Olimar Wish List: Ideas for the good captain for future patches

[robosteven]

Her tether range is good, but it still doesn't have a hitbox.

Olimar exclusive thiiiiiings.

This is true. Honestly, the fact that Oli's tether has a hitbox might be the only reason I forgive its range compared to every other tether.

Tink might be the only one with a shorter tether. :/

 

[B.W.]

I think it's about as long as Link's. I dunno for sure though.

 

[robosteven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SXn5CE6p8BA#t=394

guys

 

[Matthew]

Question: Does anyone feel like the time it takes the Pikmin to flower is too long? Or is it just me. 30 Seconds is a long time imo.

Anyways, I want to see some adjustments to it and feel like having more ideas about it is a good thing, so here it is:

In the case of keeping the time it takes to Flower at 30 seconds, they could make it so that the next 4 Pikmin that you would pull are set to the 30 second timer to flower. This proposal may seem difficult to grasp so I'll clarify with an example. You would start a match and pull 4 Pikmin and throw them off the edge. After 30 seconds pass, you pull another 4 Pikmin and these Pikmin are all flowered. This would be cool to me because in the Pikmin games, when the Pikmin are left in the ground, they will eventually Flower. I think this could add more depth to Olimar's Pikmin management and give him something to work with through his invincability.

Uses:
Play normally for the first 30 seconds of the game and then you can cycle your Pikmin without loosing power. This still incentivises you to keep your Pikmin alive because if you get careless you will be reduced to Leaf or Bud Pikmin again.
Gives Olimar something to compensate for his lack of invincability attack advantage when repawning. If the first Pikmin he plucks is a flowered white, he could take that opportunity to get a quick hit in before pulling the other 3.

One of the difficult things for me to grasp and be ok with is how inconsistant and random Olimar is. Generally when characters hit someone who is at a high percent with a kill move, they will die. But Olimar can hit with a kill move but not a kill Pikmin. This is mostly the case with having leaf Pikmin and you have to 'wait' till you get your power back. Like if you get killed first and your opponent has about 100%, you generally need to wait till your at least Bud to finish his stock off. It just makes me feel like I'm almost always at a disadvantage.

Another alternate option is to just have a 1/3 chance of plucking either a Leaf, Bud, or Flower Pikmin. I don't know how hard it would be to implement my original idea, so I'm just providing an alternate idea.

These are really great ideas! I still think that Olimar should have a 5th pikmin just for recovery purposes.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So what is everybody's opinion of the idea of pikmin staying in front until pikmin throw or whistle? It seemed kind of unfinished and forgotten. Is it an unneeded change if you work hard enough with the current system, or is it bad for other reasons.

To me, it seems like one of the bigger changes mentioned in this thread that I actually liked. In theory, it feels like it would give me much better control over my pikmin. So what do you guys think? Is it a change worth considering or is the current system better and more rewarding?

Also, how do you guys currently go about managing pikmin? Does whatever pikmin you have next influence your next move choice or do you plan ahead more in the neutral? Thanks for any responses in advance!

 

[B.W.]

I used to think that that was a good idea, but after I got used to the character I realized that he would need a much more of an overhaul to balance something like that out because you'd never switch from Purple or Flower White, it'd be much easier to level your Whites without losing them and it takes away the need for farming which, gimmicky/stupid or not, plays a fairly big part in the balancing of the character due to the fact that he potentially is the highest damage dealer in the game.

For managing Pikmin, I do a bit of both. In neutral, I throw the Pikmin I like least at the opponent or off the stage to farm for better Pikmin. I also whistle so that I can get them ordered how I want. If I have time, I'll also whistle enough times to make the Pikmin I'd want to call forward on a whim second in line, and I cycle my Pikmin with F-Airs and autocancelled aerials. I do it like this because if I keep Purple next in the queue then whenever I want to go for the kill, I just need to whistle once and Purple is there for the last hit.

