Ok, Samuses Metagame is Stale...

[Hive]

Admit it!
we all know its true, we haven't found a new AT or anything in ages lol. so what to do?
If samus has truly stopped learning new things then she is going to drop in the tier list really fast. why? her surprise factor is starting to run out and other characters are still exploiting bits of potential. Probably going to happen, however I figure i'd at least ask around for stuff ^^

I was thinking we could look into her more unimportant aspects of her game like:

Water tactics
Wall tactics (stuff for luigi's mansion)
Grab break and Dthrow options (since these seem to be her best grabs for followups)
Stage tricks
Stuff to do on pictochat and rainbow cruise
Infinite jump stuff (zair is most important)
Walkoff stage trix... (good for matchups where your screwed lol)

ok, we've probably exploited all of these already but there's got to be SOMETHING....

ACTUAL footage of Hyperstation (DAD) playing samus.

 

[Crystanium]

Before I decide closing this, I must ask one thing. Is this a joke?

 

[Hive]

no joke... well i mean the picture is.
i just thought we could try to figure out stuff with her less played aspects. :/

 

[Crystanium]

All right. You may continue.

 

[hyperstation]

My Samus is so gross...I've got a cape and just look at how long that ZAir is! It kinks and still connects with Link.

Seriously though...the bonds of the Ganon/Samus alliance run deep, and I'd love to see Samus advance her game as much as you guys. Which aerials can Samus use for Infinite Second Jump Recovery? I know I could look this up, but I figure you guys know this off hand. If ZAir is one of them, how come I don't see any Samuses just bouncing around ZAiring like flubber samus? I guess I've seen Xyro do it a couple times, but not really in sequence. Plus, he's green, so he's got some of that flubber going for him already. Xyro's on Performance enhancing drugs.

Also, just something I'd mention since I spend a lot of time playing against MOM. I wonder how much you guys effectively use aerials (specifically BAir) as bait and then Reverse Buffer a move out of it, trapping your opponent. This is something that Ganon uses all the time. For instance, I'll bait with a reverse DAir or space with a reverse UAir then reverse buffer a DTilt (great range/priority) or an instant Dash Attack (killing power). One thing I could see being pretty dirty for Samus would be BAirs for spacing and then reverse buffering a DTilt. BAir and DTilt are two of her more reliable kill moves when fresh. I'd really just like to see more BAir because Samus's is one of the coolest in the game IMO.

Anyway, this is clearly an attempt to apply Ganon approach logic to Samus, who doesn't use a similar logic. I don't know if it's a productive exercise, but you guys will.

 

[fromundaman]

I dunno DAD, but I'm going to attempt to apply it to my Kirby!
*disappears again*

 

[n00b]

You can't just say her metagame is stale and hope it improves. It will take time.

My Samus evolves by taking bits of other Samus's styles and flipping it to how it fits the way I think and the way I operate.

I would like to think I have a very stylistic Samus -- most of this development comes from experimentation and inspiration. Nothing is really ever forced.

With that said, I urge the Samus mains to stop hiding behind projectiles and zair and learn to be mobile and how to fight up close. I really stress this when I play Samus -- I really like to rush down. I'm not saying it's the most effective way to play Samus at this moment, but developing cqc strategies will help Samus adapt to the perpetually evolving metagame of EVERYONE ELSE...

I recommend people reconsider the following:
Dsmash
Falling uair
Shield dash
Pivot grab
Jab cancel

for obvious reasons.

 

[Crystanium]

You can't just say her metagame is stale and hope it improves. It will take time.

My Samus evolves by taking bits of other Samus's styles and flipping it to how it fits the way I think and the way I operate.

I would like to think I have a very stylistic Samus -- most of this development comes from experimentation and inspiration. Nothing is really ever forced.

With that said, I urge the Samus mains to stop hiding behind projectiles and zair and learn to be mobile and how to fight up close. I really stress this when I play Samus -- I really like to rush down. I'm not saying it's the most effective way to play Samus at this moment, but developing cqc strategies will help Samus adapt to the perpetually evolving metagame of EVERYONE ELSE...

