• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Olimar Wish List: Ideas for the good captain for future patches

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
So uh, yeah, I basically main Oli. I can give a bit of input

- Tether: Now it's amazing when it has all 4, there is usually no issue with that. But say I want to use a different strategy, have only 2 purple pikmin when I'm a stock up. Alot of the time, it completely misses grabbing the edge when it clear is touching it! This needs to be fixed, i get you're suppose to lose distance with less pikmin but you should still be able to grab it if it touches. This is the same for having 1 pikmin, although if you're that close you could basically grab it. 3 needs the same treatment but it hapens less
- Pikmin AI: This happened in a match yesterday. I was on smashville and the platform was above the pit on the left. I fall through and try and make my way to the middle of the stage by grabbling and sneaking in. But when I fall through the platform, NONE of the pikmin came down with me. I made it back to the stage, but that's unacceptable. There have been times also on Fountain where all my Pikimin are hanging out at the ledge not coming down....
- F-Smash: THANK YOU. I thought I was being a loser complaining about it, but everyone here seems to agree. If it takes so long, make it stronger. If they fall off the edge like that, either allow me to whistle them back or allow them to cause knockback (ANYTHING)

Other then that, Oli has potential. If you get used to him he can be a tough character to face. You just need alot of patients, and have a want to micro-manage (don't need to but, it's oh so satisfying sticking someone with a white, hitting them with a purple upsmash, then the white explodes, then you hit em with a fair)
 

Soniv

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
61
Location
Western Massachusetts
So uh, yeah, I basically main Oli. I can give a bit of input

- Tether: Now it's amazing when it has all 4, there is usually no issue with that. But say I want to use a different strategy, have only 2 purple pikmin when I'm a stock up. Alot of the time, it completely misses grabbing the edge when it clear is touching it! This needs to be fixed, i get you're suppose to lose distance with less pikmin but you should still be able to grab it if it touches. This is the same for having 1 pikmin, although if you're that close you could basically grab it. 3 needs the same treatment but it hapens less
I think part of the frustration is that we're used to characters having a little leeway with grabbing the ledge (ie - if they're close, they'll grab it), but since Oli's up b is a tether, we have no leeway (even though we probably should), and so if the pikmin is a few pixels away, he won't grab it.

- Pikmin AI: This happened in a match yesterday. I was on smashville and the platform was above the pit on the left. I fall through and try and make my way to the middle of the stage by grabbling and sneaking in. But when I fall through the platform, NONE of the pikmin came down with me. I made it back to the stage, but that's unacceptable. There have been times also on Fountain where all my Pikimin are hanging out at the ledge not coming down....
This is actually a usable tech if you prepare for it. You can fall through a platform and have a super disjointed [up] smash while Oli is below the platform.
 
Last edited:

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
It's true. If you leave Pikmin behind standing on a platform and you hit the ground, you can up-smash and they'll do it from the platform. I believe this also works for F-Smash. Not D-Smash though because it has more startup than U-Smash or F-Smash.
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
I think I've accidentally done it once, but thats interesting and I'll give it a shot. My only beef is the issue i've mentioned, sometimes i'm left with no Pikmin when pass a platform. Also, you guys ever have your Pikmin just not follow you offstage? A couple times on Fountain they just stopped at the edge and didn't follow when I was offstage (I whistled for them, they came back, but it should kinda just happen on it's own)

As for the tether,it doesn't need a substantial buff,but there is room for improvement. Olimar is pretty solid once you understand where he strives.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
At first I used to think it's ****ty Pikmin AI, but the more I played the more I realized, it's less the AI and more the fact that Pikmin actually can't keep up with Olimar, especially when he's being hit. If they're light hits they stay in Olimar's "bubble." But once they exit that bubble they seem to slow down or something. That's why whistling off stage is really important. Sometimes I'll whistle 2-3 times in a row even if my Pikmin are right next to me, because they've found ways to fall out of line.

The real solution here would be to make them stick inside Olimar's bubble a little better.
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
Yeah, I get what youre saying about the bubble, and now that i think of it it makes sense. What I learned is that if you toss them and theyre taking time to come back, you can run to where you threw them and instantly pick them back up. It's useful in some situations, like say you have a purple, toss him, knock and enemy off stage then follow with a fair after you pick him up again.

They should really implement a stall with the whistle. Even if it's not as good as the neutral b stall, it's something, and allows some variation.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
Nah. The whistle not having a stall makes it much easier to follow up with aerials once you get how organizing works. If it had a stall it'd screw with his momentum a bit which would make it difficult to get double color combos when you only have 1 of the Pikmin you want to double up on.
 

Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
Location
Helsong's Carpeted Floor
If you charge an F-Smash/Up-Smash while you're on the ground and the pikmin is on the platform does the pikmin stay still in the charging animtion?

If so that makes a great AT.
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
Well either a stall or the pikmin need to return faster/more reliably.

If you charge an F-Smash/Up-Smash while you're on the ground and the pikmin is on the platform does the pikmin stay still in the charging animtion?

If so that makes a great AT.
Apparently so. Others here say it works.
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
I switch between, usually unconsciously, if I want to charge or not. Next time I play i'll see.
 

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
After playing Brawl just out of curiosity (because I've been playing PM so much I can't remember most anyone's Brawl moveset) I realized a few things I'd want to see changed on Olimar.