In the beginning of my opponent's stocks, depending on the character I'm facing, I'll try to make it so Blue is in a specific spot. This is to maximize damage off of chaingrabs, which Olimar has on most everyone, but how long they last partially depends on how many blues you have, how many purples you have, what order their in, and the damage of your opponent. I can talk more about that, and most of my Olimar tricks and secrets, in the frame data/social thread if you'd like, just go there and ask.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SXn5CE6p8BA#t=394

guys

This happens to me all the time. Olimar is the only character without grab "armor." His Pikmin have it instead, but it doesn't help Olimar at all because Pikmin don't go as far as they did in Brawl when you grab with them.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Ok thanks, I was just wondering because the conversation on that died down and seemed like a cool idea.

 

[steelguttey]

so on the tier thread people that dont play olimar were saying how he is unviable because of rng and i gotta say that sure is his downfall. but how would we remove rng from him without having a completely broken mechanic?

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

so on the tier thread people that dont play olimar were saying how he is unviable because of rng and i gotta say that sure is his downfall. but how would we remove rng from him without having a completely broken mechanic?

I tried finding the menaning of "Rng" and I can't figure it out. What does it stand for?

 

[steelguttey]

I tried finding the menaning of "Rng" and I can't figure it out. What does it stand for?

random number generator. basically random stuff that happens in video games

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

random number generator. basically random stuff that happens in video games

Ah, so is the rng is applied to Olimars Pikmin Pluck then right? Are there other rng's that it's applied to? I'd say that if they made it so they were plucked in a specific order, it wouldn't break him as a character. If anything, it would make farming a bit more productive and usefull.

 

[robosteven]

so on the tier thread people that dont play olimar were saying how he is unviable because of rng and i gotta say that sure is his downfall. but how would we remove rng from him without having a completely broken mechanic?

I disagree 100%, random Pikmin pluck is half the thrill of playing Olimar. Listening to commentary of a lot of Olimar matches, I've noticed that people often think of Purple as the only Pikmin with killing power, and White as a projectile and that's it. Wrong, wrong, WRONG. All of the Pikmin can be used for combos, the player needs to learn to adapt to the weapons he has, and the fact that the opponent himself has to watch out for this at the same time makes Olimar even harder to read.

Flowered everything is hilariously good. At this point, the biggest buff Olimar could receive would be a decreased amount of time it takes for Pikmin to fully flower. Oli is a combo and kill GOD with a fully-flowered team.

Random Pikmin aren't making him unviable, his lack of tools against characters like Marth make him unviable. People not learning his matchups make him unviable.

The cry for buffs while refusing to learn his current build make him unviable.



tl;dr rng is not a problem, also I gush/rant a little.

 

[robosteven]

I'm actually not sure how OP (if at all) Oli would be if his Pikmin were always flowered. What do you guys think?

 

[B.W.]

Leaf Pikmin already have high damage potential. If Pikmin were flowered all the time that would be reeeeeally strong.

Also White would easily be the best Pikmin.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

I'm actually not sure how OP (if at all) Oli would be if his Pikmin were always flowered. What do you guys think?

Always flowered is OP. It would encourage spaming the throw and reduce his playstyle to an annoyance. I would like it if his Pikmin flowered at 20 seconds instead of 30, simply because a lot can happen in 30 seconds in the PM environment. 10 seconds to Bud, 10 more to Flower. I don't think it would be OP, it would just make each life a little more effective. Sure, Olimar is powerful when flowered but trying to get a kill with leaf is much harder. I'd say reducing the time it takes to flower would easily make up for the fact that Olimars respawn invincibility is virtually wasted plucking Pikmin.

Olimar is a complicated character to play since his tools are always changing. I think getting him up to flower a bit sooner balances out the hinderance of fighting with the leaf. Bud is decent but there aren't any effects that contribute to the fight.

It is interesting though, because I feel like (besides the basic fixes and changes that we all agree on) simply reducing the time it takes to flower will move Olimar up in the tier list, speculated of course.

 

[steelguttey]

I disagree 100%, random Pikmin pluck is half the thrill of playing Olimar. Listening to commentary of a lot of Olimar matches, I've noticed that people often think of Purple as the only Pikmin with killing power, and White as a projectile and that's it. Wrong, wrong, WRONG. All of the Pikmin can be used for combos, the player needs to learn to adapt to the weapons he has, and the fact that the opponent himself has to watch out for this at the same time makes Olimar even harder to read.

