Olimar Wish List: Ideas for the good captain for future patches

Blue Mage

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#1
"Borrowed" from ez, this thread will be where we post and discuss what we think Olimar needs for the future patches of P:M.

Please, if you post something, back it up with legitimate reasons as to why you would like to see that change, don't write stuff like "Oli needz 6 pikmen bcuz he sux lmao."

So anyway, here's some stuff from the general thread:

RECOVERY:
As we all should know, Olimar's recovery is MAGNITUDES better than the one he has in Brawl, but even with all those changes he still has a very difficult time recovering.

Olimar also has a very difficult recovery as he's incredibly vulnerable when knocked off stage. virtually any attempt to attack him while off stage is unapposed. Since he needs use his whistle to get his Pikmin back to him (often needs to use it twice) as will as get the hop from the Pikmin Pluck, he is mostly unable to defend himself. Other characters with similar recovery styles have at least a defense (Mario Cape, Tornado, Ivysaur Dair, and a very long tether) and I think Olimar should have a few more options that are effective and not so predictable.

A few Ideas:
Hover Whistle. It could make him hover for a brief moment which would allow him to get closer to the stage and give him more flexability defensivley when returning.
Pros: This would give him a great change up when returning to the stage, throwing people off on where he will be. It would also prevent the uneccissary drop he get from using the whistle in the current 3.0 version. It would also be a great tool for baiting and faking people out while on stage. This is very useful since Olimar doesn't have an answer when being attacked from below.
Cons: The only con I can really see is if you wanted to fall but it kept you up. Not much of a con.

Purple Pikmin Momentum. Throwing the Purple Pikmin would increase Olimars forward momentum.
Pros: For recovery, it would get him back to the stage quicker. On stage, he could use it as a way to get in and start a combo.
Cons: Sometimes you want to keep your distance from your opponent.

Pikmin also need to be more reliable. Many times it would seem as though the Pikmin should have tethered to the ledge but they miss.
Here are some ideas posted by GrizzleDrizz1ed from the general discussion thread. Personally, I am in favor of all of these ideas, as Olimar needs some serious help in his recovery. I cannot count how many times I've tether'd to the edge from max distance, only to have my Pikmin at the top of the chain touch the edge, scrunch up against it, failing to tether onto it as I fall to my doom.


MOVESET:
I would like dsmash, fsmash and maybe a few other pikmin attacks to receive some sorta buff. The biggest problem I have with those attacks, is the fact that, we ether hit the person or they send your pikmin to the next dimension. I don't mean they kill them, but your pikmin get sent extremely far out of the players sight. So far in fact, that if you were to simply wait for them to come back, you would already be dead. You can whistle them back, but you don't always have time to do so and just the sight of your pikmin not being visible is rather annoying.
I would like the moves to have more priority or maybe be able to clank or something. The moves are pretty good once you wait around for your pikmin to flower, but come on!

Another thing I have noticed, is when you are hit, while you're off stage, sometimes your pikmin just fall off. The hover whistle would fix that or they could remove that problem from the game completely. Ether would be fine with me.
From ez in the general thread. I've noticed this as well, when a move collides with a Pikmin during a Pikmin-based move, your Pikmin get sent sky-high. They'll come down after a while, but it takes forever, even when you whistle them it takes a bit for them to come down. Olimar's Pikmin-based moves should receive a bit more priority, or Pikmin should be given some launch resistance (not so much that they won't even flinch, but enough to prevent them from being rocketed to the moon when they get hit).

Also, I believe this was discussed somewhere else, but when Olimar uses his F-Smash too close to the edge, the Pikmin will fall to their doom, being unable to be whistled back. I think Pikmin used in F-Smash should be able to be whistled back, since F-Smash off the edge is a good way to pester opponents who like to recover low, not to mention the range it has when right on the edge.


GENERAL:
One good idea that I've seen posted is the light at the end of Olimar's antennae change color depending on which Pikmin he has next in his lineup.

I like this idea, and I see a pro and con from it:

Pro: Tells you which Pikmin is coming up next in your lineup. When Olimar stands still, is shielding, or when you're in the heat of the moment, sometimes it's hard to see which Pikmin will be used next. I believe this change will help all the micromanaging Olimar has to do with his Pikmin, as letting him know what's next in line will help him set up for his next attack.

Con: While this will help Oli see what he was next in line, it will also show your opponent what you have next, giving them a heads up about what Pikmin will be coming their way, and what they can do against it.

Here's some ideas I see debated alot:
Should Olimar have more Pikmin than 4?

My thoughts: I think Olimar is fine with only 4 Pikmin. It encourages the player to value their Pikmin more, instead of mindlessly throwing them knowing you can easily replenish your large army.

I would say, though, Oli could have 5 Pikmin at most, giving him the ability to (technically) have all 5 colors in a lineup.


Olimar needs to spawn with Pikmin when he dies! I hate wasting my invincibility plucking.

My thoughts: I don't think it matters, really. Where would the Pikmin spawn from anyway? If they spawned from the ground, they could be hit by the opponent, rendering them useless. If they spawned from the air around Oli, they would fall, and again be able to be struck by the opponent. I say Olimar has plenty of time to land from the platform and pluck a few before it wears off. If the opponent tries to get antsy, you can always knock them away with a jab combo or f-tilt.

Anyway, this is all I got for now, and I've probably missed a ton, but hopefully we'll be able to get some ideas rolling.
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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#2
I'm not sure if this is qualified as something that should be tweaked er not, but I have noticed when Olimar is touching a wall/edge of the stage, if you up B while you are touching the wall(facing it) your up B won't grab the edge. I'm not sure if we can call this a player error because our up B comes out diagonally or if that is something that should be tweaked.

Pros: You receive a little bit more, in terms of recovering. I don't think that is to big, but I can see how it would be helpful.
Cons: You can recover :wario:

Props4disthreadyo
 

Blue Mage

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#3
I'm not sure if this is qualified as something that should be tweaked er not, but I have noticed when Olimar is touching a wall/edge of the stage, if you up B while you are touching the wall(facing it) your up B won't grab the edge. I'm not sure if we can call this a player error because our up B comes out diagonally or if that is something that should be tweaked.

Pros: You receive a little bit more, in terms of recovering. I don't think that is to big, but I can see how it would be helpful.
Cons: You can recover :wario:

Props4disthreadyo

Thanks! I figured that I should do a little more than lurk XD

Btw, stages are you having that recovery problem on? I went onto Warioware, fell off, hugged the wall, and my up B hit the ledge just fine, unless I'm doing your example wrong XD

Edit: Never mind, I found out you meant. Like on Fountain of Dreams, if I recover too low and hug the wall, my mins will bunch up at the ledge when I recover.

Seems to happen on stages where the ledge pokes away from walls a bit (like the one in FoD).
 
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GrizzleDrizz1ed

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#4
Thanks for this Thread!

Some more ideas to make Olimar more valuble. I believe his Pikmin should all serve a purpose. From what I can tell, the White, Purple, and Blue Pikmin serve it well and the Yellow is mostly useful for short hoppers or face hugging on occation also good against Mewtwo and Pikachu. Red generally feels, meh to me. Not particularly more useful than any other Pikmin for the situation unless battleing Mario's Fireballs. I would like to see those two Pikmin get a bit more of a useful buff.

I have an Idea for the Yellow and Red Pikmin that I think would be awesome and a great change up.
I would suggest that when using the Yellow Pikmin as an ariel attack, that it would function as a multi hit attack similar to G&W number 5 Hammer, only it would hit 3 times instead of 5. I believe this would catch people off when they shield thinking they can do a quick counter.
For the Red Pikmin, I would suggest having him hit opponents at more of an awkward angle.

Essentially what I'm looking to do with these buff is to make all Pikmin valuable when thrown and while in hand. White , Purple, and Blue are great in their own way and dont need tweaks (but I would like the White to have a little bit more health.)
 

Phan7om

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#5
I always thought of tweaking Olimar's whistle so its kinda like shine. It doesnt have to come out on frame 1, but I could see potential in Olimar using WaveWhistle lol. It doesnt even have to spike or anything, just enough to get a hitbox out.

I also recall from Brawl, Red Pikmin had the strongest aerial moves, and Yellow Pikmin had the largest and most lingering hitboxes. I think a good way to make them useful would be to exaggerate their abilities slightly, allowing the yellow pikmin to have extremely large disjonts and being able to hit people on the top platform of Battlefield with a Yellow Up-Smash. And having red pikmin have higher aerial damage output (like a ~20% fresh F-air) with knockback similar to Purple pikmin. < These examples might be pushing it but I hope you get the idea...:smirk:
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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#6
allowing the yellow pikmin to have extremely large disjonts
I feel like yellow pikmin have a larger hit box on dair than the rest of the pikmin, this is only when its flowered but yea. It would be nice if they had a larger hit box on other moves as well. I'm not sure about the shine tho.

Thanks for this Thread!


I have an Idea for the Yellow and Red Pikmin that I think would be awesome and a great change up.
I would suggest that when using the Yellow Pikmin as an ariel attack, that it would function as a multi hit attack similar to G&W number 5 Hammer, only it would hit 3 times instead of 5. I believe this would catch people off when they shield thinking they can do a quick counter.
For the Red Pikmin, I would suggest having him hit opponents at more of an awkward angle.

Essentially what I'm looking to do with these buff is to make all Pikmin valuable when thrown and while in hand. White , Purple, and Blue are great in their own way and dont need tweaks (but I would like the White to have a little bit more health.)
I do like the idea of having multi-hitting moves. me want shield pressure. Aside from throwing pikmin, which can be shaken off easily, there isn't a lot of pressure coming from Olimar, especially on shield.

Red sending people at an awkard angle like mario's bair would be great. At the moment, red pikmin are like a nerfed purple, with the exception that you can sometimes combo off it a little bit more than a purple.

White pikmin need something more. They die to just about anything. I think it would be cool if they could take more damage once they have attached themselves to someone or something. I also think they should maybe make the timer for exploding quicker.
 

Blue Mage

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#7
I always thought of tweaking Olimar's whistle so its kinda like shine. It doesnt have to come out on frame 1, but I could see potential in Olimar using WaveWhistle lol. It doesnt even have to spike or anything, just enough to get a hitbox out.

I also recall from Brawl, Red Pikmin had the strongest aerial moves, and Yellow Pikmin had the largest and most lingering hitboxes. I think a good way to make them useful would be to exaggerate their abilities slightly, allowing the yellow pikmin to have extremely large disjonts and being able to hit people on the top platform of Battlefield with a Yellow Up-Smash. And having red pikmin have higher aerial damage output (like a ~20% fresh F-air) with knockback similar to Purple pikmin. < These examples might be pushing it but I hope you get the idea...:smirk:

Thanks for this Thread!

Some more ideas to make Olimar more valuble. I believe his Pikmin should all serve a purpose. From what I can tell, the White, Purple, and Blue Pikmin serve it well and the Yellow is mostly useful for short hoppers or face hugging on occation also good against Mewtwo and Pikachu. Red generally feels, meh to me. Not particularly more useful than any other Pikmin for the situation unless battleing Mario's Fireballs. I would like to see those two Pikmin get a bit more of a useful buff.

I have an Idea for the Yellow and Red Pikmin that I think would be awesome and a great change up.
I would suggest that when using the Yellow Pikmin as an ariel attack, that it would function as a multi hit attack similar to G&W number 5 Hammer, only it would hit 3 times instead of 5. I believe this would catch people off when they shield thinking they can do a quick counter.
For the Red Pikmin, I would suggest having him hit opponents at more of an awkward angle.

Essentially what I'm looking to do with these buff is to make all Pikmin valuable when thrown and while in hand. White , Purple, and Blue are great in their own way and dont need tweaks (but I would like the White to have a little bit more health.)
Great ideas in these posts, I especially like the focus on red Pikmin.

They seem to have the same problem they did in Brawl: they're not very good at anything in particular. Every other color pretty much covers anything a red can do. I feel that reds should be tweaked a bit to have harder hitting aerials, and have that downward hitting angle like ez mentioned.

As for the shine whistle, I could see it happening. It may seem weird, but I could see the hitbox being when Olimar jerks his head forward. Not only that, but Oli can act pretty fast out of a whistle, more so in the air than on the ground. So maybe OOS SH Whistle, waveland might equal some combo opportunities? It would also help when Oli is trying to call his pikmin back while the opponent is all over him. The knockback from the whistle hit will give you enough time to get your pikmin back and give you a slight breather.

For yellows, I say giving them a multi hit would be great. What would you guys say, as compensation to the multi hitting, the knockback of their aerials (barring dair) is reduced, that way we can have flowered yellows as really nasty combo tools, given that flower yellows give increased hitstun.

Finally, I have some things for whites, some ideas I thought of a bit ago:

-Increased health
-Slightly increased knockback on any move involving them
-Quicker explosion timer
-Slightly increased knockback on explosion
-Slightly reduced damage

What do you guys think? I mainly think they should receive a little bit more knockback, as most of the time, hitting the opponent with a white when they're at low health will result in getting hit back due to the low knockback/hitstun
 

Phan7om

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#8
What do you guys think? I mainly think they should receive a little bit more knockback, as most of the time, hitting the opponent with a white when they're at low health will result in getting hit back due to the low knockback/hitstun
I think thats really the only way white pikmin couldn't be OP, giving them more knockback even by a little would make them the best pikmin, assuming they still keep their other abilities. It also allows people to mindlessly smash/aerial without strategizing your moveset by which pikmin you have next. I do like the idea where they increase the knockback on the explosion, or decreasing the timer. The only ones I think they should change should be reds and yellows. The multihit idea with the yellow's, to me, seems like it would be worse cuz of SDI. GnW 5 hammer wasnt good just because of that. The multihits would have to come out pretty fast like MK's fair, or Peach's dair to be somewhat viable. If the speed is similar to the 5 hammer, people could easily react to it and SDI with ease. Not saying its a bad idea, its just my opinion. Since they are known in Brawl to have larger lingering hitboxes, just extending them out by a little just to make them more disjointed than usual... maybe not as much as my previous example... but maybe have Yellow f-air have a slightly longer hitbox than Marths.
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

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#9
Here is my opinion on all the major changes I'd like to see on Olimar that would help balance him with the environment he's now in. Now I realize that its fairly early to solidify these conclusions but I think that it is pretty apparent where his crippling aspects lie.

Hover Whistle - Hovers for a moment when using Whistle. Consecutive whistles would reduce the hover effect. After about 3 whistles, there would be no hover effect.
Controlled Pikmin Pluck - Holding the B button when plucking a Pikmin would pluck either a White or Purple Pikmin. Tapping the B button when plucking a Pikmin would pluck a Red, Yellow, or Blue Pikmin. Olimar always brought the right tool for the job.
Varied Yellow and Red Pikmin Attributes - Have Yellow be useful in hand for shield pressure, and Red could have medium KB and send at an awkward angle.
White Pikmin Health Incease - Not by much but enough to survive at least a get up attack.
Faster Pikmin Flower - Reduce the time it takes to get the Pikmin to Flower from 15 - Bud + 15 - Flower = 30. To 10 - Bud + 10 - Flower = 20.
Increase Pikmin Throw Speed - Just enough to allow Olimar to throw a pikmin and follow it up with a Fair. It was very satisfying to knock them away with a Pikmin attached to them.
Act out of Dash Attack Faster - Just slightly faster. Like a frame or 2. It just feels like I get a lot of missed opportunities with it.
Dair comes out a little faster - It doesnt need to be like Brawl's Dair but he needs a tool to defend from below.
Improve Pikmin AI - They get lost very often when Olimar is hit and sometimes they dont ever return.
Improve Up B Tether - There are a lot of angles where Olimar cannot tether and many times the tether just fails even when it appears to touch the ledge.
White Pikmin Quicker Explosion Timer - This would also be great for combo starters and continuing a combo. Air Pikmin Throw > Fair combo > Chase.

I think thats generally it. He will still have major issues with close combat against aggressive characters but he would have a lot more control over his actions and his options with these changes. It also gives him a few tools to get a little aggressive so he doesnt have to attempt to stay in the neutral game forever.

If you have thoughts about my changes I'd love to hear them and make changes. I'm willing to defend my position and provide any answers to questions or clarifications. Lets have a conversation! :)
 

NiPPs

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#10
^really like the idea of a held b for white/purple pikmin and a tap on the b button for the rest. would love to see that implemented. also love the idea of olimars thing glowing the color of the current next pikmin in line instead of having to dash dance/remember to see what i have next. would love to see mostly those already mentioned ideas in the game.
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

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#11
I thought a bit more about the changes that I would like to see for Olimar and I have an update.

Controlled Pikmin Pluck - Holding the B button when plucking a Pikmin would pluck either a White or Purple Pikmin. Tapping the B button when plucking a Pikmin would pluck a Red, Yellow, or Blue Pikmin. Olimar always brought the right tool for the job.
While this would be great, there is another option that could make him more consistant. The alternate option would be to have Olimar always use the same pikmin unless he does not have access to it anymore. If he no longer has access to it, Olimar would use the next Pikmin in line. The situations where he could continue using the same Pikmin are Fair, Dair, Bair, Uair, Up Smash, Down Smash, and Up B. The situations that would switch to the next Pikmin are Forward Smash, Side B, and Down B. I think this would allow the player more control and maintain consistency for allowing the player to get the right Pikmin for the job. This design might also be more difficult to implement.

Why do I believe the Random Pikmin Order is bad for Olimar? Because it lacks consistency. Many times I have hit a DK with a White Pikmin while he was over 200% and him not die. Random is bad in competitive Smash Bros (aside from GnW Hammer and Luigi's Green Missile) and Olimar should not have this restraint set on him. While every other character has consistent attacks, Olimar has a very strong element of luck. That is really bad for Olimar and prevents him from advancing into higher tiers.

I also recall from Brawl, Red Pikmin had the strongest aerial moves, and Yellow Pikmin had the largest and most lingering hitboxes. I think a good way to make them useful would be to exaggerate their abilities slightly, allowing the yellow pikmin to have extremely large disjonts and being able to hit people on the top platform of Battlefield with a Yellow Up-Smash.
I really like this one for the Yellow Pikmin. Larger disjointed hitboxes that linger and provide shield pressure would make up for them doing less damage and knockback than other Pikmin.
 
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#12
I think if you really wanna buff red he should probably have an effect that fits his description if it is supposed to be aggro then I think he should do massive shield damage
That way people will think twice before shielding against his attack
And it should do good shield damage if they are latched on the opponent too
But what I think should be added is that they should get more length in their grab range after they flower
To give that scary grab pressure like in brawl
Or they should give him a bonus for koing an opponent like able to pluck an additional pikmin
Because I really think him having at least one more pikmin would make all his pikmin survive faster I know they want to stray from brawl olimar's mindless chuck pikmin and spam smashes but I think more pikmin would help them last longer to bloom and able to combo and kill faster
 

OMalley

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#13
One small change n Olimar i'd like to see is to have him pull out his d air a touch earlier. the way it is now, timing is incredibly difficult, and usually too risky especially for its small hotbox. i think he'd maintain fair play if it came out maybe just a touch slower than diddykong's
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

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#14
I just had an idea when looking at the Solomar (Nolimar) thread. Basically, its that Olimar has only 5 moves that do damage without Pikmin, so i thought that he should have some hit boxes on all his attack animations even if he has no Pikmin in hand. I think it would be interesting if some of the hit boxes sent the opponent in the opposite direction that Olimar hit them in. It would be really low knockback and normal to low hitstun. Sorta hit like the Fan.

Part of the reason for this is because his Pikmin are really unreliable at times and no character should be left with virtually no moves (1 while in the air) at any point.

This could also allow Olimar to have more options when he has a single Pikmin in line.
 
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#15
I don't wanna sound crazy or anything but I think his down special should have a hitbox too
I think the little rainbow should have a hit box that does as much damage and knock back as a sour spot of a Zelda fair/bair
That way it could be a defensive and or optional offensive move
Now that he doesn't have super armor on it
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

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#16
I don't wanna sound crazy or anything but I think his down special should have a hitbox too
I think the little rainbow should have a hit box that does as much damage and knock back as a sour spot of a Zelda fair/bair
That way it could be a defensive and or optional offensive move
Now that he doesn't have super armor on it
I can see Olimar himself having a hit box on Whistle that is like the sour spot of Zeldas fair but I'm really resistent to his rainbow having a hitbox. Having Olimar have a slight hover effect as well as a small hitbox on himself could lead to some tricky combos.
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

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#18
Pls dont buff olimar he would be broken with anything else
How so? He is very unreliable and a lot of his kills are dependent on luck. Sure, he can rack up damage in combos but his recovery is incredibly easy to predict and he's incredibly gimpable. I'm curious to know what are his redeeming traits that warrent him to not receive a buff.
 

Oracle

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#19
Olimars recovery is actually really good. Hes really hard to edgeguard because his tether has a hitbox on it AND will grab past people on the ledge, meaning if they try to hog you and aren't invincible they basically always get stage spiked. Also he effectively has 2 midair jumps with the neutral b stall. In terms of on stage game, he has absolutely brutal aerials, projectiles that force opponents to approach or commit to something, and moves that combo into each other extremely well, like upair, usmash, and nair. Throw in that incredible pivot grab and you've got a very solid character. Once people start getting used to pikmin cycling like the brawl players and start getting rounds of 2 or 3 purples then it will be sick.

There are definitely many better characters than Olimar, but I see that the character has everything he needs to compete hidden behind a steep learning curve. I don't want to risk an accidentally super broken olimar just because nobody knows how to play him.
 

NightShadow6

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#20
Olimar is the truth. He has combos that just equalizes the whole cast.

Plus the pikmin will nullify every single projectile in the game.
 

DJ _ICE

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#21
MOVESET:
From ez in the general thread. I've noticed this as well, when a move collides with a Pikmin during a Pikmin-based move, your Pikmin get sent sky-high. They'll come down after a while, but it takes forever, even when you whistle them it takes a bit for them to come down. Olimar's Pikmin-based moves should receive a bit more priority, or Pikmin should be given some launch resistance (not so much that they won't even flinch, but enough to prevent them from being rocketed to the moon when they get hit).
I have an idea. What if the Pikmin received higher weights and much higher falling speeds so that this is less of a problem? Pros? Cons?
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

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#22
Olimars recovery is actually really good. Hes really hard to edgeguard because his tether has a hitbox on it AND will grab past people on the ledge, meaning if they try to hog you and aren't invincible they basically always get stage spiked. Also he effectively has 2 midair jumps with the neutral b stall. In terms of on stage game, he has absolutely brutal aerials, projectiles that force opponents to approach or commit to something, and moves that combo into each other extremely well, like upair, usmash, and nair. Throw in that incredible pivot grab and you've got a very solid character. Once people start getting used to pikmin cycling like the brawl players and start getting rounds of 2 or 3 purples then it will be sick.

There are definitely many better characters than Olimar, but I see that the character has everything he needs to compete hidden behind a steep learning curve. I don't want to risk an accidentally super broken olimar just because nobody knows how to play him.

Heres my thought process on why I think he should be buffed (mostly revolving around his recovery). His Tether recovery is great when it works. Since you have to whistle to get your Pikmin back and loose altitude doing so, I suggested the hover whistle. That would compensate for the altitude loss. It would also give him enough time to get his Pikmin in line for his Tether to reach. Olimar is also extreamly prone to opponents chasing him off the edge since he's virtually helpless while out there. (he must use 2 moves to recover properly (Whistle and Pluck) and each of them are not threatening. If you ever play against him, just knock him off and go out after him. if you tap him, you take a stock. Its odd to me that I don't see people doing that in tournaments because its really easy to gimp him. His hop from Up B is also very predictable and you can meet him with a dair. Finally his Pikmin often miss the ledge grab even though their flower is covering the ledge.

His recovery is entirely unreliable. Sure, if people let him come back it's not really an issue, but if you try quick recoveries or they come out after you, thats it.

I think he has a lot of potential but its frustrating to die because he has an inconsistent tether and opponents have free range to safely go out after him. He has a hard time competing in tournaments now, but when people learn how to better deal with him, he'll plummet in the tier list, Although I think is speculativly very low as it is.

I do agree to take it slow on his buffs. He's probably the most delicate character to balance, imo.
 

Oracle

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,471
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#23
whistle is obscenely fast you can always get your 4 pikmin back before tethering, especially because of how floaty olimar is. Also, his floatiness and quick fair/uair means that hes really difficult for most characters to challenge offstage because if olimar sees them coming they eat a meaty aerial, or he can immediately up b and smack them away. I almost never get edgeugarded unless i have terrible DI or my opponent quickly kills my pikmin, which is really difficult. Trust me, his recovery is good once you get used to it
 

OMalley

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 3, 2013
Messages
31
#24
Here's a thought, personally i could see Olimar getting a complete overhaul because his current build is fairly unanimously agreed upon as uninspired. what if his u tilt and u air were brought back to multi hit moves as well as a slight speedup in pulling some moves out, with the cost of kill power?
 

.fube

Smash Cadet
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Dec 16, 2013
Messages
31
Location
VA
#25
I have been playing Olimar nonstop since he was released and contrary to everyone else, I actually love him. I do feel like a few things on him could be tweaked but i don't think that he needs a major overhaul. A faster d-air like many have already said would be nice as well as maybe some other small tweaks to pikmin properties, but overall I think that his design should actually be less focused on micromanaging. I think that the pikmin should all have more consistent properties. Slight nerfs to purple, buffs to white health, slight buffs to blue, red, and yellow knockback, etc. a character based on sort to stance-style micromanagement just does not fair well in the extremely fast, action-filled environment of high level play. You dont have time to adjust around pikmin to prepare for combos and things. It is hard to squeeze in enough depth to make the management worth it. Everyone i know just plays him like a normal character and basically disregards the pikmin color. It is too insignificant and hard to adjust your order for situations and try to get the right lineup for each situation. There just isnt time for that sort of depth IMO.

If they can find a way to make it work, then I am all for it, but I just don't see it happening. I won't doubt the PMBR, but it just seems like too complicated of a design for a fundamentally "simple" game like smash. I do like the lower angle idea for red pikmin hits and the multi-hit shield pressure properties of yellow. That would be great and would only help him and make him more interesting. Small properties like that are things that you can involve if you have time but are not totally essential to his core game plan.
 
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GrizzleDrizz1ed

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 3, 2014
Messages
143
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#26
Do you guys ever just loose control of most/all of your pikmin? I got grabbed and thrown off edge and all my Pikmin got disconnected from me and whistle didnt bring them back. Another time, I threw a Pikmin and was left with 3 and when I did Up B, the were bashed into the ledge, and I fell to my death. I wasn't under or too close to the stage either. This is an example of what frustrates me the most about Olimar. Do you guys really not have Bogus things like this happen?
 

NightShadow6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
291
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WNY
#27
One thing they shouldn't change is the importance of pikmin management. Gotta have those specific roles that the colors fill.

And yea sometimes the pikmin are jank and will fall all over the place.
 

.fube

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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#28
I think pikmin management should be important, I just don't think that the amount of depth that some people are asking for is possible. It should be more of an advanced mechanic than a necessity. I have also had some of those weird problems with pikmin. It seems like if the pikmin themselves are hit in an attack they are often just rendered useless.
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

Smash Apprentice
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#29
Having 4 Pikmin greatly reduces the management that the player requires and I think it was a great decition on their part. I do wish I had more control on which of the 4 pikmin I used and when which Is why I would like the option to continue using the pikmin that is 1st in line. Honestly I really cant pin point the Lazy Pikmin Syndrome where they wont return. I cant repro it consistently (and I test games for a living) so I dont know what they plan on doing to resolve this. I dont ever mind loosing a stock because of my mistake, but I hate that its my character being buggy.
 

.fube

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
31
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VA
#30
Having 4 Pikmin greatly reduces the management that the player requires and I think it was a great decition on their part. I do wish I had more control on which of the 4 pikmin I used and when which Is why I would like the option to continue using the pikmin that is 1st in line.
I could definitely get into that. That would give way more control, plus tweeting mid combo would look badass. Throw with blue > tweet > f-air with purple. Shnazzy.
 
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
60
#31
I can see Olimar himself having a hit box on Whistle that is like the sour spot of Zeldas fair but I'm really resistent to his rainbow having a hitbox. Having Olimar have a slight hover effect as well as a small hitbox on himself could lead to some tricky combos.
I don't know I mean I feel everyone has something quick they can use to pressure
I mean he has jab and up smash oos but nothing really in the air
I mean maybe half the range of the rainbow but I think he should have a close quarters attack that doesn't require pikmin and that he doesn't have to be too close to the opponent
 
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
60
#32
I don't know I just feel more pikmin will help his pikmin survive more and make him a reverse brawl lucario because it's not like he can spam pikmin as much in pm as in brawl
I just don't understand the nerd to pikmin pluck though
Like why does olimar have to waste his invincibility becoming a playable character
I mean how is he supposed to revenge kill or use his invincibility to the fullest when he has to pull pikmin and have to start off either running away or getting comboed
Because all players will know that olimar will do after he gets off the platform
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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#33
So I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool if attacks done with white pikmin were faster? I mean, using them before stage 3(flowered) is like flinging a wet noodle around. I think it would be technical possible for Olimar to do this, granted their size. This is mainly aimed at them before the flowering, since at that stage, they actually do something.


Pros: Allows him to get follow ups easier and just be faster over all. As well as making his most usless stage 1(leaf) pikmin much better.

Cons: If this was kept once they flowered, I could see this being to strong. The player would have to learn and adapt to a new L cancel timing on their character. It would create some new found awareness because if you don't do the separate time for the white pikmin, you could hurt your performance.

I also think the poison should be harder to remove or maybe nerf the poison a lot and make it so you can't knock the flower off. I'd be fine if shield could stop the DMG, just right now, it's so easy to remove the poison. At the moment I just take it for granted, like yay extra points of DMG. I think it could be a bit more useful, considering I had to keep that pikmin alive for 30 seconds. It ain't ez and it has ridiculous low HP as well. It would be nice if it was a little bit more worth it. The poison I mean, the DMG is great but the poison, eh. Maybe I'm just disappointed when I hit them, and then 2 seconds later the flower is already gone.
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
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Messages
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#34
Well, I'm trying my best to get good with Olimar, haven't posted in the Olimar section here yet but it's good to see that people see the same problems as I do.

Basically, his tether needs to be fixed or changed. I always thought he could get a recovery by hopping off a Pikmin. This in turn would inevitably make you lose that Pikmin if you're off stage (no whistling for it back) but give you more options. Risk and reward type deal. And if you have, say, 3 pikmin, each time you press Up+B, you'd lose that Pikmin but get a reliable recovery.

Also, I agree with the Down+B giving some sort of hop while offstage. It's too much to whistle, neutral b and then Up B. Most times you end up falling too far downward and it needs to be optimized.

And for the love of God, please make these Pikmin stay near me and not screw up when I try to reorder them. The whistle doesn't serve it's purpose quite well. I end up playing a 2 pikmin game (usually a blue and purple or white and purple) just so I can be sure the next pikmin I have is purple.
 

NiPPs

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
52
Location
New York
#35
I've been playing olimar a lot more lately a d like oracle said, there's nothing wrong with olimars recovery and is easily one of the best in the game and is definitely the best tether recovery in the game. almost unpunishable and the best part is that fox really cant shine you unless he has the upmost, perfect timing. If he messes up slightly hes staged spiked/gimped into death. If you dont get flat out killed as olimar you better make it back to stage or something is wrong. the only times i experience trouble with his tether is when i have two pikmin and up b. sometimes it looks like it misses the ledge for no reason but 9.9/10 times its consistent. the only real change i want to see is the fix of pikmin randomly disappearing after they desync from getting hit by an attack until u whistle and they magically reappear from the abyss. just annoying to think that i have 3 pikmin and i get punished for doing a running pluck/regular pluck because nothing comes out.

An interesting idea someone previously mentioned i think is that after you attack with a pikmin, it won't go to the back of the line. it will remain with you until u whistle it away so you can truly control when you want to kill with a purple or red or grab with a white or blue. One problem this could lead to is just playing with 2 pikmin for a majority of the game or until they get killed and force you to pluck new ones. i do feel that olimar needs a faster dair though since the timing is so strict to L/ cancel a short hop dair. the speed its at right now though does allow for a mini ken combo at low percents ;)

edit: i do feel olimar should spawn with one pikmin though as i do get punished sometimes for plucking four pikmin right away. you could argue that picking three instead of four would be the fix but i want to spwn with pikmin >:)
 
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GrizzleDrizz1ed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
143
Location
Seattle Washington
#36
I've been playing olimar a lot more lately a d like oracle said, there's nothing wrong with olimars recovery and is easily one of the best in the game and is definitely the best tether recovery in the game. almost unpunishable and the best part is that fox really cant shine you unless he has the upmost, perfect timing. If he messes up slightly hes staged spiked/gimped into death. If you dont get flat out killed as olimar you better make it back to stage or something is wrong. the only times i experience trouble with his tether is when i have two pikmin and up b. sometimes it looks like it misses the ledge for no reason but 9.9/10 times its consistent. the only real change i want to see is the fix of pikmin randomly disappearing after they desync from getting hit by an attack until u whistle and they magically reappear from the abyss. just annoying to think that i have 3 pikmin and i get punished for doing a running pluck/regular pluck because nothing comes out.

An interesting idea someone previously mentioned i think is that after you attack with a pikmin, it won't go to the back of the line. it will remain with you until u whistle it away so you can truly control when you want to kill with a purple or red or grab with a white or blue. One problem this could lead to is just playing with 2 pikmin for a majority of the game or until they get killed and force you to pluck new ones. i do feel that olimar needs a faster dair though since the timing is so strict to L/ cancel a short hop dair. the speed its at right now though does allow for a mini ken combo at low percents ;)

edit: i do feel olimar should spawn with one pikmin though as i do get punished sometimes for plucking four pikmin right away. you could argue that picking three instead of four would be the fix but i want to spwn with pikmin >:)
Ivysaurs Tether Recovery is way better I think. She can almost always get back with down air and if she's tapped before using her second jump, she can often still return. Her Tether can be crazy long and it isn't as easily punished. Due to Olimar's Hop on his Up B, it makes it really easy to down air him. Virtually any Neutral attack off stage is a kill, the opponent just has to go out there. I can see why FF would have a harder time keeping him off stage but anyone who can recover from an ariel decently fast should be going out after him. Do you play against people who are really aggro and go off stage often after you?

Something I noticed about Olimar, is that when I play people who aren't great at the game, I will completly dominate them as Olimar. But if I play someone who is at my level or better, I get crushed as Olimar. Mostly due to not being able defend myself or escape getting combo'd in the air. Or his recovery failing due to lost pikmin, pikmin not latching, loss of altitude from whistle, or getting gimped from my predictable, defenseless (most of the time) recovery. Honestly, his recovery is half decent as long as your opponent lets you get back. Otherwise, good luck. If your having success with it now, awesome! But wait till people figure out how to gimp him. He wont be viable for winning anything.
 

NiPPs

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
52
Location
New York
#37
Ivysaurs Tether Recovery is way better I think. She can almost always get back with down air and if she's tapped before using her second jump, she can often still return. Her Tether can be crazy long and it isn't as easily punished. Due to Olimar's Hop on his Up B, it makes it really easy to down air him. Virtually any Neutral attack off stage is a kill, the opponent just has to go out there. I can see why FF would have a harder time keeping him off stage but anyone who can recover from an ariel decently fast should be going out after him. Do you play against people who are really aggro and go off stage often after you?

Something I noticed about Olimar, is that when I play people who aren't great at the game, I will completly dominate them as Olimar. But if I play someone who is at my level or better, I get crushed as Olimar. Mostly due to not being able defend myself or escape getting combo'd in the air. Or his recovery failing due to lost pikmin, pikmin not latching, loss of altitude from whistle, or getting gimped from my predictable, defenseless (most of the time) recovery. Honestly, his recovery is half decent as long as your opponent lets you get back. Otherwise, good luck. If your having success with it now, awesome! But wait till people figure out how to gimp him. He wont be viable for winning anything.
i guess im biased when i say olimars tether is the best in the game recovery wise because a simple fast fall fair with any characters fair that kills completely shutsdown ivys recovery when i play against ivy. olimars little bounce thing can be saved or used right away to prevent gimps as long as he has 3-4 pikmin still usually. i never really get gimped as him to be honest unless my opponent goes extremely deep which usually results in a suicide. the only problems i face when recovering is versing metaknight players. a simple nair and its almost always a stock on me when i recover as olimar. my usual training partner is rolex and he doesnt go deep for the kill unless hes playing mk. with snake he just simply traps and waits. i got 9th in my last tourny using olimar in singles(olimar sucks in doubles i feel haha) every time people tried to gimp me i'd either hit them with the tether or latch before they could hit me and pop in the air regaining stage control while they remain off stage. i 9/10 times recover extremely low saving my bounce till almost the end. i basically get knock backed. fall for like half a second whistle continue to fall, bounce, second jump is i still have it which in most cases i do then up-b. thats my usual go to recovery.

yeah when i play peoples "secondaries" or someone not too familiar with the game or mostly a melee player i destroy them with olimar. when in the air i usually ff a nair due to the high priority. you can also b reversal the whistle and use your bounce thing to throw them off. i completely agree though that once people play against olimar more, my days of amazing recovery may come to an end.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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#38
Wdf
Try out of your mind biased.

He has one of the most mediocre recoveries in the game. His up B isn't even in the top 50% for best recoveries. Mario, mk, Kirby, luigi, MEWTWO and others have recoveries so good, Olimar wished this was brawl.

To be honest, it doesn't much to go in, pressure this man, get him off stage and stick him with something with some sort of knockback. People don't encounter him much, so they don't know what do against Olimar, but we know, we know deep down, our recovery sucks. You can't hide from the truth, the truth hides from you.
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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#39
Btw
This video shows some problems.
The recovery lumping on the wall, the recovery touching the edge and not latching, ghost pikmin and that might be it. I haven't watched all of it yet.
You also see some edge guards on Olimar and some problems he has etc
He doesn't do to bad, but cala is a earth build kinda guy so who knows how badly this Olimar would actually have it if ness or Lucas came out to play.
http://youtu.be/lF7HewcYTXM
 

GrizzleDrizz1ed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
143
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Seattle Washington
#40
Btw
This video shows some problems.
The recovery lumping on the wall, the recovery touching the edge and not latching, ghost pikmin and that might be it. I haven't watched all of it yet.
You also see some edge guards on Olimar and some problems he has etc
He doesn't do to bad, but cala is a earth build kinda guy so who knows how badly this Olimar would actually have it if ness or Lucas came out to play.
http://youtu.be/lF7HewcYTXM
The 2 characters that I play against most often are DK and Roy. DK is able to edge guard like you wouldnt believe. With his new hight increase on his up b, he can come back from pretty far below. A quick nair and olimar is toast. DK is also incredible with pressure and he has an amazing jab to grab game. Roy out ranges and out prioritizes him in just about everything. A good dash dance game is required to begin getting the upper hand. The Roy I fight generally doesn't come out after me so I'm able to recover, privided I don't get screwed with my Pikmin.

I also noticed that in the video, Olimar was only able to get 2 flowered white Pikmin to connect, and that's out of 4 games. I feel like since the pace of the game has increased, it makes deaths much quicker and Olimar generally has about 1 min or less per stock. With a timer of 30 seconds to flower, it gives Olimar roughly 15-30 seconds of "Flower Power" and then he has to reset. That doesnt even include the deaths of his Pikmin through combat during stock. I really feel like his Pikmin flowering should be adjusted to the new speed of the game. My suggestion is to reduce the time it takes to flower to 20 seconds. I hope that the PMBR adds this in to test it ans see how it feels. Does anyone agree/disagree?
 
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