Official SWF Tier List v8

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

And this is exactly why people stopped arguing with ESAM and Tagxy when it came to Matchup discussions. Like trying to break a brick wall with your head.

More like trying to cut a diamond with a feather.

 

[Delta-cod]

It's k though, guys, it's just that none of the Pikas are good enough to actually show you why the MU is even.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

It's k though, guys, it's just that none of the Pikas are good enough to actually show you why the MU is even.

Yeah

The same logic applies to every low tier, they should all be mid tier but nobody is good enough with them to show you why they're high tier, according to every low level or casual player of every Low tier character since the first Smash game.

 

[Tesh]

Pikachu doesn't seem to be on the level of the characters around him against MK. It seems like if the pikachu knows the matchup and the MK doesn't, the MK might still win anyway (like marth or wario).

In practice, he just doesnt seem to be up there with the top 6 or 7 matchups top MKs would need to study at to win consistently.

 

[Dez]

Is there like a Project: M tier list? The reason I asked that is because vBrawl is dead.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Is there like a Project: M tier list? The reason I asked that is because vBrawl is dead.

VBrawl isn't dead (yet), and if you want to talk about PM go to the PM boards.

 

[Tesh]

project M isnt finished so i cant imagine there would be. plus all those hack projects aim to balance the game, so anyone proven to be bad or too good would be respectively buffed or nerfed on a whim...

 

[ぱみゅ]

It depends on the region really, but yeah, outside of some places vBrawl isn't even played anymore.

This is definitely not the place to talk about that, though.

 

[thrillagorilla]

That is true but I have watched that replay without hacks on and the exactly same thing happens if you are willing to believe me. Also, ZSS having a pretty consistent way of going through also backs it up that it's indeed possible to go through accidentally or not.

Funny, you mentioned going through Frigate and I happen to have just the right video showing the thing

Do you know how it happens then? The Smashville thing I mean. I don't care about Frigate, its happened to me enough to where I don't care anymore (it may have cost me two tournament sets, but it has happened to me far more than that). Thank you for the video too. Its nice to know that I'm not the only person this has happened to.

 

[Ghostbone]

In practice, he just doesnt seem to be up there with the top 6 or 7 matchups top MKs would need to study at to win consistently.

That's more because there's only 1 Pikachu player that's relevant. (even ZSS has two relevant players, lol)

Like who does better against MK? ICs, Diddy, Snake, Falco?, Olimar?
The last 3 would all be arguable.

 

[1PokeMastr]

That's more because there's only 1 Pikachu player that's relevant. (even ZSS has two relevant players, lol)

Like who does better against MK? ICs, Diddy, Snake, Falco?, Olimar?
The last 3 would all be arguable.

2 relevant players ?

At Sktar 2.

NR placed higher than Salem/ V115.

Salem and V115 tied for 33rd.

Salem lost against Will with Zss.

Then Shaky with Snake.

There are not just two.

 

[Tesh]

All of the characters above Pikachu + maybe ZSS.

Also I still see Salem as the only top ZSS in Metaknight's metagame. Salem has a more impressive record against Metaknight than ESAM.

All of the characters above pikachu has long standing records of viability vs MK to some extent over a range of top level players on both sides of the matchup (well excluding Marth maybe)


Edit: Its reaaaaaaaally reaching to call other ZSS top level because they placed on par with Salem at maybe his worst placing ever. Salem's record in the past year (or just watching him vs top MKs) puts him way over v115 and nick riddle right now. You forgot to mention the only ZSS that actually beat someone good (DRN).

 

[Ghostbone]

Salem losing to non-MKs means V115 is just as relevant vs MK?
I'm not seeing the logic.

 

[Delta-cod]

Do you know how it happens then? The Smashville thing I mean. I don't care about Frigate, its happened to me enough to where I don't care anymore (it may have cost me two tournament sets, but it has happened to me far more than that). Thank you for the video too. Its nice to know that I'm not the only person this has happened to.

That looks like buggy clipping through the "joint" where the moving platform meets the solid stage. Based on what I saw, anyways.

 

[Shaya]

> insert insinuation at marth being bad (worse than ganon)
> receive likes

Every good character has some degree of bull **** to them. Others have it easier to pull off than others. Basically Meta Knight and Ice Climbers are the king of bull ****. When it comes to a lot of good characters against MK, they honestly have somewhat evenish match ups at top level, but their bull **** is significantly less consistent than Meta Knights (let's define BS as **** that happens but shouldn't happen [often]). Like, ESAM gets a thunder kill at some bull **** percent against GOOD MKS at least once per set. If ESAM avoided all of every MK's bull **** (y'know, #winning) or was at least +1 on his bull **** compared to the opposing MKs than its a... pikachu winning the game MU. ESAM getting two thunders per set is him winning that set. Think about it.

