it the spacies have the most advanced metas? (serious question: did people flock to them because they were above everyone else?) Spacies still seem to dominate in this respect in that in order to be good you have to beat spacies, it doesn't seem right that you are either a space animal or have anti-spacy tech :/

Also, that image is huge lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

And the moment they re-discover his stuff?

By that time, everything else in the game will be explored at the same extent (relatively). I don't think fox would be the best in the game if every other character had as much time dedicated to them. I don't even think hes the best right now (though hes definitely top tier).

So, to build up your character to be good they have to beat space animals. Why not Marths and Falcons? Why is it the spacies have the most advanced metas? (serious question: did people flock to them because they were above everyone else?) Spacies still seem to dominate in this respect in that in order to be good you have to beat spacies, it doesn't seem right that you are either a space animal or have anti-spacy tech :/

Thats actually a really good question. I mean, if you have an exceptional marth player in your area, by all means play them as much as you can. I only said play against spacies as much as you can is because a) its the topic and b) its obviously a challenging matchup for most people. The point is to challenge yourself as much as possible. Beating Fox and Falco requires you to be able to fight out of your shield exceptionally well. Other than just knowing combos and percents, knowing how to move out of your frames as fast as possible is both something that is helpful for being successful in competitive play and also emphasized specifically when playing against technical spacies.

 

[SpiderMad]

Spoiler

 

[Magus420]

Marth is not floaty btw. He's a semi FFer. Only CF, Falco, Fox, Roy, and DK survive Mewtwo's u-throw more than 1% longer than him. He's right there with Sheik, Link, YL, Ganon, and Bowser.

 

[CyberZixx]

Marth is not floaty btw. He's a semi FFer. Only CF, Falco, Fox, Roy, and DK survive Mewtwo's u-throw more than 1% longer than him. He's right there with Sheik, Link, YL, Ganon, and Bowser.

He feels more floaty in Project M compared to Melee. That is likely causing the confusion.

 

[Shadic]

He shouldn't.

 

[Strong Badam]

Not really. I mean, you don't really say anything except you think you're better than me. I don't know how to respond to that other than saying I have a winning record against you and I don't think that will change. I mean, I guess I can take it as a compliment that you can't beat my fox therefore you need to nerf him in order to win.

my tournament record against you in Project M is 1-0; we have never played each other in tournament in Melee to my knowledge, and we probably won't either. that game is really bad and I don't play it anymore. Evo will be the last time I ever enter a Melee tournament.

more importantly however I am continually amused by your incessant desire to ignore the issue. let's assume for a moment that you're better than me at this game (which you're not, nor will you ever be). this doesn't suddenly make you better than Reflex, or Eli, or the large number of people I have beaten in tournament that you would get demolished by such as Metroid, Kirk, Vro, and Oracle. this is why your argument falls apart: "get better" only works if it's coming from the absolute best player, which you are not and never will be. do you have anything else to bring to the table, or are you going to continue to pretend that you're better than everyone here, which you objectively aren't? if you don't I'm afraid I have no choice but to put you on my ignore list with such toxic members as Bubbaking and Varist. I'm hoping that you're not that bad, but all evidence points towards it. make your choice.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Strong Bad you have proven to me that you have no desire to ever have a reasonable discussion with me. I used to think you were cool, I even housed you when you needed a place to stay. The entire time you were at my house you were a complete **** to me and all the friends I had over. Since that time you have gone out of your way to be a tool, at least to me, in every conversation. What is your problem anyways?

 

[CyberZixx]

This is going to end in a hype-ass money match ain't it?