Olimar Wish List: Ideas for the good captain for future patches

[B.W.]

Olimar is a pretty crappy character, right?

Read this. Disregarded the rest of the post immediately

 

[SnazzyPierre]

Read this. Disregarded the rest of the post immediately

If that's ACTUALLY your process, then respectfully, there's no merit to you posting. We need to approach all of the new characters from every conceivable angle. If you can't accept the differing beliefs of something that has not been proved definitely by either side, you are not contributing at all. The very LEAST you could do is give reasons why you disagree. Yes, I am mad. I want Olimar to turn out differently than he is because I don't think he's usable right now. If you think otherwise, then defend your thesis. The more we know about how good/bad Olimar is, the more the devs and balancers can balance him. Let us continue in civil and constructive conversation rather than meaningless and derailing meandering. Keep in mind that if you use this character and enjoy it, then you have large and immediately effective bias that must be kept straight for logical (and therefore workable and lively) conversation.

 

[B.W.]

The fact that you think that Olimar is a bad character to begin with and think he needs massive tweaks means you haven't put any real time into the character.

It's not just me who thinks Olimar is a solid character, needing only a few tweaks (not necessarily buffs or nerfs) in a few places. Outright saying things like "Olimar is bad" paints a very incorrect picture of the character which makes other people stray away from the character rather than taking the time to learn anything about him. My short, and to the point (while admittedly unkind) post exists to hopefully keep such a mindset out of other players heads.

I used to be on the same boat as you. I thought Olimar needed a great amount of changes in his character as a whole. Made suggestions directly to PMBR members (in person) and they liked some of those ideas. Then I went back and said "guys don't do that, Olimar is actually really good already and his style is kind of fun to use."

I could read your post and pick it apart piece by piece, but I'd already be going in knowing that you feel like Olimar is a character in desperate need of help, but if you insist I will in fact do it.

 

[robosteven]

Olimar needs some small tweaks, and most of them that I think should be made have to do with Pikmin AI, not his actually moveset. Olimar is a great character and I have no idea what you're talking about saying he's bad. He's unexplored. He doesn't need buffs, he needs people playing him.

I skimmed your list and read the comment on the d-tilt and stopped reading entirely. It's for combo setups at high percentage, similar to Ness's d-tilt. It's little things like this that make me feel like people who have problems with Olimar should simply play other characters instead. Please put more time into the character before insisting he needs such radical changes, because he seriously doesn't. The properties of Pikmin attacks really don't need changing, it's fine that he can't use some moves without Pikmin,

also

OLIMAR'S N-AIR is useless right now. Period.

You don't play Olimar at all, this just confirmed it. Stop. Just stop. It's one of his best moves and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[B.W.]

I didn't read it before. After seeing someone say his N-Air is useless, I want to read it less than I did before. Some uses for N-Air.

Starts juggles.
Continues juggles where U-Air cannot anymore.
The first hitboxes keep the opponent in the hitbox extremely well, letting you use the move to drag opponents to the ground where you can combo into U-Tilt/U-Smash/D-Smash/F-Tilt.

 

[robosteven]

It's like saying Marth's fair is bad because it isn't a kill move.

 

[SnazzyPierre]

Maybe I'm wrong about N-air and D-tilt, I can accept that, but if you ask me, a move (D-tilt) that /only/ has use at high percentages, has low range, and a lot of cool down isn't a good move. And how the heck am I supposed to get little baby Olimar in close like that to N-air? You're not even supposed to be close with Olimar, him being a character based around spacing like Marth.

