Olimar Wish List: Ideas for the good captain for future patches

[NiPPs]

im saying out of the tether characters hes the best recovery wise not out of all characters. he definitely is outclassed by those you listed recovery wise. cant watch the vid now but id love to check it out when i can. all it takes is the extra effort to go deep and olimar is gimped easily but its not always that simple. like you guys said a simple nair or two and hes gone

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

im saying out of the tether characters hes the best recovery.

Still, he doesn't have the best "tether recovery," Link/Tink/Lucas/Samus, they can air dodge then tether. Giving them some invincibility time and time to remove theirselves from a bit of pressure. Some of the characters I just mentioned can then stall with their tether while maintaining their invincibility. Plus, if they chose to, they could up B or chose from a few different mix up options to get back on stage. Olimar, really doesn't have a bunch of mix up options off stage, or to get back on the stage and his up b isn't even fast. To add on further, he can't air dodge into his tether, making his tether weaker than it already is in comparison. His tether only goes in one direction as well. In additional to that, it doesn't go that far, the reach of most of the other tethers is much better, the angels of other tethers is superior and it is dependent on how many pikmin you have, which is never a constant. The height he gets from doing up b probably isn't any higher than a air dodge, if anything it's equal to or less than.


Even compared to characters that only have a tether for an recovery, he isn't better. The only characters like that, that come to my mind are ivy and zss. Both of their recoveries have much more range than olimar's inconstant up b. The only thing he has over them, is a not so scary hit box that comes out even when latching. I mean, it can stage spike, but all you need to do is avoid the up b by atk from above, behind, below etc. If ZSS catches you off stage with that up b, you die. If ivy combos into that up b, like she will, you die. The only thing he has over them, is latching while throwing a hit box out. I would hardly call that superior, in away way possible. His recovery is interesting and neat, it just isn't good enough.

I also want his up b to some sort of kill move when using flowered pikmin.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

my phone made me double post

 

[NiPPs]

Still, he doesn't have the best "tether recovery," Link/Tink/Lucas/Samus, they can air dodge then tether. Giving them some invincibility time and time to remove theirselves from a bit of pressure. Some of the characters I just mentioned can then stall with their tether while maintaining their invincibility. Plus, if they chose to, they could up B or chose from a few different mix up options to get back on stage. Olimar, really doesn't have a bunch of mix up options off stage, or to get back on the stage and his up b isn't even fast. To add on further, he can't air dodge into his tether, making his tether weaker than it already is in comparison. His tether only goes in one direction as well. In additional to that, it doesn't go that far, the reach of most of the other tethers is much better, the angels of other tethers is superior and it is dependent on how many pikmin you have, which is never a constant. The height he gets from doing up b probably isn't any higher than a air dodge, if anything it's equal to or less than.

Even compared to characters that only have a tether for an recovery, he isn't better. The only characters like that, that come to my mind are ivy and zss. Both of their recoveries have much more range than olimar's inconstant up b. The only thing he has over them, is a not so scary hit box that comes out even when latching. I mean, it can stage spike, but all you need to do is avoid the up b by atk from above, behind, below etc. If ZSS catches you off stage with that up b, you die. If ivy combos into that up b, like she will, you die. The only thing he has over them, is latching while throwing a hit box out. I would hardly call that superior, in away way possible. His recovery is interesting and neat, it just isn't good enough.

I also want his up b to some sort of kill move when using flowered pikmin.

idk man i beg to differ still. sure those characters can spot dodge and then use their tether to hit the stage but a simple extra ounce of patience counters that with a fair or nair(same with olimar though) i feel that four pikmin is longer then all the tethers there but samuses. his up b hit box its more often then i would think sometimes too making it hard to edge guard him. ivysaur is straight up fair bait every time he recovers as long as ur timing is right. zss ur right about and i forgot about her. that recovery is almost unpunishable if they do everything right which isnt hard at all. olimars tether is definately longer with 4 pikmin than links with an airdodge. i miss the ledge with link more with an airdodge recovery than i do with olimars. like you said though, olimars recovery is not always four pikmin though but at four its longer especially from a low recovery angle. you can also count his neutral b as an airdodge to with out the invis to get that extra boost you need if you will too. ultimately though olimars recovery isnt the best you are right but its definately satisfactory for now :D