1. Tether. Yeah, I know it's a huge issue for him already and it's been addressed, but hear me out. In Brawl, his tether comes out so quickly. This is in BRAWL. Why isn't it this fast in PM? I seriously don't see any downside to making the tether actually activate faster.

2. F-smash. F-smash in Brawl was pretty dang good, but I understand why they nerfed it. However, they nerfed the absolute balls out of it, so much to the point where it's basically unuseable because EVEN THE F-TILT IS A BETTER OPTION. Don't know how exactly, but something should probably be done about that.

3. Pluck speed. I don't even need to elaborate on this. There's NO REASON not to bring it back to Brawl speed.

4. Dair speed. I don't actually know, but would his Brawl speed dair be too good in the PM environment?

I have the same comment about his grab range. It's pretty dang great in Brawl, but my guess is that it'd be too good in a PM environent, but I don't know if that's true. With the PM overall speed, I feel like it'd be just as punishable as any tether grab, but that's just me. What do you guys think?

...Also, I don't know how hard it would be to code, but my god his whistle needs to actually be able to bring his Pikmin to him at all times somehow. I've complained about the Pikmin abandoning you **** too much and don't feel like it'd be worth it to do anymore, especially considering it seems everyone has this same complaint.
 
Last edited:

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
Pikmin AI hasn't changed from Brawl, js.

There's actually an effort value in the games file which dictates how much the Pikmin care about your commands. It's default at 5 but if changed to like, 100, Pikmin generally ignore you to the point where you can walk away from them. It's kinda lol.
 

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
Pikmin AI hasn't changed from Brawl, js.

There's actually an effort value in the games file which dictates how much the Pikmin care about your commands. It's default at 5 but if changed to like, 100, Pikmin generally ignore you to the point where you can walk away from them. It's kinda lol.
I was actually just about to edit my post and mention something about how the PMBR aren't to blame for rebelious Pikmin because it's happening in Brawl too, but you beat me to it.

Also, that's hilarious. Any idea if that value can be edited, or if it has been edited for PM? Or do horrible things happen if it's lower than 5?
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
1. Tether. Yeah, I know it's a huge issue for him already and it's been addressed, but hear me out. In Brawl, his tether comes out so quickly. This is in BRAWL. Why isn't it this fast in PM? I seriously don't see any downside to making the tether actually activate faster.
There's no downside, but why does he needs this? His recovery as is, is fantastic. Every time I go to tournaments, people are astonished on how good his recovery is.
2. F-smash. F-smash in Brawl was pretty dang good, but I understand why they nerfed it. However, they nerfed the absolute balls out of it, so much to the point where it's basically unuseable because EVEN THE F-TILT IS A BETTER OPTION. Don't know how exactly, but something should probably be done about that.
This move needs a buff. I've suggested earlier IASA frames a few times. Alternatively, having the move come out faster would work.

I'd prefer the move to come out faster personally, but both would make this move too strong for sure.
3. Pluck speed. I don't even need to elaborate on this. There's NO REASON not to bring it back to Brawl speed.
Fun fact: This move is pretty fast. Possibly even Brawl speed. But you can't mash it anymore, you have to tap B in a rhythm and they'll come out faster. Practice it.

That said, having the Brawl pluck back wouldn't be terrible. It honestly wouldn't help or hurt Olimar though.
4. Dair speed. I don't actually know, but would his Brawl speed dair be too good in the PM environment?
You can d-air up to three times off stage if you don't fast fall. N-air makes on stage d-airs less valuable (though not useless). Really though, Olimar is capable of going deep off stage. If this move was faster, Olimar's offstage game would surely be too strong.

I have the same comment about his grab range. It's pretty dang great in Brawl, but my guess is that it'd be too good in a PM environent, but I don't know if that's true. With the PM overall speed, I feel like it'd be just as punishable as any tether grab, but that's just me. What do you guys think?
I don't have a comment on this one. I wouldn't object to better grab range... But I also don't have that big an issue with how it is now.

If anything were to be changed about his grab though, it needs to be able to reel opponents in without them being able to mash out of it until they're fully reeled in. As it is now, opponents can break out of it before Olimar even has a chance to throw.

...Also, I don't know how hard it would be to code, but my god his whistle needs to actually be able to bring his Pikmin to him at all times somehow. I've complained about the Pikmin abandoning you **** too much and don't feel like it'd be worth it to do anymore, especially considering it seems everyone has this same complaint.
I've never had a problem with Pikmin not returning after a whistle... Just them falling out of line because they're dumb.
 
Last edited:

Soniv

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
61
Location
Western Massachusetts
I agree with pretty much everything B.W. said. I wouldn't even want Olimar to have that many buffs...

I'm actually kind of ok with Fsmash as it is, especially because of how good Up smash is. I watched Pimpfish at NSA2 last weekend, and he used Fsmash pretty nicely for spacing.

Olimar's grab range is also fairly insane (and quick). I didn't know that people could break out while they're being pulled back though, that should be changed.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
2423-5382-7542
Yes, breaking before the person even has a chance to pummel or throw you, is stupid.
 
