On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[Fortress | Sveet]

:/ I hate april fools, nobody will talk seriously. Can't go on reddit or facebook. Apparently smashboards either.

Falcon is definitely top tier atm

 

[CyberZixx]

Why do you think he is top tier? I have been seeing people saying he is mid tier level. What has been changed about him to make him top tier with the new buffed characters?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I don't play against Falcon enough to know how good he is in 2.5b, everyone that I regularly play with, asides from myself, shies away from fast characters because their fingers can't keep up with the button pushes needed to maintain their momentum.
He seems pretty good, but it was my understanding that he was always pretty good yet somewhere in the mid to upper mid range most of the time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I mean, hes like he was in melee (really good) but without a really exploitable recovery (his main weakness). Fox/falco probably still have decent match-ups vs him, but not many characters really could keep up with his speed and range in melee. Even shiek, who was considered one of his worst match-ups, didn't exactly win the neutral but rather won by being able to efficiently tech chase and edgeguard him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzwFrvbxEVQ

 

[Deleted member]

falcon kinda sucks, at least compared to melee/64.

i think sonic is way more loath-able than fox/falco in this game.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I mean his recovery is better, but not enough to rocket him to the top. Up b and side b are just as easy to edge guard as they were in melee, its just the moves are a little easier to sweetspot the ledge. Falcon is a little better, but he isn't top tier by a long shot.

 

[CyberZixx]

Sonic is something else. That style is just a pain to deal with and feels dirty to play.

 

[Oro?!]

Falcon being top tier is the least funny 4/1 joke I have ever heard.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I mean his recovery is better, but not enough to rocket him to the top. Up b and side b are just as easy to edge guard as they were in melee, its just the moves are a little easier to sweetspot the ledge. Falcon is a little better, but he isn't top tier by a long shot.

not just easier to sweetspot, he actually has a sweetspot. In melee sheik could doing standing needles indefinitely on a recovering falcon; his head always sticks above the stage. In P:M he can actually sweetspot so this doesn't happen. This means falcon isn't automatically dead when he recovers low.

I guess falcon still has problems with his shield game, so theres that. His combos are just as good, if not better (gentleman is easier to do, knee sweetspot seems bigger). He has really good match-ups overall (he ***** "big" characters... what a lot of the metagame is right now in P:M). Most people simply don't play Falcon anymore, which is why he is overlooked. Every Falcon main from melee that I know of has stopped playing him in P:M.

 

[tripwire]

Cpt Falcon def isn't Top Tier in PM. Not with Ez mode Fox/Falco/Shiek/Jiggs/ and maybe a few others. He seems safely within mid-high with Marth/Peach.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Marth is still Top 10 easy.

Captain Falcon being top tier has to be a joke. He's good, yes, but he has too many flaws to be above High tier.

 

[Deleted member]

marth isn't nearly top 10. top 15 is pushing it.

 

[Oro?!]

Yeah especially with his hardest matchup becoming much easier. What a **** character.

 

[CyberZixx]

Have you done a Tier list in that thread Umbreon? I'd love to see your take on one even if it's not exact.

 

[Handorin]

Back to the question of why the fox/falco hate, I'd like to present this video from the ancients:

Some people just can't handle how good it is.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah especially with his hardest matchup becoming much easier. What a **** character.

At low level play...maybe? Even that's pushing it? After any reasonable amount of skill between players Marth should get bodied hard by characters like sheik lol.

Have you done a Tier list in that thread Umbreon? I'd love to see your take on one even if it's not exact.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-43#post-15358514

I haven't had any major changes of opinion since I posted this.

 

[Scythe]

i didn't know it was still april fools

 

[tripwire]

I believe Marth is def top 15.

 

[The_NZA]

Not really. I mean, you don't really say anything except you think you're better than me. I don't know how to respond to that other than saying I have a winning record against you and I don't think that will change. I mean, I guess I can take it as a compliment that you can't beat my fox therefore you need to nerf him in order to win.