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

I had an idea and I don't like it. It's a strategy for playing Olimar that generally isn't fun for me or my opponent and it's based on the Flowering of his Pikmin. Basically, since Olimar does significantly better with Flowered Pikmin, the strategy is to avoid the opponent untill his Pikmin are flowered. Since Olimar has a Tether recovery and he can be hard to knock off the ledge, you can camp there until you get flowered.

I think that this strategy will commonly be used unless they do something to discourage or make camping the edge till you get flowered not worth it. I feel like if they reduced the time it takes to get the flower, people wouldn't bother camping the edge. My suggestion is 15-20 seconds to flower instead of the current 30 seconds.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I had an idea and I don't like it. It's a strategy for playing Olimar that generally isn't fun for me or my opponent and it's based on the Flowering of his Pikmin. Basically, since Olimar does significantly better with Flowered Pikmin, the strategy is to avoid the opponent untill his Pikmin are flowered. Since Olimar has a Tether recovery and he can be hard to knock off the ledge, you can camp there until you get flowered.

I think that this strategy will commonly be used unless they do something to discourage or make camping the edge till you get flowered not worth it. I feel like if they reduced the time it takes to get the flower, people wouldn't bother camping the edge. My suggestion is 15-20 seconds to flower instead of the current 30 seconds.

After playing a lot of aggressive players and what not, I just play Conservative/passive. I'll change it up once they get above me, I start combo'ing or when edge guarding. I wish I could be aggressive with this character, but I feel like I can't with his current tool set. My pikmin do live longer this way though.

 

[robosteven]

...I just want the pluck speed to be faster. I don't like pressing b and not having a Pikmin come out.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Question: Does anyone feel like the time it takes the Pikmin to flower is too long? Or is it just me. 30 Seconds is a long time imo.

Anyways, I want to see some adjustments to it and feel like having more ideas about it is a good thing, so here it is:

In the case of keeping the time it takes to Flower at 30 seconds, they could make it so that the next 4 Pikmin that you would pull are set to the 30 second timer to flower. This proposal may seem difficult to grasp so I'll clarify with an example. You would start a match and pull 4 Pikmin and throw them off the edge. After 30 seconds pass, you pull another 4 Pikmin and these Pikmin are all flowered. This would be cool to me because in the Pikmin games, when the Pikmin are left in the ground, they will eventually Flower. I think this could add more depth to Olimar's Pikmin management and give him something to work with through his invincability.

Uses:
Play normally for the first 30 seconds of the game and then you can cycle your Pikmin without loosing power. This still incentivises you to keep your Pikmin alive because if you get careless you will be reduced to Leaf or Bud Pikmin again.
Gives Olimar something to compensate for his lack of invincability attack advantage when repawning. If the first Pikmin he plucks is a flowered white, he could take that opportunity to get a quick hit in before pulling the other 3.

One of the difficult things for me to grasp and be ok with is how inconsistant and random Olimar is. Generally when characters hit someone who is at a high percent with a kill move, they will die. But Olimar can hit with a kill move but not a kill Pikmin. This is mostly the case with having leaf Pikmin and you have to 'wait' till you get your power back. Like if you get killed first and your opponent has about 100%, you generally need to wait till your at least Bud to finish his stock off. It just makes me feel like I'm almost always at a disadvantage.

Another alternate option is to just have a 1/3 chance of plucking either a Leaf, Bud, or Flower Pikmin. I don't know how hard it would be to implement my original idea, so I'm just providing an alternate idea.

 

[Player -0]

Does Olimar have a grab hitbox right in front of him that grabs in the air? Link and Ivy have this I believe, not sure if Olimar does.