Last edited:

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
There's no downside, but why does he needs this? His recovery as is, is fantastic. Every time I go to tournaments, people are astonished on how good his recovery is.
Really? I must be using it in a much too predictable way then because it's not hard to get gimped. I mean, it's naturally good because it's a tether recovery that auto-snaps to the ledge (like all tethers in PM), but it doesn't come out instantly like it used to. Idk, just something that bugged me a bit. He doesn't need it, but I think it'd make his recovery much less gimpable, which in my opinion would not overpower him at all, but idk.

You can d-air up to three times off stage if you don't fast fall. N-air makes on stage d-airs less valuable (though not useless). Really though, Olimar is capable of going deep off stage. If this move was faster, Olimar's offstage game would surely be too strong.
Agreed. It was just a thought, and I wasn't sure. In fact, I actually have next to no problem with his current PM dair. Was just wondering, that's all.

I don't have a comment on this one. I wouldn't object to better grab range... But I also don't have that big an issue with how it is now.

If anything were to be changed about his grab though, it needs to be able to reel opponents in without them being able to mash out of it until they're fully reeled in. As it is now, opponents can break out of it before Olimar even has a chance to throw.
holy hell this this this

Going in for a grab is hard enough as it is, and getting it broken out of when you clearly landed it just makes it all the more frustrating.

(If I'm wrong about going in for a grab as Olimar though, please correct me. The startup just feels kinda slow to me, but I know his grabs are great aside from what was previously mentioned, so tips would be appreciated).
 
Last edited:

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
Yeah, about the grab. Usually it's hard to get early grabs on someone like DK because of his range lol. Either you'll grab him and he'll get an attack out that cancels the grab, or it takes too long to reel him. Ofcourse it's not extremely noticable and only happens at early percents (I don't recall numbers, but 1-10% seem like it happens the most).

Other than that, the grab is great. Especially with how mobile Oli is, you can get some good tech chases and chains once you start reading your opponents. It's just tricky at first to get use to pivots and running in and grabbing, as unlike other characters you need to be further back when you press the grab command or it'll pass through your opponent, because the PIKMIN need to grab them not Oli.

4 Pikmin recovery is amazing. I probably have problems because I usually farm Purples, White and Blues when I can, leaving me with 2 Pikmin. A strat I'm trying, that works pretty well once you have a flowered purple and a blue (or white).

I was watching a stream of Xanadu the other night and I think it was Pink Fresh who said that once Olis up a stock, hes amazing. Which I can support personally.
 
Last edited:

Soniv

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
61
Location
Western Massachusetts
Really? I must be using it in a much too predictable way then because it's not hard to get gimped. I mean, it's naturally good because it's a tether recovery that auto-snaps to the ledge (like all tethers in PM), but it doesn't come out instantly like it used to. Idk, just something that bugged me a bit. He doesn't need it, but I think it'd make his recovery much less gimpable, which in my opinion would not overpower him at all, but idk.
Are you using aerial pluck to mix up your off stage movement? Changing it up to use it before or after 2nd jump to give yourself a little bounce will not only help your recovery, but plays mind grapes on the enemy.


holy hell this this this

Going in for a grab is hard enough as it is, and getting it broken out of when you clearly landed it just makes it all the more frustrating.
(If I'm wrong about going in for a grab as Olimar though, please correct me. The startup just feels kinda slow to me, but I know his grabs are great aside from what was previously mentioned, so tips would be appreciated).
The only people I've struggled with getting grabs on are the big dudes, as Lackadaisy said above. Are you dashing into grab? If so, you need to jump cancel it, because dash grab is kinda slow. But otherwise I've had nothing but good things to say about his grab. It's good range, good speed, and I'm pretty sure that when you grab with purple it puts out a hitbox or something.
 

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
Are you using aerial pluck to mix up your off stage movement? Changing it up to use it before or after 2nd jump to give yourself a little bounce will not only help your recovery, but plays mind grapes on the enemy.
Yeah, I'm using it. It doesn't seem to really be enough though, but I probably just need to work on it more.



Are you dashing into grab? If so, you need to jump cancel it, because dash grab is kinda slow. But otherwise I've had nothing but good things to say about his grab. It's good range, good speed, and I'm pretty sure that when you grab with purple it puts out a hitbox or something.
I don't know, dash grab actually feels like it has faster startup for some reason, plus Oli goes in a little further using it. I try using jump cancelled grab with him, but he feels like the only character where his dash grab is actually kinda better than his standing. It might just be me though, I don't know.
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
all grabs have the same hit frames

pivot and dash grab are the same frame wise

standing has,a slightly faster faf
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
143
Location
Seattle Washington
Honestly, theres a lot that I would "like" to see him do, but I'd really be happy if his Pikmin were more reliable (Recovery wise and them getting lost for odd reasons) and his fsmash got a buff.

Edit: And fix being able to get out of grabs before they reach Olimar. When that chatches on, it'll be bad news.
 
Last edited:

internetmovieguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
187
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Sorry if this has already been posted.

MOVESET

Pumbling an opponent should attach the next pikmin in the chain to the opponent. Purple simply does extra damage.
If that seams unfair then make a pikmin attachment limit through this option.

Pros
This give one more way to attach them.
Adds to his grab game.


White pikmin detonates while attached with down-b.

Pros
Possible combo: grab -> pumble to attach white pikmin -> throw -> down-b to detonate.