I recommend people reconsider the following:
Dsmash
Falling uair
Shield dash
Pivot grab
Jab cancel

for obvious reasons.

n00b, from the last time we played, I would have to agree with you that you are very stylistic. You prefer flashiness more than anything else, and if Samus isn't flashy, it doesn't matter if she wins. On the other hand, it seems that flashiness is so much of a must that even if you were to lose, people would praise you for how you played. Samus board, let me tell you that when I last brawled with n00b, he moved with Samus as if she was the Samus of Melee. It must be the tag and the color scheme.

Anyway, n00b, everyone plays differently. Like I said to you last time, your Samus compared to mine is way different. You said that you like the "rush down," and I said that I was calm. I at least expressed that in our matches, though I'm not always a calm Samus. You know that I use the jab cancel. That thing is too good. I don't use any of the other stuff you listed, though a Diddy Kong main told me to use u-air more. But n00b, there are times and places to use these things, whether it's close-combat or projectile war.

 

[Hive]

lol i'm just the opposite n00b! ^^ i like to play long distance. yes i said it! i like to spam. playing long distance is more metroid-y for me. plus it works so well! That's not to say that i don't know how to play close range, quite the opposite, however, I use long range more than most people I think, and I like using the zair and missile patterns to create massive brickwalls ^^. its funny though when people try to keep the battle close range though with the expectation that since i play long range i can't play short range ^^

 

[n00b]

^ Playing keepaway is fine, but remember that Samus can't KO or spike from a zair's length away. If you can manage your way when you're up close you'd have better chances of KOing.. For example, something like falling uair -> jab cancel -> dtilt or fsmash = KO

iono, just think about it

 

[Hive]

fully charged charge shot lol ^^-> kos. but yea i DO appraoch to ko and to exploit openings, play the ledge, grab, platform, etc... I just do it less than others i suppose lol. ^^
have i ever mentioned dtilt is like my fave ko move?? ^^

 

[Rhyme]

The character I'm fighting against determins the range that I play at. Mid range for characters who can camp well (Snake, MK, ROB, etc.) and long range for characters who don't have much of a hope of camping (G&W, DK, Marth, etc.). Then of course there are characters where a switch up is required, such as Lucas and Olimar. There are very few matchups which I will play in the opponent's face at all times.

At least that's how it works for me. I find Samus' style to be rather addaptable, so I take the fight to the range that I know my opponent will have the greatest difficulty with.

I don't want to sound like a ****, but most of the stuff that you suggested just doesn't seem practical. Walk-offs would be worth looking into mainly for percents/characters that can be Zair chained two or three times in succession, because that could result in a death. Grab release stuff would also be worth looking into since we have our lovely Zair->grab near-guaranteed setup. Other than that, everything else is rather iffy in the sense that it's either difficult to apply mid-match or it's already been explored.

The only thing I have left to look into is how to incorporate dB into my game. I feel like it would make for some excellent setups and rush deterrents if used correctly, and being rushed is a huge problem in some of Samus' matchups.

 

[Hive]

the things i suggested are iffy, i'm not denying it. its just the only things we haven't really explored much yet...

not sure how you would play mk mid range though lol that seems like a nado setup to me ^^

 

[Albino Ace]

Whenever I occasionally play Samus, I'd love to play projectile war...but of course you have enemies deflecting and reflecting them all over the place.

Regarding her U-air, I actually find it kinda nice to combo with a Screw attack, for some damage racking. I mainly use D-smash, F-smash, and the two-neutral-A combo to knock them above a pit, and then D-air for the spike. I'd say it comes out relatively quick compared to other meteor smashes...and with floatiness + Up B or the tether on her side, its usually not too tough to make it back.

Just a thought, though. Not sure if you guys already considered something along those lines.

 

[n00b]

wait youre saying we should knock them off the stage then go for a spike???

 

[Albino Ace]

Well, if you knock them enough distance to go for one, but not far enough to get KO'd off the side blast line or something, then yes...I guess. It's worked decent enough for me. (I don't know anything about frame or hitbox data and things like that, but from what I've experienced her wide swing of the arm gives a decent radius...and I've hit enemies who were almost ON her, not just below her...the hitbox seems to be fairly large, although some other opinions/experiences from other Samus players would be nice, too.)