I've played the character for several days now, experimenting /a lot/, and while I may not have the experience of some of you that play Olimar, but I certainly now some jank when I see it. N-air, as good as it may be if you land the first hit, is /incredibly/ difficult to land that first hit with. I don't think it's proper risk vs. reward, either, especially with how hard it is to combo the foe if they DI properly (I haven't done that many experiments with the DI, but by the looks of it, I can't do much from it). Olimar can only do 2-5 hit combos, 5 if he's /really/ lucky, and that doesn't cut it unless it's Purple/Red Pikmin, as otherwise his combo game does not give him enough benefit for the work put into it. Characters like, I don't know, Peach, can put many less hits into a combo and don't have much to be punished, yet here is lil' baby Olimar who can hardly get a good combo and has nothing to help him afterwards. Even at high percents with his D-tilt, as you say, your other moves will only serve to knock the foe away too far to combo them for more than a one-two combo, and that's measly.

I will bring up that his Pikmin toss /stinks/. Sure, you can throw a Pikmin at them, but what good will that do when their next attack will knock them off? So, what, you get 2%? Congrats, you landed one Fox laser that could've been hit before it hit you (not sure if this knocks them away or not, but it's still adding damage) and that you can stop after it hits you and that is very laggy to use and difficult to aim from jumps (yeah, practice makes perfect, but it's not just MY aim, it's the foe's movement, which can change as much as they want, and as previously mentioned smack the Pikmin). Not to mention you might not even know which Pikmin is in front with the janky Whistle.

I don't think I need to mention recovery, but I will admit that his is trickier to gimp or punish on-stage than the other tetherers, like Lucas (assuming you know he'll tether), Tink (same as Lucas), Ivysaur, etc.

All in all, Olimar doesn't feel right to me. I feel a definite lack in more places than just AI. Yes, I want you to defend your beliefs. That's how we stay productive. Fooey if I get mad about it, just share what needs to be shared in a polite (it also helps to not seem like you're on a high horse, not that you were) manner.

EDIT: I also don't think Olimar feels spicy. Of course not all characters are going to be super duper fancy and technical, like Falcon and Fox, with respect, and I don't want him to be fancy technical, but more flash and flare to his moves to make him more varied and desired to be used wouldn't hurt at all, in fact, it'd increase the Olimar mains through the roof (at least for a little while; it'd slowly down after awhile), I guarantee it. I will ask that you two specifically ignore the N-air and D-tilt portions of my previous posts and read the rest. I don't think the rest is all that bad, and none of it changes him so dang much it can't be done. I will add that I'm not again Pikmin-less moves, but more so Pikmin-less moves that I feel stink.

 

[B.W.]

I don't have much trouble hitting N-Air. It's got decent priority. You can't just throw it out at other moves though. You have to come from underneath or come down on top of opponents, and Olimar having both the lowest short-hop in the game, on top of having a fairly high full-hop makes it fairly easy to do this.

You're looking at Pikmin Throw wrong too. For anyone not Purple, Pikmin Throw is good BECAUSE people just throw out attacks to get Pikmin off them. With good spacing, this leads to openings for Olimar to do more damage. If they don't hit Pikmin off then it does a fair amount of damage. White is really good for this because if they hit White off then it's an opening, but if they don't hit White off, he explodes and there's an even easier opening.

Purple Pikmin Throw also has some of the highest priority in the game, going completely threw most other projectiles, such as Link's Boomerang, Pit's Arrows, Wolf's (and I think Falco's) lasers, etc.

D-Tilt's range is good enough, that you can Jab 1 > D-Tilt and it'll link more often than not (the opponent needs to really be able to read you to SDI the jab). This is really good when the opponent is at high damage because it sets up for F-Air/B-Air/U-Air/N-Air and N-Air can be SHFFL'd so it can be combo'd into D-Smash for the kill. D-Tilt also low-profiles a lot of moves, which is great against tall characters with high jabs/F-Tilts/F-Smashes.

D-Tilt setting up at high damage is also a VERY good thing because Olimar does NOT have a lot of moves that lead into his kill moves when opponents are at higher damage. For lower damage combo/kill setups he has his fantastic Dash-Attack, his grabs, N-Air (since the last hit pops people upward), U-Smash and his U-Air.

 

[robosteven]

Maybe I'm wrong about N-air and D-tilt, I can accept that, but if you ask me, a move (D-tilt) that /only/ has use at high percentages, has low range, and a lot of cool down isn't a good move.