I'm talking about Snake Olmar.

Cons
If a tossed white pikmin is reflected it would attach to you.
You lose a friend.
 
Last edited:

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
I don't care for most of these ideas, but honestly, pummel attaching Pikmin is an interesting idea. Though, in a lot of cases you'd probably get more damage off of just their pummel as it is now. Especially White's.

I used to have a lot of big ideas for changing Olimar, but really he doesn't need much. If I had to make a small list...

- Fix Pikmin not returning during Whistle.
-- ...This is not a problem I have actually, but I've seen a lot of other players talk about this happening, so it's got to be a thing.

- Adjust F-Smash to be a little more useful.
-- I know characters are going to have bad moves, but F-Smash feels like it's supposed to be a core part of his entire character. Honestly, having a faster start up would probably be enough. The distance Pikmin get thrown is fine, and the endlag is reasonable, as Olimar can move literally as soon as the Pikmin hits the ground. The Pikmin's travel speed is fairly slow though, and that combined with the start up being on the slower side as well makes this attack very easy to stop before it really has the chance to do anything at all since it already has the disadvantage of being a long lasting, slow moving, projectile type move that can only be thrown close to the ground and Olimar can't start moving again until the move is over. Even with a faster start up this move is punishable if you know it's coming out, and it doesn't even knock people back very hard.

- Increase Pikmin's follow speed slightly.
-- While I don't have as much of a problem with Pikmin not listening to my whistle, I do have a problem with them not keeping up with my movements. I'm always moving in some way, shape, or form and when you move too much, Pikmin just can't keep up and when you lose them they tend to scatter. This screws up a lot of things, including any kind of micro management you had going on with your Down-B. If you don't whistle, they come back all scrambled if they even make it back to you in the first place. If you do whistle, they all come back to you, but now whatever planning you had going on managing your is ruined, all because you were trying to keep up with the fight. It sucks.

- Down-B frame adjustments.
-- I don't know how fast you could react out of Whistle in Brawl. In Project M the First Actionable Frame (FAF, also known to many as IASA) is 12. This isn't too bad, but for micromanaging purposes in such a fast game, something even sooner than frame 12 would be preferable. It's easy to manage your Pikmin against characters like Bowser or Ganondorf, or anyone on the slower side, but against some of the faster characters it becomes impossible due to the fact that managing your Pikmin often times takes multiple whistles. So if I have Red>Yellow>Blue>Purple and Red is up next in the whistle order, I have to whistle 4 times to get the Pikmin I need. So while one whistle isn't too harmful, having to whistle multiple times can be. Obviously you can space them out, but that doesn't always give you your desired results. A lot of times you just have to work with what's next in line, and I get that, but it'd just help Olimar manage a little easier against the fast guys. It'd also create a few neat openings for combos and what not I'm sure.

Really though on a move that literally does two things (calls back Pikmin and reorders them), buffing this move to have a sooner FAF isn't too unreasonable I'd think.

- And lastly, I'd love if Pikmin Throw (Side-B) could be aimed.
-- This would make it a good bit easier to use the move for one of the only thing it's good for in the first place, and that's adding on extra damage during your combos. I'd also love if it didn't have a range limit in the form of Pikmin stopping themselves in mid air to return to Olimar. It should go until they hit the floor.
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
In regards to your list
- Yes to the Pikmin during Whistle. Sometimes they just don't want to return after more than 1 whistle. I've gotten use to it however but some errors are on the games part, not my own (over an edge, have 3 pikmin and, from experience, know I can make it, whistle to make sure, up+b, one pikmin doesn't respond and I SD)
- Call me crazy, but I've been able to use the slow F-Smash, somewhat. It's not totally useless, but it's far from his best smash. I opt to use down-smash in many situations because it's so amazing in comparison.
- Agree with the follow speed
- And yes, if your opponent gets smart and start scattering your pikmin and bringing the pressure, once you're over the edge with one pikmin you're as good as done. The whistle needs to come out faster.
- I'm fine with Pikmin throw, maybe it's because in Brawl I used Olimar quite a bit, so i'm used to sniping opponents. It takes some learning but usually i don't have an issue with Whites or Normals. Still trying to use Purples to gimp recoveries but not confident enough yet.

Ever thought about the changes Sakurais made in Smash 4 and if they should be applied to PM (Fixed order of R,B,Y,P,W,; only 3; new recovery) ?
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
143
Location
Seattle Washington
-- I know characters are going to have bad moves
This is the only thing I don't understand. Why? Why should characters have any bad moves? I think there should always be a use for each move. Olimars F-smash has an effect, it's always outclassed by either a D-smash or SH fair. I feel like one of the biggest reasons why Fox/Falco were so dominant in Melee was because they had more "good" moves that the rest of the cast. Honestly, I think that Olimar has one bad move, and thats his F-smash.

I also do like the idea of a Pikmin attaching on Pummel. While it's interesting, it would suck if you got a grab and threw them but you only had one Pikmin. Therefore you couldn't really follow up with anything.

What if they attached to the opponent if they are in the range of being pulled from the Pikmin Pluck? It would also serve as something the oppoent has to worry about when you have less than 4 Pikmin.