Flowered everything is hilariously good. At this point, the biggest buff Olimar could receive would be a decreased amount of time it takes for Pikmin to fully flower. Oli is a combo and kill GOD with a fully-flowered team.

Random Pikmin aren't making him unviable, his lack of tools against characters like Marth make him unviable. People not learning his matchups make him unviable.

The cry for buffs while refusing to learn his current build make him unviable.



tl;dr rng is not a problem, also I gush/rant a little.

rng is always a problem in competitive gaming. always. gaming should be about one person against another person, deciding whos best. olimar gets insane advantages or insane disadvantages depending on a bull**** random number. im not refusing to learn his current build, it just pisses me off when i get some **** like red/yellow/red/yellow and i have to waste my time throwing then plucking when the enemy is at 200 percent and istill cant kill them, rng should never be in competitive gaming, its just not something that works. it makes olimar such a hit or miss character and its ****ing ridiculous that they kept the rng in.

 

[robosteven]

rng is always a problem in competitive gaming. always. gaming should be about one person against another person, deciding whos best. olimar gets insane advantages or insane disadvantages depending on a bull**** random number. im not refusing to learn his current build, it just pisses me off when i get some **** like red/yellow/red/yellow and i have to waste my time throwing then plucking when the enemy is at 200 percent and istill cant kill them, rng should never be in competitive gaming, its just not something that works. it makes olimar such a hit or miss character and its ****ing ridiculous that they kept the rng in.

Sounds to me like you're underestimating what reds and yellows can do. Sure, they're no purples or whites, but they're still useable. I can't think of a single situation (aside from maybe a grab) where it was a life-or-death situation that could've been prevented if only you had different Pikmin, even moreso when your opponent is at super high percentages.

That being said, if there was a character with the same exact moveset as Olimar except all of the Pikmin were automatically one color or had one property, I'd probably main him because I'm in love with Oli's moveset. I wouldn't be opposed for the sake of fairness and removing any randomness from his game to having a set order of Pikmin.

I'd cite D3's side-b and Peach's down-b as reasons to keep the random stuff, but those are only two moves while Olimar's affects his entire moveset.

In spite of this, I seriously don't think his rng on Pikmin is a big enough problem.

 

[robosteven]

Always flowered is OP. It would encourage spaming the throw and reduce his playstyle to an annoyance. I would like it if his Pikmin flowered at 20 seconds instead of 30, simply because a lot can happen in 30 seconds in the PM environment. 10 seconds to Bud, 10 more to Flower. I don't think it would be OP, it would just make each life a little more effective. Sure, Olimar is powerful when flowered but trying to get a kill with leaf is much harder. I'd say reducing the time it takes to flower would easily make up for the fact that Olimars respawn invincibility is virtually wasted plucking Pikmin.

Olimar is a complicated character to play since his tools are always changing. I think getting him up to flower a bit sooner balances out the hinderance of fighting with the leaf. Bud is decent but there aren't any effects that contribute to the fight.

It is interesting though, because I feel like (besides the basic fixes and changes that we all agree on) simply reducing the time it takes to flower will move Olimar up in the tier list, speculated of course.

Agreed. I didn't think he should have perma-flowers, but I was curious what you guys thought.

Speeding up the process would definitely improve his game by a lot. A lot of times during close matches I've noticed that as soon as I lose a stock, I want to continue with the same strategies against my opponent, but they won't work because I have to camp and play safer than usual for a bit because my Pikmin need to flower or else I won't get any guaranteed kills. Olimar's weird, yo.

 

[B.W.]

RNG doesn't make him unviable, but it makes him harder to play.

If his Pikmin came out in a set order, farming would be easier and worth actively doing.

As of right now, it sucks to throw away Yellow or Red in hopes of getting another, and then getting Yellow or Red back in a weaker state. Makes Olimar less of a management character and more of a cross your fingers character.