And how the heck am I supposed to get little baby Olimar in close like that to N-air? You're not even supposed to be close with Olimar, him being a character based around spacing like Marth.

This isn't Brawl, and Oli is as based around spacing as Mario is. I get what you're trying to say, but you're flat out wrong. Being close as Olimar = free combos 4 u = death 4 your opponent. The best success I've had with Olimar is by giving it enough time for your Pikmin to bloom by going all-out aggro against everyone, especially with followups offstage. The nair links into ****ing everything, especially up-smash at low percents, other aerials, and more nairs. Nairs stack up, it doesn't need range, get gud.

I've played the character for several days now, experimenting /a lot/, and while I may not have the experience of some of you that play Olimar, but I certainly now some jank when I see it. N-air, as good as it may be if you land the first hit, is /incredibly/ difficult to land that first hit with. I don't think it's proper risk vs. reward, either, especially with how hard it is to combo the foe if they DI properly (I haven't done that many experiments with the DI, but by the looks of it, I can't do much from it). Olimar can only do 2-5 hit combos, 5 if he's /really/ lucky, and that doesn't cut it unless it's Purple/Red Pikmin, as otherwise his combo game does not give him enough benefit for the work put into it. Characters like, I don't know, Peach, can put many less hits into a combo and don't have much to be punished, yet here is lil' baby Olimar who can hardly get a good combo and has nothing to help him afterwards. Even at high percents with his D-tilt, as you say, your other moves will only serve to knock the foe away too far to combo them for more than a one-two combo, and that's measly.

I would like to reiterate that nair can be comboed into itself. You don't have to land the first hit of it, even if you land only the last one you can just l-cancel it and jump and nair again and hit with it. It's his most abuseable aerial and you're suggesting that it should be changed because it's not good enough. I don't understand your opinion on this one even a little.

In response to your mention again of the d-tilt into other aerials not being strong enough, are you playing on Dreamland or something? His aerials are plenty stronk.

I will bring up that his Pikmin toss /stinks/. Sure, you can throw a Pikmin at them, but what good will that do when their next attack will knock them off? So, what, you get 2%? Congrats, you landed one Fox laser that could've been hit before it hit you (not sure if this knocks them away or not, but it's still adding damage) and that you can stop after it hits you and that is very laggy to use and difficult to aim from jumps (yeah, practice makes perfect, but it's not just MY aim, it's the foe's movement, which can change as much as they want, and as previously mentioned smack the Pikmin). Not to mention you might not even know which Pikmin is in front with the janky Whistle.

If anything, it's a distraction. You're not supposed to throw Pikmin like you would fireballs or Falco's laser. If someone's distracted by projectiles, it forces them to try to get in close, which again is a perfect opportunity to string together combos with up-smash and the "useless" nair.

I don't think I need to mention recovery, but I will admit that his is trickier to gimp or punish on-stage than the other tetherers, like Lucas (assuming you know he'll tether), Tink (same as Lucas), Ivysaur, etc.

Yeah, his tether's fine, especially because if you're not invincible while trying to edgehog, you'll get damaged by it, something completely different from every other tether. I don't think that should be changed, I just think that if you have four Pikmin alive somewhat close to you, they should all somehow join the chain without needing the whistle when they're only like two inches too far away from your pack. Maybe his aerial pluck could be faster or make Oli go slightly higher or something, but even then I don't know if it should be changed yet.

I'm trying my hardest to be respectful and all that, but it just doesn't sound like you're trying to get better with what the character has, and Olimar has a lot. Sure, some things are janky, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. From my perspective, things like Pikmin throw having weird angles and smashes, grabs, and aerials (with the exception of nair) having different properties based on Pikmin makes him one of the most tricky characters to both play and react to. I wouldn't be so quick to drastically change what's not broken.