Pros:
Makes having less Pikmin in tow a viable option as you can attach them at close range when trying to escape or add them during a combo.
Makes opponents think twice when checking your respawn invincability.
could be used as a respawn invincability attack.

Con:
The opponent can absorb all your pikmin, leaving you with very few attacks.
Pro to the Con:
The opponent takes a ton of damage.

I feel like Olimar needs more ways to attach Pikmin and this could be a great solution. I'm curious to know what you guys think about this change and how possible it is to implement. I really think it would add a lot of depth to his play style. Who would have thought that Pikmin Pluck would be a viable option during a fight?!
 

internetmovieguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
187
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
This is the only thing I don't understand. Why? Why should characters have any bad moves? I think there should always be a use for each move. Olimars F-smash has an effect, it's always outclassed by either a D-smash or SH fair. I feel like one of the biggest reasons why Fox/Falco were so dominant in Melee was because they had more "good" moves that the rest of the cast. Honestly, I think that Olimar has one bad move, and thats his F-smash.

I also do like the idea of a Pikmin attaching on Pummel. While it's interesting, it would suck if you got a grab and threw them but you only had one Pikmin. Therefore you couldn't really follow up with anything.

What if they attached to the opponent if they are in the range of being pulled from the Pikmin Pluck? It would also serve as something the oppoent has to worry about when you have less than 4 Pikmin.

Pros:
Makes having less Pikmin in tow a viable option as you can attach them at close range when trying to escape or add them during a combo.
Makes opponents think twice when checking your respawn invincability.
could be used as a respawn invincability attack.

Con:
The opponent can absorb all your pikmin, leaving you with very few attacks.
Pro to the Con:
The opponent takes a ton of damage.

I feel like Olimar needs more ways to attach Pikmin and this could be a great solution. I'm curious to know what you guys think about this change and how possible it is to implement. I really think it would add a lot of depth to his play style. Who would have thought that Pikmin Pluck would be a viable option during a fight?!

For the sake of balancing each character, they gotta have strengths and weaknesses. Olmar is vulnerable with no pikmin, which is a good weakness to have as it can be over come by plucking pikmin. Of course he's also vulnerable when plucking pikmin so you have to be wise about when and where you pluck.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
@ RelaxAlax RelaxAlax
F-Smash has a small share of uses as it is now. The real issue is that it doesn't give that big of a reward for taking the risk of using it in the first place. It's really easy to see coming, and against a player with good reactions, it's easy to see coming. It has the advantage of having more range than his D-Smash and it stays active longer than D-Smash. Pikmin are also airborne with F-Smash which makes them a little harder to get around. D-Smash has way better frame data in general. The first hitbox is active sooner, and its FAF is also sooner. On top of this, D-Smash is also more powerful.

Whistle doesn't really need to come out faster. Whistle to reorder Pikmin is really fast. I assume you're talking about Pikmin reacting to the Whistle and coming back to Olimar. I've experienced no problems with this really. It'd just be nice if the FAF of Whistle was faster.

Pikmin Throw as it is now, is both a terrible move and a fine one. I don't often have problems missing when I throw Pikmin. The real reason I'd like to have Pikmin Throw aimable is because in PM its main use, outside of Purple Pikmin Throw, is it tacks on damage during your combos. Pikmin are really easy to shake off in PM. Being able to toss them more upward or downward would create opportunities for you to combo into Pikmin Throw in a sense. Even if it was aimable though, doing this would probably be difficult. Such a change might not even make this move worth using past pestering your opponent still, and as far as projectiles go, it's bad as a pestering move even.
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
Yeah,I agree on the F-Smash, although if you throw it out every now and then your opponent doesn't see it coming, and it helps me before. In no way however would I trade downsmash for it.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Or Whistle needs to finish sooner someway. But on many occasions, i'm over an edge and 1 whistle fails me, even if the Pikmin is right next to me! I think atleast that should be fixed, sometimes multiple whistles will be your death.

And I see what you mean about aimable, I was envisioning it more like Yoshi stories, is that what you mean, or do you mean that you could throw them straight up ala Snakes Upsmash? I say it's okay as it is, maybe in the slightest add some sort of tilt feature, where :GCUR::GCB: or :GCDR::GCB: tilts the direction of where they're thrown. But that would make it even more tedious, as I believe Yellows, Whites and Purples all have different throwing arcs (not sure about red and blue, they feel the same)
 

internetmovieguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
187
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
3. Pluck speed. I don't even need to elaborate on this. There's NO REASON not to bring it back to Brawl speed.

Having 0 pikmin is one of his biggest weaknesses.
Brawl pikmin pluck speed is unfair as you can very very easily regain pikmin. Therefore killing them would be a useless strategy against olmar. Fast plucking of pikmin discourages people from valuing pikmin and encourages his campy game.


What would be fair is some way of quickly regaining 4 pikmin after losing a stock.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
Aimable as in Dedede, Waddle Dees. Yellow has the only different arc, white and purple just go farther and shorter distances.

Also Olimar can pluck quickly, you just can't mash it out.
 

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
Having 0 pikmin is one of his biggest weaknesses.
Brawl pikmin pluck speed is unfair as you can very very easily regain pikmin. Therefore killing them would be a useless strategy against olmar. Fast plucking of pikmin discourages people from valuing pikmin and encourages his campy game.
First, it's not the initial pluck speed that I'm complaining about, it's the fact that you can't mash it anymore. You have to time it perfectly and, while it's not that big of a deal, it's still a pain.