I'm so glad my character has bull **** on MK. If my grab release to dair 40% kill bull **** happens at least once more than MK's own crap on me (such as an awesomely timed ledge grab / invincibility option) then MARTH WINS THE MATCH UP (crazy).
The real problem is how versatile MK is at avoiding other character's bull ****.

 

[Ghostbone]

I really think there's more to matchups than pulling off bull****.

Edit: And now Cassio's pointing out that Meta Knight's dair doesn't hit above him.
Good thing MK has other aerials and tornado to cover that.

 

[Cassio]

Of course Ghost, which is why i said dair camping. Details matter.

Of course, I don't state these things because they should be obvious, and I think you're probably smart enough to see them without demanding people to spell them out. But as long as you can cite "massive unstated assumptions" without examples, you look smart without having to do any work. And the person you're arguing with has to waste time spelling it out or just give up out of boredom.

Anytime you make an argument with numbers, in order to be intellectually honest you HAVE to state the assumptions. Its not my argument. If theres too many to list or go over or causes you to give up out of boredom, the argument probably isnt very strong. In any case, I wasnt accusing you of intentionally hiding anything, I felt you weren't aware of them and figured if you cared to know youd ask. However, you did tip-toe around it here:

None of them actually have more experience playing Pikachu than ESAM does against MK. Some of them actually have less experience. When have Zero, Anti, and Nairo played good Pikachus outside of ESAM? He could have drawn on his apparently severely limited! pool of matchup knowledge, but at least he has something.

This is pretty critical. If were discussing players that arent playing the MU in an optimal way, then the results youre using are basically for sub-optimal play. That's the elephant in the room for basically any result-based MU ratio. People like to pull together what data they can and say 'good enough', but thats not how it works. Not to mention roughly 20ish sets? isnt really worthwhile.

If you've got answers to these problems, by all means I'd love to hear them. Asking ME to explain why the matchup isn't actually that bad when I think it's 6:4 Metaknight is kind of silly. Unless there's only one possible way for someone with True Matchup Knowledge™ to answer these questions, and I'm somehow disqualifying myself by letting you do the talking. I will say that the first question is a bit...leading, though. Dair camping a character that threatens vertical space well is probably a bad idea (uair is fast and sets up for silly stuff). The MKs who I've seen do well normally try to wall Pika horizontally with fairs and tilts.

My point with the questions is that if arent familiar with MU specifics, how are you so confident in you assessment of the MU?

Regarding the question you answered, take a look at this:

Typically pikachu will try to combat it with uair, and on occasion it is a solid option. But dair does a good job of covering where pika will need to be to hit with uair. Notice the vulnerable spots directly horizintal to MK though, nice for a good fair and leaving pika in a much safer position outside dair. Characters like olimar and falco also provide a good example of this.

Unfortunately, I have no footage from these practice sessions - could I watch any of them in a stream archive somewhere? If not, I'd agree with the "no supporting evidence" bit, because in that case there's no objectively-accessible method of assessing the content of those sets. If people are reluctant to engage you, it's probably because they basically have to take your word for how these things go. At least with ESAM we actually have common footage that carefully documents how to lose to MK. Embarrass

Honestly I have absolutely no issues having these discussions with top level players or players in my region, just many of the players who come to this thread. You also dont have to take my word alone on my credibility. Im a representative for my character and most players in socal would vouch for my character knowledge. If you want to be cynical about such things thats your call, but Im extremely patient and responsive to arguments others give when they actually do present them.

It's k though, guys, it's just that none of the Pikas are good enough to actually show you why the MU is even.

Assuming sarcasm, you couldnt logically believe your own statement or else you would also agree the metagame has little evolution after its release.

And Slush -_- your posts would have more merit if you wouldnt constantly follow me around to make such trollish statements. You dont have anything relevant to add to this discussion including your last post, so please save the ill-informed snark.

 

[Loota]

Do you know how it happens then? The Smashville thing I mean.

Tbh I have no idea, I tried to replicate it but that's the only time it has ever happened to me. I can't find the video about ZSS clipping through but her down b somehow makes her go through pretty consistently if used at the right point. I remember SFP or NR showing it off in a video but I don't know if it still exists.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I love all ZSS players because they're super cool dudes, so I don't want to ruffle their feathers, but no one is as good as Salem atm.