 

[SnazzyPierre]

Don't you sillies worry, I'm trying my darndest to get good with this character. I, by nature, /need/ to play a simple character, preferably one with movement options, but still maintains simplicity. The only other non-gigantic character (and even then, it's really only Ganon, as Bowser's armor is difficult to master, DDD has a learning curve, and DK has Falcon-fast followups) that has this simplicity is Zelda, but she's way too freaking elegant for me to main for too long, so I quickly figured out Olimar was simple and set out to use him.

I get what you guys are saying about Pikmin Toss, and I've actually thought that through way before you even mentioned (been thinking it since the first post I made), but I don't feel right about it. I'm sure it has more credibility than I am currently seeing, but the Pikmin themselves and their affects don't seem to be up to par with what's needed.

Thank you for mentioning to use it from under platforms, but I must bring up that the foes generally can space a d-air if they're falling. If they're shielding, sure, SHFFL N-air on their platform and go into a grab or whatever. That much is good. I concede this happily. I still can't land it outside of that, though. Freaking impossible. Not sure how you guys are doing it.

Olimar has more approaches than previously thought, I've found (crouch cancelled dash into F-smash from a ways away, for instance), but I very much question the viability of said things. It seems a lot of what Olimar has is gimmicks.

I practiced with D-tilt in Training Mode at different percents and on different weighted characters, and I'm still not seeing combos. Sure, he gets strings that force the foe into doing something or getting hit, but it's still not a true combo, and Olimar doesn't get that much out of it. I think that's the main thing here: Olimar doesn't get enough out of what he does. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm finding that every time I get hit I get hit much worse than Olimar can to them. I very much think my proposed Whistle, air Pluck, grabs, and Pikmin type changes would improve his game in the needed areas a LOT, and of course with a balancing eye, keep him under Fox but still amazing.

WHISTLE: I had another idea for it: Give it one-hit heavy/super armor that sends you into /special fall/ (or Brawl's tumble, like with Sonic--I don't think Sonic could DJ or airdodge after his tumble, which is what I'm getting at, as well as possibly removing air Pluck's vertical movement) if no one hits you during it. This makes it harder to gimp Olimar, but they can fake you out into Whistling (or just footstool you) and murder you if you call it wrong.

 

[B.W.]

If you don't see the usefulness of D-Tilt at high damage then I don't know how to help you.

Also that would nerf Whistle from its current state wtf. Armor or not you try to Whistle your Pikmin back to you offstage and get hit and it's your stock.

Everything you're telling me just keeps saying that Olimar isn't the character for you. And one thing is for sure, he's certainly not simple.

 

[SnazzyPierre]

If you don't see the usefulness of D-Tilt at high damage then I don't know how to help you.

Also that would nerf Whistle from its current state wtf. Armor or not you try to Whistle your Pikmin back to you offstage and get hit and it's your stock.

Everything you're telling me just keeps saying that Olimar isn't the character for you. And one thing is for sure, he's certainly not simple.

I didn't think of that. Hm. You've given me something to think about. See how that works? Someone throws out an idea and it turns out not to be a good one. This is what businesses do, this is what creative companies do, this what everyone and everything trying to find a solution to a perceived problem does. Even if only one person sees the problem (and congruently if the problem doesn't actually exist), throwing out solutions might very well inspire the creative directors to do something amazing. Do you really think that the move creators for Melee had Falcon's Raptor Boost as their first thought? Probably not. How about Mario's dunk? Again, probably not. The balancers and programmers aren't going to arbitrarily throw in changes for no reason; yes, they're going to have a reason if they do something with Olimar, and because I'm not satisfied with him, I will continue to throw out ideas so more light is shed on the matter.

Again, I'm not saying these changes SHOULD be implemented, simply that they would spice him up, which is what Olimar needs most. The best way to get the RIGHT changes is to keep throwing out ideas, as otherwise, all you have is the most basic and simple changes, and I think Olimar can get more than that and still be the same character.