Second, I have no idea what you're talking about with Olimar's campy game being encouraged. Frankly, his campy game that was encouraged in Brawl straight-up doesn't work anymore. Everyone has options to deal with Pikmin spam, getting them off when attached is really easy, and he's not the best at keeping other characters away in the fast environment of PM.

Third, having Pikmin die on you is even worse for Olimar than it used to be. If they died in Brawl, "oh that's fine, I'll just pluck another. I still have like five extra, no big deal." If they die in PM, especially if they were flowered, you lose the extra boost in power for 1/4 of your attack lineup, that is if you decide to pluck another Pikmin to stay at your max of 4 (which, thanks to his somewhat lacking tether recovery, is necessary at basically all times). The added perks from waiting around for your Pikmin to flower are WAY more important in PM, and increasing the pluck speed wouldn't suddenly make Pikmin disposable.

If any buff should be done to Pikmin Pluck, IMO it should be regarding the small amount of time it takes for the Pikmin to assume a position to attack. Olimar struggles hard with respawn, so much to the point that your invincibility time is almost exclusively used for regaining your Pikmin. You can't even just take one and run with it because not only does that ruin your recovery, but it still takes time for that lone Pikmin to land, further using your invincibility frames. I'm not saying that invincibility frames after respawn make or break a character, but I don't think it's fair to take away from Olimar the momentary ability to pressure an opponent with like two seconds of invincibility that literally the entire cast can use to some extent.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
As it currently is, getting Pikmin on respawn sucks. A lot. It's a frequently requested thing for Pikmin to somehow spawn with Olimar. I don't think we'd see that happening. I wouldn't mind a few extra invincibility frames on respawn for Olimar to pluck Pikmin. For balance issues it the extra invincibility shouldn't cover the frames of more than 3 Pikmin. That would be 33 extra frames of invincibility to pluck Pikmin, and some of that time would also be taken up to hit the ground, so really it might only be about 2 Pikmin before you have a normal invincibility frames depending on the stage.

As of right now, I suggest getting off the respawn platform by hitting left or right and going to the nearest platform. Or if you're at a triangle formation platform stage, fast fall down and pluck on the top platform.

It also helps if you only pluck 2 if your opponent is closer. With 2 Pikmin, you have a few more options at your disposal, and you can still use your invincibility to force people to keep their distance, since if they attack you, they're obviously getting punished.
 
Last edited:

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
Location
Ontario
I usually pluck 2, and if I'm the one down a stock, i'll go in for the KO, you shouldn't squander that. Or even if I'm feeling festive I'll go in with no pikimin and go solimar (neutral air, side tilt, up tilt, it has worked before because nobody expects it) although it can end badly.

Something needs to be down to even the playing field. Maybe Pikmin shouldn't die when Olimar hits a blastzone, and instead remain alive? This way Olimar just has to whistle for any remaining Pikmin not thrown into a blastzone, which is usually atleast one. Although that sounds tough and is just wishful thinking.

As for the pluck speed, yeah at first it seems worse, but once you get the rhythm you'll notice it isn't so bad.
 

robosteven

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
1,181
Location
MA
NNID
robosteven
Maybe Pikmin shouldn't die when Olimar hits a blastzone, and instead remain alive? This way Olimar just has to whistle for any remaining Pikmin not thrown into a blastzone, which is usually atleast one.
I like this idea.
 

internetmovieguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
187
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
NEW IDEA:
Super Pluck.
Press A + B (attack + special) to pluck 4 pikmin.
Super Pluck would allow players to quickly regain pikmin after the loss of a stock or if they lose all pikmin.

I see two ways of doing this: Super Pluck 1 OR Super Pluck 2

Super Pluck 1) Long pluck time
Pros: faster than normal plucking 4 pikmin.
Cons: It should take longer than normal plucking 1 pikmin. maybe take 2, or 3 times as long.

Super Pluck 2) A special charge: time based like wario warff or maybe reward based like lucario.
Pros:
Pluck 4 pikmin quickly.
Not as complicated as Super Pluck 1**
Cons:
Less flexible than Super pluck 1
**(yes pressing A+B is complicated, a lot of sonic players still don't know that if you press A right after B, homing attack, its a new move, blast attack)

My other suggestion:
PikStick Pumble: Attach pikmin with pumble.
Other Awesome Suggestions (From others):
Color the DOT: The dot on his antenna turns the same color as the next pikmin in the chain
Pikmin Survival: Let the pikmin survive if olmar is KO'ed, he can whistle them back he he respawns.
Fix The Pikmin AI: Many people in the chat claims they do silly stuff like just hanging out when you need help or ignoring your whistle.
PS: Yeah I like big font, I find it easier to read. I apologize if someone else already suggested Super Pluck
 
Last edited:

SnazzyPierre

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
20
Olimar is a pretty crappy character, right? I think we can all agree that right now his gameplay is extremely uninspired and is like a strange amalgamation of several other Brawl and P:M character styles that plays in a VERY funky and simplistic fashion. I think Olimar by every means necessary needs to MAINTAIN his simplicity. That's the only reason I picked him up as a character and (for now) my main. He's simple enough that I think I've near perfectly etched out what his metagame will be 2 years in the future if he's not changed, and that's /good/ for Olimar, I firmly believe in him being a simplistic character, but he doesn't have enough options. I can describe what I think his metagame will be at a mod or civilian's request.