I mean hell, they even tamed Luigi's misfire to give him tools.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

The more I think about it, the more I want his Pikmin to come out in a set order. Rather than getting lucky and having 3 purples in 1/10 matches, you can activly work towards that goal and force opponents to engage you. I can think of a lot more deep stratagies with a set order Pluck over just dealing with what you get.

Sounds to me like you're underestimating what reds and yellows can do. Sure, they're no purples or whites, but they're still useable. I can't think of a single situation (aside from maybe a grab) where it was a life-or-death situation that could've been prevented if only you had different Pikmin, even moreso when your opponent is at super high percentages.

While I mostly agree that were it a life or death situation, having different Pikmin probably wouldn't have saved me. However returning from a respawn after loosing and pulling any combination of a Yellow or White as 3 of my Pikmin, sets my kill power significantly lower and depending on the stage they will survive a good hit, allowing the opponent to rack up more damage. I understand that it's awesome to be able to have the ability to 0-death someone but it sucks when you get the kill hit but it just happens to be with the wrong Pikmin and you had about a 1/4 chance of that hit being the kill hit due to the 1 Blue or Purple Pikmin in your lineup.

 

[robosteven]

...I've already changed my mind about the rng Pikmin order. While I like it at the moment because I do enjoy dealing with random **** thrown at me to an extent, Olimar really could benefit from a set Pikmin order.

PMBR PLEASE FULFILL MY DREAM OF HAVING A BLUE ONLY TEAM

chainthrows for DAYS

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

...I've already changed my mind about the rng Pikmin order. While I like it at the moment because I do enjoy dealing with random **** thrown at me to an extent, Olimar really could benefit from a set Pikmin order.

PMBR PLEASE FULFILL MY DREAM OF HAVING A BLUE ONLY TEAM

chainthrows for DAYS

Its pretty neat too because getting a full set of blues would be crazy hard but really awesome, High risk, High reward.

I love the concept of activly working to get a desired set. It would be difficult to pull off but it would feel so satisfying.

 

[steelguttey]

Sounds to me like you're underestimating what reds and yellows can do. Sure, they're no purples or whites, but they're still useable. I can't think of a single situation (aside from maybe a grab) where it was a life-or-death situation that could've been prevented if only you had different Pikmin, even moreso when your opponent is at super high percentages.

That being said, if there was a character with the same exact moveset as Olimar except all of the Pikmin were automatically one color or had one property, I'd probably main him because I'm in love with Oli's moveset. I wouldn't be opposed for the sake of fairness and removing any randomness from his game to having a set order of Pikmin.

I'd cite D3's side-b and Peach's down-b as reasons to keep the random stuff, but those are only two moves while Olimar's affects his entire moveset.

In spite of this, I seriously don't think his rng on Pikmin is a big enough problem.

what im saying is that without purple white or blue im not going to have any substantial strengths compared to other characters. rng in competitive gaming should be put down to a point where it is only used in situations that wont break the game. there needs to be a way where we can get the pikmin we want without shuffling. olimar should be a character about gaining momentum, not getting random spikes of usability. imo pikmin should come out like this.

at the beginning of the game, the only pikmin that are plucked are red, yellow, and a white. and the next pikmin olimar gets depend on what he has done to his opponent.

hit the opponent with 3 smashes, your antennae starts glowing purple, and the next time you pluck, you get a purple. grab the opponent 2 times, your antennae glows blue, and the next pluck you get a blue. latch a pikmin onto the enemy your antennae glows white, and the next pluck you get a white. this give certain pikmin for certain matchups and gives counterplay to olimar. other than that, everything plucked will be either red or yellow. this makes pikmin manageable and not just in some set order. you cannot have more than two of purple, whites, or blues.

 

[B.W.]

That sounds overly complicated and is probably impossible to code.

Seriously just make them get plucked in the order of Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Purple.

Also why would you suggest even starting out with White? getting an early White is one of the best things that can happen to you right now.