Olimar is just fine for me, and he's perfectly simple. He has mixups, some good movement, moves that pressure/bait, relatively good shield damage, but in the end, all of his moves have very defined times and placements to be used and to not be used. A lot of characters don't have those defined and broad moments that Olimar does, which is what attracted me to him in the first place. I wouldn't pick up a character, use them a lot, and wind up liking them unless the specific things I enjoy were on them (I'm not a huge fan of the Pikmin games to begin with, so I don't have bias). My complaints with Olimar are that I don't feel he's actually good enough to contend with the other characters and I don't think he's varied enough.

 

[B.W.]

That's what I'm saying. What you feel his strength is and what it actually is aren't the same thing. I'm an Olimar main who goes nothing but Olimar in tournaments and I attend my weekly tournament almost every week and I attend my monthly almost every month.

I'm no spectacular player but one managed to climb halfway up a 32 man bracket more than once with just Olimar. The guys I play with include Rat, Oro, Lazarond, Scythe, and any other Player in the Midwest you can think of, and none of these players think Olimar is bad or in need of any drastic buff or change.

 

[robosteven]

Tweaks. Very small tweaks.

At this point that's all I really think he needs.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Olimar is an awesome character. He really only needs a few tweaks to complete him as a character. Sure, there are a lot of things that I'd like to see added to him to make him have more interesting options, (As you could see from my many previous posts) but he's pretty solid. He has some pretty bad matchups (Diddy) due to his Pikmin getting cut through but that might be the price he pays for having the tools he has.

I was honestly baffeled when you said you had been playing him for several days while making so many claims about how bad he is and that he needs an overhaul. You are also asking for him to be a simple character but then suggest a lot of complicated changes. In some instances, it seems like you want Olimar to play himself. (meaning little effort) You'll have to spend a few weeks of playing him to get a large scope of his capabilities. Look through some of the threads on here to get some ideas on his combo set ups. A quick one is D-throw, U-smash, U-smash, U-smash, U-air, U-air.

Olimar is capable of a lot, and a single grab can lead to a 50% combo if played right. It feels like I'm always learning something new, Like how good his Neutal air is so now I have to practice using that properly. I used to use it defesivley and get punished for it, but now i'll be trying it as a combo link. In all honesty, I think his F-smash is his only bad move. He has character (bug) problems that need to be addressed but otherwise he can generally hold his own.

 

[robosteven]

Thank you for explaining my thoughts on Olimar in one post. Good job.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Since it's unanimous that Yellow Pikmin are virtually not worth having, I figured that I would post it's stats here and we can maybe talk about the tweaks that would make it more appealing and useful to use.



Attacks Hitbox Active FAF Base Dmg. L/B/F Block Adv.
Usmash (Y) 8-13, 14-18 37 14/15/16, 10 -14/-13/-12, -11
Fsmash (Y) 15-20, 21-27, 28-37 48 13/14/15, 9, 6 -19/-18/-17, -15, -11
Dsmash (Y) 10-13, 14-18 45 11/12/13, 8 -23/-21/-21, -21
Fair (Y) 7-10 31 12/13/14
Bair (Y) 10-14 38 9-12/13-10/11-14
Uair(Y) 8-11, 12-20 35 13/14/15) 8
Dair(Y) 16-18, 19-20 33 12/13/14) 6

Yellow Pikmin
HP: 9 -> 30
Walk/Run Acceleration: 0.075 -> 0.2
Walk/Run Max Speed: 2.0 -> 2.03125
Speed/Response to TurnRun: 0.75 -> 1.0
Toss throw velocity: 1.1 -> 1.3
Grab length: 1.2 -> 0.7
IMMUNE to Electric hitboxes, drowns in water after 1 second

There's a lot more data but to save space I only copied over one section since for the most part, it's all reletively the same. I'm assuming that we would want to mainly adjust the Hitlag Multiplier since thats what the Yellow is all about.