I first want to point out that it was utterly INGENIUS to make it so that you can't B Reversal his air pluck and to make it like a DJ with heat up (the opposite of cool down). I think this move needs to be an aerial mix up option for Olimar, that makes him dash up in the air (like he does now; possibly add ability to angle it) while plucking and makes him automatically fastfall afterwards (possibly even faster than his regular fastfall), while maintaining the lack of B Reversal. I also think that it should have a hitbox, just for kicks. This partially solves Olimar's lack of approach and also makes his recovery (in tandem with the following change I list in the paragraph below) good but not perfect.

OLIMAR'S WHISTLE should have one-hit heavy armor (armor with conditions of failure/removal in addition to grabs and cutscene attacks/supers) from 40/50%-100% on the ground (this makes crouch canceling and it go near seamlessly into each other, but make sure that there is a margin of around 10-20% where Olimar can be scooped up), and always have one-hit super armor (multi-hits break it) in the air. If you use it in the air, it only works the first time, restoring it's super armor once you hit the ground. This greatly assists his recovery, approach, living power, and his options in general. Also, for the love of God and everything holy, MAKE THE WHISTLE CHANGE PIKMIN ORDER ACCURATELY. If you do it several times in the air, sometimes it makes your order all messed up and janked, and I can't order my Pikmin that way (this jank is actually is good thing if you combine it with the suggested changes of White Pikmin in the paragraphs below, as the semi-randomness would make it so you can react but the foe can't do anything until after they're hit).

Olimar's Pikmin (not their order or pluck rates) are the MOST UNINSPIRED part of him right now.
YELLOW PIKMIN should always do multi-hits for his attacks (even Up-B, but maybe not B-air), maybe even making them not latch onto foes from Pikmin Toss, but instead just act as a multi-hit projectile. Possibly make it so that they heat up and cool down the same as the other Pikmin, but on contact they start doing their multi-hits and stay out longer because of the hitlag. This will greatly add to Olimar's combo game when he does things like his F-Smash, D-Smash, U-Smash (it'd be like Roy's), and a landed F-air into grabs (which I will get to later). His combo game stinks. Don't deny it. He needs this. I also think that Yellow Pikmin, if active-damage projectiles, should do hardly any shield damage but should have a decent amount of shieldstun, which would improve his anti-shield game (grabs won't cut it, they're not that good). This isn't broken because Olimar throws Yellow Pikmin at high angle, not to mention that Yellow Pikmin move so slowly, which makes throwing it at shields kinda difficult. If this last change is implemented, possibly make them even SLOWER (similar to Lucario's Super Sphere, but arcing and much smaller) in the air than they are now, make them only have Brawl Diddy's Peanut hitstun (and likewise Wolf's sourspott N-air) on each hit and move slowly, stopping their movement and active hitstun when ### amount if hits on a foe is done. Make them ignore Olimar's command until landing upon the ground, being hit (think Din's Fire level of priority), or hitting the foe the right amount of times. This makes Olimar's Recovery nerfed and potentially self-screwable while still giving him a great attack.

The only change for PURPLE PIKMIN I can think of that other people haven't mentioned (I'm looking at you, Purple Pikmin Pikmin Toss with momentum) is that Purple Pikmin D-air should have the same basic properties as DK's Headbutt (plow into ground on grounded foes and meteor/spike on air foes). Actually, I take that back, I thought up another: have All of the other Pikmin do spikes if sweetspotted (meteor on sourspot), but have Purple Pikmin D-air be a POWERFUL meteorsmash when sweetspotted and an okay spike if sourspotted. One more: Purple Pikmin should do a lot of shield damage and also have a lot of shieldstun out of Pikmin Toss. This gives Olimar just a little bit of situational shield pressure (if this is combined with previously mentioned Whistle jank, then the foe won't know if to shield or to jump and dodge when they predict a Pikmin Toss).

WHITE PIKMIN gave me the zaniest idea that's still amazing at the same time: reversed knockback. Give White Pikmin the opposite direction of knockback on all attacks. D-air would hit upward, U-air would hit downward, F-air would hit backwards, B-air would hit forwards, F-smash would be backward, U-Smash would be downward, and I think you get the picture. This improves combo game once more, and as I said with the Whistle's janked up order-changing, could make it so the opponent doesn't know what DI to do and you won't have to because you have more time to react to it than he does. I also think, that if it's not like this already, that White Pikmin should lose HP for every hit they land on the foe when Pikmin Tossed onto them, and that like Zelda's Transformation and Din's Fire relationship, they should explode (possibly make it weaker than the normal explosion) when you recall them with Whistle, making Pikmin Toss that much more useful. White Pikmin should have less shieldstun and shield damage than Red and Blue Pikmin, and if you space White Pikmin aerials to the leave/bulb/flower on their head, they should inflict a Lip's Stick flower to the foe.

RED PIKMIN are pretty much good as is. Make them the standard, average Pikmin.