 

[steelguttey]

overly complicated? pmbr coded luigi misfire they can code this.

and if they get plucked in order that would support pikmin shuffling, and we dont want that. pikmin shuffling takes away from the rushdown that pm requires by makng the game slow and boring.

starting out with white is a bad idea yea i guess but starting out red/yellow/red would be kind boring

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

If they came out in order, you'd be able to set your match up Pikmin rather quickly.

Example:
Begin the game with R-Y-B and Pluck a White
Depending on who your fighting, say Pikachu, you immediatly toss your Red and Pluck a Purple
Now you have Y-B-W-P and you can do a lot with that.
Don't want your White? Toss it and pluck a Red, toss it to get another Yellow.
With Y-Y-B-P you're well set against Pikachu. (This is also assuming Yellow gets some sort of buff)

Not too much management in setting up your matchup. When it's random, you just deal with what you have and thats that, which kinda sucks. Steelguttey, your idea of plucking a Pikmin based on how you play is crazy complicated, probably to code and too much to deal with for the player. I honestly wouldn't enjoy a function like that. Just making it so they come in a set order resolves a lot of complaints. Why complicate it more.

 

[steelguttey]

If they came out in order, you'd be able to set your match up Pikmin rather quickly.

Example:
Begin the game with R-Y-B and Pluck a White
Depending on who your fighting, say Pikachu, you immediatly toss your Red and Pluck a Purple
Now you have Y-B-W-P and you can do a lot with that.
Don't want your White? Toss it and pluck a Red, toss it to get another Yellow.
With Y-Y-B-P you're well set against Pikachu. (This is also assuming Yellow gets some sort of buff)

Not too much management in setting up your matchup. When it's random, you just deal with what you have and thats that, which kinda sucks. Steelguttey, your idea of plucking a Pikmin based on how you play is crazy complicated, probably to code and too much to deal with for the player. I honestly wouldn't enjoy a function like that. Just making it so they come in a set order resolves a lot of complaints. Why complicate it more.

this isnt complicated. its what olimar should be like. doing the stuff that you said (toss pluck then toss pluck) takes about 6 seconds in which a pikachu can rush you down. shuffling in general is a bad idea and it shouldnt be in effect as olimar. he should be plucking with the flow of the game, and my idea just keeps momentum. its not complicated, hit 3 of the individual pikmin's specialties and you get upgraded. simple.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

this isnt complicated. its what olimar should be like. doing the stuff that you said (toss pluck then toss pluck) takes about 6 seconds in which a pikachu can rush you down. shuffling in general is a bad idea and it shouldnt be in effect as olimar. he should be plucking with the flow of the game, and my idea just keeps momentum. its not complicated, hit 3 of the individual pikmin's specialties and you get upgraded. simple.

It's really complicated because your idea makes the player play in a specific way in order to get a specific Pikmin. The opponent can see what you are trying to get and they know that you have to do certain things in order to get it. This gives them an advantage. This method also generally leaves the player with less than 4 Pikmin almost all the time since they would need to make room for the next Pikmin thats being worked on getting plucked. Olimar is often much less effective with less than 4 Pikmin so constantly being at 3 hurts him a ton.

You also mention that you have to do things in 3's. what determins when a color gets overwritten? say if you want Blue and you get your first grab and the follow up is 3-4 up smashes, which gives you Purple. Do you then need do another 3 grabs to get it into Blue? What if you do a few Fairs and it turns Red, does it reset Blue's counter? You don't need to answer these questions, as it's more to show that it's more complicated than you make it out to be.

Also, if it's a set order, at the very least you know whats coming next. Which would be really helpful. Olimar can make space when he needs to. Taking a second to toss a Pikmin off stage when you know the Pikmin you want is up next is really benificial for the player.

 

[steelguttey]

the opponent seeing what you are trying to get is something called good game design. it gives counterplay, and puts in mindgames for olimar which would be a fun thing to put in. ok, the second point is kind of true but what if the next pikmin that you pluck replaces the last pikmin if you have 4 pikmin out?

and it works like this. lets say i hit a smash, grab, hit a smash, grab, hit a smash, pluck. i get a purple. the next pikmin i pluck AFTER the third is said pikmin. each pikmin color has a number count on its own, which i dont think is very complicated.

if i know whats comng next, then what if what is next isnt what i want? what if they are playing someone like jiggly puff and i want to knock them off really fast and i have a red next in line, then i have to pluck and throw 3 pikmin because im trying to play the matchup. it just puts him in bad situations for no reason, kinda like how he spawns after losing a stock with 0 pikmin, hes being punished for playing a character.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Is this a reasonable and plausable basic changelist for Olimar?