Pikmin Fair
Leaf:
ID 0, 12% (+4 Shield Damage), 361°, 25/90 BKB/KBG, Size 4.3, Pikmin/Normal, 0.5x Hitlag Multiplier, Cannot Clang
ID 1, 12% (+4 Shield Damage), 361°, 25/90 BKB/KBG, Size 3.7, Pikmin/Normal, 0.5x Hitlag Multiplier, Cannot Clang
Bud:
ID 0, 13% (+4 Shield Damage), 361°, 25/90 BKB/KBG, Size 4.3, Pikmin/Normal, 0.5x Hitlag Multiplier, Cannot Clang
ID 1, 13% (+4 Shield Damage), 361°, 25/90 BKB/KBG, Size 3.7, Pikmin/Normal, 0.5x Hitlag Multiplier, Cannot Clang
Flower:
ID 0, 14% (+4 Shield Damage), 361°, 25/90 BKB/KBG, Size 4.3, Pikmin/Electric, 0.5x Hitlag Multiplier, Cannot Clang
ID 1, 14% (+4 Shield Damage), 361°, 25/90 BKB/KBG, Size 3.7, Pikmin/Electric, 0.5x Hitlag Multiplier, Cannot Clang

Go here: http://smashboards.com/threads/olimar-frame-data-3-02.350930/ for the full list of stats.

 

[B.W.]

Just give Yellow a bigger hitbox. I understand it already has a bigger hitbox but it's only slightly bigger and on some moves it's not bigger at all.

I saw a video for Yellow's hitboxes in Brawl and I swear every move is a significant amount bigger.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Just give Yellow a bigger hitbox. I understand it already has a bigger hitbox but it's only slightly bigger and on some moves it's not bigger at all.

I saw a video for Yellow's hitboxes in Brawl and I swear every move is a significant amount bigger.

I'd like a bigger hitbox and a slightly longer Hitlag. Nothing too much but enough to make it help with the combo game, since that's what it feels like its intention is.

 

[B.W.]

More stun wouldn't be bad either but bigger hitbox would be better IMO. Just if I had to choose between the two. Cause Olimars combos are already fantastic.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Yeah, Nair can be useful. Olimar is just weird. Good weird though, it takes alot of patience to get him on a level where you can use all his moves accordingly. From what you said, I say very minor changes (like framewise) can be served to some moves.

Dair - I'd like it to come out a smidge faster. (Although I've gotten use to it atm oddly enough)
Grabs - Make it so I don't lose them before I can throw them, it's a recipe for disaster
Stock - When you're picking Pikmin when you respawn, that takes away your oppurtunity to get ahead on your oppenent, which isn't too bad, but is still an unfair advantage nonetheless.
Pikmin AI - Please. Please.
Tether - All of them are good, I don't complain when I have 4, but when I have 2 or 3 and they miss (moreso 2) when I can see the pikmin is fully rubbing againest the edge is extremely aggravating. I understand it's probbably difficult to change it for each of the different quantities but it becomes more dangerous than the opponent edgeguarding you.

He's actually really solid once you get use to his style. All of these are hopeful improvements I wish to see in him, which I think will come (he was only just released in December). Combos can be devastating once caught in them and he requires alot of planning and strategy, which feels amazing when executed. Just today I got some grab combos to an Up-Smash Purple by getting a white onto them, grabbing with blue, chaining, then letting white explode to another grab to up-throw to upsmash.

Opponents will not be able to keep up with you and often you will have the upper hand in the little area.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Is this a reasonable and plausable basic changelist for Olimar?

-Startup for Fsmash increased.
-Knockback for Fsmash increased (not by much)
-Yellow Pikmin have a larger hitbox
-Yellow Pikmin have increased hitstun (not by much)
-Pikmin AI improved so they don't "get lost"
-Tether grab box impoved to latch more reliably
-Olimar can grab the ledge if Up B misses and Olimar is at or above the ledge
-Pikmin Throw: All Pikmin that latch onto an opponent gain brief invincability frames. (enough to get one hit before being knocked off)
-Opponents can no longer get out of grab before Olimar is able to throw them

 

[RelaxAlax]

Is this a reasonable and plausable basic changelist for Olimar?