 

[NiPPs]

like brawl, olimars grab can grab people from underneath platforms if they're slightly sticking/poking through it. the flowering pikmin is fine as is. the one thing i find kind of awkward is how bair sometimes sends them in front of you instead of where you think they will go. its the stale part of the hitbox but i dont like it because it puts you in such an awkward situation where you can't follow up too much

 

[The Derrit]

I think olimar needs 2/3 things to become a really noticeable character. One has been mentioned - when he Fsmashes at the edge, they fall to their death. Either fix that as people have been saying, OR give pikmin falling to their death a weak hitbox. They fall at an angle such that you couldn't gimp a character coming straight up vertically, and would only really be effective in certain situations. This could also be used from platforms onstage for tech pressure or other things! I think that this would be pretty ****.

Also, in all honesty pikmin throw isn't any good. Every pikmin except for purple (of course) can be immediately knocked off before a character even takes damage. Get stuck by a pikmin? Jump and n-air to knock it off. It works with almost every character in the game, is incredibly safe, and can be done through a pikmin throw into an approach. I believe that pikmin, if they latch, should get a few frames of invincibility - enough that they can slap once. This way a pikmin getting thrown at you is something you actually have to think about, as opposed to now where if you're going in to attack it doesn't even matter, because the pikmin will get knocked away without you taking any damage anyways.

Last, Olimar's aerials are the only aerials in the game that can clash with grounded attacks and lose. Because you're hitting with the pikmin, if that pikmin gets knocked away, you haven't been hit yet - so hitting a pikmin and then hitting Olimar is possible. This is kind of dumb. The least that could be done is if you clank with a pikmin physical attack, you clank like it's any other attack, instead of then attacking through it and hitting Olimar.

 

[GeZ]

I gotta say Oracle really hit the nail on the head for this thread. Olimar is crazy. It's no secret. His recovery isn't the best, but it is far from the worst, and with proper management, can kill people trying to edgeguard you. His spacing is metal as hell and I've used it to mess up people I've played with. Combos ending in pikmin throw help keep the damage flowing in between combos and bugs your opponent, while his combos by themselves almost do too much. He gimps really easily, has an incredible grab game, and can hit like nine buses. Did I mention his spike is blanabas. Like holy hell.

I really don't think people should be discussing Olimar changes, and Olimar overhauls this early. Nobodies put in the work to really break into his meta, and as a result we've had people complaining about his boring gameplay since day one.

And I can assure you Olimar isn't garbage. One of my sparring buddies has a very competent Marth, and is honestly a much more solid player than me overall. But, whenever we do the Olimar vs Marth match, I usually come out on top because Olimar's spacing is disgustingly good.

 

[B.W.]

When I started playing Olimar I thought "man this character could really use some kind of overhaul" and to an extent I still think that because I think RNG stuff is stupid. But if I had to place stuff Olimar could really use it'd be these things.

-An easier way to tell which Pikmin is in front. Someone mentioned changing his antenna to be the color of the Pikmin who is first in line, and honestly, I thought that would be a cool addition a long time ago as well. It's like the guy read my mind.
-The Pikmin in the front of the line stays in front unless he falls out somehow (side-B, F-Smash, just being stupid). It would make managing your Pikmin and getting/keeping the desired effect a lot easier. This kind of makes having multiple of one type of Pikmin kinda meh.
-Being able to choose a trajectory for Pikmin Throw. This is something I probably want above all. It sucks that throwing my Pikmin is determined by RNG.

Otherwise, I'm kind of with GeZ, though I don't think Olimar hits all that hard unless you use a Purple Pikmin, but it can seem like he hits hard all the time because he probably has the highest potential damage output.

Seriously, use Pikmin Throw in the middle of your combos. The endlag is so small you can fit it in F-Air chains and it can do incredibly dumb amounts of damage. It's really easy to get your opponents up to 100%+ very quickly once you learn how.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

When I started playing Olimar I thought "man this character could really use some kind of overhaul" and to an extent I still think that because I think RNG stuff is stupid. But if I had to place stuff Olimar could really use it'd be these things.