-Startup for Fsmash increased.
-Knockback for Fsmash increased (not by much)
-Yellow Pikmin have a larger hitbox
-Yellow Pikmin have increased hitstun (not by much)
-Pikmin AI improved so they don't "get lost"
-Tether grab box impoved to latch more reliably
-Olimar can grab the ledge if Up B misses and Olimar is at or above the ledge
-Pikmin Throw: All Pikmin that latch onto an opponent gain brief invincability frames. (enough to get one hit before being knocked off)
-Opponents can no longer get out of grab before Olimar is able to throw them

So i finally got around to playing some olimar, and this pretty much perfectly points out and addresses all of the things I felt needed to be adjusted about the character. the only other thing i would add is the ability to save your pikmin you throw off the stage with fsmash, but that might be covered in pikmin AI improvement.

 

[Kink-Link5]

A thought occured after playing the Smash 4 demo.

What if Down B whistle lights change color in sequence (Red, Yellow, Blue, Purple, White, then rainbow (random))?

Pikmin plucked will be the color of the last whistle blown. In the case of the rainbow whistle, they will use the random pluck seed as normal.

 

[B.W.]

So Purple whistle in Smash 4 meant you would pluck Purple even if your last pluck was Red?

Sounds broken.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No, the idea just stemmed from the fixed pluck order in Smash 4. Instead, the idea is that the whistle would blow in that sequence, and the next pikmin you plucked would be that color. The next one after would still use the random seed.

 

[B.W.]

Oh okay. Still sounds broken.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

That would break Olimar if you could dictate what Pikmin you plucked. Whistle 5 times to get a Purple? Suddenly Olimar shoots up in the tier list, and possibly creates his own tier. Having a set order at least forces you to deal with what you pull. I think that what PMBR really needs to do is make it worth using all the other Pikmin. So far the Red and Yellow are at the bottom of the barrel.

 

[steelguttey]

red and yellow should be the early combo do-ers and blues and purples should be kills. white should be ammunition. but he should be rewarded pikmin that he wants in each situation by doing the things that he wants with counterplay from the enemy, not whistling 5 times. thats why my idea on 3 smashes hit = purple 3 grabs = blue and 3 people stuck = white would keep the flow of olimar steady.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

red and yellow should be the early combo do-ers and blues and purples should be kills. white should be ammunition. but he should be rewarded pikmin that he wants in each situation by doing the things that he wants with counterplay from the enemy, not whistling 5 times. thats why my idea on 3 smashes hit = purple 3 grabs = blue and 3 people stuck = white would keep the flow of olimar steady.

I don't really want to go down that road again. You might not think that it's complicated, but it is. having to keep track of what moves you do in order to make sure you get the right Pikmin on your next Pluck is just too much to deal with. Especially when you have an aggressive player baiting you and forcing you to use moves that go against what you are trying to do in order to get that Pikmin color.

Is there something wrong with having a set order? It seems simple and predictable to me.

 

[robosteven]

So after playing Olimar at Best Buy (the Smash 4 Demo), I've concluded something about his recovery.

The tether is way better, especially with the hitboxes it has. If anything, I think it could be tweaked (more reliable Pikmin, actually snapping to the ledge, possibly adding another Pikmin for the sake of recovery, etc.). The tether's fine, but the hop from aerial Pikmin Pluck really isn't enough options to help him get back on stage. It's way too easy to punish, especially after the hop's been used.

 

[B.W.]

Once they fix his recovery to give him the boost he's supposed to get his recovery will be fantastic.

And I know this because his recovery is good even without the boost he's supposed to have.

 

[robosteven]

Wait, which boost are you talking about?