-Startup for Fsmash increased.
-Knockback for Fsmash increased (not by much)
-Yellow Pikmin have a larger hitbox
-Yellow Pikmin have increased hitstun (not by much)
-Pikmin AI improved so they don't "get lost"
-Tether grab box impoved to latch more reliably
-Olimar can grab the ledge if Up B misses and Olimar is at or above the ledge
-Pikmin Throw: All Pikmin that latch onto an opponent gain brief invincability frames. (enough to get one hit before being knocked off)
-Opponents can no longer get out of grab before Olimar is able to throw them

I'd say so, although it looks to be a long list, these things are actually teensy fix-ups that'll greatly help Olimar become a stronger character. I agree with Fsmash changes, as it's usually the least used move out of my arsenal. I don't mind not being able to callback Pikmin over an edge because its makes it so you're careful with how it's used.

Hitstun for Yellows would be helpful, maybe something as effective as an uncharged PK Freeze from Lucas. And the Pikmin invincibility would be smart as well. I'd happily welcome these changes. I'm just scared they'll overhaul him and change his way of play entirely.

 

[B.W.]

That's a solid round up. Some of those are give or take as a whole package but they're all reasonable in the sense of refining Olimar to feel like a more complete character.

 

[robosteven]

Is this a reasonable and plausable basic changelist for Olimar?

-Startup for Fsmash increased.
-Knockback for Fsmash increased (not by much)
-Yellow Pikmin have a larger hitbox
-Yellow Pikmin have increased hitstun (not by much)
-Pikmin AI improved so they don't "get lost"
-Tether grab box impoved to latch more reliably
-Olimar can grab the ledge if Up B misses and Olimar is at or above the ledge
-Pikmin Throw: All Pikmin that latch onto an opponent gain brief invincability frames. (enough to get one hit before being knocked off)
-Opponents can no longer get out of grab before Olimar is able to throw them

I would have an actual in real life erection if this became the exact changelist. This would be perfect and I would no longer have any complaints about Olimar at all. The changes to yellow Pikmin would be really nice too.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Is this a reasonable and plausable basic changelist for Olimar?

-Startup for Fsmash increased.
-Knockback for Fsmash increased (not by much)
-Yellow Pikmin have a larger hitbox
-Yellow Pikmin have increased hitstun (not by much)
-Pikmin AI improved so they don't "get lost"
-Tether grab box impoved to latch more reliably
-Olimar can grab the ledge if Up B misses and Olimar is at or above the ledge
-Pikmin Throw: All Pikmin that latch onto an opponent gain brief invincability frames. (enough to get one hit before being knocked off)
-Opponents can no longer get out of grab before Olimar is able to throw them

Smh

 

[robosteven]

Just wanted to throw this out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p0uG1EzxLXY#t=24

This happened in tournament, I guess a Pikmin got knocked away or something. I went in for the grab and expected it to work because, y'know, if a Pikmin is right behind you, it should grab.

HAHA GUESS WHAT IT DIDN'T WORK AND I LOST A STOCK

I understand that the whistle should be used frequently, but this is one of those cases where this is just a bug that needs fixing. Like, I get that when a Pikmin gets knocked away it's not supposed to be useable, but I don't get how it still counts as being in the line somehow. Olimar's got bugs, yo.

Just wanted to report it.

...and get some of my salt out.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Nice match! Your Oli is looking good. I'd say on Lucario you want to use the Pikmin throws more instead of trying to dodge the aura sphere, they'll cancel it, and gosh it's funny to hear peoples reactions :D

And yeah, that was odd how your pivot didn't get you the grab. Other than that your grabs are read very well.