Nick Riddle is the closest, but V115 might be better soon if NR doesn't watch it. V115 is the one of the fastest-improving mid-level players I think I've ever seen.

ZSS has a high rate of turnover, all of our good players place badly once and quit or just get bored.

Pikachu is not good against MK. ZSS shouldn't be either, but 50% punishes make up for a lot and everyone makes mistakes. ZSS will always be viable as long as there are laggy moves that people want to use and as long as you can't shield during initial dash.

 

[Ghostbone]

Of course Ghost, which is why i said dair camping. Details matter.

Well yes, if MK decides to only ever use dair, Pikachu can easily cover that.
But again, looking at moves in a vacuum like that is silly, MK has other options and it's not like Pikachu magically beats all of them, especially when he can't really challenge nado at all in the air.

I'm not saying dair camping is a good strategy vs Pikachu, but to pretend that it's because Pikachu can come from above/the side and fair is silly, anyone can do that.

 

[infiniteV115]

> Improving quickly
> Still considered a mid-level player after 2 years

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

> Improving quickly
> Still considered a mid-level player after 2 years

I use that definition for anyone who can randomly beat top-level players but can't always. I don't mean any offense, I obviously think you're really good.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Cassio, I don't believe Pika Vs Meta is even. I believe this image is based of ONE player with the character and the hype behind it. I don't believe the hype. Pikachu may have answers to MK's crap, but you need to realize the difficulty of dealing with it. Which I feel people don't think about. (like people saying Peach loses to IC and DDD, yea ok....). There are alot of people in the smash goverment who as so called representative of their characters. Yet when it comes to explaining things about their character, I get half-ass answers or simple weak ones that a player who just been playing brawl for 2 weeks could give me. So I wanna see if you actually know what you are talking about or just off hype like the rest of your crew.

So I 2 questions to ask you.

- Does Pikas Fair and Bair beat MK's Fair when his hitbox of the Fair is out?
- How does Pika get inside an MK that is playing safe?

 

[infiniteV115]

I use that definition for anyone who can randomly beat top-level players but can't always. I don't mean any offense, I obviously think you're really good.

I thought that's what a high-level player was

Also I think I've only beaten one player that can be considered top level

 

[Delta-cod]

Assuming sarcasm, you couldnt logically believe your own statement or else you would also agree the metagame has little evolution after its release.

How so? I see plenty of characters putting their money where their mouth is, but I always hear "Pika goes even with MK" then see a losing record in recent history. I'm critical of Peach in the same way.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

IZeRo (twice), ADHD, Bloodcross and MVD after Apex doesn't count as much then.

Just as a heads up, my record vs Salem is 3-2 in my favor. I beat him the first 2 times we played (After Apex 2012) in WF's and GF's of a local tourney, then he beat me twice at winterbrawl then I beat him in LF's at Rescue 2.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

And yeah MK having trascendent aerials can be a problem. Can't throw out a Fair and interrupt a Pikmin or an armor piece like Marth can. It can be a problem against projectile characters. Zero himself said that Tornado is the only thing MK has that beats Olimar.

Yeah and glide too. Everything else isn't that good (Except F-Air/Bair off the stage).

 

[Osennecho]

I love all ZSS players because they're super cool dudes, so I don't want to ruffle their feathers, but no one is as good as Salem atm.

Nick Riddle is the closest, but V115 might be better soon if NR doesn't watch it. V115 is the one of the fastest-improving mid-level players I think I've ever seen.

I'd personally put Sakasaka up there pretty close to NR/Salem, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Dark.Pch]

How so? I see plenty of characters putting their money where their mouth is, but I always hear "Pika goes even with MK" then see a losing record in recent history. I'm critical of Peach in the same way.

The difference is, ESAM as a player is top Level. He is equally skilled as Top level MK player. Now going with his character, he knows how to handle MK well as Pika. As in he what he can and can't do. And when. And his record vs MK, shows Pika is not even with him.