Oh...my...god someone has penis issues.

 

[The_NZA]

Okay, but really, its not about god tiers. If anything, I think many of the people who hate fox and falco also love fox and falco for their fun gameplay design. It is fun to play a character that can demolish you and you get one good shot to 0-death them to stand a chance. I think the argument is that, much like Ike's fsmash, fox's usmash is brain dead.

Sveet, you just don't get it. You want us to compare fox's usmash to these other smash's in the game in a vacum. But thats not exactly fair. We are arguing that Fox's usmash is on its own amazing, and in combination with who he is in his attributes, stupid.

To emphasize the point, Pikachu did have the strongest usmash in Melee, but Pikachu didn't have the lead ins, nor the damage output that fox does. Some characters have horizontal options similar in power (you might point to wolf's dsmash as a comparison, or other character's fsmash's) but generally, those fsmash's are limited by a key factor: geography. Fox's usmash is effective everywhere on stage, and sometimes more effective on platforms. Ness is medium weight, but oftentimes if I am at 85% or 90% and I get usmashed from anywhere on a majority of neutral stages, I'm completely dead.

In terms of the uair, you argue its not that strong, it just seems strong because people are usually hit by it midair (from an uthrow). Again, you're arguing "While I admit, its rather silly in the most common cases it is used, it is not that strong when thought of in this specifically unique context of a grounded opponent." Seriously dude, just stop.

Usmash and uthrow do not break fox. He's better than everyone for a slew of other reasons. But they are stupidly strong moves that make the game less fun. Its not fun for an opponent to get cg'd by shiek, and its not fun for an opponent to be low percent killed by an usmash. I don't even think its that satisfying to usmash kill someone. I think people too often compare Fox's strengths with Falco's move set. Bottom line: Fox has a good combo game, a strong fsmash/dsmash, good shine spike kill opportunities, a decent back air and an ability to nair off stage to edgeguard and still make it back from practically anywhere. Would it hurt him for his usmash/uair to be on par with his other qualities? PAL competitive scene seems to indicate no, it wouldn't. But it would make playing against him a whole lot less frustrating.

Also, I would further bring up that while fox's/falcos aren't winning tourneys, that doesn't mean their ridiculous moveset isn't having an effect on what characters are advancing. How about you stop regurgitating perfect DI'd usmash's on DL64 and FD and realize that most of the cast gets randomly wrecked by usmash's on GHZ, WW, MC, FoD, PKS2, PKS1, BF,

 

[Ace55]

How is Ike's Fsmash braindead?

And PAL spacies are still 95% as frustrating to play against, trust me on that.

 

[Bryonato]

I thought we were over flaming each other in this thread

 

[Spiffykins]

Well that's good, because it means spacie players would have no reason to complain if they got similar nerfs in PM.

 

[Ace55]

Oh I'm fine with them becoming PAL, it's what I'm used to anyway. I just don't think it will make much of a difference aside from alienating melee spacy mains.

If you want to make spacies less dominant you would have to change something substantial about them. Like Fox's speed, nair, shine or falco's lasers, shine.

I thought we were over flaming each other in this thread

It wasn't meant as flaming but yeah I guess I could have worded it more politely.

 

[1MachGO]

Usmash and uthrow do not break fox. He's better than everyone for a slew of other reasons. But they are stupidly strong moves that make the game less fun. Its not fun for an opponent to get cg'd by shiek, and its not fun for an opponent to be low percent killed by an usmash. I don't even think its that satisfying to usmash kill someone. I think people too often compare Fox's strengths with Falco's move set. Bottom line: Fox has a good combo game, a strong fsmash/dsmash, good shine spike kill opportunities, a decent back air and an ability to nair off stage to edgeguard and still make it back from practically anywhere. Would it hurt him for his usmash/uair to be on par with his other qualities? PAL competitive scene seems to indicate no, it wouldn't. But it would make playing against him a whole lot less frustrating.

PAL scene indicates there is no substantial change and they are still just as frustrating to play against. Nerfing the KB of his moves is pointless because it has zero impact on the MUs.

 

[leelue]

Something tells me that if a character is going to die from upsmash more than he would from other moves in scenario A, but he won't die as early from an up smash in scenario B, in scenario B the matchup is better for that character than it would have been in scenario A.

 

[The_NZA]

Something tells me that if a character is going to die from upsmash more than he would from other moves in scenario A, but he won't die as early from an up smash in scenario B, in scenario B the matchup is better for that character than it would have been in scenario A.

Exactly this. We like the whole "technically hard to master, but amazing with perfect execution" gameplay design. I am fine with the "not changing matchups substantially". I am not fine with a character as good as fox having arguably some of the easiest kill options in the game.

If I could live 20% longer, thats nearly 20% more time that fox needs to play a perfect game. They'll have to rely on other kill moves or focus more on off stage gimping if htey want to kill before 100%. That would all be nice.

Also, when I said Ike's fsmash is brain dead, I was more so talking about 2.1 Ike where all of his moves had close to sweet spot power. I remember watching a video of 2.1 ike (though I didn't actually play 2.1) and I saw a high level Ike (maybe metroid?) destroying a high level fox at silly low percents with fairs and fsmash (we're talking before 70%).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Lots of smashes and attacks in general kill early. I don't see the difference... Are we going to nerf toon link's upb because its KOs at 90-100% and you can combo into it from practically any of his moves or throw?

 

[CyberZixx]

The problem is Toon Link is hardly the character Fox is. Fox has so much going for him without such strong kill moves they are seen as excessive. It is less about the move and more about how it relates to fox overall. Is Pichu had Foxes upsmash in melee no body would care.

 

[Warhawk]

Still would rather his recovery be nerfed if anything rather than weakening his upsmash. I think it would affect him more too than making his upsmash kill 10-20% later. To me weakening his upsmash is nerfing him just to say he's not as bad now when it really changes very little. Maybe its greedy but I'd also rather Fox be able to occasionally get a solid combo sequence that ends in an upsmash kill rather than never. I think an upsmash nerf does more to be a minor, personal nuisance to those that play him rather than bring the rest of the cast closer to him.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The problem is Toon Link is hardly the character Fox is. Fox has so much going for him without such strong kill moves they are seen as excessive. It is less about the move and more about how it relates to fox overall. Is Pichu had Foxes upsmash in melee no body would care.

If the move is not the problem, why must it be nerfed? Time would be better spent a) buffing other characters or b) solving your "fundamental" problems.

Also, how do you know "Toon Link is hardly the character Fox is"? There is still a lot of unknowns in the game for the new characters while melee staples have over 10 years of legends focused on learning everything they possibly can in order to win major tournaments. Who knows, Toon Link may actually have an inescapable lockdown that no matter what option the opponent takes leads into bomb->uair->upb at 70% guaranteeing a KO. How long do you think it takes before frame perfect option coverage is mastered for every character? Things like this may already "exist" in the game but havent been discovered because there hasnt been enough time spent.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

"Fundamental" problems are difficult to fix because they tend to leave the character's players with fewer and/or less viable options, potentially alienating the players of a popular character. Toning down/changing what something does allows people to maintain the strategies and tactics they're used to while still making it easier for the characters around them to deal with it, though they don't get at the heart of the issue. It's a delicate balance to strike.

As far as "frame perfect option coverage" is concerned, we (the PMBR) test things in general play as well as in Frame Advance, allowing us to test the currently-known limits of a moveset. Of course, we can't think of every single situation or use that would theoretically be possible, but with over a decade of data with the engine and many competent and prodigious PM players on our team, we can cover an incredible amount of it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ness is medium weight, but oftentimes if I am at 85% or 90% and I get usmashed from anywhere on a majority of neutral stages, I'm completely dead.

Here is a quick list of other moves that will kill you at that percent

ZSS Fsmash
Ivysaur upb + solar beam
Toon Link Upb + fsmash
Charizard Fsmash + (sweetspot) bair
Falcon Knee + Fsmash + dsmash + usmash

Gotta go to class so im not gonna do any more. Basically, a lot of characters have moves that will kill you at this percent. I seriously hope that we aren't nerfing every kill move in the game, just because you can get killed by it.

Btw heres a list of kill moves fox can use to kill you at that percent: Usmash. He has no others.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Here is a quick list of other moves that will kill you at that percent

ZSS Fsmash
Ivysaur upb + solar beam
Toon Link Upb + fsmash
Charizard Fsmash + (sweetspot) bair
Falcon Knee + Fsmash + dsmash + usmash

Gotta go to class so im not gonna do any more. Basically, a lot of characters have moves that will kill you at this percent. I seriously hope that we aren't nerfing every kill move in the game, just because you can get killed by it.

Btw heres a list of kill moves fox can use to kill you at that percent: Usmash. He has no others.

That assessment is not fair, as those moves will kill only at much higher percents depending on where you are on the stage (with the exception of Falcon U-Smash). If any of those moves are used when your back is near the edge, the victim has a much larger distance to cover. Fox has the benefit of being able to kill at relatively (relative to the average KO move) percents even if he has no stage control and his back is at the edge.

The percent being thrown around for Fox U-Smash is the -maximum,- and he can kill even earlier on a platform (though that situation is admittedly rather situational). As such, he gains even more from his ability to abuse mobility by making opponents come to him, as even if he doesn't press for stage control and people are forced to come to him, he's still KO'ing opponents at ~90%, despite the fact that most KO moves killing at that percent require stage control/pressure that closes the gap between the victim and the blast zone.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I tested all of those moves on greenhill zone (one of the stages he mentioned in particular) and for horizontal hits i tested by using the move from as far away from the edge as possible (usually standing at the other edge).

Also, fox has already recieved nerfs to his fsmash and dsmash from what I can tell.

 

[Oro?!]

Please Joe, when you are balancing characters you do not look at a move in a vacuum and say "yup, that's the problem". You look at the entire package that the character brings, and how moves behave within that character's moveset. If Pichu had Fox's upsmash in Melee, Pichu would still suck.

Also if ZSS FSmash is killing you at 80%, I would recommend to not DI down and towards the nearest blastzone.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

He used all of his percents as before the hits in his example kyle, so i did the same. Easy to test, just set ness to 85% and hit him with ****.

Fox's usmash doesn't kill ness until 95% (after hit) on greenhill zone with no DI.



edit- yeah i agree about the vacuum thing, but at the same time, fox doesn't really have a KO move other that that. Every one of his other moves just has okay knockback.

Fox isn't even the best char in the game, theres no need to make him worse so that hes less viable.

 

[CyberZixx]

Who do you think is better than Fox? Plus I don't think it is about him being best per se. Just a fault people have with his design. Lots of people take issue with Sonic's design and he is not considered the very best, but he is up there.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What is wrong with his design?

If there were a problem with a character's design, wouldn't it be better to change that? If the problem is fox's usmash is poorly designed (which i don't think it is) then changing how it works is better than leaving it the way it is and making it worse.

 

[Oro?!]

Having kill moves doesn't make you a good character. There is no correlation between being good and having good kill moves.

It's way to early to speculate on tier placements as is, and everything is "subject to change". It is my personal belief that Fox is in fact the best character in the game, and has far better matchups than Falco in PM. Not everyone holds that opinion, and I would not expect everyone to. Maybe if I played against a top player of a character that has a really good matchup against Fox would sway me. As I see it, Sonic and all of Fox's harder Melee matchups (Marth/Falco/Sheik) are still his hardest matchups.