I noticed if you're under a platform (Smashvilles) and pick Pikmin and you get a purple, you'll have it first in your line because the others will go atop the platform and the purple is heavier and stays close. It happens 5:45 in that video.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Just a question, Can Olimar get a few invincability frames on his tether when it connects? I believe other tether characters, (at least Z tether) get a few invincability frames when it connects.

 

[B.W.]

Just wanted to throw this out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p0uG1EzxLXY#t=24

This happened in tournament, I guess a Pikmin got knocked away or something. I went in for the grab and expected it to work because, y'know, if a Pikmin is right behind you, it should grab.

HAHA GUESS WHAT IT DIDN'T WORK AND I LOST A STOCK

I understand that the whistle should be used frequently, but this is one of those cases where this is just a bug that needs fixing. Like, I get that when a Pikmin gets knocked away it's not supposed to be useable, but I don't get how it still counts as being in the line somehow. Olimar's got bugs, yo.

Just wanted to report it.

...and get some of my salt out.

Actually you'll love this. This is a bug. No idea what causes it 100% but it seems to be triggered by a Pikmin being knocked away when you do an aerial. Maybe.

If it's the bug I think it is nothing would have worked. Pikmin stop listening to you completely except for up b I think. They don't respond to Whistle either. It only gets fixed by losing a stock.

One of the Brawl players at the tournament said it was a glitch in Brawl too. So yeah.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Actually you'll love this. This is a bug. No idea what causes it 100% but it seems to be triggered by a Pikmin being knocked away when you do an aerial. Maybe.

If it's the bug I think it is nothing would have worked. Pikmin stop listening to you completely except for up b I think. They don't respond to Whistle either. It only gets fixed by losing a stock.

One of the Brawl players at the tournament said it was a glitch in Brawl too. So yeah.

A bug in Brawl too? Wow, learn something new everyday. And whistle doesn't work ... dawg....

Olimar hurts my feelings sometimes, anyone else?

 

[B.W.]

Sometimes. Yeah I went back to the start of the video too. It even looks like you tried to do a ledge jump > F-air and no Pikmin was in your hand.

I've tried to duplicate this glitch before but the things that trigger it seem to be fairly specific.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Need something so my pikmin don't die while I'm getting hit
PLOX
Like, how lame is it, that someone gets in on me, does some DMG and not only do I take % I lose my pikmin as well. If I get sent off stage when this happens, losing a stock becomes a real possibility.
This has probably been said, but it's just so annoying.

 

[OddCrow]

I'd like a way to cancel the "hop" at the beginning of his up-b to make it less predictable to edgeguard.

Maybe holding B will negate the hop? Quickly tapping down?

Aside from that, I'd like if Olimar's forward smash became like Link/Toon Link's. Throw 1 Pikmin with the first charge (make it weaker and travel faster than now), and press A again to toss a second one at .5 the distance but more power. (Also, maybe make it so this second smash can send the 2nd Pikmin behind him?)

 

[B.W.]

The hop is what makes his recovery so good though. if you want to buff his recovery make it so he can sweetspot the ledge by being next to it even if the chain extends farther.

I still don't mind his recovery though.

 

[robosteven]

Kinda like ZSS's. Her up-b makes her go up a little and it's a HUGE advantage.

After playing a bit of ZSS though, I feel like her recovery bops Oli's in every way. I'm still in favor of slightly buffing Oli's recovery, but nothing drastic. Only slightly.

Like, his recovery and tether and everything are alright now. Maybe the tether could be a little longer though.

Idk I'm probably just salty.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If a flower touches the edge, he should grab edge. If you look at how your pikmin are latched to each other, the flower/bud/leaf is connected to the other pikmin's feet so that would be great if it applied to the ledge as well.

 

[B.W.]

ZSS doesn't pop up when she uses her Up-B. She drops like a rock.

Thanks to her Down-B though her recovery probably goes farther than horizontally than Olimar.

 

[robosteven]

Even without the down-b her tether range is cray-cray.

 

[B.W.]

Her tether range is good, but it still doesn't have a hitbox.

Olimar exclusive thiiiiiings.