I said before skills matter. I also said what it takes to really see how a match up goes. ESAM vs top MKs qualifies for that. For Peach, there is not one Player in the USA that is on equal skill level as a PLAYER as top players for said character. And that matters alot wether you wanna believe it or not. And with a character like Peach, You best off not even touching the character. I'm currentely making a new version of my Peach guide. Now read this part very carefully if you want:

"Peach is a character with many tools to help her in battles. She has the most advance techs in the game. And is a very technical character. She is very challenging to play and takes alot of work. At beginner/mid level play, she is easy to punish and can't get away with alot of things as other characters would for just playing simple (even characters worst then her). You will be forced to think ALOT if you don't want to get punished so easily. Higher levels of play, is much more work to be done. Her weakness can be exposed pretty hard where it feels impossible to even place well with her in tournaments or just beat anyone good. In short, you can NOT be lazy. You can't always wanna just do floating moves. You must learn and know when you can and can't do these things.

Peach requires ALOT of patients in many things. If you don't like waiting alot and always wanna go in attacking, Peach is not a character for you to use at all. You will be getting beat alot for alot of simple and stupid stuff. You will be put in bad positions which can lead to alot of damage or cost of a stock that you could have easily avoided. So if you can't handle this and don't wanna wait alot work hard for your wins, look away from this guide now and go play another character. complaining that this character can't kill and etc is doing nothing for you. Peach has a way to deal with these problems. just don't expect some of them (if not all of them) to be dealt quickly in a match. This goes for killing, approaching, recovery, defending. Moves are not fast for you to rush in when you please for you will get punished or put yourself in unsafe situations.

So once again, if you are gonna sit here and cry about this character. Always want to attack (even when recovering with the typical dair/fair), always wanna float to air moves. Character aint for you. Don't wanna suffer many loses to get better (even at mid level where people just do simple stuff), Character is not for you. Gonna complain how bad she is when you dont learn all your options and utilized them to a full extent, don't blame the character, blame yourself. You are not the type of person to play someone like her. Look away from this guide and go play a over used high tier character to get those rewards and pleasure with less effort so you can feel good about yourself.


If this is not you and ready to learn and suffer many loses now so you can win later, then continue reading and lets get started."

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Dark.Pch I admire your talent to take any offhand comment about your character and turn into a reason to write (or, in this case, copy/paste) a wall of text about Peach.

Kudos to you, I wish I had the ability to do that. Not about Peach obviously, that character. I'm mean I wish I had the ability to do it with Jigglypuff.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If you are trying to be sarcastic and funny, Im not amused. Though im sure someone with give you a chartity "lol" or like the to make you think you are. Most people in here just wanna joke and etc. Hard to tell when anyone is serious or even keep it that way.

If you are serious then forgot all of ^

 

[infiniteV115]

i hoep u liek my chartity

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If you are trying to be sarcastic and funny, Im not amused. Though im sure someone with give you a chartity "lol" or like the to make you think you are. Most people in here just wanna joke and etc. Hard to tell when anyone is serious or even keep it that way.

If you are serious then forgot all of ^

If you don't know whether I'm being serious or not you must have never seen any of my other posts ever.

Which I don't think is possible, since you've replied to other posts of mine.

Anyway, to make it easier for you I was being half serious with my previous post. I do admire your ability to transmit thoughts to writing in such an effective, and long, manner. It's something I've never been able to do, and that I wish I could do.

But idgaf about Peach

i hoep u liek my chartity

ty 4 teh chartity vee

 

[Osennecho]

chartity

chartity

chartity

I almost didn't notice that... Almost.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I almost didn't notice that... Almost.

tbh I only noticed it in V's post, not Dark.Pch's.

 

[infiniteV115]

I stole it from Dark Pch

 

[pidgezero_one]

If I was using my gaming PC and not my laptop, you'd all have a loooooot of long soundcloud moonbase alpha voiceover uploads to listen to, courtesy of Dark.Pch.

 

[Delta-cod]

Snip for space.

Look, I understand that there aren't Peach players that are at the same level as ESAM. What I care about is that, you can't keep saying Peach can do this that and the other thing to deal with all these problems people thinks she has, when nobody can actually do those things to deal with the problem. I don't know enough about Peach to accurately theorycraft all these "solutions" to the problems I think she has. However, I don't really want to read large posts about these "solutions" because nobody's going to do them anyways. If Peach players can apply all the stuff you say she can do, and I commend you for thinking about the character as much as you do and trying to apply these things yourself, I'll want to listen. But as the situation currently is, it's all talk that has NEVER been backed up. And talk is cheap.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't think it's unfair to say that Peach can be played better than her best players play her.

That's the logic Marth's been relying on to stay top tier for 5 years.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I don't think it's unfair to say that Peach can be played better than her best players play her.

That's the logic Marth's been relying on to stay top tier for 5 years.

But Marth players occasionally show that they are capable of what their tier list position indicates.

Like getting 5th and 7th at Apex