BLUE PIKMIN actually have slightly longer range on grab than White Pikmin (assuming idle animations don't change hurtbox of characters)--this is not a change, just interesting--I tested it in Training Mode today. I think they should have less lag after grabs (this makes sense with the lower paragraphs regarding grabs). Blue Pikmin, in honor of their visual water effects (please forgive misuse of affects and effects), I think that at the sides of their hitboxes, they should have relatively strong push effects. If they get Pikmin Tossed onto the foe and push them VERY slightly each time they smack (you could amp up the push if you co-related it to a smaller beats-per-minute of his whacks), and possibly leave a small and weak stream of water behind them when Pikmin Tossed.

EXTRA PIKMIN STUFF: I'm thinking that maybe having one of the Pikmin (if Red is to maintain neutrality like Sweden, it can't be him) could have a Diddy's Monkey Flip style grab when Pikmin Tossed, so that the foe is temporarily detained. Obviously this is not necessary, but just a cool idea.

PIKMIN GRABS are NOT okay the way they are now. They have the Melee Kirby effect of foes escaping halfway through the throws (and sometimes the grab itself, I'm pretty sure) at low percents, which is dumb and should be stopped, because one of Olimar's greatest assets is his grabs. I think the Pikmin when doing grabs should move advance MUCH faster and go just a bit further. Here's the catch: when Pikmin MISS a grab, they enter the lay down animation (also known to me as the Mating Pose) and IGNORE COMMANDS FOR 3-7 SECONDS (make them vulnerable or invulnerable when lying down as deemed necessary for balance). This makes his recovery self-screwable and prevents spam of grabs. It might also should damage his Pikmin by 1/3rd of their health. I also think that Pikmin should be able to be hit out of their grab animation, maintaining punishment of foolishness while still being great moves.

PIKMIN TOSS (regardless of Pikmin) should have less cooldown after each toss on the ground and maybe give just an itsy bit of forward momentum/increase the distance of his Wavedash when used during the sliding (maybe only increase it if used at the end of it if you want it to not be OP). This increases his mixups on-ground and lets him be even more slippery and agile.

OLIMAR'S D-TILT should have some level of armor, possibly correlating with the CC and grounded Whistle armor. This move stinks and has no purpose. It needs one. Badly. If it has armor, then he has another approach option, which Olimar could greatly use since he's stuck in a mediocre mix between the two in his current state.

OLIMAR'S F-TILT should carry ground momentum from Wavedashing/landing and have a bit more priority. It could also be able to act as a lasting-hit N-air (think Mario's and Luigi's) that goes offstage like Diddy and Donkey Kong's dash attacks.

OLIMAR'S N-AIR is useless right now. Period. You can't expect to land this move that has total lack of range, hold-in (the effect that lets you hit will all of the hits of Roy's U-Smash, Pikachu's D-Smash, etc.), and power, could be like Pichu's Melee N-air, where spins in a forward somersault, except Olimar would hold a Pikmin. This move wouldn't be near as good as F-air or B-air for spacing, obviously, but it'd be a good move in teams and it would be a good get-off-my-back move.

OLIMAR'S NOLIMAR ATTACKS should still have hitboxes. Seriously, they should. Just be really weak and unusable.

I haven't read the previous pages, so I don't know which changes would go well with these, but if you do these changes, Olimar will be absolutely ADORED among competitive Smashers, as his inspiration/creativity and his application and simplicity thereof will be phenomenal. You could even go the distance of making Pikmin affect his weight/fallspeed, making him fall faster automatically whenever he uses Purple Pikmin in the air (could make their landing cool down 1-4 frames longer, which would fix it but not traumatize Olimar's movement) and making him go less far and fall faster when he gets hit while using them on the ground (maybe only on the heat up of the moves, and not after he tosses them far), and making White Pikmin make him more floaty in the air and less heavy on the ground. You could also do this simply from having that Pikmin in front rather than when using them (changing to the next Pikmin effect after the order is changed). You could do this with all of the Pikmin, obviously, but primarily it'd be White and Purple.

You could also decrease the maximum health of a Pikmin by whatever %, make their health revive by whatever % when they change from Leaf to Bulb and Bulb to Flower, or not include the latter of the two changes and make the phase-change more powerful. Think Yellow Pikmin doing an extra hit or two at Flower as compared to Leaf, Blue Pikmin having stronger water effects, Purple Pikmin doing more shieldstun (but not too much), White Pikmin pummeling faster, and Blue Pikmin restoring from a missed grab faster, and Red Pikmin just being more powerful.

If I can find an email address for P:M, as well as a Facebook page, I will be sending this post to both, as I REALLY want Olimar to be a varied but simplistic character that has a decent amount of options and fast movement. It took me 1 hour and 37 minutes to write the words (not the colours) in this post, so please at least look it through.

EDIT: I also want to point out that if you don't use grabs or Pikmin Toss, running around with only one Purple Pikmin is a legitimate strategy with the CURRENT Olimar. You can pick one out in moments of silence (opportune moments when the foe can't attack you) and throw it off it's not purple, and just keep rinsing and repeating (possibly keeping one Blue Pikmin for maximum grab range when needed). I honestly think that this strategy and the "whatever I get" strategy will compete with each other, both with the changes I suggested AND in the current Olimar version.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom