Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dark.Pch]

Look, I understand that there aren't Peach players that are at the same level as ESAM. What I care about is that, you can't keep saying Peach can do this that and the other thing to deal with all these problems people thinks she has, when nobody can actually do those things to deal with the problem. I don't know enough about Peach to accurately theorycraft all these "solutions" to the problems I think she has. However, I don't really want to read large posts about these "solutions" because nobody's going to do them anyways. If Peach players can apply all the stuff you say she can do, and I commend you for thinking about the character as much as you do and trying to apply these things yourself, I'll want to listen. But as the situation currently is, it's all talk that has NEVER been backed up. And talk is cheap.

And whose fault is that that people won't do them? Seriously think that is a character problem? Thats what people always wanna run too. People don't do things or think the way they are suppose to to make matches easier and/or pull off a win, them complain and cry about how the character is crap and blah blah blah. It's freaking stupid. The fault is the player. Solutions are there, people don't do them, then act like nothing can be done all cause people don't wanna use what they have too, don't listen and lazy. Oh yea, people really are using her to the fullest and failed. So blame the character for your poor effort.

And if you think I am here just making stuff up at the top of my head, then you are sadly mistaken. All that I say is stuff I have done and works. I spend alot of time when free thinking about my wins/loses and what I can do about them. On top of watching alot of vids and see why Peach players get hit with or what they struggle with. Then think of ways it can be dealt with. When I play people I try it out. If it fails I try some more. if I keep failing, It's no good, and won't bother with it. If it works, I keep it. If it works half the time I keep trying and I see my success/failure rate and see what is higher to decided wether this is legit or not.

I'm not gonna sit here and talk about how Peach handles rob cause I'm not comfortable with this match up. I don't fully understand it and my options. If someone tells me false info reguarding how this match up is done, I won't reply. I'm not gonna speak of things i'm not use too or sure of. I not do the same for other characters as well. If I say something it's cause I have tried it and works. Wether in match up or character dependent. I don't make stuff up and post it to make my character seem good. You can take that judegement to the smash goverment.

But Marth players occasionally show that they are capable of what their tier list position indicates.

Like getting 5th and 7th at Apex

The tier list is mostly based of tournaments results. So what you just said for marth applies to everyone else on the list. That statement does not mean anything at all.

 

[Ghostbone]

But Marth players occasionally show that they are capable of what their tier list position indicates.

Like getting 5th and 7th at Apex

ZSS got first at Apex, Snake still outplaces Marth, yet they're now both below Marth on the tier list.

Marth players consistently show Marth should be like at least 3 spots lower than he is now. (and 3 spots in top/high tier is a much bigger deal than any movement Peach would make on the tier list)

/I probably overrate Peach a bunch so I'm just going to stick to bagging Marth because he sucks

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Hey, I agree that Marth sucks and is overrated and loses to Jigglypuff (what? Nobody actually said that? Well I agree with it anyway).

But Marth actually has some results, from more people than ZSS and Snake recently, so it makes sense that people will overrate him and put him higher on the tier list.

Also the new Mr. R combo video is the best Brawl video ever and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also the new Mr. R combo video is the best Brawl video ever and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

It just a Marth spike montage
/not that great tbh

 

[Dark.Pch]

It's just as exciting as meta knight combo video.

 

[Dekillsage]

Time to get it shakin with this guy.

 

[Seagull Joe]

is almost as bad as .

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

is almost as bad as .

Now Seagull, that's a bit harsh.

I don't think Marth is a bottom 5 character like Fox.

It just a Marth spike montage

/not that great tbh

THEM'S FIGHTING WORDS

PREPARE FOR FISTICUFFS!!!

 

[Aidebit]

Also the new Mr. R combo video is the best Brawl video ever and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

BlueFalcon30.

 

[pidgezero_one]

is almost as bad as .

Go away this isn't melee

john madden, etc

 

[1PokeMastr]

ZSS got first at Apex, Snake still outplaces Marth, yet they're now both below Marth on the tier list.

Marth players consistently show Marth should be like at least 3 spots lower than he is now. (and 3 spots in top/high tier is a much bigger deal than any movement Peach would make on the tier list)

/I probably overrate Peach a bunch so I'm just going to stick to bagging Marth because he sucks

Apex isn't going to change a damn thing about Zss, she placed high once, that's it.

Mr. R has beat and outplaced Salem in the last few tourneys that they've been at.
Surprisingly with Marth.

 

[Tesh]

ZSS placed high quite a few times actually.

 

[Osennecho]

Apex isn't going to change a damn thing about Zss, she placed high once, that's it.
Mr. R has beat and outplaced Salem in the last few tourneys that they've been at.
Surprisingly with Marth.

Marf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GO3y4wdE6A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naQnfNZ253k
Others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLa-rixad-I (Granted 9B beats him later in GFs though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiKQg_5Zz9c
etc....

What's your point? ZSS has been doing some damage in Japan and Europe since Apex. And she still does in America too. Not Apex level here but plenty of damage and SKTAR was the only thing Apex level anyways. Marf on the other hand. Continues to disappoint everywhere, even in Europe. And do I detect a ZSS at 1st place?... I must be blind.
http://smashboards.com/threads/euro...lts-shoutouts-67-people.339679/#post-15783632
Anyways, my point is that it was not a one and done occurrence. Salem did quite well a few times places too.

 

[Tesh]

rofl Leon outplaced by ZSS and 2 people ive never heard of.

Europe has more talent than I thought apparently.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pretty sure the main reason behind Marth being so high in the list is his Matchup Spread against other Top Tiers (according to the MU Chart anyway).
MK -1, ICs 0, Olimar 0, Diddy 0, Snake 0, Falco 0, Pikachu +1, ZSS 0, Wario +2, Lucario +1, DDD -1, Toon Link +1 and pretty much everything else is positive.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is the same viability as 5th to 7th. People still ******** about those single numbers.
It's like... if Japan won Apex again, like they very well could have, I'd be all like, "Marth is significantly better than your crappy zero suit samus and snake and pikachu in the widely considered [by top players] strongest or second strongest region in the world (after or before NY/NJ)".

But hey, Marth sucks. Worse than Jigglypuff.
#freelikesifanyoneelsesaidthepreviousline

 

[Ghostbone]

It's like... if Japan won Apex again, like they very well could have, I'd be all like, "Marth is significantly better than your crappy zero suit samus and snake and pikachu in the widely considered [by top players] strongest or second strongest region in the world (after or before NY/NJ)".

You mean Japan?
I'm pretty sure Snake and ZSS are also more relevant than Marth in Japan. (idk about Pikachu, Marth, Pikachu and Wario are all about the same viability imo)
Marth only dominates in Europe, he underperforms everywhere else.

Kyokoro, many of those are inflated in Marth's favour
Like he loses to ICs, loses to Diddy, results consistently say he loses to Pika as well iirc, Wario's not +2.

 

[Shaya]

He does pretty well in Japan.

He does as well as most high tiers do in regions where a high level player mains him.

He may lose to ICs. Diddy was mutual (I'm pretty sure I and a few other marths were still in the diddy favour ball park, but eh... results are actually looking good for us at this point on this one). Results show most Marths lose to ESAM and wins a lot of everywhere else. Who cares about Wario.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

quiksilver!!!

 

[Ghostbone]

He does as well as most high tiers do in regions where a high level player mains him.

Yet he's still rated as a top tier
>.>
(and that's my issue with Marth, he's like 3-4 spots overrated)

 

[Shaya]

There's two top tiers in this game.

Is he much better than Falco or Snake? No.
Are any of those 3 much better than ZSS, Wario and Pikachu? Not really. Although I still believe he is better than those 3.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK -1, ICs 0, Olimar 0, Diddy 0, Snake 0, Falco 0, Pikachu +1, ZSS 0, Wario +2, Lucario +1, DDD -1, Toon Link +1 and pretty much everything else is positive.

ICs at even, Pikachu at +1 and Wario at +2 are so contradictory to results that you could legimitately call these numbers counterfactual at this point.

The difference between Pikachu, Wario, Marth and ZSS is not very big. All 4 get borderline countered by MK, lose to ICs solidly and do about the same vs [Snake + Diddy + Falco + Olimar] / 4. The theoretical difference between these character in terms of viability is how they do against the lower tiered characters but even then it's a close call. They are for all intents and purposes equally good characters aka borderline viable.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Not really. Although I still believe he is better than those 3.

LOL

 

[Luigi player]

Kyokoro, many of those are inflated in Marth's favour
Like he loses to ICs, loses to Diddy, results consistently say he loses to Pika as well iirc, Wario's not +2.

He doesn't lose to Diddy, but the +1 on Pika and the +2 on Wario are mostly just theory on Pika, and some Warios whining about the MU. I wouldn't say he "consistently" loses to Pika though. Dunno where you got that from.

If you want to look at Leon and Mr R at the last Apex vs Esam, Leon was 1-1 vs Esams Pika I think then lost to his ICs game 3. Mr R won vs Esam. They probably didn't know the MU much before, at least I don't think they did (it didn't seem they do, because no SDI and gimps from thunderbolt? ***** please). But they got better. It's probably an about even MU.

 

[Cassio]

I don't agree on the MU assessments but I do think Pika/marth/zss/maybe wario are about the same in terms of tier placement. I do think marth is slightly overrated but I think the smfp/tesh/wifi monsters/etc. snark crew go way overboard on how much.

 

[Tesh]

he clearly doesnt exhibit the level of consistency the other top tiers have. he belongs in high tier with the rest of the nearly viable cast.

 

[Luigi player]

he clearly doesnt exhibit the level of consistency the other top tiers have. he belongs in high tier with the rest of the nearly viable cast.

Why do you think that? Are his results too bad for you? Or is it just your opinion that his overall design isn't that great?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Are his results too bad for you?

For a 'Top Tier', very much so, yes.

 

[BSP]

I don't agree on the MU assessments but I do think Pika/marth/zss/maybe wario are about the same in terms of tier placement. I do think marth is slightly overrated but I think the smfp/tesh/wifi monsters/etc. snark crew go way overboard on how much.

Do you think he's better than Snake and Falco? I don't think he should've passed them. On paper he may be slightly better (big maybe), but I wouldn't have put him up there just yet.

 

[Luigi player]

For a 'Top Tier', very much so, yes.

Mr R and Mikeneko too bad 4 u? While Leon and Mikehaze aren't too far behind either.

So you're just ignoring them because they're going to the most stacked tournaments ever and still do extremely well... but not well enough for your taste... while ignoring all the great MKs and other top tier players they outplace and their placement around the best players in the world.

I see.

 

[Ghostbone]

Nobody's ignoring Marth players
In fact we're paying attention to how Marth's results don't match those of the characters he's placed next to.

 

[Luigi player]

Nobody's ignoring Marth players
In fact we're paying attention to how Marth's results don't match those of the characters he's placed next to.

Then you're looking at the wrong results or you're blind. Or stubborn / ignoring the good results which is my guess.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mr R and Mikeneko too bad 4 u? While Leon and Mikehaze aren't too far behind either.

So you're just ignoring them because they're going to the most stacked tournaments ever and still do extremely well... but not well enough for your taste... while ignoring all the great MKs and other top tier players they outplace and their placement around the best players in the world.

I see.

Oh Marth lol, I thought we were still on Pika, my bad~

Marth is prob around the bottom of Top Tier with Falco/Snake somewhere imo.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Then you're looking at the wrong results or you're blind. Or stubborn / ignoring the good results which is my guess.

I don't think so. The tier list is mostly based on results. The results of marth do not add up to where he is on this list. This is what people are getting at.

 

[Player-1]

let's talk about how diddy is low tier

 

[Sinister Slush]

And Slush -_- your posts would have more merit if you wouldnt constantly follow me around to make such trollish statements. You dont have anything relevant to add to this discussion including your last post, so please save the ill-informed snark.

Oh didn't notice since wall of text.
I don't follow you around, you just tend to throw yourself in this thread whenever I tend to randomly look in here. Also not ill informed when it's true. It's a matter of how many people would like to break their skulls on a brick wall over arguing about matchup discussions with you or ESAM.

 

[Cassio]

Do you think he's better than Snake and Falco? I don't think he should've passed them. On paper he may be slightly better (big maybe), but I wouldn't have put him up there just yet.

No. I do think hes clearly below snake and falco. But the way some speak of him here he is clearly below pika/zss/wario/jigglypuff which is unreasonable (as in, the reasoning thus far has been really poor) imo.

Oh didn't notice since wall of text.
I don't follow you around, you just tend to throw yourself in this thread whenever I tend to randomly look in here. Also not ill informed when it's true. It's a matter of how many people would like to break their skulls on a brick wall over arguing about matchup discussions with you or ESAM.

Statement still stands, the only time Ive ever had an issue is when the persons trying to argue have little to add to the discussion except those sorts of statements and regurgitated and mindless catchphrases, which really only happens in this thread. Typically a small group of thoughtless contrarians who tend to post an abnormally large amount here. If thats what you like feel free to associate yourself with them.

 

[Osennecho]

^^^Has anybody besides M2K really said Marth is below Wario? Personally I do however think he is below Pika and ZSS, but that's just my opinion. Plenty of others share this belief for roughly the same reasons. Although I'd put those 3 in their own tier because of how close they are to each other in terms of viability imo. I'd be fine with him above them in the tier list even (more Pika then ZSS though). And I thought we went over this already. Jigglypuff is SSSSSSS tier.

 

[Luigi player]

I don't think so. The tier list is mostly based on results. The results of marth do not add up to where he is on this list. This is what people are getting at.

Yes they are, which is what I said in all of my posts.

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS got first at Apex, Snake still outplaces Marth, yet they're now both below Marth on the tier list.

I like how you used Apex as an example for ZSS but not for Marth when at Apex, the 3 of the 4 top solo Marths outplaced all the solo Snakes, while the 4th one tied with 3 of the solo Snakes and outplaced the rest.