...does it seem like a stupid idea? Just thought I'd try to help a bit and throw my two cents in.

 

[Uffe]

What n00b said

You can go into a rush down, but don't leave yourself open, either. Samus mains really need to stop hiding behind a barrage of projectile and get in the fight. I'm not saying you shouldn't use your projectile and zair to your advantage to land some damage in, either. I'm saying that there are ways around Samus and when she's closed in, she's in danger if all you do is spam and camp from afar. Your Missiles, Homing Missiles and zair are good for something.

Your opponent can't block and spot dodge at the same time. They've got to sacrifice one for the other. If they shield your Homing Missile, grab them. If they spot dodge it, they're going to get hit somehow anyway, so use these to your advantage. Look at Toon Link for example. Yes, he's quicker than Samus in projectile and speed, but he uses his projectile as a means to get his enemy to do something predictable so he can punish them then and there.

As far as Samus' metagame goes, it's probably not going anywhere anytime soon. If your Samus is predictable, do something unpredictable. Easier said than done, yes, but not impossible. You're open to many options with your arsenal. You know how to use your character so use her in ways your opponent won't expect. You've got an imagination, apply that with your methods.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Admit it!
we all know its true, we haven't found a new AT or anything in ages lol.

Stopped reading here. Metagame progression =/= AT discovery.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Agree with Blostering Speed. AT's are nice but nobody should ever be specifically looking for them or relying on them to improve their character.

One of the best ways I found to step it up and learn how to play differently nwhen I was lacking with a character was to exclude the part of my game i overused/relied too heavily on for a month and literally not use it at all. By the time I got back to it I was much more solid in otehr aspects of the character. Did I lose a lot? Hell yeah. But I got better so I really couldn't care less. I've done this tons of times with Pit's arrows, Ganons Down Air, Bowsers side B, Sonic's Spindashes, Marth's Up B, Diddy's Bananas etc. Try it yourself. Play Samus with no Zair or no Projectiles for a while. It won't be pretty but I can almost guarantee you'll learn something from it and start using other options more afterwards.

 

[ADHD]

Samus is the most worthless piece of **** ever.

Her metagame won't stop though.

 

[Miles.]

Admit it!
we all know its true, we haven't found a new AT or anything in ages lol. so what to do?
If samus has truly stopped learning new things then she is going to drop in the tier list really fast. why? her surprise factor is starting to run out and other characters are still exploiting bits of potential. Probably going to happen, however I figure i'd at least ask around for stuff ^^

I was thinking we could look into her more unimportant aspects of her game like:

Water tactics
Wall tactics (stuff for luigi's mansion)
Grab break and Dthrow options (since these seem to be her best grabs for followups)
Stage tricks
Stuff to do on pictochat and rainbow cruise
Infinite jump stuff (zair is most important)
Walkoff stage trix... (good for matchups where your screwed lol)

ok, we've probably exploited all of these already but there's got to be SOMETHING....

ACTUAL footage of Hyperstation (DAD) playing samus.

How about how tricks with glide tossing and items?

I know the Pt boards figured out ATs and tricks with items for PT and it improved the Peach Diddy, Toon Link and Rob match ups. Plus its hella fun to hold an item and still have awesome b moves to use like Rocksmash flamethrower, bulletseed and razor leaf.

but samus' B moves are even more **** so i imagine she is pretty **** with a banana in hand.

also @ Kairi dayuuum girl we need to smash its been wwwaaaaaaaaaaay to long. I have like 16 matches of us i will be uploading and yeah i miss our epic battles.

 

[Hive]

Stopped reading here. Metagame progression =/= AT discovery.

I'm not even focusing on ats though i'm focusing on devolping aspects of her game that have not already been developed. most of the time this doesn't concern ats.


@xiahou dou- i know <.< i'm not saying to only use ats...
I have tried all the situations you've proposed a lot... I do know what i'm talking about
I'm not even proposing using more ats, what I said was that we should focus on areas of her gameplay that haven't been focused on greatly already, so that we can find small techniques and followups that we can use (situationally) in matches.

@irl- I know we haven't smashed in ages!! :D i start school monday again though and i have it like all week lol, but we should definitely try to play sometime! I don't see you at tourneys much lately what happened?

we were actually looking at some of her banana tricks recently- there is a vid on it in the database I think, and I'm pretty sure you can follow a trip up with a charge shot. she can do a lot of stuff holding a banana too, although I wouldn't recommend it ^^ (it makes you more vulnerable imo to the other banana). ANd if you fthrow into a nana I think that you can follow up a dash grab again. ^^ Diddy is a pretty hard match lol T.T

 

[DelxDoom]

space ftilts and windmills of fury

hope your opponent doesn't know how vulnerable some Samus moves are (especially nair, jabs)

That is how Samus wins.

Or if she gets spike kills.

 

[n00b]

Play Samus with no Zair or no Projectiles for a while. It won't be pretty but I can almost guarantee you'll learn something from it and start using other options more afterwards.

2 people strong for playing Samus without hiding behind her projectiles

 

[Conspiricy]

spikes don't exist in brawl.

 

[Uffe]

Samus is the most worthless piece of **** ever.

Her metagame won't stop though.

Really now? When you lose to a Samus main, be sure to remember you lost to a worthless piece of ****.

 

[n00b]

^ CP used to main Samus, now he plays Diddy.. so I doubt he'd lose to the piece of **** he used to be.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

2 people strong for playing Samus without hiding behind her projectiles

Eh?

spikes don't exist in brawl.

How about this one? Melee Terminology doesn't necessarily have to carry over to Brawl it's it's own game with it's own mechanics? Or as I like to call it don't nitpick for no other reason then to be a douche?

 

[DelxDoom]

spikes refer to all downward knockback moves?

 

[LanceStern]

I'm all for cqc with Samus, and the morph ball bombs are going to help us.

I don't know, I'm a Samus player who likes to make her look acrobatic! She's a bounty hunter, but she's killer too! So I have to make her short hop, backflip etc. a LOT. And use the plasma shot.

The zair -> dash grab works very well

 

[Hive]

can someone test for me how good these tactics would be in actual gameplay... i have this feeling that they will be not so good, however, i was just testing on training and it seemed to be decent followups ^^ and we've been trying to find something to do with her grabs forever now lol (besides fthrow into cs, banana or wall ^^)

two things to look at for grabs against characters with bad grab trajectories (i think i used wario?):
-(Grab release or dthrow- i can't remember which lol)->fully charged charge shot->dash grab (the cs stuns them enough to grab them if it hits). what's iffy is how likely the person will be able to escape out of the stun animation of the grab, which is hard to test on training with one controller lol ^^ i expect it will be able to be broken out of, what i'm unsure of is how likely it will be. However, i'm fairly sure the cs to grab is almost guaranteed ^^
-dthrow->dash usmash-> possibly screw attack (low percentages)
as well. I think the usmash is a good followup to the dthrow bc the dthrow trajectory puts them above and a little to the right of you. the dash usmash is perfect for this bc its hitbox is high and starts to the right. it also lingers to catch airdodges. the screwattack follows up the usmash occassionally bc the person will be close and above you. so yea, again probably escapable, but not likely escapable is what i'm going for. would anyone be willing to test for me?

edit: i hate morph bombs lol (except with recovery and DI, and occassionally to stop nado spams ^^) idk for me it makes her too vulnerable in matches ^^ and they also don't combo well. i (and i think xyro agrees?) definitely prefer other things in that situation. ^^

 

[n00b]

^ not gonna touch upon the grab release/charge shot regrab stuff.. dont think it will work very well

as for dthrow to dash usmash, this does work sometimes.. dthrow -> dash -> charge usmash -> bait airdodge -> release usmash

i think 0rly proposed this first.

really tho, i don't think this thread will get much out of us because
talking about advancing the metagame =/= advancing the metagame

 

[LanceStern]

The upsmash is a risky move to use... too easy to di out of, and then they punish.
The down throw to a bair is really cool though. I find it works really well.

Also I mention again: nonextended zair -> dash grab -> anything is really good.

 

[n00b]

^ yes, that's the xyro combo, and is nothing new (no offense if it sounds like im latepassing you)

we can't sit here listing tactics that we find work well (er, rather, we already know of that work well).. we should be proposing things that we're not sure if they work well or show potential promise for the future of samus

once we propose such things, we need to test them out and return with results

what works, we'll add, we'll replace something in our current styles in favor of this new element, and little by little, that's how samus's metagame will evolve... it just takes time.

gl samus mainz

 

[Throwback]

****....why didn't any of the samus mains think of that?

 

[Hive]

wait, n00b 0.0 why does it say you main snake??
snake=/=samus last time i checked and I'd hate to have to assassinate you due to a slight misunderstanding ^^

i already took out sago you know why do you think he doesn't post here anymore lol ^^

 

[Uffe]

^ CP used to main Samus, now he plays Diddy.. so I doubt he'd lose to the piece of **** he used to be.

Just because you used to main a character doesn't exactly mean you know how to deal with them. Nobody exactly plays the same.

 

[Miles.]

Diddy is a pretty hard match lol T.T

i just know that when us PTs learned how to use nanners against diddy (especially with squirtle who IS better with nanners than diddy) it changed teh match up a lot.

 

[n00b]

^ Samus mains are divided on the issue of how to use nanerz vs diddy

some of us insist on fighting WITH them in our hands using b moves, z-air, dash attacks, glide toss -> charge shot stuff, etc..
the rest of us insist that we should throw the banana away and force diddy to have to pull another one out.

 

[Cherry64]

You can't just say her metagame is stale and hope it improves. It will take time.

My Samus evolves by taking bits of other Samus's styles and flipping it to how it fits the way I think and the way I operate.

I would like to think I have a very stylistic Samus -- most of this development comes from experimentation and inspiration. Nothing is really ever forced.

With that said, I urge the Samus mains to stop hiding behind projectiles and zair and learn to be mobile and how to fight up close. I really stress this when I play Samus -- I really like to rush down. I'm not saying it's the most effective way to play Samus at this moment, but developing cqc strategies will help Samus adapt to the perpetually evolving metagame of EVERYONE ELSE...

I recommend people reconsider the following:
Dsmash
Falling uair
Shield dash
Pivot grab
Jab cancel

for obvious reasons.

n00b, from the last time we played, I would have to agree with you that you are very stylistic. You prefer flashiness more than anything else, and if Samus isn't flashy, it doesn't matter if she wins. On the other hand, it seems that flashiness is so much of a must that even if you were to lose, people would praise you for how you played. Samus board, let me tell you that when I last brawled with n00b, he moved with Samus as if she was the Samus of Melee. It must be the tag and the color scheme.

Anyway, n00b, everyone plays differently. Like I said to you last time, your Samus compared to mine is way different. You said that you like the "rush down," and I said that I was calm. I at least expressed that in our matches, though I'm not always a calm Samus. You know that I use the jab cancel. That thing is too good. I don't use any of the other stuff you listed, though a Diddy Kong main told me to use u-air more. But n00b, there are times and places to use these things, whether it's close-combat or projectile war.

I agree with both of you probably the most. I think we should all play each other ( I am going to be very little help here) online to see battle styles. if we have numerous battles types our chances of victory rise as we could switch it up at any time and do good with different styles.
P.S. glad Dryn didn't lock this thread. Sorry for not posting sooner, I's been busy
About the diddy thing, I hold a naner and spam missiles to look for an opening and glide toss to charge shot, hoping for a spike to gain an early lead.
never works, but it looks good on paper.

EDIT: I knwo it got locked and I'm glad it did, my thread about the grab chain though is an okay combo because nobody expects it. I might be able to post a vid of me destroying a level 7 DK offline, not that it proves anything but I find it's a fun little trick to make my samus look more flashy. respond on this thread if you want the vid up. The way to escape it though is use your second jump it's overly stupid that people don't think about it before they land. anywayss respond about the vid.