-An easier way to tell which Pikmin is in front. Someone mentioned changing his antenna to be the color of the Pikmin who is first in line, and honestly, I thought that would be a cool addition a long time ago as well. It's like the guy read my mind.
-The Pikmin in the front of the line stays in front unless he falls out somehow (side-B, F-Smash, just being stupid). It would make managing your Pikmin and getting/keeping the desired effect a lot easier. This kind of makes having multiple of one type of Pikmin kinda meh.
-Being able to choose a trajectory for Pikmin Throw. This is something I probably want above all. It sucks that throwing my Pikmin is determined by RNG.

Otherwise, I'm kind of with GeZ, though I don't think Olimar hits all that hard unless you use a Purple Pikmin, but it can seem like he hits hard all the time because he probably has the highest potential damage output.

Seriously, use Pikmin Throw in the middle of your combos. The endlag is so small you can fit it in F-Air chains and it can do incredibly dumb amounts of damage. It's really easy to get your opponents up to 100%+ very quickly once you learn how.

I want to explore the possibility of "-The Pikmin in the front of the line stays in front unless he falls out somehow (side-B, F-Smash, just being stupid)."

The only real problem I find with it is having the ability to continue to use the White Pikmin and rack up an insane amount of damage in a short time. So how can we balance it out? It may be a viable option and may just need some balancing on the White overall damage.

Maybe adjust the White pikmin to reduce the contact damage but make the flower it spawns remain until the end of the duration (unshakable). Basically it can just average the damage.
Currently I think that Fair deals 14% on contact and the flower adds about 3% to = 17% total. 25% if left alone.
Adjust it so that it deals 8% on contact and the flower that is unshakable remains for 5 seconds which deals 5% for a total of 13%. Each consecutive hit would increase the power of the flower by one stage and reset the timer. So first hit deals 8% with a 5 second flower effect dealing 1% per second, adding extra 5%. The second hit would reset the timer and deal 2% for 5 seconds, adding an extra 10%. The top level of the flower resets the timer and deals 3% for 5 seconds, adding an extra 15%. Any attacks after this would just reset the timer.

Now that sounds like a lot of damage can be racked up but keep in mind that the timer resets and does not stack. The top combo for damage is probably a grab > 1 pummel > down throw > fair > fair. Now that adds up to about 5 (pummel, level 1 flower) + 5 (throw) + 8 (fair) + 2 (level 2 flower) + 8 (fair) + 15 (5 seconds of 3% per second) = 43%. And that's with the opponent at 0% and probably using bad DI. The current version of this combo using only White Pikmin deals a total of 41% with the opponent wiggleing out of the flower immediatly.
This also would give the Olimar player an incentive to connect with the White Pikmin again to reset the timer and level up the flower. Makes him want to be a bit more aggressive. I think its also balanced out a bit due to the white Pikmin having such low healt, that it likely wont survive for too long at the front of the line.

 

[AstraEDM]

Popping in to say that if possible the antenna changing color for the front pikmin is an amazing idea. I find myself full hopping just so they spread out and I know my order, that would be a quick quality of life fix.

 

[NightShadow6]

Just make it so you can whistle a pikmin out of the fsmash after a certain point.

As of right now, they can be on the ground and take about 2 seconds to get up. Kind of sucks if you want that purple that is sitting there.

 

[B.W.]

If you wanted that purple that's sitting there then why'd you waste him on a terrible attack like Purple Pikmin F-Smash though?

F-Smash needs some kind of change as a whole. It's pretty bad move to be honest. I don't mind that Pikmin take a minute to recover from it, but there should be a reason for them to recover that like. F-Smash as an entire move is a waste.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

F-Smash needs some kind of change as a whole. It's pretty bad move to be honest. I don't mind that Pikmin take a minute to recover from it, but there should be a reason for them to recover that like. F-Smash as an entire move is a waste.

I kind of agree with this. It comes out slow and generally doesn't hit hard. If the Purple hits, its good but its usually not worth using unless your edge guarding, and there are usually better options.

 

[Player -0]

An idea is maybe get the F-Smash to get the spacing properties from Brawl so it knocks away but have it so it doesn't kill?

If you were to do that it would need less endlag and a decent initial knockback but low growth.

It just seems like Down Smash is the thing to go for killing on the ground.

 

[robosteven]

If the F-smash were ACTUALLY A KILL MOVE, I'd have no problem with it. The range is solid, and the endlag is fair punishment for the range. ...but it's a Smash Attack. It really ought to have a bit more kill potential.

 

[Player -0]

At the end when the pikmin are falling they have next to no knockback (I could be wrong, haven't tested it a lot) which kind of destroys the reason it's good, which is its range.

 

[robosteven]

If' you're RIGHT NEXT to someone and use an f-smash, yeah, it can be used as a kill move. However, there are better options like d-smash that just completely negate the point of even using f-smash.

#fixthefsmash

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

I wish it came out a little faster because between the startup and the endlag, a lot can happen. I also think the they should retain a hitbox as they fall off an edge. It would make it useful for being on platforms and edge guarding. It's also the price you pay for f-smahing (sacrificing) them off the stage.

 

[Player -0]

If they retained a hitbox while falling then that would be too good, it would give free pressure/gimps for anyone trying to recover from below. It would be effective against tether characters especially.

I think the start lag and end lag are fine it's just the hitbox is extremely weak (sourspot knee weak?) so it destroys the point of having an F-Smash.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

If they retained a hitbox while falling then that would be too good, it would give free pressure/gimps for anyone trying to recover from below. It would be effective against tether characters especially.

I think the start lag and end lag are fine it's just the hitbox is extremely weak (sourspot knee weak?) so it destroys the point of having an F-Smash.

For having the retained hitbox, I can see what you mean by it maybe being too good, but I disagree a bit. I feel like there would be a balance. For one, I don't think it breaks any rules. There are many characters that give free pressure/gimps like: Links, Zelda, Diddy, Mario, Peach, etc. I wouldn't suggest to have them maintain power while falling but I would have a small knockback and about half normal smash damage. Second, he's also loosing power when he does it since they are likely, flowered or bud. While other characters have disposable, on call, potential pressure/gimps, Olimar's are his actual attacks. If he f-smashes all 4 of them off the stage in an attempt to gimp, he will have to pluck a new set and be at their lowest power. High risk high reward right?

If they don't have a hitbox when falling, then I feel like they should be able to get called back.

 

[Zuzudae]

Wynaut some sort of mechanic with whites that after around the third use (after they flower) they explode as well?

And something on the note of his recovery I sort of liked hearing.
You jump off a pikmin as a new up b and do some sort of stance that has lingering hitboxes, and depending on what pik you jump off of, your jump has a bit of variance.
Flowered whites explode under you, giving you a faster trajectory/kb
Maybe purples just make you jump higher or something, idk

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

So I have this problem with Olimar where I want to be able to have more control over which Pikmin I get and use. I've made numerous suggestions, and I'll make another. I obviously don't want them all to be added, but just considered.

The Problem? When I have at least 3 Pikmin that are either Yellow or White, and the opponent is around 150% or higher. This makes it so I have to get them at even higher percents to kill them, and having stronger knockback Pikmin would be better, even if it is leaf. Often in order to do this you end up tossing them off the edge, but that takes time, and the opponent will almost always take that opportunity to rush you.

The Solution? Make it so the Pikmin are able to explode like the White Pikmin, but only if the player holds the B button for a half of a second after landing on an opponent. The damage and knockback would be much less than the White, but it would be used more as a cycling Pikmin technique. It could also double as a combo continuer. Purple would be exempt from this ability to explode.

 

[B.W.]

I don't think I've ever not been able to kill someone that was at 100%+ with flowered Pikmin using D-Smash except for white. White just has really bad knockback, and that's kind of the point, even though it's dumb.

Gotta cover that recovery. Don't be afraid to chase people off the stage sir.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Agreed with the ladybug man
All it takes is a ftilt, fair, throw, dsmash, usmash etc
Killing isn't really a problem, for me, it's just people who are ether really fast or aggro, that are a problem.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

I generally fight a really aggro DK and all airs, usmash, dsmash, fsmash, don't kill him with yellow till he's well above 150%. Fighting a few other mid weight characters, I can get kills with yellow around 125% the only real problem that I have is feeling stuck with irrelevant Pikmin while they are at high percents, and I end up taking more damage than neccisary. I don't always get a line of irrelevant Pikmin, but when I do, it sucks.

I do go out after a lot of characters, but 4/10 times, I'll loose some/all of my Pikmin and it can sometimes take a stock. No risk, no reward, so I still do it but I hope it gets tuned better.

His ftilt is a surprise killer, but I admittedly don't use it often. Whenever I try I get punnished hard. You guys know any ways to combo it well? Especially against DK?

 

[B.W.]

F-tilt moves Olimar forward, has a surprisingly long lasting hitbox and has good knockback. It's also faster than other ground moves.

The DK thing is kind of just DK, but another major factor you may be missing out on is Olimar can chase his opponents off stage pretty far to secure his kills, and he can make it back usually.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I think I will be able to play the DK MU tomorrow. idk If I will be able to record, but I'll be able to give you some tips after I try it out.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

I think I will be able to play the DK MU tomorrow. idk If I will be able to record, but I'll be able to give you some tips after I try it out.

The DK I fight is Boss. Watchout for Jab into grab. Cargo throw off the stage into fair is your worst nightmare. DK can also edgeguard Olimar for free if you approach from below. Among the best tactics I've found against him is to DD grab combo. You can usually get 2 usmashes and 2 fairs off of a grab and early to mid percents.

 

[Player -0]

You know how hard it would be to program the Pikmin exploding? I have no clue but it has to be pretty fricken hard.

@ez.™ You found someone in the area?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You know how hard it would be to program the Pikmin exploding? I have no clue but it has to be pretty fricken hard.

@ez.™ You found someone in the area?

I made a crew

 

[Soniv]

I don't think I've ever not been able to kill someone that was at 100%+ with flowered Pikmin using D-Smash except for white. White just has really bad knockback, and that's kind of the point, even though it's dumb.

Gotta cover that recovery. Don't be afraid to chase people off the stage sir.

I'm always afraid to chase too far off stage because I feel like one or two of my pikmin inevitably just fall away for no reason. I know this is easily solvable with a whistle, but I just wish I didn't have to worry about randomly not having a pikmin.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If your the one chasing, you shouldn't even be scared. If you get knocked off, then you should be scared.

 

[Bazzeltroff]

Some interesting things I have thought of while playing Olimar are these... Keep in mind, this completely changes the character to a degree...

So instead of having to pluck Pikmin, you automatically start with 5. The thing is here that you start with EVERY COLOR OF PIKMIN. The order can be random, and can be rearranged with the whistle, etc... But now, the neutral B gets changed to something else, something that can help him. No idea what, but something nonetheless.

His Pikmin can still be killed, and still flower, however, whenever they do die, another one respawns on your line up of the same color. It keeps him consistent. There could be a timer and whatnot to make it balanced, but it makes it so he doesn't have to waste time pulling up a pikmin.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I like the idea of an extra pikmin and one of each type.

 

[Soniv]

I don't think having auto spawning Pikmin would be a very good idea. I would love to come back to life with a couple Pikmin so I don't have to waste invis frames plucking, but removing Pikmin pluck kinda removes part of his identity, imo.

It also removes a lot of the counterplay involved for opponents. It wouldn't feel as good to control Olimar and control/kill his Pikmin if they just come back to life without Oli having to so anything, and he would have an extra special move.